The Issue That Could Decide the Democratic Nomination - And the General Election

I'm so sick of her and her crap.

She is out classed every step of the way.

That is something everyone should read. It will show just what H Clinton is. A liar.

Oh my.

I don't have to be convinced not to vote for her!

Thank you, Ron. That was an interesting column and I will be interested in more of what you think on the issue.

Linking people to a left wing blog doesn't make you look like a free thinker. I was starting to have faith in a Ron newness as most of the recent links you posted were of reputable sources. I don't question your intelligence just your ideology.

I did read the "kook link" and what the writer wrote was common sense that the mainstream media won't put front and center because they will be faced with a red faced finger wagging slick willy who still has some powerful connections.

Clinton, Obama and McCain all have their skeletons in the closet, and none of them are seriously for the middleclass, which is born out in their approach to dealing with illegal immigration. Both Obama and Clinton last night stated in no uncertain terms that they would legalize the 12-20 million illegal aliens already in America, yet spelled out no plan to help out legal American citizens who have seen their wages drop by an average of 7 percent as a result of illegal aliens in the work force. We all know where McCain's heart is, he and Ted Kennedy were the authors of the original Amnesty Bill.

The middleclass in America is in serious trouble, and none of the presidential contenders are putting forth an agenda that is going to seriously help us. For those with predatory mortgages facing foreclosure...90 days is not going to save your home. Minimum wages raised to $9.50 and hour...as if that is a living wage? Do the math, and working a forty hour week, you are still not grossing $400 a week, and by the time government takes its share, you are still living in poverty.

Until we can get rid of a two party system, until multiple political parties force true compromise in Washington, DC we are all in for a world of hurt.

Sherwood I totally agree with your theory and the two party system

Correct me if I'm wrong Jeff, but first you blast me for linking to the guy, then tell me he's using common sense. Well, hallelujah, I've been trying to tell you there was much common sense on those sites all along. The first time you finally read one I publish, you agree with them. Huh......you don't suppose........

Ron I blasted you for linking to the Huffington post which spends most of it's time trying to tell people that bush and republicans are secretly trying to ruin the middle class.. Just because I was in agreement with one of the article's author's points doesn't mean i have "seen the light" or whatever else you think may have happened.

Oh, yeah, like I think you ever could, lol. They spend their time REPORTING on the FACT THAT Bush has waged class warfare on the middle class, Jeff. It's a fact. Whether you want to believe it or not, very few in the middle class would argue the point. Productivity has soared, real wages have stagnated, and the middle class is shrinking at the greatest rate ever. Witchcraft and voodo it ain't.

Serfdom is the Republican economic plan for the middle class, nd it shows in the demographics of todays economy.

I have heard Obama say on numerous occasions that he would be for raising the minimum wage every year.

Well I must be in the right line of work because I have seen any of the suffering or the savagery of Bush's war on the middle class. I don't know anybody who is suffering either except the same people that never seem to stop suffering. The "woe is me" bunch.

And we all know, you have our fellow man at heart Jeff. You may be in the right line of work, or you may just be blindered, but the figures on the shrinking of the middle class aren't fictitious, and they aren't going up the ladder, they're going down. I know you are the kind of guy that doesn't care much about the suffering of others, whatever your newfound gig, you were a Bush supporter, rabid, at one time, and that tells me all i need to know about your milk of human kindness quotient.

Conservatism is but a thin veil for no social conscience and a rationalization for greed, and it has always been thus. Blame the afflicted, swear there is an even playing field, when there is no such thing, and.....blame the afflicted again. If that doesn't work, start a war to get everyone's attention off the fact that you're raping their bunghole.

What? They would DARE suggest a CLINTON would LIE?!?!? They expect us to believe a Clinton would lie to stay in or obtain power? Surely not!

(okay, now that I'm done mocking the obvious)

Go figure...

