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by Time Heals
Member since:
August 31, 2006

Getting It Through Our Heads: The Money Is Gone

January 31, 2009 05:36 PM EST
views: 215 | comments: 92

The economic situation in America is a complex thing.  Trying to express it in simple terms is tricky, and almost always creates more confusion than understanding.  That's because most people who seek to express the situation in simple terms do so by oversimplifying the complexities.  What they should be doing is teasing out the few aspects of the situation which are simple in nature from the web of complexities in which they're trapped.  I'm going to try a little of that right now.

First of all, in regard to the question of where the money all went... it's mostly gone.  It can't be gotten back.  Money has no value of its own, it's a representation of the value of other things.

A bunch of rich, smart people found a way to create financial instruments which appeared to have value but in reality did not.  They bought and sold them as if they had great value, and they made obscene profits by doing so.  They took those profits out of the total pool of money and pocketed them.  By the time it was discovered that those financial instruments had little or no real value, it was too late.  Enormous amounts of money had been drained out of the pool under false pretenses.  A lot of the money that was drained out was sheltered from taxation and siphoned into private offshore accounts.  For all practical purposes, it's gone.

When those phony financial instruments collapsed, their value went from huge to zero.  Our economy decreased in size by the amount of all that lost value.  If it ended there, things would not be nearly as bad as they are.

But the economy also decreased by the amount of profits which were made by buying and selling those phony financial instruments.  Those profits are now private property.  The whole scam was too big, and went on for too long, to ever track down who pocketed how much of the proceeds.  You might wonder how the money can really be gone, since people who are taking in huge profits also spend huge amounts of money, effectively returning that money to the general economy.  Normally, you'd be right.  But in this case, the rich got richer on a scale and with a speed never before seen in American history.  They couldn't possibly spend more than a small fraction of the money they were draining out of the system.  So instead of spending it, they stashed it.  No one can force them to spend it, and they're not likely to spend it willingly.  That money has to get them through the years of hard times we're all facing, until the economy recovers from the damage they caused.

It seems crazy to think that anyone could haul in profits bigger than any ever seen in the history of this country, and somehow avoid paying their share of taxes on them.  It's not really that hard, if you have a general understanding of how much of the way our financial system operates is fantasy-based.  Money can be shuffled around, so that by the time it's taken out in the form of profit it's nearly all taken as capital gains.  The maximum tax rate for capital gains is much lower than the tax rate the average American worker pays on wages earned.  Speculators can sell financial instruments they haven't even bought yet and take the profits, then decide not to buy what they just sold.  The broker who mediated the deal can be left on the hook for the failure to deliver, rather than person who profited.

There are lots of other examples of ways to take money out of the system without putting anything of value into it.  The only requirement is that you have to not care about ethics or what the consequences for others will be.  It also helps if you have a federal administration bent on dismantling the oversight and enforcement bodies which are supposed to catch things like this and nip them in the bud.

To make things worse, a lot of the money the federal government did manage to take in from taxing those enormous profits was funneled back into the pockets of the super-rich by privatization of governmental services.  And to make things even worse yet, we started a phony war so we could hire private contractors to fight that war and pay them with the taxpayers' money.  I'm at a loss to come up with a more efficient way to take money from the general population and divide it up among the rich, while looking as if you're doing the whole world a great big favor.  How else can you rob people and convince them to give you a standing ovation while you're doing it?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record... if it ended there, things wouldn't be as bad as they are.  The trouble is, everybody wanted to get in on the action.  Everybody wanted to ride the wave.  Real estate became the average American's phony financial instrument.  People found out you could buy a house, put a few thousand dollars into improvements, then sell it a year later for a huge profit.  Real estate values rose at a fantastic rate.  That created new equity for homeowners who weren't buying or selling.  That equity could be cashed out by refinancing or taking out an additional mortgage.  All that profiting from rising real estate values drained more money out of the system in the form of (say it with me) profits from financial instruments whose value was mostly pretend.

Local and state governmental entities stood by and cheered as it was happening.  Average Americans couldn't shelter their proceeds the way the super-rich do, so all that buying and selling, refinancing and second-mortgaging, was producing revenues for those governmental bodies.  The crazy increases in property values produced correspondingly crazy increases in property taxes.  As the money rolled in, our elected officials were too enchanted by the piles of cash to stop and ask whether or not it was even a good idea.

What I'm getting at is that too many people, at too many levels, were participating in the rush to drain money out of the pool in the form of profits on things which had value only on paper and only on a temporary basis.  It broadened and accelerated, until it passed a tipping point and the whole thing came crashing down.  When it did, it took the whole economy with it.

Here's another simple thing which is being intentionally obscured by those with a vested interest in preserving the status quo.  When the federal government provides emergency funds to those industries which are teetering on the verge of collapse, that is not socialization of those industries.  It is not socialism of any kind.  Those who created this mess already altered the system so that the profits were overly privatized and the risks were overly socialized.  They did all that socialization of risk before things fell apart.  They did it because it made their rape of the system possible.  We are stuck with the bill because of what has already been done.  Refusal to pay the bill will help no one.  It would only serve to further disable the already damaged system we're now trying to resuscitate.  Whether or not that's fair is entirely a separate issue and is not directly related to the issue of dealing with the aftermath of all this financial ruin.

Now that all the phony value which made it possible for the rich to get incredi-rich, and for the average worker to live beyond their means for years has collapsed and disappeared, we have to replace it with real value.  We have to create value the old-fashioned way, with hard work.  We have to make things which are more valuable than the sum of their parts, and sell them.  We have to provide services which offer real value to those who buy our services.  We won't get back to where we were before this collapse until we've replaced all the now-missing phony value with real value.  If we cheat on the creation of that value, we'll only end up just as screwed as we are now, if not more.

We need to get it through our heads:  the money was fake, and now it's gone.  The money that's left is the real money.  If we want more money, we'll have to create things of value and increase the value of the things we have, because money itself has no value.  It only represents other things which do have value.  Healthy Americans are valuable.  High-quality education is valuable.  Renewable energy sources are valuable.  Roads and bridges are valuable.  Water, air and land are far more valuable when they're clean and can support living things.

And lest we forget... Justice is valuable.  But that's another subject altogether.

