WHAT IF HITLER HAD NEVER INVADED POLAND IN 1939???..............

Very interesting post. I often remind myself that Hitler was a man and in the beginning he was welcomed and loved by his people.

I have another one:

What if Hitler did not decide to attack the Soviet Union? He had an agreement with them to not attack each other but he still did it. Even after taking over Poland, Austria, and other European countries, the territory controlled by the Nazis still looked small on the map compared to the Soviet Union. It was probably his pride and craziness that led him to break the agreement with Stalin and attack the Soviets.

If he did not send millions of soldiers to the Soviet Union (many of whom froze to death) he could possibly take over all other European countries and then move to other parts of the world.

I'm glad he made this mistake.

Very interesting, thought provoking post. Thanks for sharing. It's a great question, and I too like to learn about this because my family is of Polish ancestry...it's interesting to think what they went through.

Thank you, for sharing


Have a Great & powerful day W/J!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /a>

It is interesting to try to understand how this man rose to power.

This is a What If, and it is a good start for a fictional novel. I read one about a hypothetical circumstance regarding Hitler, and it was a real thrillelr. You may be on to something, Berf.

It is an interesting topic.

I've watched old films of Hitler giving his speeches. I think it's easy to see how charismatic he was and how his enthusiasm would have lured many into his way of thinking, even though it made no sense. It wasn't what he said, but how he said it and the time he said it in, after Germany had their butt kicked and was hurting.

Certainly the world would be quite different today IF ONLY.... It boggles the mind to contemplate on it.

While you are at it What if Hitler never invaded anyone but stayed in Germany as head of their government. I bet he would be recognized today as a great man. He did a lot for the country before he went on the war path.

The man was a genius...Hate him or what ever, the man was a genius. Sadly most people who are, do become insane in time... =)

I recently read something interesting ... but almost certainly a conspiracy theory. The atomic bomb that the US tested in New Mexico was a plutonium bomb. The plutonium came from the reactor from the University of Chicago. The problem is that, why were the two bombs that we blew up in Japan uranium bombs?

In other words we dropped the uranium bombs on Japan when we had never tested a uranium bomb.

The conspiracy theory was that the two bombs that we dropped were actually built in Germany, but could be used because they had no way to deliver the bombs and knew they were going to lose. To nuke Britain at that time would have been met with total devastation of Germany.

You have to remember that Germany was way more technically advanced than the allies. They had jet airplanes that had they gotten them perfected and out a bit faster would have been able to completely protect mainland Europe from naval reinforcement.

Hitler was not a genius, he had powerful backers who knew just how to position him and use him. Hitler pushed a war with two fronts that made sure that he lost the war. What was the point in murdering all the Jews, some of the greatest and most secularly German minds in the country. The man was a puppet against communism who got out of the hands of his fascist corporate puppet masters.

Berf, you might be interested in a series of novels by Harry Turtledove that present an alternative history of WWII.

I too think you could take one of your many articles and spin it into a book. You love research and are very determined. You should consider it.

Berf,

A slight correction in your post: It was Australia, not Austria, which joined Britain in a declaration of war, correct? Austria had already been seized as part of Germany by Hitler (or is the Sound of Music story just a great musical?)

Hitler was indeed impulsive. Those who believe he was not a genius need only review the political success of a man who had been in prison only a decade earlier. Many of his Nazi cohorts were fellow prisoners. And while Mein Kampf may not have won a pulitzer, it was a powerful instrument of pushing Adolf's agenda.

History records the Versailles Treaty at the end of WWI as the main reason Hitler was able to manipulate the German people in his rise to power. The manner in which Germany was purposefully left as a doormat for the winners created a bitterness in the German populace which fed the desire for revenge. Hitler's cheerleader persona of touting the German people as superior to all others fueled the rise in nationalism, of which the Nazi party took full advantage.

The biggest drawback of Hitler's ambitions was the Wermacht (the Old Guard) general staff. They were not Nazi loyalists, they were loyal Germans. Hitler's insistence on making all major decisions in the conduct of his army's campaigns seriously affected the confidence and effectiveness of the German Army.

What if Hitler had not invaded Poland? He would probably have figured out a way to undermine the Polish government by political subversion and eventually claim it as a puppet State of Germany. The problem was that Hitler was confident that the Allies were ill-prepared to defend Poland and Belgium and France (which proved to be accurate.)