Okay - now I just read Jeff's comment and I'm a little cranky, instead of amused. Jeff, I have PERSONALLY experienced the shrinking of the middle class since 9/11. My ex and I were both uneducated people who worked in various fields (he delivered candy, I worked for the phone company) and worked our way up to be making comfortable livings. When circumstances removed those jobs (ever hear of downsizing) we discovered we couldn't get jobs that made more than HALF of what we used to! Talk about "readjusting your standard of living." Going from more than $80K a year take-home to less than forty is a BIG adjustment, and it happens to a lot of people each year. Jobs in call centers and manufacturing are shipped abroad, and people abroad ship in their educated people to compete just as hard for the college educated jobs...

Yes, the middle class is shrinking. A few of us who used to be content and safe in our happy working lives have ended up working at gas stations and department stores, because good job opportunities for people without degrees are getting scarcer each day...

Ron -

I saw your title and my expectations were high. You let me down....lol.

So lying is the story Sirotta is telling us (and the one you bought into) is the key issue of this election? I have to say "DUH!"

No, dumba** Nafta is.

McCain, if he keeps on supporting free trade agreements, AND the Iraq war, can pretty much kiss any chance at the presidency goodbye, I would think. Those are two issues the American people can find common ground on, regardless of party, at this point. A sow's ear, no matter how much you tell people it's a silk purse, eventually gets labeled a sow's ear, and both of these issues have lost the debate, long ago.

NAFTA?
Oh brother. That was worse than lying. I thought Sirotta was a little off before, but now he's just a buffoon.

Look who's talking.

Have you seen your boy has finally achieved worst ever president status?

How could anyone ever top Jimmy Carter?
LOL

19% approval rating, and Carter didn't hold the title ever, Truman did.

Ron I care about people who are actually suffering. I take offense to the fact that you accuse me of being uncaring of your invented afflicted.

As far as Lisa I am sorry about what happened. I would suggest going back to school. When the light bulb was invented and government was creating infrastructure to provide electricity to homes, the candle makers of the world suffered a great deal. You have to adjust and except the fact that the world changes. There are jobs that anybody can do and jobs that take skill. Learn a skill sweety.

Ron will consider what I just said to Lisa as uncaring. What I did is a hell of a lot more than the politician who claims "vote for me and I will solve your problems!" You will be waiting for a long time....

OOOOOOOH, Girlfriend, hey you -- Gots to holla at Lisa B up there!
Lisa B! You a comrade. Let me tell YOU my "SAD SACK" story. The "New" A.T.&T. arrived in town, and within 5 years, no. Let me change that: within 5 "W" years, nearly ALL of the jobs in San Francisco were GONE -- ZILCH, ZERO, KAPUL, NIL, NONE! The Union was reduced to . . .

Oh my God! and it was a powerful Union.

Want to know what happened to OUR jobs???? One guess.

Guess what State in the UNION our jobs went to?

They did not go to Oklahoma,

or Wisconsin

or Tennessee

or Arkansas

I give ONE itsy bitsy guess. . .

Thaaaaaaaaat's right

They went to the greaaaat STATE of A.T. & T. headquarters,

Which (whispering) also happened to be the great state of our
beloved "W" -- now want to guess which State our jobs went to?

Thaaaaaaaaaat's right:

TEXAS

By the way, San Francisco was the headquarters for my company before this new company's hostile takeover.

So don't tell me about NO shrinking middle class.

There IS a shrinking middle class when you see a company with more than
55,000 employees shrink to a skeleton crew in California.

I must give Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco his "props"
because he let them know that they were NOT taking jobs out of San Francisco on his watch, and they did not.

No Jeff, you are WRONG.

I was fortunate due to early retirement; others were not so fortunate.

I could say more, but I have said enough.

"W"s friends get away with murder.

Lisa B., I must talk to YOU!

Take offense, Jeff, if you want, but I have seen, for over 50 years, you and your type deny anyone ever gets hurt by your greed and avarice, then if you do admit it, you blame them for not adapting. Some people haven't had your advantages, and don't know how to do anything else, but that's not your problem, and it's all just rationalizations to sleep well at night. You don't want to know, so you find ways not to. You aren't anything new under the sun Jeff, and I don't hate you, I feel sorry for you. I know you will consider that the biggest insult of all, I suppose, but it's true.