Expand Tags: economy, real estate, money, stimulus
Expand To Groups: Completely Shameless Point Whoring, Gather Politics Essential, Intelligent politics, Left Of The Right, News, Politics and the Economy, Progressive Politics
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Comments: 92 ( 5 removed by Time Heals )

Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jan 31, 2009, 5:57pm EST
How did you get so da... um smart? I've been reading scores of material on "the phony money" and what caused our collapse. When the housing market boomed (2003?) and everyone (dem and repubs alike) gave thanks to GWB for it, and suddenly people who couldn't afford to buy a house, now owned one, I said, "Yeah, the trick is going to be trying to keep it". I guess I've lived long enough to know that when something is too good to be true, it is. My husband and I weren't less guilty. When we sold one home to build another, the timing was perfect! We doubled the profit on the sold house, and when we built the second one, we had instant equity! Two years later, not suspecting the failure to happen quite yet, we decided to sell that home. It's been on the market for three years, unable to sell, because no bank would give out loans. We haven't taken a loss.. but we aren't making a profit. It's a quick sale.

Now.. the question mulling in my mind lately is where in the hell are we coming up with so much bail out money? We owe China money. Are the feds just rolling the bills off of a machine without any real value to support it? And now our children and grandchildren will be paying for this? How? How will they put value back into the economy.. or our monetary system?
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Time Heals Jan 31, 2009, 6:05pm EST
Now.. the question mulling in my mind lately is where in the hell are we coming up with so much bail out money?

It isn't our money. We're borrowing it from other countries. The very idea of borrowing that much money when we're already on the verge of financial ruin has a lot of people understandably freaked out. But the harsh reality is that we've run out of options. The Fed rate is effectively at zero. If we use that borrowed money wisely, we'll be okay—as impossible as it sounds, we can pay it back. If we squander the money on tax cuts for the rich, the rich will be the only ones left with any money at all. At that point, we'd no longer be a Democracy, but a Plutocracy. Funny thing is, capitalism can work in a Plutocracy. that's why some very powerful people want to push for exactly that result.
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Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jan 31, 2009, 6:17pm EST
Ah! T.H. Where are you getting your info? Please share it. Who do we owe? I thought this was a Global crisis. (China has a lot of stake in our real estate!)

Do you think Obama's (along with the Dems who are throwing their pork in it) Stimulus package is going to work? (It's making me very nervous)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jan 31, 2009, 6:32pm EST
Your so smart!

Sorry.

You really are. Thanks for putting this in terms that are easy to understand.

This line demanded my attention more than the others. "When those phony financial instruments collapsed, their value went from huge to zero." Until we are willing to get real, nothing can change and we remain vulnerable.

I need to read this again and give it more thought before I can say much more than thanks, and I'm passing this on to friends.
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Time Heals Jan 31, 2009, 6:35pm EST
Ah... you noticed I didn't provide any links to supporting information. One reason is that I get my information from a wide range of sources, and I don't catalog most of it for future reference. So, if I provide links they'll only be to a selected few resources. Anyone can disregard a single source as being invalid, for ideological reasons. Only the combined wisdom of all the most independent, non-partisan, professional sources who have proven records of success can begin to combat that willful ideological blindness. Since I can't even begin to bring all those sources directly to the discussion here, I didn't even bother.

Nevertheless, I should mention that one of my favorite sources for plain English explanations of the various aspects of this whole mess is NPR's Planet Money.

I think Obama's stimulus bill is not perfect, but it's the closest thing we're likely to get. The trick, after getting it passed, will be to stomp on those who will try to undermine it for their own financial and political profit. It will be a neverending task.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jan 31, 2009, 6:36pm EST
"But the harsh reality is that we've run out of options.

I compare the point we're at to the guy who is almost broke, but knows that he can borrow money to start a business and turn things around. It's scary to make that loan, knowing that the ability to repay it depends entirely on the success of the business. A wise man would put his heart and soul, and every bit of his energy into running that business and making sure it succeeds. It will take all of us putting everything we have into learning what we need to know to make this work.
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Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jan 31, 2009, 6:42pm EST
Thank you so much T.H.

You have no idea how much I've come to admire you. Thank you for this article. I'll be back to read more responses.

I'm going to go check out your link.
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Dannielle S. Jan 31, 2009, 6:59pm EST
Well... now that you put it that way, it makes sense. Those who are presenting it as mumbo-jumbo might be doing so because they had some part in creating the problem, which becomes clear when the rest does.
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Time Heals Jan 31, 2009, 6:59pm EST
Sandy - Thanks for your responses. I like the way you bring big things down to a human, personal level. I'd also compare our current situation to the guy whose long-successful family business is now on the verge of bankruptcy. It isn't his fault that no one has any money to spend right now. If he can borrow some money, and put all of himself into the effort, he can hold on long enough to turn things around. He can survive, and he can pay the money back eventually. But the banks are so wounded by their own unwise lending of the past that they don't want to lend money to anyone who really needs it. There aren't enough people fitting that description to lend to, so the lenders are cutting their own throats and throwing small business people under the bus in the process.

It will take all of us putting everything we have into learning what we need to know to make this work.

Personally, I think it will take all of us who are willing and able to put everything we have into learning and doing, to overcome the drag of those who are ideologically incapable of acting to prevent their own—and everyone else's—demise.

Debra - Thanks... but promise me this article won't raise your expectations of me too much. I still have some stupid and offensive things lingering in my drafts folder.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jan 31, 2009, 7:05pm EST
I agree, and wish I wouldn't have left out the word 'doing'. I thought it, but didn't say it.
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Time Heals Jan 31, 2009, 7:05pm EST
Dannielle - yeah, I think a few of the mumbo-jumbo people are just terrible communicators. but most of them are deliberately trying to convince people of some fake version of reality which it serve their purposes to have us believe. They would much rather place their bets on being one of the few, super-powerful who end up controlling everything when we finish sliding into "America II: The Plutocracy" than than roll up their sleeves and help restore a system in which the benefits are available to all.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jan 31, 2009, 7:06pm EST
And I think Dannielle hit on a great point: Those who are presenting it as mumbo-jumbo might be doing so because they had some part in creating the problem. We need to stop listening to anyone who doesn't want to speak in clear terms.
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Peter Joseph Swanson Jan 31, 2009, 7:10pm EST
Karl Marx beat you to it:


Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalized, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism. (Das Kapital, 1867)
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Time Heals Jan 31, 2009, 7:18pm EST
Peter - this is not a thread in which the poster can be baited into a debate over issues which serve primarily to obscure the reality in favor of ideology. Political ideology, much like the bible, can be interpreted by anyone to mean anything.
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Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jan 31, 2009, 7:19pm EST
It's called slavery, Peter.
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Peter Joseph Swanson Jan 31, 2009, 8:25pm EST
It's uncanny to me that he said it like that, that's all.

(what's called slavery ???)
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Time Heals Jan 31, 2009, 8:46pm EST
Look, ideological purists are the problem, not the solution. There just aren't any ideologies left anywhere on the spectrum worth flogging. It's worthwhile to understand them, in context, but only to the extent that we can learn not to fall into their traps. Equality, fairness, opportunity, justice, freedom—these are concepts which live outside of any ideology. They're fundamental human rights (or they ought to be).

