Or are people just stupid in the way they look at it. Or more likely, is your pastor not bothering to tell you what it means for modern American political reasons?
The apparently decisive text, Leviticus 18:22, "You must not lie with a man as with a woman: that is an abomination", is a prime example of how people just don't read things in historical context.
The passage refers to Idolatry via Temple Prostitution. People had sex in temples as a form of Pagan worship - even gay sex. That, and the word "abomination" suggests far more a concern for idolatry than anything. And that issue of idolatry was a big struggle for the early Jews. Otherwise Jews were a very tightly knit tribal group and there wasn't any privacy to do what we now take for granted.
another example:
If the story of Sodom says "Don't be gay" then the story of Gibeah says "Don't be straight" - if you want to be consistent in your Biblical interpretation.
Moving to the New Testament,
As far as what St. Paul saw in the streets of Rome, there was still temple sex, and street prostitution. I'm sure I would have found that all yucky, too. St. Paul was anti ALL sex, actually, because he expected Jesus to come back in his own life time. He was wrong about that one, too.
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Comments: 67
and while I'm ranting, (without going on for pages)
The Bible gives far more reasons for having slavery - if you want it.
There was a time people wanted it and they had ample ammunition from the Bible to justify their slavery.
Luckily we aren't so stupid anymore and have decided not to justify slavery, even though the Bible would let us.
First of all, the Bible was written in more than one language. Secondly, when translated into a new language, it isn't always exact.
The Bible is the best thing since sliced bread, but it is not the be all and end all. By the way: How did we populate this planet? We had Adam and Eve, then Seth and Cain. Where did the next generation come from? Ask a minister that question. Some of the reactions are priceless. Anyone heard the word "incest" before?
What anyone does is between them and God. Jesus said to love one another and he didn't reject Mary Magdelane for having being a prostitute. He also said Judge not lest ye be judged. People forget that Jesus is interested in our hearts and wants us to believe in Him. If we are doing wrong the Holy Spirit will let us know. I think he sends rich christians to the rich, poor christians to the poor and arrested christians to those in jail and gay christians to the gay people to spread his message of love and forgiveness. His people go everywhere even into churches that aren't exactly following what he said. None of his people are without sin. They just have accepted Jesus's gift of forgiveness of sin. Yes, Gay people are christians and their Gayness does not change that they love the Lord or invalidate them. I think we need to stop bashing each other over the head with this one.
What ever sin we can be forgiven and we are all guilty of sin. People need to stop judging each other. I am overweight and you could say I am guilty of sin for gluttony and reject me but it doesn't make me a bad christian and doesn't mean Jesus can't use me to reach others. This is where I am right now and I have a hard time with my weight. If you are going to judge me for that well, you will miss out on a good person. If you judge a gay person the same way, you will miss out on a good person.
Moses killed a man, you can't get around that. David sent Bathsheba's husband to the front lines of the battle to get killed to cover up that he had sex with Bathsheba and she got knocked up. Paul held the coats when they stoned Steven. All Bible Greats, All looked up to and admired. All SINNERS who broke the rules! All people that God dealt with and gave them work because of their hearts despite what they did. Paul switched sides and was not trusted at all, the christians thought he was tricking them.
I think you love who you love. If you want change on anything in your life God will help you with it. But it is not mine to judge you or anyone else. It is between you and God.
I wrote an article and will put it here to save time... This explains more.
A Work in Progress
by Heather Campbell | edit | delete
August 17, 2007 02:05 PM EDT (Updated: August 17, 2007 10:56 PM EDT)
rating: 10/10 (4 votes) | comments: 7
We are all a work in progress. We are all on this journey in life together. Our paths may be different but we all all heading in the same direction. We are heading towards the end of our stay on earth and on to the next phase of our existance.
