John 10.30 I and my Father are one.
Why would I hope Jesus is wrong here?
Before answering that let me discuss a bit of the context of this verse. This verse followed a discourse of the good shepherd that guarded the sheep and willingly would give up his life for the sheep. This was a discourse he was sharing with the religious leaders who were so unlike this good shepherd concerning their flock; the people of Israel. Before this discourse in Chapter 9 these leaders banished the blind man that was healed by Christ from the temple. This was not a good shepherdly act and Christ was calling them on this.
Why do I hope Jesus is wrong? Because so many that don't believe Jesus equated himself with God would be wrong. So many people that dismiss Jesus as a good man, a good teacher, an important figure of history but do not consider him to be God and do not consider that he was serious when he said that only through faith in him can we be reconciled with God.
Jesus does not give us the leeway to dismiss him in this way when he equates himself with God. Jesus cannot be all these great things if this verse is not true. He would be delusional, crazy or a liar and we should discount him entirely if we don't believe what he says in John 10.30. This is a concept initially proposed by C.S. Lewis.
Too many of us want to do just that though. And for their sake either I hope they reconcile yourself to the fact either Christ is correct and is God and also the only way we can be reconciled to God or I hope Jesus was wrong and they will not suffer the judgement to come if they were wrong and they were not reconciled to God through Jesus.
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Comments: 71
Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. At this Jesus said to them, 'I have set before you many good deeds, done by my Father's power; for which of these would you stone me?' The Jews replied, 'We are not going to stone you for any good deed, but for your blasphemy. You a mere man, claim to be a god.' Jesus answered, 'it is not written in your own law, 'I said : You are gods'? Those are called gods to whom the word of god was delivered - and Scripture cannot be set aside. Then why do you charge me with blasphemy because I consecrated and sent into the world by the father. And said, 'I am God's son.
I would suggest here that one need think of the entirety of these words.
I for example am in this world, why? Which is what Jesus was addressing. And are we all here in this world because of god and for no other reason? Therefore, can not we all state that we are all sons and daughters of god?
You are correct in saying Jesus is God's son. I am correct in saying Jesus is God. I also believe Jesus is God's Son.
Jesus said he is God, the concept of the Trinity said he was God, Genesis refers to him at creation; See Genesis 1.26:
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
He refers to himself as God in this and in other passages. In John 8.58 Jesus said:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
This to us seems innocent; but the religious leaders were ready to stone him because he by saying this; he is saying he is God.
In Mark 14; Jesus damns himself before the Sanhedrin by saying he is God:
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63 The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64 "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
They all condemned him as worthy of death.
So Shawn, you are correct but you are also missing some of the point. Jesus is the son of God; Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus is God but somehow Jesus also has the office of being the Son of God.
I am confused myself the more I think about it, but so much higher are God's ways than my ways and God's thoughts than my thoughts.
The passage you quote has confused me at times and I don't really expect that even now I can explain it. Anyone else that wants to take a stab; go for it.
As for your question above - we are here, we are created to glorify God. That is the simple truth.
God is glorified when we accept his reconciliation for our sins.
God is glorified when we do good works in his name.
God is glorified when the church grows and people that do not know him get to know him and become sons and daughters - we are his sons and daughters when we accept his reconciliation and allow him to adopt us as his sons and daughters.
But God is also glorified when we reject him and abuse him and renounce him and say he does not exist and abuse him and abuse his servants. How? He is glorified because he has a remnant that will always stand for the truth. He is glorified because he shows he is love by continuing to call out and seek those that reject him. And he is glorified by showing his grace and mercy to all these that reject him by not destroying them already and he is glorified in that he adopts some of us that have so abused, disowned and rejected him.
We have all been in this later camp. And God is glorified no matter whether we accept and submit or not. He says in Matthew 11.29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."
Bob Dylan song a song years ago; you got to serve someone. We can take his yoke or the yoke of the world and satan.
But he will be glorifed no matter our choice.
This is the same as what you stated prior.
However, I can understand why one is not able to understand it.
For it is stated by Jesus that we are all god. However, some can't cope with that type of statement. But it would be good to remember that we all are here on this earth by the grace of god the father.