Nalita Jobs have been leaving California for years. You feel the pinch obviously. Not because of Bush but because your state couldn't keep them there. Corporations keep leaving because of taxes and politicians who demonize corporations. Until democrats realize that government doesn't create jobs, corporations and public consumers do, California will always be in this mess.

Ron related to my post above I have yet to see a liberal admit that their policy of government taxes has hurt jobs and the lives of people. I take an even bigger offense that you think that I had advantages in life. I built my life from nothing. Ron your pity doesn't offend me because your whole ideology is about pitying one group and blaming another. Pity is your game. I would suggest saving it for the people who are addicted to it.

About what I would have expected. Why do I bother with you, Jeff? Government can create jobs, and has, on many occasions. Government and the private sector are intertwined in many areas, unfortunately. Look at the corruption in Iraq. Many times they are created merely by the focus of government, and the people changing paradigms. Look at the job boom the space race created. If we switch emphasis from oil to green, for instance, many new jobs can be created in the next few years. The true debate between conservatives and liberals, though, is not about who creates jobs, but who pays taxes, and who should receive the benefits of them. Conservatives want to give the rich breaks, and the benefits,in corporate welfare, etc. Tell me the oil companies need subsidized right now. Democrats would like to see the common man gets a little benefit. Blasphemy.

Oh and yes Nalita, the corporation I work for left California.

Ron, where does the money that pays for government jobs, the jobs government can actually create, come from? As far as subsidies to oil and farmers, those are all designed to keep the price down for consumers. Yeah raise the taxes and guess who pays? Not the corporations silly. But at least it makes you feel like yelling "POWER TO THE PEOPLE" as you beat your chest in victory. You can then complain about even higher gas prices and demand more taxes on oil companies! One hand washes the other! The ability of democrats to keep their sheep in line is ingenious!

So you have the gall to suggest the subsidy to oil companies is supposed to lower prices? Jeff, you can't tell me you actually believe that. Exxon posted the biggest profits ever of any traded company, for God's sakes. Look, all I know is this, you folks, conservatives, have let the corporations take over our government, and run amok in this country for the last seven plus years. The American people have seen your plans fail, and fail hard. Not for corporations, or the elite, but for the rest of us, the people that actually do some work, while you all mismanage our country, and our industries. You are done. It's time for a new broom, a hard one. I believe you folks have set back your movement for decades. Good luck with that.

Yeah Ron raise taxes on oil and we will all be better off. It's a lot better that facilitating the industry which is what subsidies are. You act like government GIVES oil companies money. It proves you are a blue blood democrat that knows what blue blood democrats are supposed to know. You stay in your place. Good boy.

No, no Jeff. You were not here. You were not in on the inner runnings of this thing. Politicians were bought off. When they could not buy off the Governor, they accused him of being in bed with the competition because he vetoed the bill the politicians they had bought off had passed. Uh-huh.

When they could not handle Willie Brown, for he was TOO MUCH for them (haha!), they called their friends in Washington and begged, "Please, please, please, get Willie Brown OFF OUR BACKS" (another haha!) They learned very soon that you do NOT play with Willie Brown in California.

They learned the politics in California are quite different, but they DID learn, and all with the help of their (Ahem!) Good ole Boy Buddy!

They tried to take our jobs away by cheating us, hiding a legal document/agreement made with our former CEO. The document "mysteriously (Ahem) "disappeared."
Good for us, the document was located, although I feel sorry for the person who located it. I know they lost their job. The document outlined many promised made to our employees that nowhad to be kept. (Oh shucks, we cannot screw the daylights out of these California employees the way we wanted to; who the hell found this document? We thought it was (Ahem) lost!")

Is that also the way your company ran things here in California, Jeff?

Is that the WAY YOUR company got out of California as well????

I do not know how we got here, but let me say this much. You cannot keep corrupting a system and expect it to stand. It shall eventually fall of its own corruption.

That is why the call of the day is for CHANGE.

We have been running around (I say "WE", change that to "THEY") with the same ole crap in that dirty ole diaper for far too long. The diaper stinks, the load is too heavy, and the whole system stinks!

They need a CHANGE -- a DIAPER CHANGE -- the Creeps! The big babies!