We were all born with a sin nature. The only human on this planet who was sinless was Jesus. Jesus was sinless so that he could be the ultimate sacrifice, the lamb of God who would die for our sins.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
For centuries in the Old Testament the Jewish people sacrificed animals to atone for their sins. From this the world would understand the significance of Jesus dying on the cross.(this is also why Jesus, the lamb of God was born in a manger)
Ezekiel 46:13"And you shall provide a lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering to the LORD daily; morning by morning you shall provide it.
If we could not sin on our own, we would not need Jesus to pay the price. If we could earn our way into Heaven doing good deeds, we would not need Jesus to pay the price.
Thus, with Jesus paying the price we are released from the penalty of our sins, death.
John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Why, then, are so many bashing each other over sins? I heard on a radio talk program yesterday that minister was saying if someone in the congregation is sinning and you know it, to refuse to see them socially and shame them into facing their sin and confessing in order to get your friendship back. That if you spend time with them it is almost like partaking of their sin. Granted if someone is influencing you to sin you need to be careful. As much as you may be trying to help pull them back in the boat, you have to let go if they are pulling you out of the boat. I don't think immediate withdrawal and shame is the answer.
Let's face it, if we did this we would be alone in this world and not even on speaking terms with ourselves. Since I invited Jesus into my life and my heart, and let him guide me I have not done any outrageous sins but I still make mistakes and sin. I resist temptation by remembering one line of scripture:
Ephesians 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
If you believe in Jesus and you allow him into your heart and your life, the Holy Spirit is connected to you.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is with us to teach us, we just need to listen.
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
In this scripture it even says the Holy Spirit will speak through us, for us:
Mark 13:11" When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.
You can resist the Holy Spirit:
Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
The Holy Spirit will work in us to point out to us our sin:
John 16: 7,8 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
We need to:
Matthew 7:1- "Do not judge so that you will not be judged."For in the way you judge, you will be judge by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
It is through our example of living our lives that we are Ambassadors for Christ. Even though we sin, he still will be there for us. He knows our hearts and he will not turn away from us or forsake us. We need to learn to follow his example. Love the sinner, Hate the sin.
Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be [ Or have been] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be [ Or have been] loosed in heaven."
This means that when we pray and give something over to God, or ask him to intercede for us we are loosing the binds and giving permission to God to act. Sometimes as long as we hold on to something we bind it, when we let go we loose and then God can act.
I think when see our friends sin we need to pray to God and let the Holy Spirit get involved. If someone is let's say cheating on his wife, he knows it's a sin. We don't need to tell him, but if we hand it over to God and ask him to intercede the Holy Spirit will work on it. If the friend ignores the Holy Spirit well, we have done all we can.
I have enough to do in my life to listen to the Holy Spirit and stay on the path following Jesus. My responsibility is with my own sin. And remember, we are all works in progress.
i am glad to see that others think like me and think that some people just need to mind their own souls and shit and leave the others alone
look at all the wars people have been having over a religion , you can go way back take the cursades for a start people killing people becuase they did not have the same faith at lest wars over money i can sorta understand it is just greed not more or less stupidity lol
I've always marvelled at the way two people read the same passage and say it means two different things. It's like the group of blind men describing the elephant. LOL
I have had many people in my life who were homosexual. Being involved with the theater scene in New Orleans in my youth sort of made it automatic. I can say without fear of error that within my experience with the homosexual world the percentage of fine, wonderful human beings is no more or less than among the straight world. People are basically people. Anything else is just a label.
Yes, I believe the practice of homosexuality is a sin. I also believe murder, theft, hatred, scamming, lying, infidelity, mistreatment of others, and many other behaviors are sin as well. But until I become perfect (Hah!), I don't have the right to expect perfection from anybody else. My job is love each of God's children as He loves me.
John 13:34 - A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. King James Version
There are many translations of the word of God. If you want the truth, all you have to do is ask God. If you truly seek the truth, you will definitely find it.