Therefore, God is my father also as God is also your father. All life on this earth is here only because of the grace of god, and no other reason. Therefore we all have God as our father, and will all be with God when we all leave this place.
The section cited in John 10 32-35 is one of the most misquoted sections of the Bible. Jesus is being sarcastic with the Pharisees. If you read the Scripture He is citing in Psalms 82 is about God standing in judgment of all idols ("gods"). Since the Pharisees had elevated themselves to the level of God's chosen spokesman, above and beyond the rest of the Jewish people, this is a slap at them telling them that they in fact are NOT gods. Jesus knew that the Pharisees, unlike many who misuse His Scripture quote, would understand the context. As evidence by their behavior, the Sanhedrin did understand the context and "Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (v 39).
Also, look at verification in the mock trial the night of His death. In three out of four Gospels Jesus is accused of being the - THE - Son of God. This was equated with the Jewish tradition and the Law as BEING God. So to believe that Jesus is the SON of God is to believe that He IS God. Besides - note how Jesus responded in Mark's Gospel:
"Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, 'Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?' But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?' 'I am,' said Jesus." - Mark 14:60-62
" 'I am,' said Jesus."
This is the most telling use of Jesus admitting that He is in fact God - His use of the term, "I Am." This requires an understanding of historical context and significance. The Jews that Jesus interacted NEVER used that term in conjunction with themselves. And Jesus used it liberally:
I am... willing to heal (Matt 8:3); the bread of life (John 6:512); the good shepherd (John 10:11 & 10:14); the way, the truth and the life (John 14:6); resurrection and the life (John 11:25); true vine (John 15:1), etc.
The most telling came in John 8:58 in which Jesus made absolutely no mistake about what He was saying: " 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." Note that in verse 59 they picked up stones to kill Him - because there was no mistaking that Jesus called Himself God.
Even if we had a recording on videotape lawyers would still spin it all sorts of ways to make it mean what they want.
God is certainly God of all; but those of us that do not chose to accept his reconcilement; that being through Jesus will be separated from God.
Joe W. mentioned updates due to the interpretation of more evidence, more documents; most notably the Dead Sea Scrolls. These did nothing to contradict the holy scriptures; but enhance and offer further evidence of the interpretations from antiquity having been fairly accurate.
As far as spin; I must admit we are all going to be guilty of this based on where we come from and the knowledge we have. The wonderful thing about the Gospel; that is the good news of God's love and salvation for mankind, is that it is simple enough for a child to understand and come to Jesus but complicated enough and difficult enough to understand that Nicodemus, one of the teachers of the time had difficulty with understanding what Christ told him was a simple truth; that you must be born again.
This is a paradox. Something I study and think I understand looked at from another angle may throw me into confusion, regarding some of Christ's teachings. Ultimately believing even though not completely understanding puts me in the same camp with Peter and his response in John 6.68 of "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." I find myself here quite often when I reach an area that I cannot completely understand; whether it be something from scripture or why my brother or friend suffer so much even though they serve God?
Refer to my comment of 2:45 pm. We are here by God, for God, because of God, to Glorify God. I might suggest for further evidence consider reading the book of Job; especially towards the end when God responds to Job. God will not be put on the stand by mere man!
Give me a better answer if you like.
I don't dispute that our souls have lay in waiting for eternity until we were chosen by God to be placed on earth. I'm sure that Donald desn';t either, although I will not speak for him. This is a Biblical concept (Psalms 139) . Nor do I deny that our souls will continue to exist for eternity. But to throw a New Age twist on Jesus not only dismisses His truth, it dismisses Him altogether.
Do you read non-fiction literature? Tales of history? I personally am a history buff because I see the human interaction over the centuries. Did you make up the details of the Roman Empire? Of Alexander the Great? Perhaps the details of the Peloponnesian War didn't suit you so you decided to design your own. That is what I hear you saying. But if you do accept them and study history you will ultimately see the hand of God in every layer as it exposes human nature as corruptible and frail. And history simply reinforces the idea that we need a savor. The Bible offers the answer to that - Jesus of Nazareth, only natural (not adopted) and perfect Son of God.
