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by Ann M. (Site Scryer)
Member since:
January 7, 2008

Losing Your Religion: The Great Turning (October 20, 2009)

October 20, 2009 05:45 PM EDT (Updated: October 26, 2009 01:37 PM EDT)
views: 398 | comments: 378

I heard about The Great Turning, a social transformation predicted by eco-activists, back in the 1990s. Great Turning advocates believe that it's time to move the world from a civilization focused on industrial growth to a more life-sustaining one.  "Sounds great" I thought, "but I won't see it in my lifetime."

Since then, several things have changed.  First, we've realized that the global climate models of the 1990s were too conservative.  Many of the changes they predicted are happening more quickly we thought. Second, we now have a U.S. president who cares about global climate change.

Third, the global financial crisis has shown us first-hand how unregulated markets tend to make a few rich while they shred the livelihood (and lives) of others.  And then there's that pesky problem of an economy structured on continuous growth while our planet contains limited resources.  How, exactly, is that supposed to work?

We humans are wired to deal with emergencies close at hand, but we don't do well with future crises until we can see the effects for ourselves. However, I sense that the global mood has shifted. At long last we can see and feel the damage we've done to our planet and to each other.

Watching the worldwide enthusiasm over Obama's election, the green-clad protesters in Iran, and the giddily anticipatory Nobel Peace Prize awarded to our green-thinking president, I've begun to suspect that The Great Turning is upon us.

In his 2006 book The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community, David Korten warned that we face a perfect storm of converging crises including climate change, energy supply, and financial upheaval. This will cause major changes to our economic and social structure.

These crises present an opportunity for change, says Korten.  His vision of "Earth Community" is based on sustainable, caring scoieties incorporating mutual responsibility and accountability.

A following for the ideas of The Great Turning has developed in some religious communities.  The movement has been active in American Buddhist groups for over a decade, and Unitarian Universalists recently adopted The Great Turning as a focus.  In addition, an organization of evangelical preachers dedicated to "saving God's green earth" was recently formed.

Joanna Macy, who travels the world doing workshops on The Great Turning, says that the change is already upon us. In a nod to the power of religion and myth, she refers to The Great Turning as "the essential adventure of our time."

Says Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hahn:

"If we continue abusing the earth this way, there is no doubt that our civilization will be destroyed... we need a collective enlightenment to stop this course of destruction. Civilization is going to end if we continue to drown in the competition for power, fame, sex, and profit."

Do you think that The Great Turning is upon us?  If so, how are you seeing it manifested?  How do you plan to participate?

For more information: David Korten's Great Turning Web Site, Joanna Macy's Great Turning Web Site.

This is a moderated forum.  The rules are simple-- listen to each others' points of view and try to understand them, no matter how different from your own.  Avoid ad hominem attacks.  Share your beliefs but don't preach or attempt to convert another to your religious or spiritual viewpoint. Click here for more details on the rules of engagement.

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Comments: 378

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 5:49pm EDT
Link to the previous episode.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:18pm EDT
First time commenters are always welcome! Send me a friend request.
Frank Luke Oct 21, 2009, 2:22pm EDT
Dano, re: "Isn't this disparaging of a person, as a person, questioning their intellect, dehumanizing, and unworthy of civilized debate? I think it is."

In the way that I do denigrate people who seem recalcitrant students who seem lazy and not accepting the responsibility of becoming educated, I believe sheeple are those who relegate the important job of the advancing of their spirituality to others. For believers who accept dogma and doctrine unquestioningly, I feel uneasy about their critical perspicacity.
Frank Luke Oct 21, 2009, 2:39pm EDT
Jerry and Bent, re: I appreciate your interest in it and your repeated asking for a sense of"confirmation" sought in your own case (or so it seems to me) and what you just received above from Bent is about as good a definition as I have seen lately.

Jerry: I don't feel I seek confirmation though affirmation always is welcome
in seeing others seem to agree with something I've come to believe.

In your comments re: Enlightened Beings, even in what I understand the Dalai Lama is reported to have said, I feel my contention still remains--that there are no extant Enlightened Beings but only people who experience the Awakening Moment which brings them to the realization of the truth of the Perennial Wisdom and proceed in a transformed way the rest of their days.

I did hear Matti Stepanek, a child speaking on NPR yesterday on the Humankind program talking about his book and if there are Enlightened Beings, I'd say he is one judging from the impressive way he spoke and how he comes across. Though he appears a convincingly Enlightened Being, he is still only a child and has a lifetime yet to live. Until a life is ended, I believe there is still a possibilty of there arising doubt about the trueness of a being's Enlightenment, which would require perfection, no?

Comments?
Jerry Kays Oct 21, 2009, 3:51pm EDT
Frank, the answer is NO ... in that the common view of "perfection" holds it out as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, meaning always just out of reach, held only by GOD as none other could ever acheive such on their own during life ... except those of course who get the "title" from public aclaim ... as Jesus is said to have after 2,000 years of promotion ... but still out of reach by us lowly "sinners" (according to world "authorities") ...

Point being ... look it up please ... "perfect" can be as one is who is whole and performing withIn the design intended ... man who has become truly "Enlightened" is as perfect as needs be for this earth time and place ... then he becomes a teacher attempting to help others break out of the box of orthodoxy acribed to by the sheeple and their leaders, to be as Jesus was, as the Bhudda was, and so many others REALLY WERE other than centuries of fabricated stories making them out to be something more special than they were ... and making the relative few of us that may be getting close to such a condition seem like false impostors based upon the un-realistic view of what most want to think "perfection" means.
Frank Luke Oct 22, 2009, 3:07pm EDT
Jerry, re: Perfection, being Enlightened

When Enlightenment is being considered, I wonder if they allow wiggle-room? It seems to me that the Buddhist concept is more rigourous or less making allowances, the person would be a Buddha. I contend that on earth there probably aren't these totally evolved beings, ony those who've been Awakened and advancing toward perhaps a full-blown Enlightenment, maybe after much homework done through many reincarnations, but what do I know?
Jerry Kays Oct 23, 2009, 5:32am EDT
It means that you recently answered a question from Frank about Enlightenment, probably on the end of the previous thread/article/post ... too late for me now, too tired to look it up ...
libramoon C. Oct 20, 2009, 5:57pm EDT
http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/essay
THE FUTURE AND BEYOND
By Jacque Fresco
ben S. Oct 20, 2009, 6:12pm EDT
I shall always love my apparent enemies and always forgive those who do wrong against me. I shall be a loyal friend to all who want my friendship and always be upfront and honest with them. I shall always welcome laughter and wish others joy!

Wish me victory in these endeavors, for they are close to my heart!