It is my belief that the act of homosexuality is a sin. Do we have a right to judge one another? No. We are commanded to love one another. Because I believe what I believe, does that make me a hypocrite for having gay friends? No. It just means I love my friends, for who they are, and not what they practice or believe. Just as I respect their choice to live as they desire and believe what they believe, they must respect me for who I am, and what I believe. We can always agree to disagree, as in any situation.
Would I say to a friend: get away from me, you're gay! No. Just as I hope they would not say to me: get away from me, you're fat! Sounds ridiculous, huh? But it happens.
Many people are stuck in the letter of the law (Bible); when the truth is, it is the spirit of the Word of God that brings illumination and revelation. God is wise in all that He does. For those who sincerely desire the truth, and for those who really want to hear it, God will reveal to you exactly what His Word means, and that the Bible is not stupid at all.
A person should never feel sorry for being gay. Ever. They should never say they're sorry for that.
Why is being gay being sort of equated with being fat these last couple of posts of mine?
As for the homosexuality issue, I can't help but believe that they are children of God just as much as you or I and therefore, any judgment of them or their lifestyle should be left to Him. I believe that and was taught that redemption is possible for anyone, should it be necessary in His wisdom, He always has the final say, so I leave it at that.
No, but, you are.
Mary Beth is also correct that a sin is a sin, there is no degree of sin. But I do not agree that homosexuality is a sin. (I will explainin detail shortly) Nothing in the ten comandments about it. Mankind created degrees or wrong, not God. Per the modern Christian Bible and probably some others, we are all sinners in the eyes of God. Keep in mind the commandments state his/her/it's own admission of being a jealous God. For someone or something perfect and without sin I never could reconcile this fact. That is beside the fact.
Peter as for Paul if you read Corinthians, which is basically a letter from Paul to the citizens of Corinth, he (Paul not God) is advising these new converts in matters of daily life and faith. He states that if you cannot live as God (meaning abstinence) then you should enter into marriage. A very good argument for justifying same sex marriage in my book. So hence the vows of celibacy and so forth practiced by some.
Yes the Old Testament in particular acknowledges the practice of slavery, stoning to death of the elderly et al, amputations as punishment, so on and so on. I dont want to revert to the days of the old testament. Can you see it now? Welcome back to BC please set your watch back 2000 years.
Now as to why I dont think homosexuality is a sin. I firmly believe that our sexuality is not a choice. I believe that it is something that we are born with. When I started to "notice" boys I did not think well gee the girls looks hot too but I will choose the guys? I never made a choice to be attracted to a person. I either was or wasn't. I dont know anyone who would choose to purposely expose theirselves to some of the deep seeded hatred that runs towards homosexuals. On that same topic I have heard over and over again that "God doesn't make mistakes" Well if God doesn't make mistakes, and sexuality is something you are born with then God made some people homosexuals. Now don't get me wrong a person can make a choice to be celibant. A person can make a choice to deny who they really are, which does no one any good. But truly being whoever you naturally are is just that ...natural!
So yes even though I am an ordained minister I do not believe it is a sin. I do believe that same sex marriages should be allowed and honored.
Don - I miss Bill too!
*I have nothing against gay people. A very good friend of mine is gay. I also happen to like the Bible though.*
I think it's a fabulous (and in some cases the only) history of the early Jews. But too many people don't care to read an ancient text like an ancient text. They don't care about historical insight (or they think they have it because they've seen some Hollywood Bible movies). And some people are so literal about words written in English and it isn't even an English culture document - so it needs more care. I was raised right wing Lutheran and I think they did so much to make the Bible seem stupid - by making things literal in it that were first camp fires stories for an ancient and VERY different people than ourselves.
Anyway, I'll admit it. I'm one of those whackos. I believe every word of the Bible. Literally.
Great Hebrew scholars devote their entire lives to studing and interpreting the Old Testament on a daily basis. They are the teachers in the Yeshivas. The New Testament was not recorded until 300 years after the death of Christ. In fact, both were oral histories that had to wait to be recorded by scribes, as few people knew how to write.