Had Hitler been defeated during the 1940 invasion of France, or at least slowed significantly in his Blitzkrieg, then perhaps he might have temporarily sued for peace and lived to fight another day. But history is what it is....

Tyrants rise to power because good people fail to act when they see the first signs of trouble stirring. People tend to hope for the better and do nothing, thinking that the government will prevent its own overthrow. Yet that is the very thing which tyrants depend upon: inaction. Hitler was a master at placating the appeasers with lies and illusions.

Great question, Berf!

Berf -- Have you ever seen the film "Downfall" aka "Le Chute" aka "Der Untergang?"

Extremely realistic version of Hitler and buddies in the bunker, and presents a more comprehensive view of Hitler than usual. Bruno Ganz does an amazing Hitler - looks a lot like him. I heard an interview with Ganz when this was being filmed. He was walking from the makeup dept. to the set in his Hitler costume and people on the street practically attacked him.

We might be speaking German or playing the part of lampshade.

Hitler might have rushed things but he knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He waited for the germany's economy to go downhill, for people to be desperate for anything better than they had and then entered the scene. He was a great orator, he knew how to use words and knew that words were going to be his greatest weapon. He convinced people of his country that he could make their lives better and he was a 'magician'. That's why they followed him and believed him, because they wanted to believe. He knew how to choose his closest helpers who were just as mentally ill as him and who did the dirty work for him, enjoying every minute if it. And then the regular people who loved him before realized that it was too late to oppose him because they would be killed as well.

As far as Poland goes, if Hitler hadn't invaded Poland, Stalin would and actually did. It is not talked about very often but Stalin exterminated millions of Polish people who died of starvation, murderous treatment in the Soviet gulags.

Thanks you for an interesting post

Hitler's party got only about 30% of the votes when he was elected. It is doubtful that he ever had anywhere near full support of the German people. It was illegal to complain or to object to what the Party was doing. People also feared for their jobs. (Does that sound familiar?) Hitler was unorthodox and there were scores of assassination attempts against him so you can see he wasn't universally loved.

Stephanie is right, in fact it is very likely that if Hitler had not opened the front with Russia Russia would have attacked into Europe. This war was a war by industrialists, even in the US to protect the world from the unknown of Communism, and confiscation of the wealth and the means of production in the US and Western Europe.

Hitler was supported by many American corporate leaders, and businesses were selling products to him through overseas subsidiaries almost throughout the war.

I wonder how much the plans to get Hitler into power were really his plans. He was backed by major corporations and industrialists to get the leadership of the Democratic Socialists, then purged the socialists out, and turn the group facists. Got himself elected, and we know that you do not do that alone with with small donations back then, so he was manipulated into power

Then the Reichstag was burned and it was blamed on a communist who was mentally deficient, when it was later proven that the multiple fires were set simultaneiously and it was done by members of Hitler's party. It was downhill from there.

Russia would not have invaded Europe for many years to come. It was too weak. Remember the problems it had with invading Finland? Russia was paranoid, of course, but it wanted the Western powers to fight among themselves so it could take advantage of the weakened states that remained. Russia remembered all too well the problems of war against the West. So until the old guard died out and youngsters who did not remember living through WWI took over, it would not have invaded the West. (Maybe a little invasion or two in the Far East though...)

The Teaching Company has a terrific set of Audio CDs (check your library) about Hitler's rise to power - it ends with the invasion of Poland in 1939. I highly recommend that everyone listen to it, since our public schools don't teach anything regarding Hitler's rise to power - they just hop from war to war.

Berf,

I, too, have always been fascinated by the democratic process that empowers a Hitler. I am currently re-reading Konrad Heiden's "Der Führer – Hitler's Rise to Power "; John Toland's "Adolf Hitler"; and William L. Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" with two or three reference books like the "Encyclopedia of the Third Reigh" by Louis L. Snyder and "Fascism: Past, Present, Future" by Walter Laqueur. I always read several books at a time...it's an old habit...details...more information. My wife says that where I am reading at any given time looks like there's been an explosion of bookshelves. Lol.

I'm of the dictum...to identify evil you have to know it's formation...with all their' subtleties.