Our situation, and the prospects for our future, are so dire that we can only hope to deal with them if we can resist the lures of ideologies. We have to focus on facts and results. Anything less, and we're all totally screwed.

The irony is that if Obama's programs succeed, they'll benefit everyone, including those who are too blinded by ideology (or just plain too stupid) to do anything but complain, obstruct and point fingers. They'll even benefit those who didn't bother to vote, those who couldn't care less about the struggles of their fellow human beings, and those who burn crosses on the lawns of dark-skinned people.
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Aniko     Jan 31, 2009, 9:30pm EST
Everyone on Gather should be reading this, TH. Instead you have 27 views. Sigh.

Peter, that quote sounds fishy. In Marxist theory, communism would be brought about by a self-conscious movement of the working class that would take over the means of production from the bourgeoisie, and institute the dictatorship of the proletariat. Note the emphases. It's not something the state does, and it's not about credits and banks. That whole bit sounds very anachronistic.

In any case, virtually every prediction Marx made has turned out to be wrong. (Communism was supposed to first triumph is the most industrialized countries, since they had the strongest working class; instead, the Soviet Revolution happened, and the Communist block formed around it was made up of semi-feudal, mostly agricultural countries with a weak working class and lots of uneducated peasants.) But then Marx never claimed to be infallible, and he's not nearly vague enough to be used as Nostradamus.

In short, there are a lot of things to worry about at this point, but I seriously don't think Communism is one of them.
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Aniko     Jan 31, 2009, 9:47pm EST
And indeed, Peter, the more uncanny the quote, the more skeptical you should be.
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Stephanie B. Jan 31, 2009, 9:54pm EST
Time Heals, once again you have delved right to the heart of the matter. And I think a key point you make can't be stressed enough. Things of real value in the US are the minds and backs of the people, the infrastructure to facilitate their needs and the necessities to keep them going. Investing in anything else is a waste of time, like playing double or nothing on one more hand of blackjack in Vegas when you're already mindbogglingly in debt. Except the odds are worse.

We tried investing in false promises and they led us here. We either invest in the real value of this country - it's citizens - or we fail. It means something that Obama understands this.
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Kris M. Jan 31, 2009, 9:58pm EST
What infuriates me -- not that it takes much -- is the constant attempt to blame everything on poor people wanting to live above their means. Sure we did. I'd like a Jaguar and a $1 million home as much as the next person. But the poor living in houses they "knew they couldn't afford," which, by the way, completely ignores the existence of predatory lending, didn't drive this crisis. The rich did. The rich always manage to show more breathtaking greed than anyone else, on an across-the-board basis. I'm furious at how this country manages to blame the poor for everything that affects them, be it lousy and uninsured health, foreclosure, a need for more social programs, or even big fat asses, while the rich, who shoved us into this mess headfirst, get none of the blame that's coming to them.
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Peter Joseph Swanson Jan 31, 2009, 10:03pm EST
Thanks Aniko - and yes, that quote IS all over the internet, now !!!

I will go post that link to Faux Marx to a few places !!!!
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John Knight Jan 31, 2009, 10:29pm EST
The money is not gone. Those who took it, can now buy far more with it than they could before, in the way of businesses and property . . . this ain't over, it's just begun. The "unethical", will now take what the ethical have built, cause that money ain't gone, like the rest . .
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La Lady Lisa Westerfield Jan 31, 2009, 10:42pm EST
One of the best articles I have ever read on Gather and I can't even give you a ten because you turned off the ratings. I understand of course, but I so wish I could give you more than this simple comment.
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Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jan 31, 2009, 10:54pm EST
Those mortgage instruments that were being traded were an impossibility, without this.
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Dannielle S. Jan 31, 2009, 10:55pm EST
John Knight has a point, which dovetails with what Bart H. said in his article: the land grab, which began with Katrina and Rita, can now commence. Those who still have money to spend can probably purchase anything they want, now, from the rest of us who will be grateful for whatever we can get. Land will be gobbled up.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jan 31, 2009, 11:09pm EST
The gobbling has been going on for years - thanks to infomercial programs on how to take advantage of others. "Investors" swooped up properties at a fraction of their value, rented them at ridiculous rates which they used to pay off their debt or to buy more, put a little into sprucing them up before the sold them so they could run up the market in the area, and made housing unaffordable unless people settled for the bad loans . . .

And now they own everything, average people can't afford housing, and the people they trambled can't afford to rent from them.
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Stephanie B. Jan 31, 2009, 11:12pm EST
When we talk about mortgages above one's means, let's not forget the realty speculation TH alluded to. When a regular family has to come up with 7XX,XXX to find a two bedroom home in some areas, what do you expect them to do? It's not poor people who did that. Housing in many parts of this country was completely outrageous and, as Dannielle said, those same speculators, those that squirreled away all the real money paid for fantasies, will make another fortune buying up properties that have ridiculous mortgages for the property's real value.
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flit . Jan 31, 2009, 11:16pm EST
one of the things that makes me want to puke about the whole mess is that you know that all of the stocks that have been ditched by panicked, smaller investors are being bought up for next to nothing by those very same very rich ~people without ethics, morals or a conscience~ ....who will be the ones to benefit when the market starts to recover.

I am refusing to sell off any of my stocks just on principle.
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Joe T. Jan 31, 2009, 11:23pm EST
"Healthy Americans are valuable. High-quality education is valuable. Renewable energy sources are valuable. Roads and bridges are valuable. Water, air and land are far more valuable when they're clean and can support living things."

I just love this conclusion in your article, TH. And, I find it curious that you say that "justice" is another subject. I think justice is a principle that was sorely lacking with the excesses of the past ten years. It takes laws to keep people honest. People do not police themselves. People need to know that the law is not on their side when they choose to rape the public of their money.

I think that real estate is still a good buy, even in this economy. The problem that you saliently point out is the people who turned over houses for profit. Those profits were at the expense of sound communities. Laws need to be in place to prevent that from ever happening again. I think that you agree with me that the problem is directly related to the deregulation of the financial industry. That deregulation mentality can finally be put to rest so that this country can rebuild and gain something that means something.

Finally, I agree with Sandy whose comment appeared on my feed. When housing became a commodity rather than the building block of sound family investment, things started going south.
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Doc, in the middle, holding on... Curmudgeon esq. Jan 31, 2009, 11:33pm EST
actually.. "They took those profits out of the total pool of money and pocketed them. By the time it was discovered that those financial instruments had little or no real value, it was too late. Enormous amounts of money had been drained out of the pool under false pretenses. A lot of the money that was drained out was sheltered from taxation and siphoned into private offshore accounts. For all practical purposes, it's gone."

is NOT right.. every stinking dollar is trackable.. if the gubbermint had any guts and wasn't colluding they could VOID those tranactions as FRAUD and reclaim (even if they had to seize assets onshore) a goodly portion of it..

