That is to say, pure Capitalism SUX! It sucks money out of the economy into a much smaller economy of the wealthy. A goodly number of Gatherites have made a religion out of "pure" Capitalism. They pound thread after thread with the dogma of a single-minded economic theory as the only answer to our present woes.
We used to have a very real purely Capitalistic economy. People died by the thousands because of it. Meanwhile, the saints of this religion, the Robber Barons, sucked money out of society and squirreled it away in their own personal accounts, vaults and insanely sybaritic houses. The biggest problem with "pure" Capitalism is that money doesn't really circulate in the economy. It only circulates among the incredibly rich.
During our experiment with "pure" Capitalism, the Rockefellers, Mellons, Astors, VanderBilts, etc., became obscenely wealthy, while people worked 12-hour days, six and a half days a week (Sunday mornings off for church, and God help you if you didn't go and the foreman found out,,,). The country ran on a small property tax paid primarily by a barely-out-of-poverty landowner class, and people who had to work for a living had to have their entire families at work, including children as young as five or six years old. Illness was not permitted to workers, nor was injury. Not that they were forbidden, or that there was supremely good health care. If you got sick and stayed home, or got injured, you were simply no longer a worker.
And you wonder why the Old Man and others like him created unions? Now that the unions are nearly dead, barely three generations after their creation, we're headed back there. People my age and younger seem to think that's a good idea. Since they're the ones constantly quoting the "those who do not learn from history..." line, I won't repeat it for them.
I will, however, say this. NONE of you deserves what you think you want - because I don't believe you have any idea what you're asking for. If you return this country to the "pure" Capitalism you so warmly extoll, you'll regret it before the year is out, to an extent you cannot even begin to imagine. And THAT'S the future Ron Paul and his ilk would give you... the future of the past.
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Comments: 151
Want to take a trip down memory lane? Just look at the real history of Appalachia and the open warfare that existed as workers tried to organise and make a living wage and break away from the company store that took the few pennies away from their workers and put them right back into the robber barons pockets.
We had good laws against child labor but that was when political and corporate hacks had to submit to laws now we have nothing, if a law gets in the way they just ignore it.
We allowed legislation that says 18 and older are adults when they have not grown out of their adolescent years yet. This scam works good with teenagers , it fits with the ego trips all teenagers have always suffered from. Children at birth are given social security numbers now and children are allowed to work in retail stores and take work away from families that need income to buy necessities to live not just the latest x box toy. Throwing millions of children into the work force give the corporate robbers all the leverage they needed to keep wages and benefits at the lowest standard of any free world nation. Want a raise? Theirs the door NEXT.
Its hard to understand how these "pure capitalism" followers can support a system that spits on their own followers all day, everyday.
No, Appalachia holds no news, no instruction, no terrors for me.
One of the basics of education in America that is lacking is a class on real history.
Unlike Republicans (neo con ones) I am in favor of unions and union contracts with management. Believe it or not when they finally gave in the companies discovered they made more by working their employees fewer hours and giving them some time away from work. Efficiency went up and employees became more loyal to their work.
I draw two pensions (small) from the Electrical Workers Union because I spent 11 years as a journeyman electrician and worked with the tools.
That is one reason I say there must be a balance. Unions are not all bad and Employers are not all bad. In negotiations for our labor contract we worked with management to come to a conclusion that would benefit both parties.
Their are no good companies left in America and all we operate on is corporate socialism and it does not matter which party is in power.
I don't care about GOP neocons or porker democrats, all I care about is my constitution and whats good for the public that constitution serves.
Thanks for showing some good sense. NOW, if you would only join in on the bandwagon for Health Care Guarantees for ALL Americans we could be friends.♦
Anyway, a good account with a highlight for the deprived and down-trodden. A message that should boomrang on the capitalists who have no heart, much less a soul. Bravo!
The phylosophy of the US is a government run by representives of the people and leaders are supposed to be chosen from among us. The problem is we have allowed professional politicians to take over the government. That was never intended.
