If the first casualty of war is truth, then what is the cost of a crusade against terror? Perhaps it's the knowledge that in order to eradicate evil we must begin to emulate the evildoer. And if you label your enemy "evil" long enough, you justify even the most immoral act as noble.
—Jeff Stetson, Blood on the Leaves
Note: Sobering and true....Kind of scares you a bit doesn't you? Or maybe it comforts you. Who knows?
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.
—Albert Einstein
Note: But when we DO do something, it better not be equally evil...
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
—Blaise Pascal
Note: Where there are the devout believers in God, in their wake are thousands of bodies. And blood. Lots of blood.
Evil is a point of view.
—Anne Rice, Interview With The Vampire
Note: This explains why followers of certain religious sects believe that they are right, and everyone else MUST be wrong, and are therefore evil, and in some cases, must be exterminated or otherwise eliminated.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
—Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
Note: See first quote.
I was called a terrorist yesterday, but when I came out of jail, many people embraced me, including my enemies, and that is what I normally tell other people who say those who are struggling for liberation in their country are terrorists. I tell them that I was also a terrorist yesterday, but, today, I am admired by the very people who said I was one.
—Nelson Mandela
Note: Who's a terrorist and who's not, who's evil and who's acceptable, well it all depends on your own beliefs, doesn't it, and yours are probably different from the next guy.
A "war against terrorism" is an impracticable conception if it means fighting terrorism with terrorism.
—John Mortimer, Where There's a Will..
Note: You got a point, now how are we going to implement it?
Our enemies are fully aware that they can use oil as a weapon against America. And if we don't take this threat as seriously as the bombs they build or the guns they buy, we will be fighting the War on Terror with one hand tied behind our back.
—Barack Obama
Note: And yet we grow ever more dependent on oil...
Fear is the foundation of most governments.
—John Adam
Note: Our government was made the way it was based on the fear that it could act too much like a king. Read through the writings of the Fouding Fathers. They FEARED that our government would act in such a manner as the English government during colonial times.
Lastly, I would like to present the first quote once more, as it is the heart of all presented here:
If the first casualty of war is truth, then what is the cost of a crusade against terror? Perhaps it's the knowledge that in order to eradicate evil we must begin to emulate the evildoer. And if you label your enemy "evil" long enough, you justify even the most immoral act as noble.
—Jeff Stetson, Blood on the Leaves
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—Albert Einstein///Note: But when we DO do something, it better not be equally evil..." If a thought to plot revenge is equally thought out and acted upon with a positive and negative outcome granted, is it still 'evil'? No, I do not believe so . . .
I am more of the Jeffersonian genre--We The People are to govern--and institutions are to be suspect.
I agree with Kim re: Adams/Jefferson.
Also, an eye for an eye leaves all blind.
However, in the case of "turn the other cheek", that was actually meant as an in-your -face insult back in the day, as opposed to 'just ignore it'.
And a person can fight evil without becoming evil. Many have done so, many more will do so.
When harm is done as a byproduct for any other reason (greed, bigotry, hate, fear, etc.) it takes something away from all (each) of us. I think that's why I so love the comment above, The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.
—Albert Einstein
When you see it call it out. Evil has a bashful face, and loves to operate under a cover of darkness. Shine a light on it, and it will wither and die. The people will make it so.
Great topic!
Blessings,
Wilka
Very good article. Quite timely.
I agree with Albert Einstein, be silent is sharing or at least accepting evil.
I disagree with Blaise Pascal, Religion don't justify murder.
I agree with Anne Rice, Evil is a point of view when it's vague.
I agree with Nelson Mandela to a certain extent, no one can see Hitler as a saint.
I agree with John Mortimer, this is what the U.S. do in the Middle East exactly… increasing terrorism.
Barack Obama is the evil by these words.
I agree with John Adam… fear of the U.S. found the Middle East governments.
Thanks so much, Ylanne...
Don't get me wrong: I'm a very religious person and strong in my faith. But what is really sad is that people use religion as an excuse to mass murder others. Just like perfectly good ideals, such as socialism and communism, are used to justify totalitarian dictatorships that kill every dissenter or perceived dissenter. It is a tragedy, not something to scoff at. Never ignore the facts. Never, never, never.