I wish all of you every victory in matters of the heart and mind!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:17pm EDT
What about Gaia, Ben?
ben S. Oct 20, 2009, 6:30pm EDT
When the Spirit comes first in all things, all is well with Gaia...
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 7:58am EDT
(Are we meant only to be prison inmates, picking up litter off the shoulder of a highway?)
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 10:05am EDT
Could you clarify that, Ben?
Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Oct 21, 2009, 10:06am EDT
The statement made by Ben that: "When the Spirit comes first in all things, all is well with Gaia" is absolutely true in my opinion. I like Korten and his ideas. I also like Joanna Macey. However, I do not ever see the things of which they speak taking place in full or even close to it. David sees himself as an engaged citizen. Joann sees herself as an engaged Buddhist. Their are too many Americans who are not engaged and who do not even understand the concept. It might infringe upon their perception of freedom. The ideas here will be seen by many as Utopian and will be branded as such and shunned. They will also be seen as anti Christ by a very large and unengaged segment of society here in the USA ... IMNSHO. The first thing that we must each do as citizens of earth is make an effort to actually become engaged and give of our own unique and abundant gifts back to earth. I am afraid that I am very skeptical of the future.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 11:04am EDT
You don't think that rising sea levels, stronger storms, and many deaths will scare people into seeing the truth?
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 12:50pm EDT
Ann, if we as individuals remain prisoners of Maya, any project of "cleaning up the planet" will remain a delusion. It will be superficial and ineffective because we will lack true Wisdom.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 12:54pm EDT
Ben, you need to be more specific. I'm an ecologist and my husband does climate modeling. How will delusion affect our work to save Gaia?
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 1:00pm EDT
Yes, Ann, a crisis is necessary at this point, but it will be more of a crisis of the heart than of the earth.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:04pm EDT
I agree that hearts need to change for The Great Turning to happen, and I think they are. What will constitute the "crisis of the heart" you anticipate?
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 1:16pm EDT
If we can not learn how to save our sanity first, how can we effectively save the planet? A sick or languishing mind and heart are not effective tools for a project so ambitious, no matter how seemingly urgent.

What you and your husband do, may certainly help your quality of life locally, but the world at large has other priorities. While you are "saving" your portion of the planet, other people are fighting for their very existence, for example.

Until we fix human relations, saving the planet may have to be on the back burner for awhile.

Any crisis will certainly help motivate us, but in what direction without true Wisdom?
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 1:26pm EDT
The "great turning" will be manifested as a conversion of heart.

This will be in the spiritual sense, no particular religious denomination.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 1:40pm EDT
The "crisis of the heart" will mainfest itself in each individual and will cause immense suffering for a time. Each of us will then be motivated into living differently. This "living differently" has nothing to do with starting a recycling project or the like. It has to do with a daily devotion to things that last.

What affect upon the human environment do you think such qualities as contentment, faith, patience, sincerity, kindness, and , forgiveness, would have? Would a new human environment solve the crisis we now have?
Would not the earth itself benefit if we had these qualities?

All that remains to be done, is for individuals to discover how to attain for themselves, to the benefit of all, these qualities...
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:56pm EDT
I agree with most of what you say, Ben.

However, I disagree with this: "Until we fix human relations, saving the planet may have to be on the back burner for awhile."

I believe we've reached a tipping point of climate change, as evidenced by the fact that changes are happening more rapidly than the older climate models predicted. If we put the planet on "the back burner" (which Bush did for 8 years), it may well become uninhabitable.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 2:19pm EDT
Yes, Ann, a crisis may be at hand, but as said below in an earlier comment, what are we really willing to sacrifice in order to achieve this goal?

If most of us lack the will-power to change our own interpersonal behavior, how can anyone believe we can really stop "harming" the earth?

I tell you, both are mirror images of one another!
Frank Luke Oct 21, 2009, 3:08pm EDT
Hiya Liz, re: "I am afraid that I am very skeptical of the future."

Oh, for the good old recent past when there didn't seem there was the Damocles sword that seems to be hanging over us all these days. On bad news days, I can get to feeling less able to muster hopefulness that I try to maintain. On one hand I believe humankind as a collective has the collective smarts to find a way out of the mess we've wrought. Am I too-frequent a listener of that hopeful source of suggestions for all our problems, NPR? But I do most strongly affirm what you say that we each and all must chip in, those who are inclined toward more than bitching and worrying and put our spirituality to work in whatever way(s) we can manifest.

When I've heard one of the inspiring and eminently applicable solutions, really great ideas they continuously report on, I send emails to all the movers and shakers and anyone I can think of who might be able to run with the ideas and act upon them. I hope some of my efforts will find receptive ground but I realize most are so preoccupied and pre-empted and can easily not heed email. But I persist in my believing that hope is preferable to gloom and that enlightened self-interest will bring more and more people to put their spirituality into positive action to help shape a better world.

Bless you, dear Liz. I know you are doing your part in helping to better what's happening. Aloha,

Frank Luke Oct 21, 2009, 3:18pm EDT
Hello Ben, re: "a crisis may be at hand, but as said below in an earlier comment, what are we really willing to sacrifice in order to achieve this goal?"

I hope this is not a rhetorical question and that you personally are involved in positive actions that are addressing the crisis that we have created re: the environment for one and the economic downturn for another. Being as conscious of our own consuming and spending habits, leaving as light a carbon footprint as possible, cutting back on the kind of consumption of oil and electrical energy as possible, bringing your spirituality to bear on these very mundane and practical concerns as much as possible is something we must all take to heart and pitch in to the effort to save our planet and ourselves.

Best regards, Aloha,


ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 3:57pm EDT
Everything I earn in material wealth, I give away. My God provides everything for me. I own no property of any kind.

I live in a simplicity which would boggle most minds on this thread.

But I live heaven. If that is not "green" enough for anyone here, so be it.
Jerry Kays Oct 21, 2009, 4:16pm EDT
I am with ben all the way ... except for the last part about giving all away and having nothing ... I do my part with discretion about what I buy and do with my time ... buying little and writing here on Gather to promote my concept ... which I personally believe could be the answer to all of the worlds problems, just a subtle switch in our thinking away from duality (+/-).

Prophecy and other warnings are just that, warnings from higher realms to get our attention how ever it takes to change our ways before it is too late for us ... change is upon us and the rate of change is becoming exponential ... if we do not arrest it soon and turn it around, it may soon be way to late.

But GOD (yes there is that concept at least) helps those who help themselves ... I suggest that all seek that GOD INternally ... external seeking will never give you the best for you, only your own Soul knows what you need in relationship to all else.


BTW ... about the "Great Turning", Marilyn Ferguson wrote abook many years ago when it was first becoming noticed, it is called the "Aquarian Conspiriacy" ... I highly recommend it to all who are not yet aware of what is really taking place.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 4:26pm EDT
Sometimes it is well to remember that all of us are only borrowing whatever we think we possess in worldly goods.

Having "nothing" is not how I would describe myself. Indeed, I have everything I truly need...
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 4:30pm EDT
The giving up of material wealth is NOT necessary for all.