The nations the declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939 wouldn't have made a dent on the powerful Wehrmacht...it was Hitler's invasion of Russia that doomed him and the Third Reich. Hitler preached endlessly in 'Mein Kampf' about avoiding a two-front war... than, once in power didn't follow what he preached,...also, it has always been a bad idea to invade Russia.

The Wehrmacht was defeated, for all intents and purposes, when the 6th Army capitulated at Stalingrad after the biggest battle in history with almost 2 million casualties combined...after that it was all retreat for the battered German forces. Than it was the race to Berlin by everyone and their' mother to divide the spoils.

In the six party race of 1933 the Nazis garnered 43.9% of the votes...second place, the Social Democratic Party, got 18.3%. The Nazi's won and they won big.

interesting ......thanks for sharing

Berf, an excellent and timely question.

The history of Germany shows what a desperate, starving people will do to survive, and makes me think of the situation in Mexico now. Despite Calderone's best efforts, the drug lords still control a substantial part if Mexico and innocent people are being gunned down it the streets. Money from relatives in the U.S. has sharply decreased as construction jobs disappear, and the Mexican economy is lagging.

I wonder what a desperate people will do, and how it will affect the U.S. with an unprotected 2,000 mile border.

It is amazing how he did get as far as he did. I have a great-great-great uncle that was in on a plot to kill him. There is a book about it call "To Kill the Devil".

thank you for sharing this

Hitler got that far because the people let him. When you sit back and let someone else make the decisions for you then you are just as much to blame as they are.

Very interesting though, Berf. I'm fascinated by Hitler personally. Not because I think his teachings were right, but he did become a leader to an entire nation. I've come to the conclusion that there will always be a cult following if you have a good gimmick that seems believable and know how to first sell yourself before you sell your ideas. Hitler was brilliant at that. Which, I suppose in essence is also how many of these new-fangled religions and cults have come about. Makes you wonder more about what is going through the followers' heads more than what's going on in the leader's though . . .

This is why I opt to think for myself instead of being a sheep!

this is a great topic! thank you :>}

He took his ideas from the Zionists public speakers he saw in his youth in Vienna to write Mien Kampf. If he had not he would not have justified imperialism on racist grounds. There would be no Nazism or Hitler. However German Industrialists would still have the need to fund and create something to oppose Marxism.

Blame the Kaiser for starting WWI. No Kaiser, no war, no failure of Imperial Russia, and no communism.

All the world is a stage and we are only players.

If the Mongols had not driven the Kazvars into Christian territory. Jews would not have been living Orthodox Christians. There would have been no expulsion into central Europe by Christian extremism and no Holocaust.

History is like a string of beads and many streams flowing into the same river.

He would have eventually fallen, I believe, but I'm glad he fell when he did.

It's not morbid at all to have this fascination. As evil as he was, he was incredibly charismatic and brilliant. Just like any sadistic, blood thirsty ruler was. Even decades after his death, people still want to learn about him and other rulers like him.
It's kind of interesting, though, that he didn't set out to be Germany's leader. He initially was a pot stirrer and pushed propaganda. With enough coertion and support, he took the reins, per say, and took the lead.

Lots of things would be different right now.

Recommended reading: Hitler, a biography in two volumes by Ian Kershaw. You might glean from it many things. For example, that it was no democratic process that put Hitler in power, but the waylaying and strongarming of the democratic Weimar government by Hitler and the NSDAP's thugs. True, many supported Hitler, an expert rabble-rouser, but many were a, oblivious to, b, supportive of, or c, afraid of his underhanded and decidedly un-democratic tactics during his rise to power. But the "what if" you pose, Berf, is an interesting one. Try this rephrase on for size: What if a strong, nationalistic, military juggernaut had appeared in central Europe that had for its military strategists people who were not mad, and who were some of the best military minds in the world, and what if their supreme leader was as sane and as expert as they?

FYI, The first volume of Kershaw's biography of Hitler takes us from birth up through his rise to power, and is subtitled "Hubris". The second, "Nemesis" takes it from the height of Nazi power to Hitler's ultimate self-destruction as the Russians overran Berlin in 1945.

History repeats itself. A future Hitler-like personality will claim to be able to solve all the world's problems, and all nations will believe it.

