4,000 military deaths in Iraq

Small number compared to Viet Nam, Korea, WW-2 or WW-1. People need to realize....war kills....way too many folks refuse to accept that wear means death & dying along with maiming & crippling. Those who serve or have served understand this and are willing to accept that fact of life. Way too many civilians fo not, cannot & will not....! They mouth & espouse how they support their troops but they do not support them when they ignore & do not respect their right to be soldiers/seamen/marines/airmen & do their jobs to the end.

Terrible. The war is a nasty awful mistake. Our troops have no job there. They should come home.

It is about 4,000 more than it should have been, and it is a sad reminder of those young men and women who have given their lives. It also reminds me that the number of servicemembers' deaths is just a small fraction of the total deaths that have resulted from this war that could have been prevented.

Here's a "remembrance" that was on NPR yesterday. It features relatives and friends of a few of those servicepeople who have died there. Much more affecting than other comments I heard/read yesterday.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88984781

Notice that 4,000 figure is "military deaths" - that doesn't even begin to touch on the number of civilian deaths from our "outsourced war". Those employees of contractors (read KBR/Halliburton) who have taken most of the shit work in Iraq are the invisible sufferers. They are just guys trying to do a job. Unfortunately their company is engaged in criminal behavior and they get even less support when they get home than our wounded vets who have had a bundle of problems of their own. Then lets talk about innocent Iraqi deaths. Our government and our military couldn't care less.

Where I work a milestone is an accomplishment, something to be proud of. Is this what we are calling a milestone? 4000 young American men dead? I admire every brave soldier who fights for freedom, but that is not the same as admiring the motives that got them there. This breaks my heart.

The media uses any tactic or information they can to get us to listen to them. They just see an opportunity to get us all up in arms again so they do it.

I think each of the deaths are as important as the others are. Each death is a person who gave their life to protect others. Each of them are heros in my book. number 1 is just as much a hero as number 4,000

As I've said before, I love when these numbers are gleefully posted without counting the 3000+ that died right here in the US on 9/11/01.

But that's political nature. There's not doubt in my mind that if a democrat was in power when the attack happened, he or she would have taken similar action, and the opposing party would be doing and saying anything and everything to portray that action as failur -- just to get back in office.

The Tonys of the world rejoice in US soldier deaths, because they're totally invested in American forces losing in Iraq. What's worse is when they say something stupid like "I love the troops, but I hate the war".

That just means you don't respect them being what they are - soldiers.

Tony, I want you to know that your bigotry has been noticed.

Hi there.

Congratulations on your Gather homepage feature, here's a 10 rating & have a nice day.

Every loss is significant but what makes the number of 4,000 significant?

Nothing. It is merely a number the demos will use for ostensible political gain.

To all I must say I read the entire thing including all comments and have to say that although I seem to agree with a large amount of the content in this forum a lot of it I just cannot believe. Just because you disagree with something or someone doesn't mean you don't respect them in fact I think if you truly respect the men and women who have sacrificed so much in Iraq you must speak out against the senseless war which seems to have no end in sight no matter who gets elected President this Fall. Clearly we cannot just leave all at once like Obama would like but we cannot stay forever either as the Republicans would have you believe. So what should we do I believe that the best way to honor those who have given their lives, and limbs is to prevent more of the same from happening. 4,o000 casualties does not tell the whole story. No one knows exactly how many American lives have been destroyed by the current administration's decision to go into Iraq in the first place . I mean how many spouses and children have loved ones that they will never see again and if they do how many will never be the same again.What about this mother who's son was killed while she was over there in Iraq. How many of the Veterans will come home with PTSD and other mental traumas and commit suicide or just have a ruined life? Going back to a comment I read about what we should have done after 9/11 I think we should have kept our pursuit of Osama Bin Laden in the mountains of Tora -Bora. While this would not have prevented all deaths that occurred in Iraq it would have prevented most of them. So now you tell me why we are in Iraq again? Are we truly there to establish peace in that part of the world?It sure doesn't seem like it to me, but like they say hind sight is 20-20. All I know is that we should get our troops home as soon as possible. After all their war is just beginning once they get home it continues for the rest of their lives... It really pisses me off when I hear people say that war is like that and we should expect death and dismemberment after all they knew what they were getting in to. That sounds like the incompetent V.P we now have. furthermore, the troops assumed that the administration who has the final word on what they do and don't do would use Responsibility before sending them in harms way. Kate I agree with you the word "accomplishment" should not be used to describe the amount of deathsof any of our troops.
Lenin Patino
http://www.LeninPatino.com