Who, in this thread, or his right mind, recommends or commends or even suggests the possibility of communism. Well, except for insurance commissars. They take from each policy holder, according to the ability to PAY . . . no pay, no contract . . . . and provide compensation to each policy holder according to their need for compensation . . . unless the contract will permit NOT paying the compensation for some obscure reason. Then whatever is left over from the insurance TAX . . . or premium if you want the euphemism, the Commissar gets to take to the Bahamas for vacation a couple of times a year.
Depression is spelled "D-E-P-R-E-S-S-I-O-N"
Because the fed. govt. realized it could not control our lives, that we could prosper and they could not steal the fruits of our labor. Very simple and basic answer, most can understand here.
Regulation destroys free capitalism.
Whenever we have approached the nearest possible versions of "pure capitalism" we have seen tremendous inequity arise, resulting in widespread poverty, the growth of slums, the spread of disease and all that amongst enormous wealth.
That said, from the coal mines and safety, the child labor, the outsourcing, the regulation that favors the larger interest of some corporations, the list goes on and on...of the excesses of "pure capitalism", which only means a society based only on CAPITAL, that is to say money.
So Linda, no we have never had free capitalism and we never will. We live in a complex society that by and large doesn't even have the ability to clothe itself. Where are all the old textile mills? If our imports are so necessary, don't you believe we should at least have better relations with those countries that do the work that we have deemed not to even be profitable? Where is the profit in that?
The answer always seems to be the same when it's pointed out that "pure" capitalism rarely benefits anyone other than the business owners (aka the wealthy). There is a widespread and very effective disinformation campaign going on in regard to capitalism; the corporatocracy want us to believe that we all benefit when they ship jobs overseas, cut thousands of jobs for no other reason than to enhance their bottom line, pollute the environment, stash funds offshore to avoid paying taxes, etc etc etc. It is a wonder that they have been so successful in convincing so many people when the facts have never supported those claims.
The Causes of Our Economic Crisis
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977548230
It's not about control, it's about doing our own research and the more education we receive, the more likely we are to understand.
We never get a daily dose of choice from statist media or fascist govt. or corporatists.
We get big pharma ads (remember to listen to the side effects), arrogant moderators of the "nightly" programming, and Obama.
I am at the top of the "know nothing" list but seek answers daily.
I rarely watch TV thus time for postings here.
Some call me names, some want me to go away, however, I get new friends requests every day. Some people anxious to check out info posted.
Sorry. I'd agree with him if he were right... but he's not - I am.
BTW - You kieep saying that if we knew what "true capitalism" really was, we'd endorse it. I do, as I demonstrated above, but I'd like to read YOUR explanation.
If you read Steve's post, and still feel that way, nothing I can say change it.
I live by 13 Key Principles to Prosperity and it's working great for me - bypass the govt. at every opportunity. The more we give, the more we get back. Blaming anyone other than ourselves for our circumstances will only dig your hole deeper.
We make mistakes, we think about what we learned from the lesson, and we go on, avoiding like mistakes.
The lessons big govt. has taught us should always be remembered.
What have they got right? Who did it benefit? Did they steal from you and I to give to others? Did those "others" ever learn from their mistakes and improve their circumstances, or just hold out the other hand?
I never get it when ordinary people, working people, support capitalism. It is like owning a slave who beats himself when he displeases you.
You keep saying that if we knew what "true capitalism" really was, we'd endorse it. I do, as I demonstrated above, but I'd like to read YOUR explanation.
In such a society they deal with one another in terms of and by means of discussion, persuasion, and contractual agreement, by voluntary choice to mutual benefit with reason as the common standard and arbiter.
In this country we had the problem of truly rich capitolists becoming so powerful as to control the market. That's why the Taft Hartley act was passed. We restricted the top end of Capitolism without bothering the lower capitolistic enterprises. That took the country away from "pure capitolism" to a more even playing field.
The reason we have so many mega corporations that are "too big to fall" is probably because we, as a nation, have not enforced Taft Hartley and have not updated it.
Likely the best thing that could have happened would have been to let those banks, car manufacturers, savings and loans etc go broke and out of business. It would at least make those who remained a lot more consious of the risks they were taking and endeaver to make a product the public would buy.
To make the cheese just a leetle more binding, the banks, by that time nearly all in collapse, would own more houses than families did.