How can one profess to claim Jesus as Savior and yet reject His Word? Here's the deal - if Jesus is not God & didn't do what He said, then God is a liar. If God is a liar He cannot be God. To reject the Bible is to reject Christ as the Messiah and Redeemer of the world, and to reject Christ as Savior & Redeemer means that yo believe He is nothing more than mere mortal. If He s simply mortal then what is the point of singling Him out at all? Jesus was hardly the only spiritual person who stood up to the Romans & the Sanhedrin. He was not even the only Jew crucified on that day - and I guarantee that more than just the three spoken of in the Bible were hung from crosses that very day. So if He is not God, what makes Jesus special? In your estimation, apparently nothing. And that makes my heart hurt - to know that you would reject the love and salvation of the Father. I pray that you will review your opinions and allow the truth to wash over you. Because the truth in and of itself can't set you free unless you see it, recognize it and accept it (John 8:32)
Some 60,000 years ago a single African male ancestor, based upon all the DNA of samples of all the human population on Earth, is the great, great grandfather etc, of every human that is alive on this Earth today. That has been proven.
Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) is a nucleic acid that contains the genetic instructions used in the development and functioning of all known living organisms. Each spiral strand of DNA, composed of a sugar phosphate backbone and attached bases, is connected to a complementary strand by hydrogen bonding (non- covalent) between paired bases, adenine (A) with thymine (T) and guanine (G) with cytosine (C).
Therefore all the living organisms are basically the same. Be they Fish, Fly, Spider, Worm, Ox, Monkey, Donkey or Human.
Therefore we all are cousins on this Earth and have common ancestors.
I never said that I reject Jesus, you said that.
I said that I am the same as Jesus.
The above has been proven? That is still in much dispute. Even history from 50 years ago is subject to dispute. (Eg. the Kennedy assassination is one of the most disputed events in the last 50 years) You have a much greater faith than I, if you consider the above statement proven and a lock tight cinch to be true.
My faith is in Christ and if I am wrong, I believe the risk is worth it. But if you are wrong and that box, the Bible is correct, where does that leave you?
As for what Joe said; I may beg to differ only on the eternity of our souls. I think our souls were either created and thus have a beginning. I don't think we existed as God and therefore not uncaused. I do think that once we were created; whether that was at the time God created this planet; or whether God is still in the creating business and he creates souls as people are born, I don't know. But I do believe that our souls once created; are eternal going forward, and will never die and thus will live with God or apart from God in Hell, Gehenna, Damnation, the bottomless pit, or whatever else you want to call the place of eternal death and punishment.
Having said that I dispute Joe's point; I cannot prove my point and I don't think he can prove his. If you can Joe; surprise me. I've been wrong before.
If you believe the Bible is correct then I would think that you live or believe in a fantasy world and not the real world, however, I won't go very far down that road as I can't argue my point at all with a person that believes so.
Where is it said in the bible, by Jesus, as to what will happen to those that do not believe as he or in him?
I can't prove my belief. Either way seems feasible to me. I can tell you why I believe it though - it's because I believe that God has a plan for each of us. In order for His plan to be perfect - and I believe that God is perfection and cannot have any imperfection in Him - I think He has to have the Master Plan in place since the beginning of creation. Whether our souls physically existed at that time or whether they are created on an "as needed" basis is immaterial to me but seems to be the difference in our thinking. A I sad, both seem equally feasible to me.
Richard,
George Santayana said (and is often misquoted) that anyone who doesn't understand the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. That is paraphrased except for the use of the word doomed. Not destined, fated or otherwise affected - doomed. That is why an understanding of history and its context is so important when dealing with human matters. All human matters. And why rewriting history books to suit teh whim of the times is one of the most unconscionable acts anyone can commit. Beause it robs correct perspective from the present & the future.
Science has shown itself to be fallible all throughout history. Leakey's Java Man was discovered to be made up of three hominid bones and several partial orangutan skeletons. That and a lively imagination. Professor Langley's flying machine in the late 19hj Century proved beyond doubt to the people at the time that manned flight was impossible, Good thing the Wright brothers didn't listen and instead learned from Langley's historical mistakes.
The point is that humanity's handling of science, and every other tool for that matter, is faulty. It starts from the faulty assumption that humanity is the master of this planet and that our view can be trusted completely. If anything, history has proven this to be false beyond any doubt. Yet some cling to the idea that humanity's logic can be trusted above any other source. here must be, and is, a larger driving force. Every person has the concept of God within him/herself - we just cloud it with our own delusions of grandeur.
