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Unfortunately religion has always had the dubious side effect of dividing people rather than bringing them together. You have the Muslims and the Catholics the Christians and the Mormons the Hindus and the Sikh's, the Buddhist's and the Jews, there are at least 40 world religions and faiths.
You have the obscure religions of Asia and Northern Europe, there are thousands of cults and hundreds of sects within each religion with their only common thread being that they ALL believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong. They all believe that they are the chosen of God and everyone else is damned to hell or is at least, in some way inferior.
It is actually worse than politics and in many cases religions like Christianity and Islam have sought to control vast populations by infiltrating governments. You end up with countries like Iran and American at odds with each other over religious concepts and on the edge of war, in the name of God.
Religious groups kill each other in the name of their deities and even in the name of God, whatever the name they choose to call Him. This is not just about the Crusades of old, it is happening as much in the present day as it ever did in the past, the war in Iraq is not just about oil it is about exterminating the enemies of the Christian God.
I have nothing at all against people practicing any religion they want but I am not going to agree that they are doing anything truly Spiritual, when it is obvious that they are ALL separating our world into warring religious factions and isolating people who actually have much in common with one another.
I believe the priesthoods are parasites and I know I sound like a communist as I say that but I can assure you, I feel the same way about any group that would seek to separate one man from another simply because he believes differently.
We, the people of this world will never truly know peace until we join together under the One Father of us ALL leaving no one out for any reason. Since this is a highly unlikely scenario, we must as individuals realize personally that we are ALL brothers and we are ALL very Holy and cherished by God.
Let them kill and maim as they will in the name of their Gods, they cannot really hurt you as long as you seek ONLY unity with the Sons of God who are your brothers and mine, weather they know it or not.
The Spiritual revolution starts with the beating of each human heart and spreads outward with happy laughter and a totally defenseless attitude, we prepare the way as we Love where others hate, as we understand where other find only confusion, because we never give up our Holy Minds into the worlds insane indoctrinations, we Are ALL without exception, God's beloved Children and we Live through Him and within His Love!
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Comments: 268
Seriously, if those who think they have found what works for them were content to let it work for them and not try to inflict it on others, I think there would be fewer problems. Intelligent, respectful people understand that everyone has the right to believe what they want. It's only when people think they should make public demonstrations of their beliefs that others get annoyed.
Religion, faith and spirituality are very personal, individual beliefs. As Sandy says, whatever works for someone is right for him or her. It may not be the right fit for someone else.
It's hard to hear or read someone criticizing what we hold dear. Critical comments are opinion, not necessarily fact.
What you must do to get into heaven-
1. Confess your sins to God, not a man, for only God can forgive you.
2. Ask for forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ
3. Live by the example Jesus gave, not those of other men, but Jesus.
4. Repent daily, for we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.
That is it. You don't have to witness, you don't have to go to pay out your money, you just have to love the Lord.
And what about the billions of people living on earth now who have never heard of your particular brand of religious practice? They don't know your God or your Holy Spirit or your Jesus? What happens to them???
I do disagree with much of this but understand that you have a genuine desire for all to advance forward. I hate the name 'religion' because so much of it is only that. It leaves God out. I do believe the Bible is Gods written word and nature is His revelation also. I agree with Karaokeman. But our goal, through the teachings of Christ is to love everyone. Truly love them.
You are letting your 'religion' or belief system turn you against other Robin. Like lashing out against priests. I left the Catholic church when I accepted Christ to attend Bible churchs .. but I would not lash out against a group of men that have given up much in life to serve God. You don't know their hearts. I believe many followed religion into the priesthood in stead of their faith in the finished work of Christ; they found themselves not strong enough to overcome temptation and fell (like the rest of us)
But Jesus said (Romans 2) that we are not to think other peoples sin is worse than our own. We are all law breakers and all equally guilty. As you feel we have wrong feeling toward people of different belief, your own angst is apparent toward those of us that do not believe as you do. It is something we all have to fight against.