As the meaning of the Old is still being debated and the New was recorded as an afterthought hundreds of years later, everyone is entiltled to their interpretation. The scribes who wrote the stories had to use personal experience to relate those stories, as few witnessed the actual events. As writers, we all rely on our past experiences to express things we may not have been privy to at the time they actually happened. Add to this the complexity of Old Hebrew, and the mix becomes even more varied.
Even people who have dedicated their professional lives to the study of history and languages have honest debates over possible meanings of important issues that are truly various.
Or you could just be like my parents and let the feeling the Holy Spirit gives them tell them what's right and wrong (as they go vote for Bush because he has Jesus).
Ug.
Sometimes in religion tradition is more important than anything, even facts.
I'm just a consumer of information.
Jesus spoke a now dead Arabic tongue and that's a bummer that we don't have anything written in his own words to argue about (and we would, even then). It would be nice to know what he really said - especially since so many important religious things (like communion hanging on the word "is") are all nit-picking over words.
Okay let's play this game.
Leviticus 18:22 has nothing to do with...what was that? Temple Prostitution. The chapter opens thus,
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
It is speaking to the entire Israeli people and it has to with with sexual practices that God condemns:
20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
It has nothing to do with the Temple or idolatry. Moreover when this was spoken there was no Temple. These laws were commanded during Moses times and the Temple was constructed by King Solomon much, much later.
Next.
Sodom and Gibeah. In Sodom:
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round...5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
(know them means to know them as a man knows his wife...see the context) 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing;
The Book of Jude refers to this incident:
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example,
On Gibeah, a similar situation, it echoes the experience in Sodom some 1000 years before.
Judges 19:
22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
The phrase "Sons of Belial" is more than just a figure of speech. These men had entered a pagan cult that called for this behavior, probably one of the Baals. Raping a servant of Jehovah would be a combined religious and political act.
The offer of women was rejected, but the Levite sent out the concubine anyway. Nothing can justify this act; it shows just how deeply the moral decline had gone. Such treatment of women as animals is definitely not consistent with the Law. The result was the concubine was gang-raped to the extent she died. She had managed to crawl back to the gate of the courtyard.
This whole incident is horrendous. It does not say in any way don't be straight...it says don't rape or commit sodomy.
The Bible is clear on this matter, but, since you don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God than why concern yourself with it. In trashing Paul you trash the Bible since:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16–17).
God's Word is inspired.
2 Peter: "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (1:20–21).
It's perfectly understandable why you would detest Paul (Romans 1:24, 26-28), yet, if Paul is wrong...the Bible is wrong. You don't get to pick and choose.
Anti-Christian secularist don't want people to take the Bible 'literally'...this way anyone can read into it anything they wish. If the Bible says, do not lie...don't take it literally, because it really means such and such. Do not lie is somehow crptic and really means quite something else.
I love how Christians should not judge others, but, it's alright if you judge Paul. This is real nifty.
There is this myth about how there are all these interpretations of the Bible. Most Christians do not have different interpretations. Do not murder means do not murder. The main differences are regarding the Eucharist and Baptism. Even those differences are in matters of form not of essence.
How is it that everyone gets to dump on Christians, but, Christians are bad when they start dumping in return. You can judge Christians and tell them how they should act, but, if the Christians say anything about you it's judgmental...anyone can win with those slanted odds.
Well, I leave you all in your' Circus Maixmus Forum...bash on, but, remember God is very clear on the matter...it doesn't take a nuclear physicist to figure out what is plainly stated and really in no need of interpretation. Believe God or believe what you want to believe...it's your' prerogative.
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." [Isaiah 7:14]
This would have to be a miracle, because only men can pass on the male chromosome.
In the original language (Hebrew) the phrase "a virgin" is "HA ALMA" and should be translated "the virgin". They were to anticipate a particular virgin giving birth to a male child.
Some modern critics contest this translation saying that it should read: "... a young woman will conceive and bear a son ..." claiming that the Hebrew word "alma" simply means "a young woman" [Strong's number 5959].