The DNA source may or may not be true. My Bible says that Adam was the first human being and that everyone alive is a descendant of Adam. So I don't have a problem with a single source of human DNA - that is a Biblical statement that jibes with creation. But all DNA is not the same, and all species have not emerged magically from the same source without any reason or external force. It requires a LOT more faith for me to believe Darwin's bit of fantastic nonsense than it does for me to believe that the Bible view is true.
But allow me to get back to the statements about Jesus. You and Jesus and I are made of the same material physically. But the difference between all of us and Jesus is that He is God. One hundred percent human, one hundred percent God - the paradox of the Savior. That is this reason I still maintain that you reject Jesus - because you reject His claims of divinity and Messianic uniqueness. Even if you say that Jesus is God, that implies hat we are all God as well - and that is patently. Going back to my opening of this post - God is perfect. Humans are imperfect. Therefore humans cannot be God. Period. There is not other possibility. Unless one chooses to not believe in God. Which is where I think you are coming from and why I reiterate my belief that you reject Jesus.
Good points Dar. National Geographic is notorious for accepting false data, publishing ti as factual and then fighting tooth and nail to maintain its validity until it hires another hack to disprove what it is fighting about. Forged fossils, specimens attributed to a certain location that have come from a different location, additions to the controls in recreation experiments that never existed in the originals so that they could falsely prove their flimsy hypotheses right - all of these are legendary at NG. I was unaware of what you said about IBM but having worked for them in the past I don't find it difficult to believe at all.
As to the "Scientific Community" walking lockstep with the National Geographic and all scientists agreeing with one another; I find that about as feasible as all Christians agreeing 100% of the time. We do not always agree with one another and neither do scientist. The fact that someone thinks they do; as I said earlier requires a higher level of faith then I need to exhibit in my belief in the Bible.
And the wonderful fact is, is that we can agree to disagree with some of these minor points. For people that see an inconsistency here; it is not an inconsistency. The Bible leaves enough mystery for us to research and speculate about. Our speculations may both be in line with scripture and not necessarily be in total agreement with one another.
The ultimate goal and mission of all Christians should be to love the Lord God and to love others as they love themselves. We are to love others enough to let them know how much Jesus Christ loved them by dying for them and how much God love them by giving his only Son to die for them and how much the Holy Spirit loves them by being always ready to minister to them in spirit and in truth.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977030292
Back to that DNA issue. There is one genetic marker or set of DNA that has been passed down from the same father to 90 percent of all the folks on Earth and are his offsprings, while there is another genetic marker or DNA set that has been passed down to 100 percent of all the people on Earth which are also his offsprings. However, at the current time the DNA of the folks vary as much as eleven percent, and that is more of a variance than is found in the variance of the DNA between the Human and the Chimp population, which is irrelevant also
I do tho understand why the religious don't want to hear such stuff, and don't accept such stuff. But I'm not going to wait 200 some odd years for the religious to understand, as one can find out in that.
If one wants to they can contact The National Geographic Genome Project to find out their own ancestral trek from where their ancestors went and came from to up to today, if one so desires.
Having said that, let me clarify:
1) The Biblical model agrees with the assessment that all humans originated from the same individual DNA source - Adam.
2) Humans are imperfect and therefore subject to mistakes and fallibility. Even when we apply our best minds and our best intent, we still go wrong. That to me, makes any claims of fact based on human terms to be suspect.
3) Since we are imperfect and Jesus was perfect, the delineation has to be at some point - His deity. So since He is perfect God and we are imperfect humans, Jesus and any/all of us are not the same.
4) In order to provide a clean path to God and a method of understanding His mind and will, God provide the Scripture. Although they were written by human hands, the Word came directly from God Himself and because of His plan, His perfection and His unending ability, God was able to take this single piece of humanity and perfect it (the Bible). As a Christian I believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God.
5) Without that assumption all other ideas about God are simply guessing games based on human emotion, desire and fallibility. That is why God has distinguished Himself from among the idols - because God is, in and of Himself, and the idols are simply human creations.