To keep employed, to survive a worldwide bad economy, and to be able to buy and sell, all people will have to do is accept his insignia (mark), as in "MARK OF THE BEAST".

Great topic, thanks for sharing. Back to the question, perhaps millions of people didn't die.

Somehow I wonder if there is a connection to this and the way of the United States of America today. Too many people with their eyes closed and downcast hoping they can have it pass over them.

Do we really want to be socialists anybody read Animal Farm lately?

Reading thi9s tonight after the tragic shooting at the Holocaust Museum in D C is just to much for me to wrap my mind into.I have been there a multitude of times doing research with Kasey

good it is here les we forget

If any of you go to DC go there you to will be changed forever

Very good post Berf. I have had many thoughts on this, too. I often wondered...why did the Jews not join forces and fight back? Six million jews working as one strong backbone would have been impressive to say the least. I also think and would have asked ... Where the hell was everyone else to give them support and/or a safe haven? I realize many were given safe havens and those who offered it lost their lives...but ...but...? Get my drift? How could so many thousands of Germans stand by and not do anything? Why didn't someone just shoot the bastard from a rooftop? later...

nice post, i alwayse wonder his bio

Did you know that Hitler's Regime began in the good ol USA? We were the original eugenics and Hitler like what we were doing. No thanks to people like Margaret Sanger and those of her ilk.

This is a great radio program you must listen to from Dr. Stan Monteith called Hitlers Health Care Plan:

Date: 08-11-09
Hour: a - 1 hr.
3:00: William Federer - Hitler's Health Plan
Standard Player Save
http://www.soundwaves2000.com/radio_liberty/

Look for this program at the above link.

Have you ever read this article before? If not, it will amaze you.
The Horrifying American Roots of Nazi Eugenics by Edwin Black

http://hnn.us/articles/1796.html

Berf, I now have reason to be concerned. We are both fascinated with Hitler and the history relating to him for the same reasons as you.

I have read those books also, some more than once.

Back to Berf's topic:
For one, my father would have been a chemist, not a judge, and he probably would not have met my mother, so I might not have come into existence.

Jenie E. ". . . why did the Jews not join forces and fight back?" That would not have worked. Their resistance would be deemed a confirmation of Hitler's illogical charges. Many believed the lies simply because they wanted to. (Jealousy, prejudice etc.)

Also, If Hitler had waited long enough, members of the hated group would have given him the very weapon he needed to secure victory, the atomic bomb.

An excellent psychological "analysis" of Hitler was written by Erich Fromm, The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness.

"I have often wondered how different history may have been if Hitler had never chosen to invade Poland in 1939."

If you read Fromm's analysis, you will better understand that Hitler was incapable of not invading Poland. He was a megalomaniacal necrophiliac. That is not analogical - it is a diagnosis of his character.

Now, I have to go wash my hands after typing his name.

Berf: [...because I am fascinated by how on earth such a man ever became the leader of an entire nation and how such a diabolically evil entity such as the Third Reich ever came to be....

But, what if Hitler had been a lot more patient and a lot less paranoid?? What if he had bided his time a little more and waited until Germany had built up its military force to an even stronger and far more unstoppable war machine??]

I think you would see the picture of a scenario much like we have today in America, where a whole lot of the public back ONE man and think he has come to "SAVE US", who would do whatever he says to do, (because HE says it), not because it makes good sense to do....the German people were for the most part, fooled in the same way...their country was in trouble, here comes this smooth talking Austrian (not even a born German, but it didn't matter to them, he was their savior)...he spoke the words they wanted to hear, he created a mantra, they all chanted it, they were counting on CHANGE and HOPE to deliver them, they were going to rise to the top, they worshipped him...he had his symbol that was uniquely his, the swastica, much like the red, blue and white emblem of the rising sun on everything in America now...the trademark of the new "savior of America" who comes in power and glory to save us all...

I can see the connection...and so do a lot of other people...

I think German history can tell us something, if we will just listen!

And I have another one; What if Hitler loved them Jews? What if he didn't burn them alive in those houses of death? Or better still; What if he finished off all Jews on the face of this earth? I think the world would have been a better place without them. They are the Hitlers of today! Each one of them, at least as known to the poor palestinians.