Lenin seems to be appropriately named *chuckle*

4000 is not a small number.. nobody( insert expectation here) would scoff at $4000, and many have argued over less.. But when someone's son/daughter/mother/father die they are called an unfortunate accepted loss, and considered the life of a solider? no big deal? 2974 people died in 9/11, that was called a great tragedy.. A great Army and technologically advanced solider should be cleaning clocks there.. A larger force was pushed back from Kuwait with less loss of lives. But, I feel, poor planning, poor higher up tactical decisions, and slow, or the lack of, well thought out execution have caused more loss of lives then should have.. The army is spending more time(more lives) in Iraq being police then what an Army should be used for. A broad sword, not a night stick.

"Every loss is significant but what makes the number of 4,000 significant?

Nothing. It is merely a number the demos will use for ostensible political gain."

Then whats significant of thousand, million or two million, or a billion.. merely a big number? of dollars, of lives lost, homes foreclosed or people like you in the world.. remember it 5 years, but that just a number too..

Then whats significant of thousand, million or two million, or a billion

nothing-- they are just numbers, particularly when tied to the number of deaths in any given war.

Are you suggesting that before we go to war, we randomly select a number for deaths, and when reached, we simply pull out before the job is done ???

Do you really believe anyone would try to pass legislation that would tie the hands of the CiC and the military??? Hell it probably wouldn't even be Constitutional, and would be cut down as soon as it passed.

When you make a decision to go to war, you go and do the job, and count the number of wounded or killed, AFTER the fact --- you don't just stop the war because X number of people have died as a result of going to war.

You fight the battle until it is done, and you've been victorious, or defeated, it's just that simple.

i think it is horrible. i loathe war. and, the 4,000 is a small number compared to all the injured, and that should count, too, in the casualties. so many lives lost, in more ways than one. so sad.

I agree completely with Justin an Army as powerful, well trained, and with superior technology should as the US Army should not be used as police officers and have spent too much time in Iraq due to a lack of planning and poor decisions. It further saddens me that support for the war was based on lies and emotions of the American "people. 4,000 might be just a number but think about this . I heard a news person say that setting a time table for withdrawal would be like telling a football team ok we will play until the end of the third quarter then we will go home" at first it made perfect sense, but after thinking it through keeping our troops there without a final objective is like telling the team ok we are going to play who knows until when but there is no game over or score so it doesn't matter how many points you score or give up. Thank you
Lenin Patino
LeninPatino.com

It further saddens me that support for the war was based on lies

what crapola, you silly, named after a commie, boy *G*

keeping our troops there without a final objective

Only irrational bush haters like you pretend there is no "final objective."

Well said Dubby, even though I would very skeptical about the numbers Rep Steve King (I'm taking your word he said it) presented-- just because I politician says it, doesn't mean it's true.

I'd like to know how he compiled those numbers before I give it any credibility.

Only irrational bush haters like you pretend there is no "final objective."

Ok Jack so tell me how do you defeat an enemy who cannot be defined or seen? How do we defeat a hatred that has been there for hundreds of years? Not by killing more of the people that hate us that will only make things worse. I thought we went into Iraq to find WMD, but when we didnt find any the administration had to justify the needless sacrifice of our troops so they looked for reasons such as to get Saddam iout of power which by the way I am completely in agreement with but once we got him we stayed " to rid the world of terrorists and to establish a democracy which would stabilize the region, but guess what we have not done that after 5 long years and thousands of deaths and dismemberments. In regards to my name it may be from a comi but believe me when I tell you that I am as proud an American a you are. In fact if you want to and don't believe me look at my site at LeninPatino.com oh and I'd rather not talk about you and your name. Going back to the facts you know I am not a Bush hater like you say; However I cannot say that he is on my favorite Presidents list since he has done nothing but harm the American name world wide even after 9-11 when we the US had the support of the entire world instead of knowing how to focus that support on our enemy he alienated the nation even tarnished our name all over the world... not to mention what he is doing to our troops by putting them in in harms way!
thank you Lenin Patino

Tell yourself whatever makes you feel the best Ivan, and pretend I said it instead. *chuckle*

so they looked for reasons such as to get Saddam iout of power

Uh, moron-- Bill Clinton signed the "regime change" into law, NOT BUSH ! ! !