6) Without the Bible as the basis for belief, any thoughts of Jesus are limited and incomplete, primarily because they dismiss His divinity. And with that, they dismiss the essence of the Christ and His true purpose on earth.
But I also know that there is no point to continue the argument at all.
Richard, I actually will agree with this; it proves either Noah and his family or perhaps it proves and goes back as far as Adam and Eve. The Bible had both events occurring when humankind started at virtually square one or ground zero.
Thank you Dar; I will look into that.
I knew from your writing that you disagreed when I wrote them down. But my basis goes forth on the Bible instead of human guesswork. You will obviously disagree with that as well because you don't accept the deity of Christ. And that is the starting point for Christianity. From my association with Donald I am certain that it is his starting point as well - as evidenced by several things he said in this discussion. I hoped that by presenting the Biblical view in logical terms that you would set aside your prejudice against the idea of God and the Messiah as laid out in the book of "fantasy" as you put it. Obviously you've made up your mind. We will have to agree to disagree. I wish you well and pray that something in your life causes you to rethink this position and that you will join the family of God as another of His adopted children under the blood of Jesus. In the mean time, take care.
"Why I Hope Jesus is Wrong"
This is an affront to both Christ, and common sense, I feel. Would it not be far wiser to hope one's own understanding of what Christ said was in error? Christ is not something you or I might imagine, to be picked at by our embryonic sense of justice. He is Lord of Lords, and not the fullfiller of man's sentimental whims.
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.
If they have called the master of the house of Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household ?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~Gospel of John:1:1~
"Then He said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.' Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!' Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'" ~John 20:27-29~
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." ~Colossians 2:9~
"The Father and I are one." ~John 10:30~
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." ~Isaiah 9:6~
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. ~Isaiah 7:14~ (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." ~Matthew 1:23~
"...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" ~John 14:9~
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" ~Titus 2:13~
You are correct in that I believe Jesus was only a man just like all other men, but I also say that the teachings of Jesus are of great value and on par with the teachings of very few others, like Buddha. And would help all that follow him in leading a beneficial life. And that I see as a very good thing.
As you say I don't agree with folks putting Jesus on that pedestal like Osiris and Hercules and calling him a deity. As well as many of the other words in that book many call the 'word of god' that was written by men most of which had political agendas.
For Felix I agree; "Jesus is God."
For John; I am sorry you are offended by the title of this series. I hope before you took such a harsh judgement you review parts 1-3 of the series. The point in my series is not to insinuate Jesus is wrong. I think all he said is right; I believe he is God and to be worshipped as such; put on a pedestal as Richard said. But unfortunately many do not believe this and for them comes the title and I hope thought provoking discussion of many things Jesus said that they disagree with.
My wishful thinking is because ultimately; I believe all will be judged; (I think part II or part III) and many are not prepared for that day. Unless people come to the conclusion that Jesus is God and their saviour and accept him as Lord and God; they are doomed.
There is no intention to affront and I don't believe Jesus would take it as an affront since he knows my heart. John, I hope you might review the entire series and reconsider your comment; since you don't know my heart. I think by checking it all out and getting the big picture, you might reconsider your view?
Joe W.; thanks as always for your comments. I believe you and I agree about 99.9% of the time.
Thanks all for commenting thus far. If you enjoy this subject; Joe W. has a great series call "Misconceptions of Post-Modern Christianity". Please check it out. (Joe, I am behind but will try to get through the rest of it and drop you a line.).
Richard, one last idea. The thought of Jesus as philosopher or teacher is fine, but under scrutiny His teaching comes across as useless without the context that He is God and therefore able to make these statements with authority. The idea that we should forsake ourselves, that we should put others ahead of us and should actually pray for and accept hard times and persecution as good things goes directly against the human ideal. Not only that, as several who dropped away from Him exclaimed, this is hard teaching. Who can do these things? Because without the understanding that Jesus is God, there is nothing of value to learn. It becomes the ramblings of a madman who wandered the desert without food & water for too long. But if we accept that He is God - and I'm not talking about a statue or an idol but God - then everything else falls into place.
