Critiquing vs. Judging

I hope someone on the judging team can spot grammatical and spelling errors...

Sarah interesting. I had a hard time with the FC1. I found myself being overly critical of scifi because I dont read it. Now with the FC Romance I enjoy a good romance novel so I am less judgemental and can do more critiquing.

Oh - I'm so guilty of that -if its sci-fi or western I'm not very tempted to read it b/c it's just "not my thing" it is sad how we make "snap" judgements on things. Thanks for giving me a wake-up call.

I would like to think I am doing both when I comment on the entries. It may be excellent writing although I don't care for the subject. I have my favorites like everyone else does. I may also love the subject and notice that the actual writing still needs some help.

We are judging if we tell an entrant their story doesn't fit in the romance genre right? And we are critiquing when we tell them a certain paragraph is in the wrong point of view?

Fate and Destiny

I'll read it even if its not my thing. Might not give it a 10 but happy to explain for that reason. You never know in reading something in a different genre, it just might surprise you that you like it.

Tracy, I think telling someone wrong pov could still be judging... it's more when you get into likes and dislikes based on reasons other than craft, etc. I guess... ;)

But the concept of judging really only comes into play in something like an RWA contest, where you try to rate them against a score sheet.
Real readers of romance novels will bring their prejudices, like Barb said, of not liking sci-fi, etc to reading your book... :)

I like online voting contests (like Romance Junkies)... but I seem to get good comments and think "people may 'like' it for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean it's publishable"...

I went to RWA groups for several years, even national contests, and my local chapter never understood this difference. I found the organization to be very cliquish as well. I hope your group is not the same and I wish you lots of luck.

Teaching was an eye-opener for me in this regard, Sarah; I would read student writing and I had to learn to see it from their point of reference and not my over-educated perspective. I could easily have rewritten all of their work to fit my style but I learned to crawl inside of their minds just enough to see it from their side of the world. I always read them the mistakes I spotted and asked if they knew what was wrong with it and almost always when they heard me read it, they knew that it either grammatical and needed a fix for clarity or agreement or they would ask me how to make it better; I never just made the switch for them - that is critiquing. Judging is to look at the surface and find the best overall product from the offerings - like pies at a county fair. There is not "do-over" there - what you see or taste is all there is. And judging is indeed hard among differing entries. I love science fiction and would apply a long history of personal reading and research to any entry that professed itself to be scifi while a romance novel is more entertainment fare than thinking fare to me and I would probably read with less care - the "personal bias" of which you spoke.

Sarah,
One thing this contest has taught me is to approach things with a more open mind. If I did not, I would have missed out on some really terrific stories simply because they are not my usual cup of tea. But, as with tea, if you don't try a new flavor once in awhile, how will you know if you like it or not?

That said, I think the line between critiquing and judging is as thin as the line between love and hate. I also think that if we really want to be helpful to others, we must put our biases aside and comment on the writing itself, not the type of story it is. And it should be helpful. Nobody wants to be told that their writing stinks, they want to hear what could make it better. Any piece of advice I give is given in that spirit.

I just want to thank all of the wonderful contestants in this contest who have opened my eyes to worlds I never would have visited had it not been for this. It's been one heck of a ride so far!

Nora's Soul

Critiquing is negative judging and judging is negative critiquing(since critiquing itself is negative)
let Critiquing = c and judging = j
.
. . c = - j and j = - c

differentiating with respect to different people different results will be arrived

on a scale of 10 for c ad j
lets say an indifferent person's score
c(8).j(9)= 0 since individual is indifferent.

a touchy person's score
c(4).j(5) = 20 c since individual is touchy

and similarly every person's reaction score could be derived depending on
where on the scale of above 2 limits the person stands.

I hadn't really thought about it in those terms. I see a big difference between "judging and offering a critique" of someone's work. To me it is much like reviewing two research proposals for a business case. One may involve exciting or cutting edge avenues of investigation but will generate little to no ROI to the company's stakeholders. The other, while not "sexy", is in alignment with the company business objectives and has the potential for major ROI. Personal bias has to be set aside in favor of the established business criteria.

My critiques are definitely from a personal bias. People can take them or leave them because I am only offering my opinion. (The value of which is in the POV of the recipient.) My perspective has been that I am reading the entry as though I were standing in the booksellers aisle and trying to decide whether or not to buy the book.

That said - my reading tastes are all over the place and what I buy is based on my mood (or anticipated moods) at any given moment. (On occassion the cashiers at Barnes & Noble give me some pretty odd looks over what is in my basket.)

I have to say that I am not sure what makes a work publishable. I have seen books on the bookeller's shelves that would not have made it through my undergrad or graduate courses with more than a D, yet they have spent time on the best-sellers list. I have read books recommended by friends that I had to force myself to read. (and I am reasonably sure that I have foisted books on others where they had to do the same.)

To officially "judge" someone else's writing while also being a contestant strikes me as a bit of conflict of interest (if not unethical). I hope no one has perceived my comments as judging them because it was never my intent.

I wasn't hoping to pass judgement on anyone for the way they've been reading/rating entries... just something to discuss... ;)

I think it's a great topic for discussion, Sarah...I belong to a crit group and there is definitely a fine line one must walk. When I read other people's work and I'm not familiar with something (style, language, etc...), I look it up. I notice that a lot of people are not willing to do the same for me, which gets frustrating. Like when they constantly change "ton" to "town"! LOL! I think it's important if you're going to crit OR judge, that you understand - or at least try to understand - the sub-genre so that your crits can be constructive. As far as this competition, I think it's hard to crit/judge for many reasons...my method has been if I like it, I say that I liked it...if I don't, I move on and don't say anything. "Mama always says if ya don't got sumpin' nice ta say, don't say nuffin at all." :)


Please read and rate my entry:
A Scandalous Overture

Great topic, Sarah! I agree that we all have a personal bias when we read something. Sometimes, I don't think we're even aware of our bias. It's really hard to judge a story on a topic we don't connect with. I've been reading a lot of FCR entries. There are quite a few that I read, or at least looked at, but didn't comment on because I'm just not a fan of that type of story. Of course, when you're judging an RWA contest, you have to try to overcome that bias and do your best.

My Fantasy Spy

I agree with you Sarah, 100%. I could not have said it better. Thank you for an excellent posting. Will rate you another 10.

IMHO, critiquing is what you do to improve the grammar, or the syntax, or to make a sentence flow, etc.; judging is what might give it value, good or bad. I'm not a professional editor, nor a teacher, so what do I know? It's just my .02 worth.

I used to be in a yahoo group with a small group of romance writers and we all did line by line critiques of each other's work. It was very enlightening. I have received some genuinely great feedback on my Ch. 1. I don't consider any of it good or bad, feedback is just that...feedback. You take what you will and make what you want of it. What I can't stand are those who post a comment that just says "boring" and that's it! What kind of comment is that?! That is not feedback, it is not critique, it is not helpful in any way.

Thanks Sarah

Excellent topic to discuss. It's easy to slip to the side of judging when trying to critique. I'm in a weekly writing group and we sometimes have to deal with this.

Great topic!