For many, it is just a matter of changing the way we treat ourselves and others.
Jerry Kays Oct 21, 2009, 5:51pm EDT
I agree ben, and I do not agree with the old saying of "no pain no gain" ... because much of pain is but a state of mind which can be freely changed with much gain arising therefrom ... I guess it depends upon what a person thinks they want and need ... I didn't find it in the offerings of the external and materialized world, so turned withIN for it ... it has cost me nothing except for the misunderstanding of others yet to change.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 8:43pm EDT
Pain is for the purpose of insight. Insight leads to the end of all suffering.

A true sacrifice is done through love, not fear nor guilt.

Yes, the Life within is the only thing that really counts and lasts, my friend!
And it certainly improves the outer one!
Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Oct 21, 2009, 9:25pm EDT
Ann … I think that those things will influence those whom you would expect to listen and respond appropriately. But there is that extreme right wing element that has no use for science and some of who wish to bring about the end of the world ASAP. They are quite vocal and loudly so. We … you and I do not speak the same language as they speak. There are many who may or may not be quite so religiously right who believe that [scientific evidence] is just a big hoax, a political ploy, an issue of business as usual, another way to make a buck. They too will not be convinced. I will say this, there is a Christian contingent that is vocal and that is becoming more and more attuned to their responsibility as Christians to the welfare of this earth. They do give me hope and they may well influence others through what they see as their stewardship.

Frank … thanks ever so much. I hope that you are right. This has been a tough day what with news like …. 4 of Mexico’s major drug cartels [organized crime] have set their headquarters in Atlanta and are responsible for 70% of drugs sold in the USA …………… then more news that my dearest friend here woke to the news that her 28 year old son had committed suicide have truly worn upon me today. Actually … I anticipate that each person here more than likely does his/her part to live more “greenly.” You are right my friend, indeed I do. Again thank you.

Ben
you are a wonder and an inspiration. If we each do our part … we cannot compare one to another for we are each vastly different with different gifts to give. I also think that as one grows older one wishes to divest themselves of "stuff." I surely did not feel that way when youthful.

Jerry ... I have always been relatively materialistic. But! Everything has always passed through my hands to others. Although I have always liked things ... I have eqally enjoyed giving them away. ;)
Georgiana S. Oct 21, 2009, 9:48pm EDT
If you don't save the planet first, ben, you won't have any reason for your personal existence.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 11:09pm EDT
And what kind of existence on this earth will we have if our souls are "dead?"

My personal existence takes my present form, but my spiritual existense takes many forms, not just this one on earth.

One day, the earth (body) shall be gone. And it will not be the doing of any human being. Then where will we go?

May your heart be filled with joy!
Jerry Kays Oct 22, 2009, 4:52am EDT
God lets the kids trash the house because he can ? Maybe it is the learning process of self responsibility associated with free will granted by GOD (I am not so sure about God) ... point being, he has many "mansions" with many rooms ... each to receive their just reward according to how they act here ... in other words, this is not the only house, and some may even be worse ... I wouldn't want be judged a "trasher" later on. :-)
Frank Luke Oct 25, 2009, 1:46pm EDT
Liz, re: "4 of Mexico’s major drug cartels [organized crime] have set their headquarters in Atlanta and are responsible for 70% of drugs sold in the USA"

Subsequent to that report comes the news of a whole bunch of arrests of people in the US involved in trafficking so keep the faith, baby. What's so disheartening is that there's the ongoing US addiction and demand for the drugs and Mexicans, et al, are supplying that demand. What can we expect from an impoverished population that seems to find it easy to thumb their collective noses at the law? It really makes me feel legalization with strict demand for rehab or jail as part of the deal. Kid violators will be commanded to do heavy duty community service. What do you think?

Have a peaceful Sunday. I send you rays of Hawaiian sunshine to light up the landscape and your soul. Aloha,
Shira C. Oct 20, 2009, 6:14pm EDT
This is a fascinating topic, Ann. (I hope by predicting it, you haven't jinxed us, lol.) Another good book on the same subject is The Power of Less by Leo Babauta.

I do believe that we (especially in America, but also in other First World nations) have taken a wrong turn, pursuing growth literally at any cost. This view is definitely consonant with Buddhism, which views the pursuit of more than we need with great suspicion. But also, as a Buddhist, I believe it is possible at every moment to see our errors and begin to correct them.

I hope that we will learn the lesson that more is no longer necessarily better. I hope we will learn it soon, because each delay adds not only to our suffering, but to that of our children and of the non-human world as well.


Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:19pm EDT
"More is better" seems to be the motto of the U.S. I wonder if it's the same in all industrialized countries?
Shira C. Oct 20, 2009, 6:34pm EDT
Yes, but I think not to the same extent. I deal with Japanese people pretty often. They put value on personal restraint, which is not something Americans seem to care about. Europeans also seem to feel the community (in the form of the nation) puts obligations on the individual to a greater extent than we do.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:36pm EDT
In Asia, it seems that societal rights come before individual rights. Here, that's nearly reversed.
Shira C. Oct 20, 2009, 6:45pm EDT
Not to stir up controversy, but I think it may have something to do with the difference between Buddhism and Christianity (which have, of course, many similarities.) Christianity, at root, is, or can be, about "how do *I* get saved." Buddhism's most popular versions have suggested that personal enlightenment will make you want to save the whole world.

Or maybe that's not the reason. But to give you an idea of the difference, consider two poems about what it is to be an ideal man (yeah, man. These aren't new poems.) For the Western version, I offer Rudyard Kipling's If. For the Japanese, I offer Kenji Miyazawa's Ame ni mo makazu, which you can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ame_ni_mo_Makezu

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:48pm EDT
Here's a live link to Miyazawa's poem.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:49pm EDT
Here's a live link to If by Rudyard Kipling. I had to memorize this in grade school!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:53pm EDT
That's an apt comparison, Shira. Miyazawa's poem is very Taoist, placing emphasis on remaining humble and modest, while Kipling's poem talks about "winnings" and promises the world to the young listener.
Jerry Kays Oct 21, 2009, 4:29pm EDT
Before I go and read the recommended poems, I will say that the Japanese view stems from years of history where their highest authority (until the War ended) was their Emperor who was considered divine ... if there ever was a large race that was so brainwashed I do not know of it ... except for in the "other" direction, Americans ... going the opposite way.

What is need is a compromise, a middle way, the way of divine spirit interconnecting all ... not some lessor views making certain groups have specialness at the expense of others ... as in religion against religion and or sect against sect ... etc.

A One World view is one that would be wonderful providing the leaders and the peoples were all on the same spiritual page ... otherwise it will be just more of the same ... or worse. We do not need any more of the Blind leading the blind ... If the Leaders can "See", then no problem, if the people can "See" they need not leaders ... or at least they will be wise enough to trust only the "good" ones.
Jerry Kays Oct 21, 2009, 4:35pm EDT
PS ... having now read the poems ... the last may be speaking of what I earlier called the "perfect" Man.
Aniko   Oct 23, 2009, 12:17am EDT
It's two poems by two very different poets, and indeed from two different cultures from two different poetic traditions. The Japanese poem, to "Western" ears, sounds "old"--mythical, like ancient writings. (I admit some of that might be due to language--when translated literally, any foreign language sounds more mythical and metaphorical than our own, whose metaphors we take for granted.)