Don't bother with the REVISIONIST "History" regarding the "Crusades"...they were Christians who rose up to defend themselves after some 400,000 were murdered by Muslims.
All other cases of "mass-murder," as you have put it, are by the hands of those who believe as you do...that Socialism and Communism are "perfectly good ideals."
Do you REALLY believe that?
Look throughout history: the white Christian Europeans, upon conquering land in South America, Asia, and Africa, every time, forced the inhabitants to adopt European customs, language, and dress, and forcefully converted them to Christianity. All because they were "inferior" based on their society, the color of their skin, and their religious beliefs. Is that Christian to you? Do you think that is what Jesus would have us do? Hmm?
All cases of mass murder are definitely by those who believe exactly the opposite of what I believe, Mark-John. I am appalled that you would compare me to people such as Hitler or Stalin (those who believe socialism and communism are perfectly good ideals). I believe all are equal before the eyes of God, and that it is not my place to judge any other. I don't advocate violence, murder, or mass-murder against any group whatsoever, no matter what it is they may have done to me, or have been perceived to have done.
Black slaves brought to America from Africa were converted to Christianity because the slaveowners used it to justify slavery. White supremacists use Christinanity to justify their beliefs, and therefore also their violent actions against blacks. Never say that Christians do not kill others. Many who call themselves Christians do. But I will agree that true followers of Christianity do not kill others on a mass scale because they disagree with them.
I have found you to be adversarial, confrontational, provocative, and outright presposterous in your assumptions, comparisons, and blatant accusations. You twist my words, refuse to even consider my beliefs, despite the fact that I consider yours, and you immediately rise up as defensive and adamant. I am sorry if this comes off as angry, but that is only because I am angry. Let me tell you though, honestly, I am trying to put aside my anger, because I don't think you deserve it. It is only my failing humanity that has allowed me to grow angry at your comments, which only represent your beliefs, directed to my writings, which only reflect my beliefs.
And let's face it: I could be wrong, you could be wrong, or we both could be wrong. Neither of us is God, and it would be blasphemous to suggest any such thing. But only God fully knows and understands all Truth, and what you or I believe could be completely and totally wrong. The problem is that most people refuse to accept that, and, sadly, at least in my experience, that would apply to you too.
There are many right-wingers who are trying to say that the Crusades were a good idea. They are using modern global politics to inerpret the Crusades. Using a modern political slant as a basis for understanding history is one of the major ways to get history wrong.
The Crusades weren't an example of Christianity's finest hour.
St. Bernard said: "The Christian who slays the unbeliever in a the HOly War is sure of his reward; more sure if he himself is slain. The Christian glories in the death of the pagan because Christ is thereby glorified."-St. Bernard writing to the Templars
There were many Jews slaughtered by Christians in the First Crusade. Godfrey of Bouillon (leader of the Crusade)said the he would avenge the blood of Jesus upon the Jews.
There were Christians slaughtered by Christians as part of the Crusades. Crusaders attacked the town of Languedoc and slew 20,000 men, women and children.
There is an account that says that when Arnaud (the Papal legate) was asked if Catholics be spared, he answered: "Kill them all, for God knows His own."
I'm not asserting that the Muslims were innocent. The notion that Christians were fighting the good fight in the Crusades is silly. Among other things Crusaders attacked Byzantium in one of the later Crusades.
It wasn't a case of Christians fighting the "good fight" against the evil Muslims despite what right-wing revisionists have to say about the matter.
And then on the same page, "Mark Brittingham" says
Jon, I think what Paul is after is that, whatever the (many) faults of the Crusades, the one thing that you cannot do is to say that Christendom inexplicably attacked a peaceful Islamic world. In other words, it is a fundamental error to say that "because Crusaders sometimes attacked Christians and Jews without provocation, therefore they attacked Muslims without provocation." In fact, it is clear from the historical record that the Islamic world was an aggressive, imperial power and that, in large measure and whatever other sins they committed, the Crusades were largely a response to the attacks being mounted on Christendom by the Islamic Imperialists.