Also (I have a different view of the crusades. That was defense and trying to take back what the political enemy had taken as their own. Religion and Politics both played a part. I know the Catholic church did do heavy handed things in times past in the name of religion ... but that isn't all Catholics.
I do not believe we went into Iraq to fight a religious war. In fact I think we have stayed separated from the mideast for a long time because we didn't want to involve ourselves with people that had such a different socio/religious/political outlook. We did not identify with them very well and their pain didn't seem as important to us as other nations more like ourown. I'm not saying our involvement is right or wrong, just disagreeing that we distain the people bcause of their religion.
There are many people of many different religions that worship the God of creation. If they have responded to God through the Spirit and submitted themselves to Him ... according to the first chapter of Romans, I believe they have submitted to Jesus Christ without knowing his name because 'all things were made by Him and without Him was nothing made." He is the God of creation. Submitting to that God doesn't mean you have to be in any particular religion. There is no way we can judge their hearts.
But hey you left me out. . . don't forget the Pagans :) (specifically those who follow pre-christian european traditions)
"ALL believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong"
Not the case with most pagans. . .we're open minded people. . . and there's an on going joke in the Pagan community, as a pagan a question about religion and you'll get five answers heh. We tend to see everything as different paths all leading to the same destination.
and thats about as spiritual as i get at this hour heh I'll come back later on in the day and elaborate.
I have many friends who are part of the priesthood of different religions, it doesn't mean I will hate the man for what he does, though I may detest his chosen profession I Love him.
As for the cleansing of Iraq, I know a crusade when I see one...
My Bible tells me that there is one way into Heaven and that's through Jesus Christ. I can't change that.
You asked another Christian what if it's not true. I ask...what if it is?
~FC
I have been told that B'hai finds a way to blend all religions together into one cohesive, believable story, incorporating the religious prophets and leaders into its beliefs but I haven't studied it enough to say exactly. Does anyone know anything about B'hai?
This was a Christian government that lied (isn't that considered a sin?) to it's own people and the world to attack a Muslim people and IMPOSE Christian Democratic ideology forcibly upon them.
Most Muslims neither understand or want any part of that Christian ideology, yet the Christians, in their usual superior way refuse to back down, admit their mistakes and allow Iraqi's to do whatever the hell they want with their own soil.
If you are fearful of Muslims you are frightened of the wrong guys, Christians are much more deadly, deceptive and unforgiving, and they have proven it historically time and time again with their superior hatred for the so-called infidel.
Look at them, they had the whole world there for a moment, then Henry XIII put a stop to that but look what came of that. Factions, my god how many different Christianities can there possibly be on one tired old planet???
Religion is a farce no matter how you look at it, it causes separation and annomosity between brothers and it's ridiculous superstitions have held intelligent science back a 1000 years. Yes it's true, we would be 1000 years more advanced had Christianity not enslaved us with their fear and moral judgment.
I am not blaming the Pope or the aristocracy, I'm not blaming the priesthood or even the corrupt polititions, as far as I can tell, everyone on earth is doing the best he can with what he knows.
I'm just saying, OK people, religion was a bad and isolating idea, lets just admit we were wrong and get on with life in the here and now without all the devices we have used to separate ourselves from one another.
Let grow into a new age where mankind accepts himself and his natural unity with his brother in God!
Hold yourself apart from that as much as you like by believing what you are told by priests and dusty old books of mythology. I am certain you are One with me whatever you happen to think or say, because I am certain of Love...
"The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or tradition; the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, class or national; the harmony which must exist between religion and science; the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird of humankind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education; the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of justice as the ruling principle in human society, and of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme goal of all mankind—these stand out as the essential elements [which Bahá'u'lláh proclaimed].[24]"
Would indicate a very good religion, as far as "religions" go ... but it is still a religion and thus a "brand" ... true spirituality is personal and thus "generic" (as is God), thus the "better" way to go ... IMnsHO.