I'd rather not talk about you and your name

you're above all that shit, eh ??? *ROFL*

Going back to the facts you know I am not a Bush hater like you say how exactly do I know that ??? Hell, I don't even recall seeing you before this thread started. GEE, you sure sound like a liberal loser.

However I cannot say that he is on my favorite Presidents list

Mine either. I didn't vote for him, or his daddy. The only things I agree with the current Bush admin are 1) selection of USSC justices. 2) lower and lower taxes 3) The Middle East Initiative, of which, the liberation of Iraq is just the first step in a long term journey.

since he has done nothing but harm the American name

The rest of the word is irrelevant, and the "ugly american" syndrome was around long before bush came to town. The rest of the world has spent the last 60 years hating the US for our success, and super power status, even some of our own "allies."

Bush is doing to our military, what they signed up for: find, destroy, kill-- and nothing any other CiC that has gone to war in the past.

4000, 3999, 4005 - people who are now gone. I think that at any time, for any reason, we have the fact that our fellow citizens are being killed and wounded set up in front of us to witness and be made aware of is important.

Numbers, media, Bush, whatever - people are being killed. Now 4000, maybe 4001 now, 4002? Let's count every single one.

I wish the media would create a special article for every single one so that we could no them better, their faimlies, their dreams.

Jack you still didn't answer my question to begin with which is how do you defeat an enemy who cannot be defined or seen? How do we defeat a hatred that has been there for hundreds of years?
2. you mention you like lower and lower taxes
Wow how ignorat and nieve yeah you might get a $300 refund but that is nothing compared to how much the cost of life is going up under Bush the price of gas has more than doubled and tell me how many times a year do you fill up your car? Health care is also going to the s*itter Not to mention college tuition has also increased significantly. The US is now in debt up their a** and instead of fixing the problems here at home we send our Military to police the Middle east which in case you didn't know is costing taxpayers billions of dollars.
3.There is a couple of things you said I agree with and those are that whatever the rest of the world says is irirrelevant and that The rest of the world has spent the last 60 years hating the US for our success, and super power status, but what I am saying is that since 9-11
that sentiment has spread even more
also the comment of"you sure sound like a liberal loser." tell you what think wut you want Im not liberal I think all politicians are stupid liars but Id rather be considered libera than a tight ass hard headed Bush supporter like you.
Lenin Patino

I'm sorry that you had that experience but when I lived in South America the United States was were looked up to by most, but now when I occasionally visit and it is a different story, furthermore Bill Clinton was well liked and respected. Not so with George Bush. By the way Dubby you say your son is in the Army if so then thank him from me. I hope he is not placed in harms way. I have a question for you though, what does illegal immigration have to do with the war in Iraq? I agrre that it is dumb and irresponsible for police officers not to arrest them or question their legality and for the media not to make a bigger deal about it, as far as your friend I hope she gets to a point in her life where she can feel better.
Thank you, Lenin Patino
http://ww.LeninPsatino.com

Jack you still didn't answer my question to begin with which is how do you defeat an enemy who cannot be defined or seen?

Who says it can't be defined or seen ??? What do you think al qaeda is ??? It is a label for a group of terrorists that are WELL DEFINED, and they certainly aren't invisible.

How do we defeat a hatred that has been there for hundreds of years?

We don't have to-- Israel, Jordon, Syria, even Iraq, all have citizens of all three of the biggests faiths. Do they all live in peace together??? Well, YES, for the most part.

Sure we see all kinds of problems in Israel, but nothing they can't handle, and only a small portion of the people living in Israel are actually out to destroy Israel.

how many times a year do you fill up your car?

52 times, once a week. A full tank used to cost me about 9-10 bux, now it costs 30.00-- so I'm paying about triple what I used to pay, big deal.

If gasoline had kept pace with inflation, the cost of gasoline would have risen every year. The fact is, gasoline now--- with dollars adjusted for inflation, gasoline now, is the exact same price it was over 2 decades ago.

In inflation-adjusted dollars, gasoline prices paid at the pump have been on a steady rate of decline since the 1920s, with the exception of the 1970s, when we faced an OPEC embargo and gasoline lines. In 1920 the real price of gas (excluding taxes) was twice as high as today. Electricity prices were about three times higher 75 years ago.

If gas prices were as high today as they were in the late 1970s, we would now be paying about $6 a gallon for gas. Today's price at the pump is lower than it was as recently as 1985. SOURCE

The US is now in debt up their a**

Again, your statement is ONLY "true" IF you do not adjust for inflation. In fact, our current debt is less than 10% of GDP--- historically, nothing drastic.