The English poem is from a more straightforward, more pragmatic, and perhaps more cynical age/world.

Both manage to forge a personal ethic, but I find more specific advice, and more to think about, in Kipling's poem than in Miyazawa's, which gives me an orientation more than details.

That said, if we want to know things about the cultures themselves, we should probably take a wider view. (For example, while I like both of those cultures a great deal, if I had to choose between being a prisoner of war during WWII of the Japanese vs. the British, I know which one I would choose...)

Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 6:16pm EDT
Hello,

This is a wonderful opening to an exciting topic.

Something I came across the other day in the Huffington Post, which they are participating in, the No Impact Project is designed to encourage others as a medium of participatory education for the general public; a hands on experience of consciously minimizing personal environmental impact for one week.
I think changing habits takes doing it, incrementally a step at a time. This will be an interesting bit to follow and an indicator of momentum gaining.
I shared a little of our lifestyle choices and hope to see others experiences.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:21pm EDT
Thanks, Ade! If this movement catches on (and I believe it has), the amount of change should start to increase exponentially.
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 6:23pm EDT
This is a good peek at what's happening at The Huffington Post in Green regard.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 7:41pm EDT
Thanks, Ade. I didn't know that HuffPo has a green section.
Jerry Kays Oct 21, 2009, 4:46pm EDT
Congrats to Adrian and her family ... living as many of us would want to at least try ... to much "work" for many I suspect ...


I think it is great what the Huffington Post has attempted to do for all of humanity on an ongoing basis ... the problem is that many who need the messages the most, have been brainwashed by FOX type sources that it should be ignored at best because it is "of the enemy" (as in all at all to the Left of Right)
Aniko   Oct 23, 2009, 2:40am EDT
What a great post, Ade. I started commenting there, but chickened out. So I'll say it here instead: you forgot to say what bright and talented young adults those children are. :-)
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 6:16pm EDT
Thanks for the link, Libra.

"Establishing the parameters of this new civilization will require transcending many of the traditions, values, and methods of the past... Throughout the history of civilization [a] few national leaders or politicians have... proposed a comprehensive plan to improve the lives of all people under their jurisdiction...

Arrayed against these social pioneers was a formidable status quo composed of vested interests that were comfortable with the way things were, and a populace at large that, out of years of indoctrination and conditioning, wanted no radical changes."


The only thing that's different now is that we have to change if we want to avoid destroying our planet.
The original comment in this thread has been deleted by its author.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 7:43pm EDT
I agree. Humans don't do anything in unity unless we have a common enemy, and global climate change has taken on the face of that enemy.
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 9:51pm EDT
That's interesting...the notion of exterior-izing our own degraded spawn; that which we have un-wittingly and knowingly allowed unfettered growth. Like absentee family members, foisting off the care of our kin; our now sadly dis-shelved lesser kin; our polluted air and water particularly; those elements most essential, that we can't survive without.
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 10:00pm EDT
...and to restore and repair, reinvigorate/ spare, only requires, our doing so. Our passion to do so. An invitation to each other to do so; because it's caring about the 'heart disease' of Life on Earth; manageable if not fully repairable.

Our Earth being in danger is not some esoteric or poetical/theoretical - metaphorical notion. It's real.
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 10:11pm EDT
Science sings and spirituality adds things; a whole army of the devil's disciples ... those of us who'll turn when we loose our citizenship and entitlement to occupation here.

We can't get at the enemy; for she/he - is us.

Forgive my theatrics, I'm on a roll.
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 10:53pm EDT
...when we loose or lose, irregardless. It'll be a loss. recorded in the strata.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:10am EDT
Sounds like a poem in the birthing, Ade.
libramoon C. Oct 20, 2009, 7:22pm EDT
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977572117
prologue
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 20, 2009, 7:44pm EDT
Libra, I love that poem, as I said in your comments section.
Kushal Poddar Oct 20, 2009, 10:06pm EDT
Ann, is not it interesting fact that there is a concept of doomsday in every possible religions or rather in old scriptures?
Hindu religion has a god on a horseback and with a flaming sword. Anyway, there is the concept of a great flood too.


ruby love and red pearls
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:07am EDT
The Eastern-tradition doomsdays seem to lead to renewal and the beginning of a new cycle. I don't think this is true for the doomsdays predicted in most Western traditions.
Jerry Kays Oct 21, 2009, 4:58pm EDT
The difference between the Eastern traditions and the Western, is the fact that the Eastern has an eternity concept where you can always "come back" (reincarnate) to get it better eventually ...

The Western church authorities wanted to "speed things up", so they invented a "once around" concept where you followed them into heaven or went to hell ... those being the ONLY choices proposed ... naturally that message, not registering in the subconscious of most as a "resonating truth" did not have enough admirers or followers to allow it to work ... had we all believed, it's hard to say what things would have turned out like ... somehow I'm glad not more believed.
''The One & Only BERF" .. Oct 20, 2009, 10:14pm EDT
Hey, Ann.........

Just wanted to let you know, there's an e-book preview of the book at THIS LINK...
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 10:47pm EDT
Sounds, as stated, like a must read.

And when the covers of the book are closed or the conversation ends...? Or becomes passe...? In the forty years of intent ecological exploration, the 'modernized' nations of the world have made tiny incremental gains on awareness and active participation; moving repair and preservation of the environment forward.
But that has to remain a deeply entrenched social value, world wide. That the good health of our environment has to surpass popularity and the timed test of social awareness.
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 20, 2009, 10:50pm EDT
...should 'intent' read 'intense'... or focused. Or aware; awakening? The Great Turning?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:01am EDT
"And when the covers of the book are closed or the conversation ends...? Or becomes passe...?"

That can't happen, Ade. We'll render the earth uninhabitable, at least for humans.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:05am EDT
Wow, thanks, Berf! I had no idea there was an electronic version of Korten's book.
Georgiana S. Oct 21, 2009, 12:08am EDT
We are in the midst of the shift. Natural selection will have everything coming round to what is right, eventually.
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 21, 2009, 12:14am EDT
The Great Pendulum? Mechanistic or just good taste?
Adrian Eve Revenaugh Oct 21, 2009, 12:28am EDT
God, I still love this place! Thanks Ann and Bill... each and all!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:03am EDT
"Natural selection will have everything coming round to what is right, eventually."