If that is the case - why does Matthew 1:23 have "the virgin" (Greek "hay parthenos")? In this passage, a companion of the Lord Jesus - Matthew - is claiming that the birth of the Lord Jesus fulfilled this prophesy. Was Matthew mistaken?
The Hebrew words for "young woman" and for "virgin"
The Hebrew word "ALMA" is not the usual word for "young woman". The usual Hebrew word for a young woman is "NA'ARAH" [Strong's number 5291] which does not mean that she is necessarily a virgin. To stress virginity it is used in conjunction with "BETHOOLAW" [1330], "BETHOOLAW" being the usual word for virgin.
The following passages are examples of "NA'ARAH" used with "BETHOOLAW" to stress that the young women referred to are virgins:-
Genesis 24:16 ... the damsel [5291] was ... a virgin [1330], neither had any man known her ...
Deuteronomy 22:19 ... A hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel [5291], because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin [1330] of Israel ...
Deuteronomy 22:23 ... a damsel [5291] that is a virgin [1330] be betrothed ...
Deuteronomy 22:28 ... a damsel [5291] that is a virgin [1330], which is not betrothed ...
Judges 21:12 ... young [5291] virgins [1330], that had known no man by lying with any male ...
1 Kings 1:2 ... Let there be sought for my lord the king a young [5291] virgin [1330] ...
Esther 2:2 ... Let there be fair young [5291] virgins [1330] sought for the king:
Esther 2:3 ... that they may gather together all the fair young [5291] virgins [1330] ...
Back to Isaiah 7:14:-
If Isaiah simply meant "young woman," why did Isaiah not use the usual word for "young woman" - Why did he not use "NA'ARAH" ?
If Isaiah meant simply "a virgin," why did he not use the usual word for "virgin" - Why did he not use "BETHOOLAW" ?
Was there some special significance in the word "ALMA" that was lacking in "NA'ARAH" and in "BETHOOLAW"?
The Hebrew word "ALMA"
Let us examine the use of the word "ALMA" in the Hebrew scriptures.
Below is every occurrence of the word "ALMA" [5959] excluding the passage in question:-
Genesis 24:43 ... it shall come to pass, that when the virgin [5959] cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink ...
Exodus 2:8 ... the maid* [5959] went and called the child's mother. [* i.e. Moses' sister Miriam]
Psalms 68:25 ... the damsels [5959] playing with timbrels.
Proverbs 30:19 ... the way of a man with a maid [5959]
Song of Solomon 1:3 ... therefore do the virgins [5959] love thee.
Song of Solomon 6:8 There are ... virgins [5959] without number.
From an examination of the contexts of the examples cited above, it is evident that the young women referred to are virgins. They are eligible young women of marriageable age. They were of necessity chaste single young women.
Why did Isaiah use the word "ALMA" rather than "NA'ARAH" or "BETHOOLAW" ?
The word "NA'ARAH" signified a young woman whether single or married.
The word "BETHOOLAW" signified a virgin but not necessarily of marriageable age.
Only the word "ALMA" signified an eligible young woman, single and chaste.
An astounding sign fulfilled in detail.
God gave a sign that a single chaste young virgin of marriageable age would be pregnant - an unmarried as-born virgin pregnant! Amazing!
Mary was both a young chaste virgin and unmarried when she conceived and bore the child Jesus. (Matthew 1:18-21, Luke 1:26-35, 2:1-7)
The Greek of Matthew 1:23 has :
"the virgin (hay parthenos) in womb will have [a child]"
This is a very specific expression.
The Jewish nation was told to look out for a particular chaste virgin
who will be carrying a child in her womb.
This child would be called IMMANUEL - meaning - God with us !
This prediction was made over 700 years before it happened
and it was fulfilled to the letter
NOTES
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, the virgin* shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. * Hebrew "HA ALMA" [5959].
Matthew 1:23 Behold, the virgin* shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. *Greek "hay parthenos" [3933].