BUT... they are hand in till with the ponzi's and the scammers.. both parties, all walks of ideology.
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("Gather Site Street-Walking Cheetah")Dorian T. Jan 31, 2009, 11:49pm EST
A would-be 10.
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Jane S. Feb 1, 2009, 12:40am EST
I agree with Doc C. It can be tracked.
I say it can be brought back. The guilty can fill the prisons. The price of housing can fall into a more realistic range instead of trying to prop up those inflated prices. People who own a house financially "under water" can have it revalued and that mortgage revalued. Those who ripped us off are trying to just wring out the last drop of blood.
When Wall Street devalues it is a good thing. We were stable when Wall Street was around 5000 and houses were a tenth of that they are now. Personally I think there is more planning at the top to this mess than this article would indicate but it did do a good job of clarifying this mess.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 6:29am EST
While I was sawing logs several rooms away, some sharp folks found this article. You've busted me. It isn't really as simple as I've tried to portray here. In fact, it's so complicated that scholars will require decades to sort out all the facts and present another generation with an accurate and meaningful analysis of what really happened. Even then, the truth will be far from simple, and there will be much disagreement about what it really means.

In my defense, I did mention at the outset that the situation is so complex that trying to wrap one's mind around it all usually leads to confusion. The only thing I really hoped to accomplish with this little essay was to sneak a few things which can be identified as true out from under the mountain of things which are much harder to pin down. These few simple truths are far from the whole story.

Once my brain is up and running for the day, I'll try to respond to each of the points raised in the comments here. I'm not a financial expert. I just try to pay attention, and to sort things out in a way which shuns ideology in favor of pragmatism to the extent it's humanly possible. It isn't that I don't have any ideological leanings of my own. It's just that I believe we can't come together and find a way out of this mess—an effort which will require nearly all of us working together—unless we set those leanings aside. I'm trying to do my part, as best I can.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 7:13am EST
Stephanie B. said "We tried investing in false promises and they led us here. We either invest in the real value of this country - it's citizens - or we fail. It means something that Obama understands this."

I agree completely. But I'm going to tie a rope to that simple truth, hold tight to that rope, and venture out a bit.

There is more than one way to invest in the citizens of this country, the sole source of its value. There's the way you and I prefer—a system in which everyone who participates receives a reasonable share of the benefits, and the more one gives of oneself, the more rewards one reaps. The other option is one in which a small caste of rich and powerful people reserve most of the benefits and rewards for themselves, doling out just enough rewards to the masses to keep them alive and working (mostly). As much as I despise the latter, and feel in my heart that it can't last indefinitely, I honestly believe that such a system can be put into place. It can be supported and protected for generations, before the masses find the strength, the will and the unity to rise up and remove the elite class. The fact that such a system will inevitably fail after a few decades, perhaps a century at the outside, gives me no comfort whatsoever.

I think President Obama gets this, and it means a lot to me too.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 7:44am EST
Kris M. said "I'm furious at how this country manages to blame the poor for everything that affects them, be it lousy and uninsured health, foreclosure, a need for more social programs, or even big fat asses, while the rich, who shoved us into this mess headfirst, get none of the blame that's coming to them."

When I brought up the issue of escalating real-estate values, house-flipping and the cashing out of equity, I risked sounding like I think everyone is equally guilty. I don't really believe that, but in trying to keep this simple I didn't really make that clear. The single largest driving force behind the whole real estate collapse was the lenders. They needed properties to keep turning over at a faster and faster rate, with the values increasing with each turnover, in order to feed their greed. That doesn't mean everyone else is an innocent pawn, but it does mean that the majority of Americans participated in one way or another. And there are varying levels of culpability across the spectrum of participants.

At the bottom of the pyramid are the hard-working families who simply wanted to improve their lot a little bit over time. They are the least guilty of wrongdoing. They saw a system which had evolved to the point where most of their options for increasing their means had disappeared, but this one remained. They could increase the value of their homes by making improvements, sell them, and use the proceeds to give their children a college education, get a car that doesn't break down once a week, take a long-postponed vacation, put something away for retirement, etc... .

The productivity of American workers has been rising at a remarkable rate for decades, but wages have remained static. Working harder would no longer get you anywhere. The essentials, like health care, education, commodities such as food and energy, and much more all became more expensive out of proportion to Americans' ability to pay for them. We were left with only one asset which the markets considered to hold any value—our homes. So we used them for leverage.

Now, we are losing our homes at a fantastic rate. The last thing we own of value is slipping away. I don't believe for a moment that this is just a coincidence. I'm not one for vast conspiracy theories, but there is some intentionality behind this. For a small number of very powerful people, it is unacceptable to have anything of value held outside of their control. When they see anything valuable, and realize that someone else owns it, they have to take it away. That's because things of value hold power, and they cannot accept anyone but themselves holding any power. The very idea frightens them, and their fears rule their philosophy.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 8:03am EST
Let me be clear about one thing. Those who act to manipulate society and its systems in ways which will ultimately lead to an aristocratic/plutocratic model aren't just sitting back thinking 'wouldn't it be cool if we owned everything and everyone had to do what we say?'. They do it because they are driven by their unusual psychology to do it. They need it more than they need anything else. The only thing that makes them feel secure and happy is control and order. They can never have enough control and order to be satisfied. Someone else sharing the control frightens them, and their ideology (and by extension, their actions) are fear-driven. Any potential threat to order is a very personal threat to them. It is unacceptable and intolerable.

It's an extreme, and in my opinion very sick, extension of more mainstream conservative thinking. To be fair, there is some pretty sick thinking on both extreme ends of the political spectrum. For a good primer on the roots of liberal and conservative philosophies, I highly recommend this short talk by Johnathan Haidt.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 8:40am EST
John Knight said "The money is not gone. Those who took it, can now buy far more with it than they could before, in the way of businesses and property"

Yeah, it's complicated. Some of the money has filtered down the economic pyramid. It's been taken, then spent, many times over. There are so many levels to how this thing worked, and at many of those levels there are people who were just doing what they were being paid to do. They didn't make corporate policy, they just followed orders. That much of the money is untrackable, but it's still in the system. It isn't worth as much now, because the real value it used to represent has disappeared. But the money itself hasn't disappeared.