I could equally have used the terms Mother, daughters and sisters and been just as happy with my article however in general society, (witch Gather is) the masculine is less intrusive of the actual content because it is most often used...
Forgive yourself and do not be so concerned with assassination based solely on what you think you think someone else is saying...
Pax
I am so tired of war in the name of religion. I don't believe that is why we were put here on earth.
...but as I was saying, I admire those that have such strong conviction and devotion to their Gods or causes when most us can be swayed one way or the other by curtain political ads or News"articles".
Way to go religious zealot! Now, Just stop using bombs and start using words!
I could equally have used the terms Mother, daughters and sisters and been just as happy with my article however in general society, (which is what Gather is) the masculine is less intrusive of the actual content because it is most often used...
I am sad however that my explanation of why I did what I did, did not allay your fears that I am sexist. Using it to describe God or my brothers/sisters would have brought more controversy into my article not less, it would also have taken away from the actual points I was attempting to make.
forgive me!
Debates can be good when one respects the source and when the source can articulate an objective, respectful, and constant theme. Otherwise, what is the point; what good can come of it; where valuable time becomes time wasted in damage control. God is pure love – it's man who starts war in God's name, not God. When the enlightened live their lives in the Light, it is by their example that the world will be changed for the better. It is contingent upon all of us to know the difference.
It's ridiculous, and these days scary too. Years ago you could tell religious jokes and everyone would laugh. In fact you can still tell Christian or Jewish jokes between faiths and everyone laughs. Catholics laugh at Pope jokes, Jews laugh at Rabbi jokes, but just try saying something about Moham-whatshisname and the bedsheet brigade from the dark ages will call for you to be stoned or have your head chopped off.
Seems to me the whole world has gone mad, and not only that, more and more people are being sucked into a dark age way of living, where people are turned into serfs, brainwashed, forced to do what they are told with no freedoms... I fail to understand how this can happen.
How can someone come from a 3rd world country where people live with great hardships and oppression, come to America, England, or any other major country in the West, and not appreciate how much better life is there. How can they be so brainwashed to want to tear it apart and take the whole world back to a path of destruction.
People of one sect never used to violate each others churches (well lets forget the black/white situation in the southern states at least which was caused by a true minority). People never used to blow themselves up, or worse innocent women and children. Now it's spreading across the globe. No respect for life at all.
I'm not so sure I want to be around for another 50 years to see the whole world slide into oppression and heavily fortified borders to keep people out for such horrible reasons.
Religion is the slave of political priesthoods, it is a capitalist invention to enslave and terrorize the masses through superstition and fear.
Do you think the extremely well educated wealthy people and priesthoods really believe that Jesus was a virgin birth or that the physical resurrection happened, of course they don't, they understand the scientific impossibility of such nonsense.
However the ignorant uneducated masses will believe anything especially if it will give them the hope of entering paradise at the end of their miserable lives, hey they will even pay to keep their delusional thought systems in tact.
The Papacy are laughing their asses off at the ignorant multitudes they fleece around the world and so are the dominant, well educated priesthood in the other religions.
This is about MONEY simple as that and they are NOT going to back off...
When you ask what all this terrible violence religions have caused, you generally get vague references to stuff like the Spanish inquisition, which was an extortion scheme, to force wealthy people to pay up, or get a going over by a phony court of phony "experts" on the Bible. It was used on and off for several centuries, to line the pockets of the strong men in power, and resulted in about four thousands deaths. They cooked that many on a slow day at Auschwitz, while the ovens raged in the glorious example of "Godless" Nazi barbarism.
And you've got your wonderful irreligious instances of communism, shipping tens of millions out to the Siberian tundra, and plenty more shining examples of what folks DON'T compare religion to. Id doubt most religion bashers could even name a war fought over religion, and the three branches of the Abrahamic God have been at peace for centuries. But if they can make any connection at all to any religion in any way, they claim the war would never have happened, as if the world was filled with billions of little angels, oppressed by those nasty old religions. Pathetic.