There's truth to that, Georgiana. Natural selection has designed us so that we tend to not face danger until it's upon us. And danger is undeniably here, for all of us to face.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:04am EDT
Thank you, Adrian. I believe your family has been living according to "The Great Turning" for years now!
Shira C. Oct 21, 2009, 1:28pm EDT
The problem with letting natural selection take care of things is, natural selection is completely indifferent to suffering, human or otherwise. It is a solution, but not an optimal one.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:58pm EDT
Yes. Mitigating global climate change, even if this is against our instincts, is a much more humane solution.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 2:03pm EDT
Shira, it may be the only solution if we continue to cause our own suffering!
Georgiana S. Oct 21, 2009, 9:58pm EDT
I meant Natural Selection as in evolution. The defenders of the planet will survive the shift to be able to care for Gaia, while those who plunder and spoil will fall away.
They will not heed warnings for themselves nor thair planet and shall fade away. not getting vaccinations or heeding food warnings, their lot will fail while the enlightened will thrive.
Shira C. Oct 21, 2009, 10:35pm EDT
Georgiana, I hate to tell ya... natural selection doesn't work quite that way.
Georgiana S. Oct 21, 2009, 10:50pm EDT
survival of the fittest (with compassion!)
Georgiana S. Oct 21, 2009, 10:53pm EDT
I know, it isn't, that over time certain traits flourish whilst other fall away. But with dietary mistakes and pollution, it will either form a super race of carriers and unhealthy trogledytes, or they will die off from not adapting to new diseases and maladies and the strong will survive.
Shira C. Oct 22, 2009, 9:48am EDT
Thing is, natural selection doesn't work on one species or one individual or one trait at a time. Not only are we under selective pressure as we change the environment, so is every other species on earth, right down to the bacteria (which actually run the place.) We're at the top of the food chain, always a precarious slot. It's a bit like, in a million dice throws, we need half to come up six. Bad odds. There's a timescale problem, too, because species with long generation times evolve rather slowly, but the changes we are making demand pretty quick adaptation. (Biological) natural selection simply does not favor us. (I'm not an expert, so I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.)

Cultural evolution offers some hope for our survival, but I gotta say, maybe not enough. I also doubt that, if natural selection "decides" to prune us without killing us, the enlightened will end up out-reproducing the brutish. Generally speaking, enlightened behavior is a lot more common under conditions of plenty than of want.



Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 22, 2009, 10:07am EDT
I don't think that humans are, generally speaking, under much pressure from natural selection, because we've altered the environment to suit ourselves. Global climate change could alter that, though.
Larry M. Oct 22, 2009, 10:15am EDT
The pressure to solve some particular environmental problem is not there but because we are able to keep alive such a high proportion of babies and because we can provide so much assistance to fecundity limited people, the diversity of our species genetic material is increasing. Naturally this is a good thing from a species survival point of view. But it means that we are even more dependent on our technology for survival. If we lose the technology, a high proportion of women will die in childbirth, a high proportion of babies will die in the first year, and such.
Shira C. Oct 22, 2009, 3:22pm EDT
Well Ann, you are the expert, but I have two questions for you (and I hope this doesn't go beyond the scope of this discussion.)

1. Isn't it likely that physical selection pressure is bled off by cultural evolution, which gives us various adaptive tools? If so, that mechanism may be breaking down somewhat under its own selection pressure. I'd point to the acceleration of language extinction as a good indicator of selection pressure on the cultural level.

2. Is it possible that physical selection pressure is less apparent from our viewpoint in a society with good medical care, the means to clean up the air and water, and a relatively slow rate of growth? (This is in line with Larry's point as well.) Most of the damage from pollution seems to fall on the poorest people and regions of the world -- which are precisely where you see the highest birth rates and the highest infant / child mortality rates as well. So, to condense this question, is it possible we are essentially exporting selection pressure?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 22, 2009, 3:59pm EDT
Yes to most of what you've said-- you'd make a fine evolutionary biologist.

I agree that most humans are under more cultural selection pressure than natural selection pressure, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say that cultural selection is "breaking down somewhat under its own selection pressure."
Shira C. Oct 22, 2009, 5:22pm EDT
Well, having lots of variation seems like a safer bet than having a monoculture -- more chance that some particular subset of variations will slip past the scythe of natural selection... if you see what I mean. And it seems to me that cultural variation is decreasing, as language extinction attests. Does that make sense? I'm kind of thinking out loud here.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 23, 2009, 9:57am EDT
Having a lot of genetic variation is considered an evolutionary advantage. When environmental conditions change, this means it is more likely that there will be some individuals in the population that are adapted to the new conditions.

As far as cultural variation decreasing-- I think that question is better answered by Bent, who's studied anthropology.

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 24, 2009, 9:39am EDT
Wonderful lecture, Bent-- thank you!

I should probably add that the genetic variation of other species is important to preserve, if for nothing else as a future source of food and medicine. Would you consider the genetic variation of endemic animals and plants part of the cultural variation/heritage of indigenous human societies?

Aniko   Oct 24, 2009, 4:44pm EDT
That's an interesting question, Shira. I'm not sure biological evolution is such a perfect analogy for cultural evolution, though. We know why having a large gene pool is good for a species--there is what to "choose" from when new circumstances arise, and genes cannot be manufactured by our thoughts or desires. We can’t make them from scratch. But—at least to some extent, since we are limited by basic human nature as expressed in our genes—we can “make” our cultural attitudes.

I am ambivalent (you might even say conflicted) about the cultures and languages that are being lost. While I hate to see the rich heritage of a culture—the music and the stories, the dances and the dresses, and certainly the unique features of the languages—disappear (or become nothing but lifeless academic descriptions), such traditional cultures unfortunately tend to exhibit many of the same features we have struggled with in our own, now somewhat “globalized” western cultures (sexism, ethnocentrism, tribalism, nepotism, fossilized social hierarchy, etc), and in many cases they have transcended them to a lesser extent than we have. The ideal situation is when people preserve the valuable aspects of their traditional culture while they enter "modernity" on such ethical issues, but it doesn't seem to be easy for very small cultures to do this.

A positive aspect of our “globalizing” culture is that we increasingly consider all other humans in the “we” category, while traditional cultures are heavy on the “we and them” distinction; and, arguably, the exuberant uniqueness of local cultures helps to keep that distinction sharp and harder to cross. It's a great irony of history that the expansion of a culture’s “territory of interest”—whether by conquest and empire building or by travel and trade—invariably makes that culture more open and tolerant with time. We need that sense of connectedness if we are to solve our global problems, but one of the things that the solution seems to call for is a reduction in long-range travel and trade. We’re in a bit of a Catch-22 in that respect.