Then there's the people who did make corporate policy. They designed the financial instruments which created this mess. They actively and purposefully worked to disable and circumvent the system's built-in fail-safes so they could profit from their phony financial instruments. They bought politicians, manipulated public policy and lied to the American public. As their reward, the made more money in less time than anyone ever has in the history of this country. They couldn't possibly spend all that money, so they hid it. They still have it. I believe they have plans for that money, and those plans don't include funding the restoration of the middle class.

I actually do believe that the worst offenders at the top of the pyramid could be identified. Their roles in this mess could be tracked in detail. They could be held accountable, and forced to fund the rebuilding of what they have destroyed. But it isn't going to happen. For one thing, there weren't any laws specifically making what they did illegal. To prosecute them under the law, in a fair and open manner, would require some creative interpretation of the laws against usury and theft. Our legal system has never been big on interpreting the laws in ways which make getting stinking rich illegal, regardless of how it's done. People are generally only found guilty of a crime in the pursuit of wealth when the laws are so clear that a conviction is absolutely unavoidable.

In addition, they executed their schemes with the knowledge and assistance of many of our elected officials (to varying degrees). That means there is little political will to drag all the details of what they did into the light of day. A lot of the people in charge of deciding whether or not to pursue prosecutions would come out of that process looking like corrupt hypocrites. If we took an extreme stand against corruption and hypocrisy in government, we'd have to remove at least half our elected officials from office. The anarchy that would result would be worse than the status quo. More corrupt hypocrites would maneuver their way into the power vacuum. If we let most (but not the worst) of the corrupt hypocrites who ran things stay in office, at least we have a chance of scaring them into being less corrupt and hypocritical in the future. And we wouldn't have to endure a complete breakdown of society in order to get where we want to be—with more honest and transparent leadership.

I think President Obama gets this too. And I'm grateful.

So what can we do about those puppet masters and their huge stores of cash? I don't know. We may not be able to take back the money, but we can take away a lot of their power. We can innovate our way to a new order in which we aren't slaves to the giant multinationals. We can give the next generation a better education than we had. We can keep people and the planet they live on in better condition. Anything which increases our options also reduces our dependence on the plutocrats, and takes away some of their power over us.
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Peter Joseph Swanson Feb 1, 2009, 9:12am EST
"I think President Obama gets this too. And I'm grateful."

Amen to that !!!
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Chris W. Feb 1, 2009, 10:06am EST
Time heals, I think I agree with your explanation of the phenomenon we are experiencing. It's an ugly truth that when humpty dumpty shatters, there is no quick, easy, painless, or cheap way to reassembe him. That was one of our mistakes, asking the rhetorical question "What's the worst thing that could happen." We asked that question repeatedly as if the correct answer were "Nothing bad at all". The real answer was "Utter disaster", of course, and that's what we have now.

The value of the few stocks that we own, inherited from my dad when he died ten years ago, has sunk from around 50,000 to 30,000. meanwhile, Lenders uses bailot money to buy a private jet and to decorate offices. The golden rule: the guy with the gold makes the rules. Deregulation has not thrilled me.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 11:24am EST
Aniko - I'm impressed by your at-hand knowledge of Marxist theory, its practice, and the results. Thank you for addressing the issue with clarity and simplicity. While I have a good grasp of the basics and many of the historical details, I wouldn't have been able to do the subject any justice without abandoning other issues in the process. Have I mentioned how nice it is to have you around?

Lisa - Thank you. Your comment means more than a Gather rating ever could.

Ron - Without question, the Bush/Cheney administration enabled the forces which created our economic collapse. I don't think it was just a happy coincidence, either. They partnered with their counterparts in private industry to remake the system, intentionally. The only reason they didn't succeed is that their own greed made them stupid. They pushed too hard, too quickly, and without much concern for covering their tracks. They felt so entitled, and they saw their cause as so much a part of the natural order of things, that they bungled it badly. They underestimated opposition to their vision of a new world order. They overestimated their own ability to control the opposition with lies and ideological manipulation.

Sounds a lot like how they handled the Iraq war, I'd say.
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Lainie - Just Lainie Feb 1, 2009, 11:27am EST
Can you put a price tag on "justice" for me, TH?

I think you did a great job explaining how all of this works and how it's all come about. We're in a pickle.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 11:33am EST
Dannielle and Sandy - it's the Shock Doctrine in practice, right in our own back yards. I can't overestimate how important it is for everyone to understand how the Shock Doctors and New Friedmanites work. They aren't nearly as arrogant and prone to bungling as Bush/Cheney. They're much more careful, thorough and smart. They take a longer view than the cadre of morons who have been using the White House as a base of operations for the last 8 years. Of all those responsible for the global economic instability we're now dealing with, the Shock Doctors are the ones who have the best chance of succeeding in the long run. They aren't in the least bit concerned about the changing of the guard in Washington. Their plans have been aided by having slack-jawed tools in the White House, but they don't depend on it.
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Steve Bachman Feb 1, 2009, 12:07pm EST
None of this mess would have been possible without the fascist central banking cartel's funny-money system.

Regressive wealth redistribution is built into the Federal Reserve System; as with all institutionalized fractional-reserve/fiat money/central-banking systems.

Paper money is inherently conducive to plunder and fraud. Artificial expansion of money and credit confers no benefits upon society; it serves only to benefit a select few, at the expense of everyone else. When you lose purchasing power during periods of inflation; when the exchange value of the fruits of your labor diminishes, as the money which is the medium, measure and storehouse of that value depreciates; that purchasing power does not just vanish into the ether. It is merely reallocated to Wall St. and Washington DC.

And the regressive wealth redistribution isn't the end of the artificially-induced hardship and suffering that the people are forced to endure on account of this insidious legalized plunder operation. Artificial credit expansion necessarily leads to an inherently unsustainable condition; every artificially-induced, illusory "boom" must necessarily be followed by a recessionary "bust." The manipulation of interest rates by the central-planners at the Fed (price-fixing which never seems to be referred as what it is by politicians and mainstream media pundits) effectively distorts the vital market signals that people rely on to guide the structure of production; it constitutes a sabotaging of the market's ability to function properly. Just like any other form of government price-fixing, the manipulation of the interest rate sets in motion a train of inevitable, undesirable (and at times disasterous) consequences. The inevitable result is systematic clusters of malinvestment, followed by uncomfortable jolts of economic reality as these clusters of errors are revealed, and then a necessary period of liquidation (what is known as "recession") as markets begin the process of correction.
The period of correction can be quite painful, but it is absolutely essential that it be allowed to run its course as quickly, and as unobstructed, as possible. The quicker all the malinvestment is liquidated, the faster markets are able to clear, then the sooner society can begin rebuilding the economy on a firm, stable foundation based on reality.
But, as history has shown -- and, unfortunately, as we are now witnessing again -- politicians (and the interested corporate rent-seekers who rely on them as a means of siphoning and expropriating unearned wealth to themselves) are loathe to allow this to happen. The sentiment always emanating from Washington DC is "We have to do something", it's never -- as it ought to be -- "We have to un-do something." It's always a matter of imposing ever more state intervention upon markets, as a means of attempting to solve or mitigate the undesirable consequences of previous state interventions.
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Janna R. Feb 1, 2009, 12:40pm EST
"I still have some stupid and offensive things lingering in my drafts folder."
Time Heals, Jan 31, 2009, 6:59pm EST