In the Greek Septuagint Version of the Hebrew scriptures (translated in the 3rd. century BC), this phrase [HA ALMA] is translated "hay parthenos", meaning "the virgin". The translators also rendered it "parthenos" in Genesis 24:43. However in the five other places they used Greek words "neanis", "neanidon", "neanides", meaning "young woman/young women". So it is evident that the Jewish scholars of that time had strong reason to translate "HA ALMA" by "hay parthenos" (the virgin) in Isaiah 7:14. Only since the inception of Christianity have they preferred to render it "young woman".
Koine Greek did not have a word to denote a chaste girl who had reached puberty and was therefore eligible for marriage. So the Septuagint translators were left with the choice of words expressing either their youthfulness or their virginity. It seems the translators used "parthenos" in Genesis 24:43 and Isaiah 7:14 having decided that virginity needed to be stressed, whereas in Exodus 2:8, Psalm 68:25, Proverbs 30:19, Song of Solomon 1:3 and 6:8 youthfulness was the predominant thought
The reason given in note 2 could also account for why "hay parthenos" was used in Matthew 1:23.
It is sometimes protested that "parthenos" was used for "temple virgins" and so did not imply chastity. That abuse of the word "parthenos" is not relevant. It was a gross misuse of the word to give an air of respectability to the despicable practice of worshippers having sex with priestesses.
"HA ALMA" / "hay parthenos" / "the virgin" - They were to anticipate a specific virgin.
Albert Barnes' commenting on Is. 7.14, says that the Sanhedrim unhesitatingly quoted Micah 5:2,3 to Herod as proof (Matt.2:6), that the expression "she which travaileth" or, "she that bears shall bear" - "she bearing shall bear" - refers evidently to some prediction of such a birth; and that the word "she that bears" seems to have been used somewhat as a proper name, to designate one who was well known, of whom there had been a definite prediction. The most likely possibilities are Isaiah 7:14 and Genesis 3:15 - the woman's seed. [See also THE Virgin's Son ]
Research notes on the uses of ALMA, BETHOOLAW, BETHOOLEEM, NAHARAH, PARTHENOS and PARTHENIA in the Bible
http://members.aol.com/d4web4sm/eusebos/05yngwmq.htm
But obviously I am just not getting something. Some keep saying that the bible is the word of God. But I think what is getting overlooked and has been pointed out is, who wrote it?
Some believe it is the Word of God and every word in the version taught to them is absolutely correct and lilteral. If the heavens and earth were created in 7 days, then that means 7 - 24 hour periods exactly. And well it goes on from there.
Some believe that it is the word of god as written by mankind and is meant to give some history, and parables and so on.
Some people believe that it is a book written by man in order to govern the masses.
I think everyone is certainly entitled to their own beliefs and views on these matters but that right ends at enflicting any harm on others in the name of.....
Peter - You keep mentioning that your parents voted for Bush because he has Jesus, which leaves me to ponder....Where does he keep Jesus? in Cheney's man sized safe? Why when Jesus tells him to be the President (why doesn't he act like one) or go to war with Iraq at all costs do people not question this as they did Joan of Arc? Not to mention all the other's throughout history who claimed God spoke to them and they were labeled (for at least a century or so) as mental cases? And did they think that Kerry, Gore and McCain were athiest or something? Are they aware that the president who is ranked the best in polls did not belong to a church and had no know religous affiliation? I digress.
The Bible isn't stupid but some interpretations are. And yes even if the Bible was properly interpreted word for word from generation to generation during it's oral history and then written down, and the governing groups who picked what went in and what didn't, and then even if the translators of all the languages known throughout time had still gotten it word for word correct....individual brains will still interpret what is in their very own language in front of their eyes.
So it is some people who are stupid. Some stupidity hides behind religion. Some hides behind "upbringing", some doesn't even hide and just rears its ugliness exactly for what it is, ignorant hatred.