(I’m spiraling into “no solution” pessimism again, so I’ll stop here…)
David S. Oct 21, 2009, 12:57am EDT
Wow, it's so hard to turn. My heart has turned personally, but I still manage to purchase items that violate the turning either by their price (and subsequent exploitation of resources and people), their packaging, or their very nature. It's SO HARD to avoid it! Help!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 1:08am EDT
David, it sounds like you're way ahead of most of us. Does your religious tradition offer any wisdom or insight into this topic?
Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Oct 21, 2009, 9:34pm EDT
David ......... I so agree with what you have said. I use cloth napkins at the table and rags for cleaning. I ask myself is it worse to chop down a tree and use paper towels or use cloth rags and have to use water and eco-friendly soap each time that I must wash them. I recycle almost everything ....... sometimes sitting in the bathroom I become annoyed and say to myself, "screw it, I am sick of tearing apart the cardboard roller within the TP and recycling it." Then there is the question of child labor. I do believe that each person contribution will be very different. People who are concerned will do what they perceive to be right, I believe.
Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Oct 22, 2009, 9:10am EDT
Ah ... yes, the plastic bags and paper. Thanks Alex, I use baskets to go to the store and reusable "like tupper ware' stuff at home. Of course the store does not.
Larry M. Oct 22, 2009, 10:20am EDT
Actually, all hydrocarbons can be converted to oil with heat and pressure. We can continue to use lots of oil without using any fossil fuels at all. There are plenty of hydrocarbons above ground to recycle. Visit your local dump or farms (or sewage processing plant) to see what I mean. Of course that would eliminate the need for further exploitation of fossil fuels, reduce pollution, end dependence on foreign sources of oil, empty our garbage dumps, and provide lots of good fertilizer and recyclable metals so we probably won't do that but we could.
Aniko   Oct 21, 2009, 3:21am EDT
Great topic, Ann. I can see why you say "giddily anticipatory" (love that phrase), and I hope it means the kind of critical mass of opinion that will be necessary for a change.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 10:07am EDT
Me too. As I've said elsewhere, we humans finally have a 'foe" we can unite against, so maybe we'll behave as a single tribe for once.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 21, 2009, 8:20am EDT
I agree with Bent that the "great turning" has been going on for some time but has of late...gained momentum. It's too bad that the increased inertia has been at the demand of our planet...but it is the survival of Gaia that is critical....not the survival of man. We are the takers and we have taken more that our planet can provide if it is to remain a self-regulating living system (Gaia).

Lovelock's Gaia Theory has gained increased support as the conditional boundaries of man's relationship with his planet have been tested. We must, in my opinion, cooperate with Gaia...rather than try to control her. In order to cooperate with Gaia...we must understand her. This is the challenge.

I have offered Dorion Sagan's book "Notes from the Holocene" before...this book is "a heterogeneous hymn in the key of Gaia". (Bruce Clarke)

But for an abbreviated description of the Gaia Hypothesis...Wikipedia does a very good job. HERE

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 10:07am EDT
Thank you, Slim.
Frank Luke Oct 21, 2009, 3:33pm EDT
I do subscribe to Gaia shown by geologic evidence and we know there have been Ice Ages and then earth's heating up again. The problem is that Gaia's shifts and adjustments to more temperate conditions may not happen in our lifetimes or even for generations.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 3:37pm EDT
The problem with global climate change is not so much "intemperate conditions" as wildly unpredictable conditions.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 21, 2009, 3:54pm EDT
But the question with global climate change is twofold...are we having an impact on climate and if we are...what, if anything, can be done about it.

Frank: ..." the earth's heating up again....."

"Since life started on Earth, the energy provided by the Sun has increased by 25% to 30%; however the surface temperature of the planet has remained remarkably constant when measured on a global scale." HERE

Our sun is expanding...the energy sent to Earth is increasing and yet, we have had remarkably stable temperatures...stable enough to sustain life on Earth. If we were "heating up" in proportion to the increased energy output of the sun...we would no longer exist.
Larry M. Oct 22, 2009, 10:22am EDT
The question is whether we are going to take control of our environment or be a victim of our environment. That environment will change over time whether we like it or not unless we do something to control it. I don't think we will like the consequences of any change whether warmer or colder.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 22, 2009, 8:10pm EDT
Thanks Bent...I watched all four of the video series and I learned a great deal. One of the factors that was not mentioned...and there were several important considerations that were not mentioned...was the effect of warming waters and algae growth which accelerates in warm waters. Algae absorbs CO2 and in exchange emits oxygen...a factor that could help regulate the Earth's temperatures. But...if the global warming melts enough polar ice, the Gulf Stream could shut down..which happened about 12,000 years (the Younger Dryas Event) ago and resulted in a cooling trend that lasted about 70 years.

Many other factors were not considered in the videos which dealt almost exclusively on the greenhouse gas effects of temperature fluctuations.

My position is that we don't understand enough about the thousands of contributing factors that affect our Earth's temperatures to make accurate predictions about future temperatures. I'm curious about the effect of warmer waters and ice build up in Antarctica.
"When surface temperature increases, the upper ocean warms and ice growth decreases. This leads to a decrease in salt rejection from new ice. The salinity of the upper ocean falls. Lower salinity and warmer water results in lower water density in the upper ocean. With fresher, less dense upper water, there is now increased stratification of ocean layers which weakens convective overturning. Less ocean heat is transported upwards. This leads to a decrease in ice melting from ocean heat. Hence we observe an increase in net ice production - sea ice increases."

I guess I'm just short on the facts...and I think that the scientists are also. The Earth has experienced similar warming trends and has reached temperatures that are equal to present temperatures and those predicted for us in the next 20 to 50 years...and these fluctuations happened well before man began his contributions to increased CO2 levels.

Revising 1,000 Years of Climate History
"The scientific evidence, including the two most recent studies of the climate for the past 1,000 years, strongly indicates that Northern Hemisphere temperatures have been both as warm as and substantially cooler than the present, absent any possible human influence. Such evidence should not be dismissed or manipulated to support predetermined conclusions, as the IPCC's Third Assessment Report does."
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 23, 2009, 7:40am EDT
Bent...

I am trying to be a better steward of the planet...independent of the question of global warming or climate change and I think this is the best policy for all of us. It has been suggested that the inertia of climate warming HAS now reached the point of no return...at least in the near future and the best we can do is to cope with the changes...not all of them will be bad.

But what is undeniably bad is the continued pollution of Earth...the poisoning of her waters and her atmosphere, the raping of the land and the destruction of her infrastructure of synergistic self regulation.

Equally as important as the atmosphere to our future well being is the condition of our oceans. If we concentrate on one segment of our pollution problems at the expense of the others...we have accomplished very little. All of our planet's systems are interconnected and interdependent.

The thing to remember is that the Earth and the other life on this planet are not dependent on us...we are the dependent ones, but we also hold the power to destroy life as we know it here.

So I agree with you Bent and I hope the economic forces that are necessary to move or drive the changes we know we must make are powerful enough enable those changes.
Frank Luke Oct 24, 2009, 1:17pm EDT
Slim: Isn't it true that our planet seems to have gone through periods where the climate was icy and then obviously warmed up again? It seems to hint that this process is a dynamic and may be repeated. It apparently depends on the planet's relation to our heater, the sun. ??

Re: "The thing to remember is that the Earth and the other life on this planet are not dependent on us...we are the dependent ones, but we also hold the power to destroy life as we know it here."

In the past human adverse affect on the planet was not as meaningful with smaller human populations. Current conditions of burgeoning exponential population growth and the depleting and despoiling of the planet's natural resources cause real growing concern for humanity's future, as we all should recognize by now.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 24, 2009, 6:10pm EDT
Frank...