Excellent! (As was this; I've been lurking.)
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Kris M. Feb 1, 2009, 12:45pm EST
Just came back to see how this had progressed, and I should clarify that I didn't mean that particular snap about "everybody" to be directed at you. Nothing you said made me think you were one of the people blaming the poor for the issue -- it's my mistake if my comment came across that way.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 2:32pm EST
flit - we can only hope that the fund managers who are responsible for many of Americans' retirement investments will do the same. Though my investments have lost much of their value, the managers have been reluctant to sell (to my incredible relief). They just keep buying at the rate I put money in there, and that rate is unchanged. Since most of my investments are in indexed funds, they'll eventually recover much of the value they have lost. It's going to take years, but I guess I've got the time. I feel bad for folks over 60 who will either retire with a lot less money or keep working into their 70s.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 2:41pm EST
Joe - you're right that Justice is an important part of economic viability. The reason I called it another subject altogether is that economic viability is but one of a myriad of reasons we must choose to invest in real Justice. There isn't a single aspect of our lives which isn't dependent, in one way or another, on a sound system of Justice. After typing out this rant, I was reluctant to start down the road, which leads to another, even bigger rant. But I appreciate your adding to the discussion by commenting on that issue.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 2:53pm EST
Doc, Dorian and Jane - Thanks for reading and contributing. I'm not ignoring you, I'm just running down the comment thread for issues I haven't touched on yet.

Lainie - I don't think we can put an upper limit on how much we're willing to give in order to have a system based on justice. If we did, I think we'd render everything we were unwilling to give up essentially worthless. It'd be like having to choose between selling your car to buy food or keeping it and starving. If you chose the latter, you'd be a dead guy who thankfully never had to stoop to riding the bus.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 3:11pm EST
Steve - I saw your article, The Causes of Our Economic Crisis, shortly after I posted this (I stalked Sandy over there). I read it, and to be quite honest I was a bit embarrassed. You covered a lot more territory than I did, using a wider economic vocabulary, and integrated the present situation into history quite nicely. And you did it all without losing the clarity and simplicity of your core messages. I wish I could write so well.

I really appreciate your stopping by and adding to the discussion here. I highly recommend that everyone follow that link and read Steve's article. I'm trying to remember where I've heard that lurching-train analogy in reference to the way the Fed's attempts to provide much-needed regulation often end up causing more harm than good. It's one of the arguments free-market capitalists use to support deregulation. But I'm sure I've also heard it used as an argument for better, smarter regulations, which work in tandem with the markets' natural abilities to self-regulate (such as they are) instead of working at cross-purposes with them.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 3:12pm EST
Is there anyone here who doubts that not a whole lot gets past Janna?
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 1, 2009, 4:02pm EST
Is there anyone here who doubts that not a whole lot gets past Janna?

No.
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John Knight Feb 1, 2009, 5:19pm EST
Time,

"So what can we do about those puppet masters and their huge stores of cash? I don't know. We may not be able to take back the money, but we can take away a lot of their power."

I believe that there is a form of illusion underlying your reasoning in much of what you speak of here, and that this is what led you to conclude "the money is gone". It is "gone" from an illusory uncorrupted economic/governmental superstructure, which remains in a hypothetical sense, regardless of how corrupt the actual economic/governmental superstructure becomes in reality-land. It is that illusory source of power, which you are essentially counting on to save the day, so to speak.

But if control of wealth and law, have fallen into the hands of unethical people, then wealth and law will be used to protect, not overpower the unethical. Whatever degree of such control lay in the hands of those that are not in fact intent on serving the people, but rather exploiting them, which allowed the most recent plundering to occur, has been increased substantially by that plundering. Whatever remained of ethical control of wealth and law making, has been diminished, an equal amount.

In short, the IDEA of ethical governance, is being counted on to overcome the REALITY of corrupt governance. Ain't gonna happen.
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Time Heals Feb 1, 2009, 5:28pm EST
John - you're ascribing meaning to my words which isn't there, then taking the opposite extreme position, which is equally invalid. That's called a straw-man argument. I can't debate something with you when the debate is framed by two positions which I do not consider valid. You'll have to have that debate with someone else, or yourself.
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John Knight Feb 1, 2009, 5:50pm EST
Time,

The debate is over. The money ain't gone.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 1, 2009, 5:58pm EST
I think the problem might be that John imagines there is a huge pile of cash somewhere to back up the loans and assets, and that we can dig around and find that cash.
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Baby J. Feb 1, 2009, 6:09pm EST
Time Heals, interesting article. I don't believe the money is gone, the escalating prices of homes was only on paper. The bubble burst and housing prices dropped. The buildings are still there, but depending on the area, no one will pay the old inflated price.
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John Knight Feb 1, 2009, 6:11pm EST
Sandy,

You can dig around if you wish, but you better bring an army ; )
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Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Feb 1, 2009, 9:35pm EST
"John - you're ascribing meaning to my words which isn't there, then taking the opposite extreme position, which is equally invalid. That's called a straw-man argument. I can't debate something with you when the debate is framed by two positions which I do not consider valid. You'll have to have that debate with someone else, or yourself."

You catch on fast TM. Been there, done that.....endlessly, with the guy.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 1, 2009, 9:42pm EST
Baby J., please explain where the money is when the house is overpriced and no one will buy it.
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John Knight Feb 1, 2009, 10:02pm EST
Sandy,

Slowly now; THIS is the money being discussed, as "gone", or not;

"They took those profits out of the total pool of money and pocketed them. By the time it was discovered that those financial instruments had little or no real value, it was too late. Enormous amounts of money had been drained out of the pool under false pretenses."
[from this article]
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Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Feb 1, 2009, 10:34pm EST
warning Will Robinson

danger
danger!