Why is this important today? Only because the newest incarnation of Imperial Islam has pointed to the Crusades as a justification for their violence while downplaying their own role in provoking this aggression. You seem to agree with them insofar as you can use this logic to bash your favorite boogie-man: the right wing. In point of fact, your entire argument is a straw man from the beginning. The only argument that I have seen being made is that the Crusades were not, as the Islamic extremists are painting them, an unprovoked aggression by Christian Europe. The "right-wingers" are right on the facts as long as they limit their argument to this point. I think that you, on the other hand, are right only to the extent that you are attacking a point that no one is defending anyway: a pretty useless exercise unless you're just in a bad mood and looking for someone to hate today.
Superbly stated! I don't see anyone, right-wing or otherwise, trying to advance a blanket defense of all aspects of the Crusades. All anyone is saying is that the Crusades should be understood within a broader context of conflict. And why not? There IS a broader context of conflict, and it includes acts of aggression by Muslim leaders both pre and post-dating the Crusader era, as well as subsequent imperial intrusions into Muslim lands. Why not put it all on the table?
Don't bother with the REVISIONIST "History" regarding the "Crusades"...they were Christians who rose up to defend themselves after some 400,000 were murdered by Muslims.
I'm not saying that the Muslims didn't commit atrocities. But what you can't accept is that the Christians did too.
The only thing that Christians "committed" was self-defence...but then, you wouldn't believe in that, would you...
All are NOT equal in the sight of God, and that is something You must learn to Discern on Your own.
And Second...You CAN know the Truth; You can Know the Truth, Ylanne... if You Ask, Seek, and Knock...
You are biased. The Christians are equally capable and guilty of evil as any other religion you can name.
Yes, I understand that ALL are capable of Evil; EVERY individual has the Freedom to act independently. I differentiate where Ideology (Sheer Number's), Platform, and Doctrine are concerned. Are You capable of this differentiation? Do You understand my assertion NOW, Joe?
For example...the DEEPLY misguided often attribute Timothy McVeigh with the representation of the Christian Faith, and further, as a "Christian Terrorist." While he was certainly a Terrorist, he was NOT a Christian. He was a sick, demented Domestic Terrorist.
Christian Values do NOT condone, nor do they encourage, nor do they subscribe to or accept, the behaviour of Terrorism. Nor do they "in number's." They do so NEITHER in Ideology, Platform, or Doctrine. Islam, on the other hand, DOES. Savvy?
I want You to know that I Value and Appreciate You, Joe; You are a fine member of the Gather Group of People, and a great contributor. I also hope that You will understand that there are times when You've misunderstood my word's, and I Thank You for giving me the opportunity to offer clarification.
It is only those misguided individuals who are attributed to be representative of the Islamic faith labelled "Islamic/Muslim Terrorist" in exactly the same way as Timothy McVeigh. As he is NOT a Christian, neither are these terrorists Muslims. They are as sick and demented as he, and exactly as representative of Islam as he was of Christianity--which is not at all.
Those "violent" verses in the Quran are as mistinterpreted as the "violent" portions of the Bible.
The only purpose served by ignoring these facts, is that of serving ignorance.
What you've said has absolutley nothing to do with anything, and I'd like you to explain to me why you've said it.
Your last post One in Four believe in this version of Islam. Add to that the Wahabi'st's...Ylanne, do you know how many Muslims there are? Would you care to do the math?.
I don't know what you are talking about. What math?! What answer?!
I really just do not get you. As Julie, another Gather member says, you are one of those people who people are so hell-bent (pardon the expression in this context) on believing that only their beliefs are true and right, yet they cannot understand that the "other side" is just as convinced of their own right-ness, for just as good a reason.
We are all taught and we learn, and some of us are taught different things... but if we are all "right" then no one is wrong...
And I prefer to think that we have strong beliefs because we are meant to learn tolerance. But many of us learn intolerance instead.
As far as I am aware, that is a perfect description of you. You are not tolerant of anything at all except your own beliefs. In your eyes, everyone who disagrees with you MUST be wrong because you ARE right because in your mind, when you read His word, He tells you so. You cannot understand anyone else's beliefs, not least because you never even take the time to learn about them.
You are the most intolerant person I have ever met.
:)