"Oh no", say the big hearted anti-religion spewers, "What about Israel and the Palestinians?". Um, for your information, Israel is among the least religious societies on earth, and so are the Palestinians. Religion has virtually nothing to do with that smoldering conflict, and nobody is trying to convert anyone to their way of approaching God.
But the rumors are great fun, and nobody bites back, so what the hell, preach your homemade gibberish about love, and kick a Christian.
Hitler
Many modern tyrants, whether petty tyrants such as Richard Nixon, or more successful tyrants such as Hitler, have regarded themselves as exemplary Christians, an estimate their followers had no trouble accepting. Hitler's religiosity -- he was a Catholic until his death -- is often glossed over, but it is critical in understanding his motivation.
I have often reflected, wistfully, on how much happier modern history might have been had Hitler been brought up as an atheist, an agnostic, or, at least, a Unitarian. Born and bred a Catholic, he grew up in a religion and in a culture that was anti-semitic, and in persecuting Jews, he repeatedly proclaimed he was doing the "Lord's work."
You will find it in Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."
Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."
In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."
-- From a paper by Anne Nicol Gaylor
Idi Amin
His mother, according to Guweddeko, was called Assa Aatte (1904–1970), an ethnic Lugbara and a traditional herbalist who among others treated members of Buganda royalty. He joined an Islamic school in Bombo in 1941, where he excelled in reciting the Qur'an. After a few years he left the school, and did odd jobs before being recruited to the army by a British colonial army officer.
-- From the Wikipedia
Bush
President Bush is a Methodist and has been very open about the role of faith in his life. Below are selections from recent speeches and interviews in which he mentions his faith or religious topics.
On God, War, and Freedom
"Freedom is on the march in this world. I believe everybody in the Middle East desires to live in freedom. I believe women in the Middle East want to live in a free society. I believe mothers and fathers want to raise their children in a free and peaceful world. I believe all these things, because freedom is not America's gift to the world, freedom is the almighty God's gift to each man and woman in this world."
--Speech in Pennsylvania, October 22, 2004
They all thought I think they were are doing their idea of their Lords Work...
Need I go on John, the list is endless of world dominator's who use religion to exterminate their enemies... These are but 4 that came immediately to mind, be sure that the dear=th camp in Nazi Germany were operated by good Christian men and woman...
BTW The great Christian President runs Concentration Camps in various strategic locations around the world even NOW!
Oh, I see, you take such folk at their word, brilliant.
I am quoting from Bushes ON THE RECORD speech, do you know what on the record means John?
And the Wikipedia which is considered a very reputable source...
I could not possibly be any clearer...??????
I hate to shatter any illusions, but what a politician says in public, sometimes does not bear out under scrutiny. Mr. Bush says a lot of things ON THE RECORD, but it would be rather easy to demonstrate they are not all truths. If you wish to believe that man about something so easily faked as his religious sentiments, being perfectly aware that he could not possibly have been elected (twice no less) without saying he was Christian, that's your business.
With Hitler, we have the writing of Martin Bormann, among others, who recorded OFF THE RECORD conversations, wherein Mr. Hitler clearly expresses his disdain for religion, and says many things no Christian would dare speak, to wit;
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity."
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/religion.htm
Scanning the public pronouncements of people you consider disreputable, looking for ways to badmouth religion, is about as obvious a flaw in ones reasoning that one can make. We ALL know political leaders will say what the majority of their populous wants to hear.
You are telling me that off the record talks with Hitler are more true than actually documented on the record excerpts from Mein Kampf, the most famous book in the world next to the bible?
I really enjoy watching you John - You say the coolest stuff, it makes little sense but its cool.