Do not engage a straw man!
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 1, 2009, 11:00pm EST
John Knight, you can take your slowly now and shove it up your tight ass. You already bowed out of this debate when you lost a few comments ago.
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John Knight Feb 1, 2009, 11:23pm EST
I see, to be accused, is to have lost . . . interesting theory. Though if one thinks for just a moment, one would realize that accusation could be made just the same, whether I had actually done anything of the kind, or not. I stand accused, but, I plead innocent in the first degree ; )
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Time Heals Feb 2, 2009, 6:33am EST
Everything I've written here can be interpreted in more than one way. At least one of those possible interpretations is more or less accurate and makes sense. Many of the other possible interpretations are incorrect and do not make sense. The average 13-year-old could come up with at least one of those incorrect interpretations. Commenters, regardless of age, are not welcome to assign an incorrect interpretation of their choice to my words, then demand that I defend myself on that basis.

Again, dogmatic thinkers and ideological purists are the problem, not the solution. They don't establish the rightness of their positions independently, with real-world results. They do it by redefining the positions of those who disagree, so their perceived adversaries look ridiculously deluded. They, of course, come out looking like the Sole Keepers Of The Truth, by comparison. I will not be cast in the role of someone else's fantasy adversary, created specifically to fail so the fantasizer can claim a victory.
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Gary Gentry Feb 2, 2009, 11:37am EST
TH: This is a very interesting discussion - worth reading on its own, on top of your perceptive post that started it all.

You wrote: "Then there's the people who did make corporate policy. They designed the financial instruments which created this mess. They actively and purposefully worked to disable and circumvent the system's built-in fail-safes so they could profit from their phony financial instruments."
Jeff Skilling of Enron infamy (remember Enron?) knows and is guilty of precisely that. Enron made a business model of "commoditizing" everything. Creating financial instruments out of other financial instruments and marketing them as "products" ended up destroying what had been a viable energy provider. But the financial/home mortgage industry started the same scheme with an advantage that Enron didn't have: almost universal approval of home ownership and mortgages, compared to almost universal despisal of energy companies.
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Gary Gentry Feb 2, 2009, 11:44am EST
BTW, the fact that Skilling and a few of the worst Enron offenders are in jail argues for your later statements:
"I actually do believe that the worst offenders at the top of the pyramid could be identified. Their roles in this mess could be tracked in detail. They could be held accountable, and forced to fund the rebuilding of what they have destroyed."
I believe it's crucial to find a few of those worst offenders to make examples of them. Even if it's only to ridicule them in the press, as has happened to the clueless bastard who spent $1 million redecorating his office. At least it gives hope that somehow, sometime, the system can be made a little more fair.
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Time Heals Feb 2, 2009, 5:52pm EST
One comment by John Knight has been removed. He has demonstrated that he cannot, or will not, recognize the foundations of civil discussion and debate. He is no longer welcome on this thread, and any future comments he may make will also be removed.

One comment by another member has also been removed, because it was entirely a response to John Knight's comments. Any future comments addressing John Knight directly on this thread will be removed.

If anyone wants to debate with John Knight on this topic, or any other, they are free to post an article of their own and have at it.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 2, 2009, 6:06pm EST
Emme brings up one of my concerns (buy American). I haven't heard enough* to have an informed opinion, but if that is going where I suspect, I am going to agree with it for the time being. I don't think it is as dire as it sounds.

*It is such a relief to trust my President enough that I don't feel the need to sit glued to C-span any more. I'm on a short vacation but promise I will not be lazy or stupid.
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Time Heals Feb 2, 2009, 6:15pm EST
John Knight has attempted to re-post the comment I removed, and I have removed it again.
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Time Heals Feb 2, 2009, 6:20pm EST
Gary - Thank you very much. It's uncanny how much the market fraud which caused our current crisis resembles the crap Enron's officers pulled way back when. It's almost as if the federal government looked at the days when Enron was ripping off the public, before they got caught, and said 'those were the good old days... we need more of that'.

I'm with you on identifying and publicly humiliating the worst of those who created and nurtured the fraudulent 'commodities' markets. Even if we never get a solid conviction, it'd be good to see their roles in this mess exposed to the light of day for all to see.
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Time Heals Feb 2, 2009, 6:30pm EST
Emme - I like your comment too. You raise an interesting issue, regarding the current clarion call to 'buy American' as a way to support struggling companies here in the U.S.. I have mixed feelings about that as well. I'm not sure I'm ready to spell out exactly what I find so disturbing about it, but I'm giving it serious thought. In the meantime, I try to buy locally when I can (that is to say, when local merchants haven't priced themselves out of my economic bracket by their own choice).

Thanks for stopping by and pitching in.
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Time Heals Feb 2, 2009, 7:17pm EST
John Knight re-posted the comment I removed again. In addition to removing it, I will be contacting Member Services to remind him whose decision it is which comments get to stay and which ones don't.
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Janna R. Feb 2, 2009, 7:44pm EST
"One comment by John Knight has been removed."
"John Knight has attempted to re-post the comment I removed, and I have removed it again."
"John Knight re-posted the comment I removed again."

I guess he's not getting it through his head that the comment is gone.
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Time Heals Feb 2, 2009, 7:45pm EST
A comment by another member has been removed. The comment was simply a link to an article the commenter wrote which criticizes people the commenter likes to criticize, for what the commenter sees as wrongdoing on their part. This thread is not a billboard for advertising other articles, nor is it an open forum for raising criticisms not directly related to the topic of the post.

As always, anyone who wants to respond to the content of this post or its thread is free to write and post their thoughts on Gather in a manner which does not require the hijacking of this thread.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 2, 2009, 9:08pm EST
Mind if I branch off the main topic and follow up on this - (that is to say, when local merchants haven't priced themselves out of my economic bracket by their own choice).

I find myself caught in the same spot - wanting to support local but disappointed when the prices are so much higher. In the past, when we still had a few local grocers left, I made a point of stopping in occasionally to pick up a few things, and asked my neighbors to do the same, even though I couldn't afford to do all my shopping there. I have also split purchases with someone else, to do the same. If not on this thread, maybe in the future we could look into ways that we might work around this lose/lose situation, where the locals can't afford to sell at the prices we can afford, unless we can afford to buy at their prices and help them out.
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Gary Gentry Feb 2, 2009, 9:23pm EST
TH: I have crossed with John Knight on my posts, and I must say you handled him much better than I did.
"Commenters, regardless of age, are not welcome to assign an incorrect interpretation of their choice to my words, then demand that I defend myself on that basis."
Well said.
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Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Feb 2, 2009, 9:54pm EST
T.H. I learned almost two years ago to never engage John Knight. It's a never ending merry go round where he takes it farther and farther off topic.

Great thread! Lots to learn here.
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Time Heals Feb 3, 2009, 6:41am EST
Sandy - the whole Buy Local movement does seem more urgent now that so many businesses are teetering on the edge of failure, though conceptually it predates our current economic crisis. You're right—there's a lot of food for discussion there, and I'm not seeing or hearing a whole lot of discussion about it, except on NPR. They've just started a 100-day series of reports, from the length of I-75, looking at how folks are dealing with the recession. The episodes where they talk to small business owners have been great.