I'm not a Bush supporter, I didn't vote for him or his daddy. I find them to be closet liberals, and certainly NOT conservatives. I only agree with a handful of issues Bush has taken. I'll be glad to see him go, to tell you the truth.

dang it *chuckle* it didn't get the whole picture, clipped on the right-- the end of that line is about 8-9%-- you can still readily see it is below 1o%

Good stuff Dubby ! ! !

I see you did your research Jacka**. Congratulations on a great post but let me try to answer going into Iraq was wrong because

First of all, back in 2001 our troops had Osama and some of his top men trapped in the Torah-Bora Mountains when Bush made the decision to take a large number of troops to Iraq on a made up WMD chase. This not only permitted Osama to escape, but also spread our troops and resources too thin to impact the war on terror:
"The invasion of Iraq not only failed to help the war on terrorism, but it represented a substantial setback" as stated here which goes on to fully prove my point that we should not have gone into Iraq in fact which in fact this has not only diverted resources and attention away from Afghanistan, seriously damaging the prospects of capturing Al Qaeda leaders, but it has also opened a new front for terrorists in Iraq and created a new justification for attacking Westerners around the world. Perhaps most important, it has dramatically sped up the process by which Al Qaeda the organization has morphed into a broad-based ideological movement
The article also mentions that even Vincent Cannistraro, a former chief of counterterrorism at the CIA under presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush, says the Iraq war "accelerated terrorism" by "metastasizing""
As far as gas prices and the deficit I have I stand corrected for now.
Lenin Patino
http://www.LeninPatino.com

As for you Dubby I believe you when you say that you understand war better than most Americans but believe me when I tell you that I am unlike most Americans in that at the age of 18 I was shot in the head while in the Army and lived in VA hospitals for nearly twenty months where I too got to speak with many WWII, Vietnam, Korean war veterans all of who were disabled a lot by old age and disease but a large number of whom were victims of war so I too have a very good understanding of what war is all about. As far as your son going off to Iraq I am glad that you are proud of him and willing to accept whatever harm comes his way ( hopefully none) but believe me when I tell you that he will never be the same as before he left. In case he is injured and you should need some help in getting his proper benefits I have a page on my site which contains a lot of helpful information oh and I also agree with you in that we should pay more attention to illegal immigration; however you make it sound like if they are all crooks and murderers which is not so. In fact they are mostly hardworking honest people; yeah they have gotten a bad reputation based on a small percentage of them. But tell me what group doesn't have any "bad apples" Also if we cut off all services to them there will be a higher concentration of poverty, and illness everywhere, causing perhaps epidemics and more crime , I think that would be worse for the country. I think what we should do is enforce the laws that are already in the books to deal with the 12 million of illegal immigrants that are here already and then figure out a way to secure our southern border whether it be a physical or virtual fence, National Guard or whatever it takes. Of course we would be skating on thin ice since this country has never closed its doors to anyone and has always advocated for the concept that everyone is equal and therefore should have the same rights. Although not optimistic I do hope the next administration will bring a solution to the illegal immigration problem. I truly hope nothing bad happens to your son or any other US soldier
Thank you
Lenin Patino
sorry couldn't figure out how to link in this forum but here is the URL to the article I referred to
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/07/07_401.html

I think its extremely sad to think about. Every life is important and its tragic that this could have been somewhat avoided.

Hey Dubby look for the most part I agree with you on the illegal immigration thing, but I think that at least in theory the logical solution is to punish employers who hire them, after all if they come here to make money and support their families in their home country, so if there is no way to earn money they won't come. I think that the ones that are here and productive to society already should be allowed to go to the back of the line and start their legal immigration process. Secondly I believe police officers, and other authorities should be allowed and required to check people's immigration status, and hand over the illegals to another agency that would be responsible for sending them back to their country in a timely manner. Finally, w need to secure all borders with a virtual fence and more higher paid personnel I also believe that border patrol agents should not be made to feel like if they do their job they will get arrested like what happened to Ramos and Compean a couple of border patrol agents who got a long prison sentence for shooting a drug dealer who was trying to cross the Texas border. Now we can get back to whatever subject you like
Thank you Lenin Patino
oh yeah here is the direct link to the page on my site where there is a lot of Veterans benefit information http://www.leninpatino.com/helpforveterans.html please pass it on to anyone you feel might need it