To Christians the Bible is the Word of God...to non-Christians it's not. Let's just leave it at that. I don't tell you what to believe in, so, don't presume to tell me.
Lacey, the difference between Peter's title and yours is that his is about a book and yours is about people. A more correct title for you would be "Is the Joy of Gay Sex stupid..."
Felix, If you are sincere in your statement about not picking and choosing, do you then follow, attempt to follow, condemn those who do not follow, and beg for forgiveness every time you don't follow every command in Leviticus? (no little oinkers, no eating stuff planted from mixed fields, ritualistic cleansing of mildew, no mixed fiber clothing, stoning Peter for his blasphemy.) How many perfect female goats have you sacrificed for not following every law?
Gays in the Bible:
1 Samuel 18
1 After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. 2 From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house. 3 And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. 4 Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt.
God clearly values that relationship as Jonathan's love of David preserves the line that led to his son.
Marianne, the argument has a real tautological feel to it. The WORD is TRUTH. Yes it needs to be interpreted. But we can know if someone is interpreting it correctly because they will be filled with the SPIRIT. And we know they are filled with the SPIRIT because their interpretation is TRUTH and fulfills the WORD.
Neither David nor Jonathan were homosexual...they were friends that loved each other...don't you recognize any love besides sexual love?
Oh, and we don't need to make blood sacrifices anymore because of Christ offering on the cross or haven't you heard.
Hebrews 9:
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 10:
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
I think you'd better read the entire book of Hebrews since you seem to be in a fog concerning the old and the new testaments or should I say old and new covenants.
There were several laws and restrictions in the Old Testament that were not carried forth in the New Testament. For example, the wearing of a garment of mixed materials found in Deut. 22:11 is not mentioned in the New Testament. Various dietary restrictions were not carried forward into the New Testament as many other things were left as Christ came and fulfilled the Law of the Old Testament. For those who are a unsure of what that means, read the book of Galatians, particularly chapters 3 and 5. There are sins listed in the Old Testament that were listed in the New Testament. Murder, gossiping, stealing, lying, and sexual impurity are mentioned in both. See Acts 15 also.
There are differen't categories of Jewish laws. Some involve the Levitical Priesthood and since we are saved through faith in Jesus, we don't have to keep those laws. Some were symbolic of Israel's separation from the heathen nations, and we don't have to keep them. Then there are portions of the Jewish law like commandments against stealing, killing, committing adultery, etc., that we should observe.
Levitical laws concerning the priesthood and dietary laws were not continued under the new covenant...only the moral laws or behavioural laws.
Behavioral law is not ceremonial law. In other words, the laws on how we treat one another are not ceremonial law. Laws on murder, theft, adultery, sexual activity, etc., still stand. If you search, you will find much of the behavioral law of the Old Testament restated in the New.
Paul was not only against sex, he didn't care much for women in general. The earliest recorded misogynist. There is some qustion in the minds of some if Paul might have been gay.
Whatever he was, Paul is the one person with whom you can credit the success of the Christian church. Without his tireless efforts and ideas, the Christian church was destined to be a small segment of the Jewish religion and would likely have died out before now. But Paul put his belief, his ministry and his efforts into taking the church outside the Jewish religion and to the world, resulting in th church as we know it today.
The New Testiment gives all people a chance to serve a God. If followed as written it will provide us all a better way to live in a large group. I don't believe it is real enough for people all over the world to argue about. I don't believe any other text I have read it any better so I suggest we each pick what suits us best and stop trying to get everyone else to go along with us.
I like having a God I can talk to in private and without others getting into our conversation no matter what it is. I like to believe Jesus hold the door to my salvation if I only will believe in his words and gosple. This has served me well most of my life and even when my life was about to end. I didn't cry out to my God saying why have you forsaken me at my end point. I said that I was ready for him to take me, but would keep trying to remain alive until I failed and was in his care. Isn't this enough to allow use all to be in peace with each other and our God? It is for me, as I love everyone until you hurt me, than I may cry, and look for another that may be good to me.