"Slim: Isn't it true that our planet seems to have gone through periods where the climate was icy and then obviously warmed up again? It seems to hint that this process is a dynamic and may be repeated. It apparently depends on the planet's relation to our heater, the sun. ??"

Of course that is true and the process IS dynamic. But the relationship of the earth's position to the sun is only a part of the process of of climate change. It is way more complicated that sun spots and the angle of the earth's axis. It is so complicated that we still do not understand all the variables that contribute to the earth's climate patterns....we don't even know what all the variables are.

HERE are a few that are being studied....and these are just a small portion of the staggeringly huge number of variables.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 21, 2009, 9:40am EDT
We have a very slim chance, in my view. There is an entire world of people in denial and disbelief. Greed and irresponsibility are tough adversaries. I can only hope at the eventual metamorphosis this view provides, but my money's on the base nature of corporate think, for the present, as in all truth, they rule this world, at this point, albeit in the shadows. The only way this change can come, is if everyone of us rejects the products they sell that add to the problems, and at this point, as noted in comments above, it's almost impossible to even know what they are. They sure don't advertise "hey, this product is bad for the environment", and it takes personal responsibility to figure that out. We have very little of that to go around, I think, and I'm as bad as the next guy in that regard, though I try.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 10:14am EDT
I think you underestimate the power of "fads" and "trends." Corporations are very susceptible to these, and green is in right now.

Here's an op-ed piece from the New York Times discussing the potential impact of 'eco-angst" on marketing.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 21, 2009, 10:53am EDT
I think Ron's point is that eco-responsibility should not have to be the result of marketing efforts and the the impact of "eco-angst" on marketing is driven by the goal of sales (marketing strategy) and not by an interest in eco-responsibility. The result is a skewed picture of what the definition of eco-friendly actually means. Marketing is almost entirely constructed of misleading and ambiguous patter.

We should not allow the marketeers to lead us...we should lead them....as Ron points out, by only supporting the companies that give us what we demand...not the other way around....(the personal responsibility issue that Ron describes).

The challenge is to weed out the facts from the apparent facts. The bottled water industry serves as an example of people doing what they think is best, drinking bottled water, but without investigating the true cost to the environment and the accuracy of "pure water" claims.

Did you know:
* 60 Million plastic bottles a day are disposed of in America alone!
* Massive amounts of greenhouse gases are produced from manufacturing the plastic bottles.
* Millions of gallons of fuel are wasted daily transporting filtered tap water across America and around the world.
* It requires 3 times as much water to make the bottle as it does to fill it... it is an exceptionally wasteful industry.

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 11:06am EDT
"We should not allow the marketeers to lead us...we should lead them...."

Doesn't it work both ways?
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 21, 2009, 11:55am EDT
I couldn't have said it better, Slim. I drink no bottled water, never have, because it seemed, from the start, to be a scam, to me. Of course, I live on well water, anyway. Need to get that checked again, but at the time I bought this place, it was healthier than anything you could buy, anyway, and I have a reverse osmosis filter for drinking water, anyway. After investigating the issue, at the time, I found what you did. There are so many things like this that you find out later are bad for the environment, it just seems like to me it's an almost impossible task to live a zero impact life, especially when we are misled daily for profit.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 21, 2009, 11:56am EDT
Now, I have to wonder about the impact of water filters, too, of course...
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 21, 2009, 11:57am EDT
ARRRGHH!
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 21, 2009, 12:08pm EDT
I think the question is 'SHOULD it work both ways'? We are made offers by the marketeers and those offers are usually disguised in some fashion. If we take the offer without considering the truthfulness of the advertising and without considering other ramifications of the use of the offered product or services such as the impact on our environment, we are being led by the marketeers. If we demand truthfulness from the marketeers and we consider the environmental impact...we are leading the marketeers. We are telling the marketeers what we want...not the other way around. We do this at the cash register. We are supposed to do this at the cash register.

Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 21, 2009, 12:09pm EDT
I have well water too Ron. It is filtered as it enters the house, but only for sediments...which is all that is needed.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 12:59pm EDT
Well water-- oh dear. We live downstream from an old iron mine, and our water is brown. We use an ion exchange system to make the water clear. This result is many pounds of salt being dumped into the ground, supposedly at a level that doesn't affect any living organisms.

Needless to say, we are looking into other methods of purification. Do you guys know anything about charcoal filtration (on a household level) or electrolytic systems?
Shira C. Oct 21, 2009, 5:25pm EDT
All I have heard about charcoal filtration is that it is slooooooow. I have to address water quality issues in my house as well, but honestly, there are so MANY things to address with a new house, I haven't gotten to that one yet. If you find some good information, please share?
Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Oct 22, 2009, 9:12am EDT
Alex - fascinating. I fill my aluminum bottles.
Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Oct 22, 2009, 9:14am EDT
Well, we drink little juice as even 100% juice is almost nothing but sugar or as I like to say it is the fruit without the fiber. And David likes to drink it with sparkling water. So we are contemplating a Co2er. Yes, we use lage bottles of plastic currently.
Larry M. Oct 22, 2009, 10:24am EDT
I drink bottled water almost every day. I get it out of the kitchen tap and carry it with me on my walks. The bottles are several years old now.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 22, 2009, 11:08am EDT
Alex...

You said.."LOL, whoever made that loaded claim has very little understanding if any about the plastics industry and is assuming the same ignorance of every listener, too. Plastic manufacturers do indeed use water to cool the molds that make plastic products, however, they use a water recycling system that takes the hot water coming out of the molds, shoots it up the roof where the water cooling system is often located, and then shoots it back down to cool off another mold."


The total mass of the empty 1 liter bottle is probably around 0.025kg (25g) and it is made from PET (Polyethylene terephthalate) Plastics of this type use around 6.45kg of oil per kg, 294.2kg of water per kg, and result in 3.723kg of greenhouse gas emissions per kg. So, with a quick check (200kg/kg x 0.025kg = 5kg of water) we find that Butterfly is indeed correct. Based on my calculations a bottle that holds 1 liter requires 5 liters of water in its manufacturing process (this includes power plant cooling water). HERE

This includes the cooling water of the power plant and the plastic production but is not limited to those two uses.