We had no choice, none at all, so we saved 'em... then the asshats who ran the banks went and accepted BONUSES! That day, I almost went back to your position, Col. I swear, I dam' near did. Their contracts had to be honored, but contracts with auto suppliers, auto dealers, auto workers, bondholders... none of those had to be honored? I keep getting these visions of old men and bullwhips - I swear I do...
Another factor is the so-called free trade. That should not exist because it always turns into a one-way affair. They get to export to us but we don't get to export to them without paying through the nose.
We are the largest market in the world so we should be charging them to export to us and hold ther prducts to our standards.
Remember when Hitlery and Obama said they would "look at NAFTA"? Then, Obama said he "misspoke". No kidding!
NAFTA is not the only free trade agreement and they should all be kicked out. If they want to trade with us let them pay for the privledge.
I support Chuck. He presents these topics much better than I could. Moreover, he defends his positions expertly.
Loved the article. Sick of the economic articles on Gather that expound the glories of person/corporate selfishness/greed. No back to my 12 hour day 6 and 1/2 days per week life of work present under this economy - oh yeah, I could choose to be homeless instead.
I don't know if he really did, but his family claim it.
I do know he rode in his own private railway car, and was one heck of a big wig in the railway.
I rode in that car twice. It had everything.
He was also what they call a dollar a year man for advising the government.
They sucked the country dry.
I am not sure what pure capitalism is even after reading this whole post and comments to here. But i think that the way it is now suks.
Great Gramps was one of the Robber Barons. He was in some of the books about them.
I used to believe in market solutions to market problems. Then in came the Misery Index. Unfortunately many still blame class for the problem. I am fortunate never to have been homeless, I am not rich.
I do blame both regulations that favor one business over another and corporations in particular. I also blame the deregulation that allowed both greed and fraud to inflate the market's short-term profits, drive everyone to demand more, than when the market depressed, it eliminated literally years of the AVERAGE person's worth, in their homes, pensions, savings, assets, and living. Are you better off than you were eight years ago? Sixteen years ago? Twenty-eight years ago? Those are different questions to different people.
The problem with even evolution through the ballot box is that not everyone wants the system to evolve in the same direction. Most voters are apathetic and uninformed and the media (that important pillar of a democratic society that is supposed to provide us with an informed electrorate) is addicted to sound-bites and infotainment, to spin and half-truths.
The rich should not be able to hoard so much.
They should be forced to give at least 10,000 to a charity of their choice once a year.
That way people can have more hope in the world.
The "rich" earned their money and should be able to "give" it as THEY choose. If you were rich, would you feel the same way or would you be bright enough (if you were rich, you obviously would be) to expect others work hard AND SMART for their own success?
Now, understand, I am not talking about the corrupt corporatists, money and power hungry elitists.
A bit of research will show he is not alone. Most truly Rich donate a lot more than a measly 10K to charities.
Linda, I wonder how exactly you determine the difference, as you seem to see an honourable and honoured class of rich with a few bad apples. On what basis do you draw this conclusion?
However, those who worked hard and earned their money knew they could do it again. It would be another chance to learn again to earn again.
"What the mind can conceive, and believe, it can achieve", Napoleon Hill from "Think and Grow Rich".
So, when people refer to the "rich" it has many connotations. If you worked for it, put in the hours, utilized and expanded education to do so, use your brain and your skills, and are rich - what the heck is wrong with that. Those are the people who give back, over and over. I'll call those honest "corporations".
If you are talking about the "rich" who took it at the point of a gun, stole it through "ponzi" and the like - schemes, paid lobbyists to corrupt the laws in your favor, and many other evil deeds, that is a different lot - the ones I commonly refer to as the "elite" - have it, flaunt it, steal it equally from all, etc. those are "corporatists" and use the govt., through mandatory regulation, keep the competition down and/or eliminated. Monsanto is a corporatist - so is GE.
Go to Free Capitalist Project for the Principles to which I believe and adhere:
http://freecapitalist.com/
You will find the 13 Key Principles to Prosperity and some ideas as to what "free capitalism" is all about. I know what I know and can explain, and I know what I cannot explain very well.