Again, I hate to upset your dreamworld, but this is how it works;
Christians have a motive not to lie, by claiming to be non-Christians. This however, does not mean a person who does not take religion seriously, and is casual about lying, is under any particular pressure in regard to claiming to be Christian. Remember? If they're not religious, there's no inherent risk in their mind, with claiming to be religious. They don't believe there's a God to get pissed at them!
Get it? It's kinda like a one-way street. Like what you're doing in this article; You, as a non-Christian, can speak as nasty and mean-spirited as you like, about Christians, but they are under some rather limiting guidelines that don't allow them to do such things to anyone.
Like when I told you on that article where you were lecturing Christians about how you were sure the Bible custodian types musta screwed up, cause you thought some words should be added to the declaration by Jesus, that; "With God, all things are possible". And I told you I could not image myself going to some Muslims, and pointing our how their people must have messed up, cause I figured some words were missing from a passage in the Koran.
And I can just barely believe there are people so silly as to believe a politician's public pronouncements are to be taken more seriously than their private ones. This is so illogical, I have no way to fix it.
Though my spirituality never waned, as I progressed into adulthood and consciousness of the larger picture I began to question some of the contradictions within the Christian faith. One of the earliest questions I had was those of Native Americans and the Catholic agenda to teach them the "truth". I did not understand how they could be punished for worshiping things like the Sun, the Tree, and the Animals that provided them with their very livelihood. I thought about all the Native Americans that did not have "the privilege" of having their land stolen from them and consequentially hearing "the word of God", I wondered how it would be possible, based on everything the Christian Church had taught me, that these human beings could be denied a path to Heaven. Something just wasn't right.
To those Christians who want to condemn me as they read this, know that I have my Papa's Bible in plain sight right now. I will often pick it up when I feel I am in need of reading Jesus' teachings and the messages left to me in this book, however, I believe my Papa, who I have felt looking after me since his death, understands the truth in his afterlife. He does not condemn me for my intelligence or my quest for truth. Religion is a lie. Spirituality and the Love that you give to other human beings, regardless of anything, is the Truth. That is what Jesus taught. It is disheartening to me that a lot of Christians miss that point.
Once again, Brava Robin!
My box? Sir, you just accused me of something you have absolutely no way to ascertain, but for your own imagination. That's your box, not mine.
Do not flatter yourself that you are complicated in any way, funny yes even hysterical at times but not complicated in the least...
Now I really MUST Sleep...
"Religion is the slave of political priesthoods, it is a capitalist invention to enslave and terrorize the masses through superstition and fear.
Do you think the extremely well educated wealthy people and priesthoods really believe that Jesus was a virgin birth or that the physical resurrection happened, of course they don't, they understand the scientific impossibility of such nonsense. "
---------------------
You are definitely right there Robin, 95% of religion (or more) is man made rules, just to keep the masses in order and to feed the priesthood. Doesn't matter whether it's the Jews or Christians, or the Maya, or any other civilization new or old, it's always been the same.
I'm very open minded as to what I believe God is, and I have always had a deep interest in ancient civilizations too. I am very excited on the one hand about the continued discoveries about man's early past, and the fact that the "Gods Of Old" were probably real beings, not just deities created by the Sumerians, Egyptians, and later the Greeks and Romans etc.
Lots of interpretations of ancient Sumerian texts mention the Annunaki, "those who came down to earth", and they are also mentioned in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, which for the most part is a very summarized version of earlier Sumerian texts.
What if this is all true? What if the "Gods Of Old" did come from another world, and created man genetically as a hybrid worked between themselves and a more primitive ape-like being on earth? It's quite possible if you read enough of the ancient stories (for example the works of Zecharia Sitchin - The Earth Chronicles). But that means God isn't some mystical magical being that looks over us and sees everything - well not in the traditional religious sense... It's a scary and very humbling thought isn't it...