Also...Your Water Bottle is One-Quarter Oil
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 22, 2009, 12:17pm EDT
Endless manufacture of plastics is not earth friendly, and very little gets recycled, in truth. How much water is used to make them is irrelevant to their impact.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 22, 2009, 12:51pm EDT
And you did note ethylene glycol is made with water, as well, I assume.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 23, 2009, 9:29am EDT
Let us note here that bio plastics, and biofuels in essence, take food and resources almost literally, out of the mouths of some pretty hungry people on this earth. Just sayin'. Not that they'd probably ever actually get the food that could be produced instead. This whole problem is filled to the brim with gotchas, isn't it?
Jerry Kays Oct 26, 2009, 2:25am EDT
Who cares about saving the babies ... not the ones who would be happy to spread a plague ... there is this "Malthusian" school of thought that thinks a good war or plague now and then is a good way to cleanse some scum off of "their" earth.
Jerry Kays Oct 26, 2009, 2:34am EDT
PS ... and "those folks" are also very Machiavellian ...
Gerry Wass Oct 21, 2009, 1:46pm EDT
The very existence of this article and the polite replies to it seems to me to be evidence for the existence of The Great Turning. I too have a sense that many things are coming together, just as the current speeds up as it enters the chaotic center of the vortex. A lot of my hope comes from working with students in the Purdy Recycling Project for four years now. Our innovative system recycled 100,000 pounds of material in a small town this past year and our goal is to double that this year. The program is nearly entirely student-run and kids are hungry both to do something big and proud of what they have achieved. Kids who grow up in schools without solid recycling programs implicitly learn that it is not important, but we are out to change that wherever we can. I had not heard of The Great Turning; I thank you for bringing it to my consciousness and it shall be part of my vocabulary now.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 2:00pm EDT
Good point, Gerry. If kids grow up thinking about The Great Turning, they are more likely to accept it as necessary, or at least important.
Gerry Wass Oct 21, 2009, 2:04pm EDT
Nice point, Ann. Henceforth, I will make The Great Turning part of my instructional vocab when I'm working with my students, and that will make even more of a difference.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 2:08pm EDT
Gerry, see my comment at the bottom about Joanna Macy's book and workshops. She has group exercises that might interest you as a teacher.
Gerry Wass Oct 21, 2009, 3:05pm EDT
Thank you, Ann. I believe you've opened an important door for me, and I've ordered the book.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 3:32pm EDT
I'm so glad, Gerry!
Shira C. Oct 21, 2009, 1:46pm EDT
Today I heard two conversations on two different satellite "public radio" shows that bear on this issue.

First, it appears there is now a slow money movement, modelled after the slow food movement, intended to focus investment on companies that are local, ethical and sustainable. It seems like a good idea to me, and I'm looking into that.

Second, I heard oceanographer Sylvia Earle discussing her book, The World is Blue, about the problems with our relationship to the oceans. Among the points she made is that when we eat a tuna, that tuna might be ten years old. An orange roughy might be 30. It's possible that it took 200 years for a fish that we eat to mature. We think the ocean will regenerate immediately because we think in terms of farmed animals (on land), that generally are table-ready in a few months.

This kind of misalignment of time scales is one of the great problems we have in making wise use of the world's gifts of resources. (It is also the root of our problem with oil, of course.) Human brains do this sort of related rate calculation rather poorly, which is why school children tend to hate those kinds of problems in math class. We do have the tools to begin to take account of different timescales, but it will be awhile, I think, before average people think in those terms.

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 2:02pm EDT
I agree, Shira. Not only do we need to think about time scales, but we need to include other environmental factors in the cost/benefit analyses we use in our decision-making.
Shira C. Oct 21, 2009, 2:23pm EDT
Yes. For the first time in history, we have tools to help us overcome the limitations of our own thinking. We have statistics, which allows us to deal with the massive parallelism of the world. We have the evolutionary paradigm and at least a rudimentary understanding of ecology (which I understand is your field, and I'm in awe.) We have some understanding of scales of time and size, so we can avoid being trapped by our natural viewpoint. We are beginning to see where the blindspots and outright errors exist in our innate understanding of physics, psychology, social relations, etc.

The problem is, most of these tools are methods of thought that are not being taught. Why does math aim at knowledge of calculus instead of statistics? Why don't biology classes focus on the way living things interrelate? (At least they didn't when I was in school. I home-schooled my daughter, and that's what we tried to do. But because we home-schooled, I didn't get a chance to see what the high school was doing.) Why don't we teach geography? Well... I am going off-topic, I think.

But I think that if something will stop the progress of "The Great Turning", it will be ignorance of the thought-tools we already possess.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 2:05pm EDT
One of my favorite things about Joanna Macy's workshops is that she shows us how to take the guilt and angst we feel over the degradation of our planet and transform it into energy for positive change.

For more info, see her book Coming Back to Life. It's is full of group exercises that might interest the teachers here.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 2:12pm EDT
Are any of you willing to give up your present standard of living for a lower one ( and I mean possibly much lower), in order to save your planet?

What are you willing to sacrifice?

Shira C. Oct 21, 2009, 2:21pm EDT
Depends on what you mean by "much lower". The fact is, there is an enormous amount of waste that masquerades as a high standard of living. The current merchandising paradigm is designed to get people to throw away things that work fine, just to get the latest version. Why, for instance, when a new computer chip is developed, is there no mechanism to upgrade older models rather than discard them? The answer is profit, of course. The point is, there is a great deal of waste that can be cut out of this system without affecting our standard of living in any meaningful way.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 2:31pm EDT
Yes, Shira, I acknowledge the practicality of your idea.

But I repeat, are you willing to lower your over-all standard of living.
That means doing without some things you may currently want in your life.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 2:36pm EDT
...like a computer, telephone, automobile, electricity? A meal?

Or, even our precious television sets? (laughter)

For all: What would you truly be willing to give up to save this planet?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 21, 2009, 2:54pm EDT
Or, how much are you willing to spend to "save the planet"?

We already get our electricity from a green supplier, which costs more. We plan to replace our water conditioner due to environmental concerns. We are also looking in to buying "offsets" to compensate for our greenhouse gas consumption. But I admit that there's much more we could do.

Shira C. Oct 21, 2009, 3:10pm EDT
The thing is, it's tough to answer the question as you've posed it, ben Surbana. Because we make choices based on cost AND benefit. You are asking us to specify on the cost side, while leaving the benefit non-specific.

Some of the things we can give up: leisure time, aka convenience. Example: I do most tasks related to food for our family. It takes time (and in some cases, extra money) to look for locally grown food, to do prep from scratch rather than buy packaged, and to make some of my own staple items. The thing is, I make each decision based on cost and benefit, so when you say, how much are you willing to give up, it varies.

And that is perhaps the answer I would like to suggest. We will decide how much we are willing to give up based on innumerable individual decisions. I doubt we can look ahead at this point and say, ok, we have to give up computers and Starbucks coffee and so on and so on.

Instead, what we need to do is try not to make decisions on auto-pilot.

What we have to give up is the sort of mindless complacency that allows us to reach out for what we want at the moment without any thought of whether it is worth the cost.
ben S. Oct 21, 2009, 3:33pm EDT
Yes, sacrifice does not always appear as a material forfeiture.

But it is always avoided if we do not truly love a cause which is greater in value than the value of what we let go of.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 21, 2009, 4:31pm EDT
First, sacrifice needs to be something we all agree on. If I do something, and no one else does, then the effort or the sacrifice will not seem worthwhile. Many things need to be looked at, and yes, ben, per your comment below, there needs to be a green police, for many will sacrifice nothing, without it.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Oct 21, 2009, 4:34pm EDT
And there are many greener ways to manufacture and recycle the electronics we all rely on, and of course there are already efforts to reduce the power they consume, which gets better all the time. I just read an article about this, the other day. I'll see if I can fi