We heard about those who lost millions and billions, however, did we hear about the ones on the TOP of the pyramid? Of course not and Bernie is keeping silent. He wasn't the ONLY one to benefit. He still values his life and that of his family. The DC Madame had her "black book" in a computer and was making a deal when she unexpectedly "committed suicide". Some REAL hot names in that computer.
Just follow the trail of blood of those who knew too much, were coming forward with "proof' and evidence, etc. Suicides like being shot in the back, with a shotgun - twice, plane crashes (flight 800), auto accidents - some long string of "accidents" - no longer have the list, but it was eye-opening.
Money talks and other's walk or die.
Trust me, there are wealthy dullards and intelligent poor people (measured in terms of dollars). But what can you expect from someone whose main rebuttal to a post on capitalism's downside is, "You just don't understand"!
Successful businesses provide jobs for those who want to work hard, live responsibly and do their share for society.
Chuck, I'm concerned that we, too, will be taxed into poverty and may be cast aside when we're too old, in need of health care and social security.
The resources on which we've relied have gone bankrupt - GM, especially.
Former CEO Rick Waggoner thinks he got a bum deal with only a $10 million severance package. I will happily trade bank accounts with him.
My husband worked for GM for 34 years and layoffs and temporary shut downs were an annual challenge, some lasting months. We've lost $150,000 in GM stock, had our benefits reduced and the company is bankrupt. Nobody's benefitting by any of this, believe me. CEO did get $10 million, so I guess his family won't starve.
Never assume. It makes an ass of u and me. Try to see as many sides of a situation as is possible.
After the Civil War government actively supported business in the fight against trade unions. Trade unions were an attempt by workers to avail themselves of the free market by banding together to negotiate on wages on working conditions. Tariff and trade policy continued to subsidize American business.
While we've had an economy where government actively supported business interests we've never had an economy where government took a laissez-faire position. It stands to reason. We've always had the best government money can buy. I think it was Calvin Coolidge who said "The business of America is business."
I favor a progressive income tax, but the standard deduction is much too low. Even Nixon proposed a negative income tax, rather than a system that gives with one hand and takes with the other.
My contribution of that fact was to remind those who might forget that people of European history are privileged, simply because of their ancestry, whether or not they are dressed to the role that they are able to play in society due to the educational and financial resources they may have. They were out of luck even after their emancipation and remained disenfranchised to a greater or lesser extent after civil rights legislation.
It is well know that the only way to defeat the US is from withing. That is exactly what is happening. A little history tell us it has been happening for years and is soon to come to a complete victory.
The One World Government, or New World Order can not happen as long as the US is free so the US must first be destroyed and a new social order established.
I think it is as the song goes "Every generation thinks it's the end of the world. If the textile industry in the US was still here maybe I'd buy my shirts with the Union Label. Is that even possible anymore?
IBM production has moved to China. That is top-of-the-line Thinkpads, isn't it? Yet there is little opposition to China producing their PC's with the technology for censorship of Western news or any website that they deem suspect. I for one think we need trade, but that trade is negotiated, and that has been the case always.
Featured in the Triple Name Club.
Yes indeed we have some serious problems in our country. However, the alternative solutions could actually be more dangerous to our Constitution and our FREEDOM.
If some of you folks want the government to control everything as well as yourselves, then I would suggest that you move to Socialist/ Communist countries such as China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea or Vietnam and then come back and tell us what you think..that is if you have the option to come back.
But hey, all of those countries have free health care...that is if you consider sacrificing your freedom for health care to be free.
Timothy, if you read half of what was written above you would know how alarmist and idiotic your fear mongering sounds. No one has advocated communism as a solution.
What most are saying above (those who are not advocating "pure capitalism") is a mixed economy with government regulations that prevent rapacious behaviour and with areas where public services are provided outside the free market.
Amongst those countries with "free" health care is Canada. Of course, the health care is not free but paid for through our taxes. As a result our tax rates are a little higher but our health care costs are way, way lower. Many American businesses, in fact, find their Canadian operations more efficient because they are not carrying huge health insurance premiums as benefits for their employees. And Canada has every bit as democratic and free tradition as the USA does.
So do you also consider an opinion that fiffers from yous a hijack attempt?