I don't know whether it's becuase I'm a Libran, and have to weigh everything up, and because I have a logical mind, but I just don't believe everything that I am told and blindly accept it. I'm prepared to accept that miracles do happen, and there are still strange things on this earth thsat can't be explained (Ghosts, UFO's just to name a couple), but my logical brain tells me that these ancient stories must be based on truth.
It's evident that the further back you go in "known" time, the more the ancients understood about the stars. I think it's a bit naive to put this down to the fact that cavemen had nothing better to do than to lie on their backs every night, don't you?
So what if we were created by some advanced peoples millenia ago?
Maybe that's one thing that the Pope and other religious leaders around the world REALLY don't want the masses to believe.
Interesting thought............
But you are right, if we are to believe all the nonsense about virgin births, raising of the dead, partings of the sea and arcs full of animals to name a few of the anomalies we are asked to "take on faith" by religion, is it such a stretch to also think that the ancients are an alien race from the stars (like the Asgard of the Stargate television series) that came down to earth and seeded it with human DNA?
It's at least more plausible, science tells me matter of factly that dead IS dead and virgins cannot conceive, (unless, god forbid Mary was a little whore who lied about the whole thing?) it tells me that humans need a lot of heavy machinery to part great bodies of water and that there are definitely NO Kiwis or Kangaroos in the middle east, nor any evidence that there ever have been. (Takes breath...)
Any think man with half a brain can see the thousands of flaws and impossibilities in the so called Holy Bibles, scriptures, books, tracts and whatever other paraphernalia religions are pushing these days. All the churches in Mexico are great palaces of gold, and velvet, high domed ceilings and that gaudy statuary, it just goes on forever? Ever wonder what thats about? Why can't we pray to this almighty Christian God in an open field? Why do we need to be impressed with the great wealth of the priesthoods before we will submit to their iron rule?
I just want you to question it a little...
It was all good while the Catholic church still had so much political power that it could outlaw and even slaughter the good men and woman of science (in the name of God of course) they artificially retarded our natural curiosity and evolutionary progress.
But that is NOT the case anymore and it behooves every thinking man and woman to LOOK at the evidence now available and think for themselves, is all this hokus pokes really a viable base on which to trust my eternal soul...???
I mean isn't one fantasy story as good as another?
Ah, perhaps a little insight into why our founders chose to use terms such as Creator, and Providence, rather than "God." Although in league with many Christians, I think we can understand they realized a secular government was needed to prevent the " God appointed" monarchs of the past from taking over again.
Wilka
Thanks for your input on that guys, I have read deeply in those areas also and they really fit the "whole" picture and round it all out !!!
THIS is our common ground Robin....well said!
We prefer the terms humankind and humans--or the collective "people," etc. if you use sexist terms for ease of reading...then that becomes an innate issue for us. Easy, as you know, is not always better. It's always been easier to ignore the issues, has it not always been so? Perhaps it is time to change the language in which we write, if not speak. wo/men s/he is acceptable, universally...
Please don't take this as criticism...just passing thoughts on a sensitive issue for some.
I await J Knight, or Jjack's driveby on my comment here.
Blessed be,
Wilka
I agree with your position, and applaud you for speaking on topic.
Wilka
This entire world reality has been one big conspiracy when you look at the history of religion and what that has brought us !!!
Religions have of course appropriated the best of mans, oops sorry, HUMANKIND'S qualities and called them their own. But these abstract principals such as Love and Kindness, Forgiveness and Karma, were around with the dawning of our species and will be with our kind forever.
I'm not denying your friend their religion, I'm just clarifying that the origins of our experience has little to do with religion except that, religions tend to co-opt everything they can that is of use to them in the greater scheme.
I am 100% with you on this. Though I have never personally experienced oppression I have sought to understand those that do, the grind, the absolute throbbing pain that they feel in their march towards freedom is clearly understood by me and I do not wish to be the cause of such horror in anyone even in the smallest degree.
So I promise to faithfully use language that will not do harm in this way, in future...
It is a true pleasure to Gather with you!