. . .and obviously the American people are DEMANDING Change!

Big oil is fleecing our people and ruining our economy, for greed. It's not rocket science, except for the numerous theories about how they aren't fleecing us because...yahda yahda yahda. World's record biggest profit for ANY traded company. No, they aren't fleecing us, they just found that extra money, right? Yeah, they need government subsidies. What they need is a boot in the ass, and a trip to the striped suit motel.

Nalita the company i work for came to Wisconsin because Wisconsin wants them here and they don't treat corp[orations like hell spawn around here. The company I work for demanded change.

Ron the reason why oil companies are making record profits is because of the giant mergers during the 90's as well as sky rocketing demand over the past 5 years. If everybody started drinking 5 sodas a day instead of just one, Pepsi would have record profits as well and it wouldn't mean that they are fleecing the people.

Government got us addicted to foreign oil because of the existing taxes on it. The best thing that ever happened to oil companies is the gas tax which makes GOVERNMENT dependent on its use. The more we use it the more government makes off of it. politicians will spin you around in circles but until you can find one that admits this they are as full of shit as all the others.

Government has stifled progress on alternative sources for energy for years because it would hurt their balance sheets. If you want to say republicans were behind that and secretly pulled it off while the democrats had their heads up their asses I won't argue with you.

I'm gonna stay out of the meat of these arguments, BUT, Hillary only "supports" what is popular at the time. She supported the Iraqi occupation, and has been in the Senate during this entire debacle on the American economy. If she had been against NAFTA, we would have heard about it way before now, as she's always speaking out loudly, whether we want to hear it or not. Too bad, because if she had convictions she would have been a good candidate. I don't hate her, just sorely disappointed in her. Rather glad it looks like she won't be the nominee.

All I can say is that all of this "in-fighting" might cost us (Progressives) dearly in the long run...

I kind of see it as a get it out of the way thing. Memories fade, over the months.

And Rove will have worse than these for people to concentrate on, if they let themselves be manipulated, anyway.

I love this reply;

That is something everyone should read. It will show just what H Clinton is. A liar.
Col. George W.,

"Nalita the company i work for came to Wisconsin because Wisconsin wants them here and they don't treat corp[orations like hell spawn around here. The company I work for demanded change."

No state should give any tax breaks for companies to play localities against the other with. They have done this here, decimating the economies of other areas, and guess what? As soon as somebody makes them a better offer, they abandoned us as well. There should be penalties for this, and we are just stupid to allow it.

"Ron the reason why oil companies are making record profits is because of the giant mergers during the 90's as well as sky rocketing demand over the past 5 years. If everybody started drinking 5 sodas a day instead of just one, Pepsi would have record profits as well and it wouldn't mean that they are fleecing the people."

Oh give me a break, Jeff. Their profits are way out of line with that line of crap. One of the reasons it chaps people's asses so much is this kind of lie.

"Government got us addicted to foreign oil because of the existing taxes on it. The best thing that ever happened to oil companies is the gas tax which makes GOVERNMENT dependent on its use. The more we use it the more government makes off of it. politicians will spin you around in circles but until you can find one that admits this they are as full of shit as all the others."

Government has never had a problem figuring out replacement sources of revenue for sunsetting tax revenues, the truth is, oil companies went to foreign oil to rape the source countries from sweetheart deals with this or that tyrant that sold his country out for personal wealth. South America, the middle east, the eventual result is an overthrown tyrant, and nationalization of the industry. This has never had as much to do with our government's reliance on oil taxes, though they are lucrative. That's more Bullshat, we have a long history of this, for anyone to look at. It is also why we are in the shape we now find ourselves, we ran out of tyrants, and Iraq is merely an attempt to do it again.

"Government has stifled progress on alternative sources for energy for years because it would hurt their balance sheets. If you want to say republicans were behind that and secretly pulled it off while the democrats had their heads up their asses I won't argue with you."

No, the fossil fuel industry has been behind this for years, including paying hundreds of pseudo scientist to claim global warming was a fraud. Not that they haven't found many willing whores ready to stuff their pockets to help. Our recent Republican congress, is a supreme case in point.