I've always tried to buy locally, from owner-operators or small chains, whenever it's reasonable for me to do so. The trouble is, a lot of the small businesses here have chosen to position themselves as the local alternative to bigger stores which I can't afford either. You know... buy your $100 jeans and your $5 cup of coffee from someone you know, not some big chain store. To my amusement, the nearby enclave where rich people have long gated themselves off from the rabble has, in the last few years, acquired a Wal-Mart and a Goodwill store. Funny thing, that.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 3, 2009, 7:04am EST
We're (well, the conscientious of we) working to Keep Louisville Weird because it is urgent, and we've seen Walmart and Kroger run everybody else out of town. It's exciting to see the Weird bumper stickers on cars, tee shirts on people, and signs on stores. But I hear your "buy your $100 jeans and your $5 cup of coffee from someone you know" and share what I think I hear as your refusal to buy ridiculous from anyone - even if my budget allows, I will never wear $100 jeans or drink $5 coffee, from anyone because I'm the kind of person who would wear $25 jeans and buy three pairs for the homeless with the change instead.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I want to think this is what the "buy American" message in the bill is about.
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Kathy W. Feb 3, 2009, 8:15am EST
TM, a beautiful write, and brings the topic (which is way too large for my uneconomically-based brain to decipher) to a level where I can actually string the events together.
And yes, I DO wonder at the source of these huge buckets of bucks.

Based on the way my eyes glaze over when I hear the talking heads people yammering about billions--much less TRILLIONS--of dollars, I think we have to look at this from a simpler platform. During the superbowl (which I actually watched) I wondered how full the stadium would be if we were to fill it with "change." Quarters, nickels, dimes and pennies, to show folks how big are the numbers we're talking about with the bail out.

Listening to Meet the Press, they offered up a economist who writes for some Dollars-R-Us money mag, and she said they SHOULD be able to pay out bonuses to the financial execs. Said that the bonuses were earned by bringing in new business for the company--and the employees that did that should nt be penalized for the companies failures. Well, that's where she lost me. How many companies "take out loans" to pay bonuses to account execs. If you don't have the money to run your company--yes, you should not pay bonuses. (Pretty simple, really.) She actually made it sound like a good thing. Otherwise these excellent performers, without millions in incentive based compensation, would not continue to do their jobs.

Here's the link to the conference call going down tonight, from The Prez's People, regarding the economic recovery plan; if you're interested, please copy & paste the link. There's still time to sign up. It's just a phone call, and should only last 15-30 minutes, probably.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/economicrecovery

Again, thanks for the great article.
Wilka
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 3, 2009, 9:22am EST
Said that the bonuses were earned by bringing in new business for the company-

Isn't that in the job description? How many regular people get million dollar bonuses at the end of the year for performing their jobs? And how many regular people lose their jobs if they totally fail at it?
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Gary Gentry Feb 3, 2009, 2:42pm EST
And somewhere the VIPs were quoted as saying they needed to pay those bonuses to keep their best people. "Otherwise the franchise is destroyed." The columnist provided the proper response: "Hello?! They ALREADY destroyed the franchise."
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 3, 2009, 4:25pm EST
No joke, Gary. (But I laughed anyway when I saw your comment.)
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Time Heals Feb 3, 2009, 5:30pm EST
I'm picturing a t-shirt that says

"Keep Louisville Weird" on the front, and

"Pay Sandy Knauer's Rent" on the back.
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Time Heals Feb 3, 2009, 5:42pm EST
Thanks to a timely coincidence, NPR's All Things Considered has just aired a short segment looking at the 'buy American' provision of the economic stimulus bill. The text is available at this link, and the audio will also be available after 7 p.m. this evening.
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Time Heals Feb 3, 2009, 5:55pm EST
Kathy - Thanks for your thoughtful response. Whenever I hear someone talking about how important and necessary those gigantic bonuses are for CEOs, I picture them thinking 'if someone brings up the pay ratio between CEOs and those who work for them, I'm going to bolt for the door'. It's approximately ten times what it was 30 years ago. I've heard some try to defend that escalation of the pay disparity. The argument goes that having a superstar running your company creates fantastic opportunities for profit and growth. Paying them an obscene amount of money is a big part of what gives them their 'aura' of superstardom. It isn't enough to have a superstar running your company, you have to have a bigger superstar than anyone else has. And the only way to get one and keep him/her is to pay them more than they could get anywhere else.

It's a vicious circle, really. It works because that's the way it's done, and that's the way it's done because it works. I'd like to see corporations begin moving away from the superstar CEO model, toward a results-based reputational model. If any CEOs storm off for greener pastures in response to that change, I'm sure someone who is willing to accept the new model and is just as capable as the diva who left will come along pretty quickly.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Feb 3, 2009, 6:05pm EST
I haven't seen any shirts with my name on them yet, mostly business owners and politicians get their names on the Keep Louisville Weird shirts.
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Lou Anne L. Feb 3, 2009, 9:52pm EST
WOW...First real quick before I forget. You know if the super stars want to tantrum themselves out of CEO type positions because they didn't buy them their favorite binky...I'd say TOUGHLOVE and pat that parent company on the back, and any company who didn't hire them from there on an even higher 5!

I have to say I love the simplicity of this post. You somehow have managed to speak and effectively say what I have been trying to say for years, which somehow came out of my mouth as a silent scream. BUT...I can tell you from working retail, far to many people are still hanging hard onto their blinders and that carrot dangling just out of their reach....complaining hard while charging ahead...not on needs...but on wants....H&R cards have come out of the woodwork...it scares me to see a cart with 100 dollars worth of dollar items of disposable junk and then an EBT card for 40 dollars worth of candy.

I have worked hard for the last three years to learn to say...."I don't want this"" I already have this".....

I will honestly say I do not support the bail out. It is nonsense to me in the manner in which it is being used at the moment. It is not stopping the momentum of this real reality....
since October of 2008 there are now 3 unemployed in my family of 4. The most recent....my oldest son, a college student, who's education is not being paid for by grants or scholarships, who just moved into a lesser expensive living arrangement to cut costs....got permanently laid off one week later. Maybe someone could arrange for him to be sent a care package of those little soaps and shampoos from La Vegas.
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Baby J. Feb 5, 2009, 6:02pm EST
Sandy Knauer, if the market value of a house is less than it's mortgage. In other words if you are upside down in a mortgage -- you owe more than the house is worth. The house would be overpriced in the market.
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