Aside from the fact that Jesus was and is apolitical (the Jews expected a military leader and most would not believe He was the Messiah because He wasn't), where do you get any teachings of Jesus EXCEPT in the Bible? And if those teachings are valid, how can you differentiate between what is valid and what is not? No sir, your words are full of contradictions and I pray that you will come to recognize this and turn fully to Jesus instaed of halfway.
"I hope before you took such a harsh judgement you review parts 1-3 of the series."
Sir, part 1-3 of the series bear the same title. There is nothing whatsoever harsh about my "judgement", it is a statement of my response to the title. If the title reflects the truth, I repeat; Would it not be far wiser to hope one's own understanding of what Jesus said was wrong? If the title does not reflect the truth, I suggest you not declare such a thing to all the world.
The title does reflect the truth; there are some things I wish Jesus did not say for the sake of those that do not accept these truths.
Having said that, the point of the articles are that he did say them; they are the truth and people need to accept them or risk the judgement they face if they do not.
Why on earth would I wish to read articles written by a man too foolish to comprehend that he is not wiser than Christ? I did read them, and found it an incredibly wasteful pursuit. You called my judgement harsh, and now impugn my integrity for speaking the truth. I assure you, I was being as gentle as a lamb when I first spoke.
I really don't care whether you question Christ's wisdom in what he said, or in saying it, that is a shell game you will surely not fool God with.
Normally I would allow such an interchange as this to play out between the two of you, but at the risk of making an enemy I must come to defense of my friend Donald and say that he is a very devoted Christian and to my knowledge has never done anything to stand against Jesus. Instead, I have always found his defense of the cross to be strong and brave at times as needed.
Who among us has never questioned God? According to Dr. Henry Blackaby in his series "Experiencing God," coming upon crises of faith and questioning God is not only OK, it is necessary for spiritual growth. I daresay that anyone who doesn't think they have ever questioned God are either in denial or in possession of the very same self-satisfied attitude is played by the Pharisees and shunned by Jesus.
I was raised in a religion where the people who claimed to represent God did not allow questions. They said their word was law and that I had no right to question the workings of God. God gave me a mind and the ability to reason - therefore my questions can't be accidental or without merit.
Christianity is based on a relationship with God through the savior, Christ Jesus. Relationships get advanced by answering each others questions - some aloud, some tacit. Either way, there are questions that are and must be asked. And God does not fear our questions - He welcomes them, because they allow us to draw ever nearer to Him.
The title to the series is titillating and based on your posts I think that is what really bothers you and not the actual content. I can't answer for Donald, but I assume it is intended to draw in unbelievers as well as believers. Because that is my purpose on Gather, and Donald's as well - to use this as an electronic mission. For those who are well or believe themselves to be so, a doctor is not needed. But Jesus Himself said He came not for the well but to heal the sick (paraphrased). That caught the attention of a Greek physician named Luke, who was amazed at the stories his friend Saul of Tarsus told Him. In turn, Luke used that to carry this message of healing to the world through his Gospel.
I pray that you will review your attitudes and your prejudice at Don's wording to see these articles for what they really are - commentaries of sadness for those who are lost and questioning, and a method to reach those who may otherwise be unreachable. And if you, as I do, have family and friends who died without knowing Christ you may wish that Jesus were wrong as well. We know that He isn't, but that doesn't change the fact that I wish my loved ones were in Heaven instead of hell.
Don,
I apologize if I stepped on your toes but hope that you see this as the move of brotherly moderation between two believers that it was intended to be.
You needn't fear making an enemy, I understand your motivation, and I believe I understand Donald's to some extent. However, it is not a "church" that Donald here questions, but the wisdom of God, as revealed in His Word. That a person does not feel good about some of what Christ said, is understandable, but certainly not something he did not speak to;
Think not that I am come to send peace to the earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set man at variance against his father, and the daughter against the mother, . . .
The "New Age" notion that the Book is a great "fixing" document, providing a recipe for generating a "paradise" on earth, is nowhere evident in it. The "story" does not have a "happy ending" in this regard, and I do not feel it is wise to deny it's ominous implications. Many WILL fall away from the truth. I seek to remind Donald that each and every statement of Jesus is rich with wisdom and aid in providing the understanding he seeks. But that requires accepting that it is indeed wisdom, so as to allow one's mind to delve deeper into the conflicts which arise in ourselves, when we do not yet grasp the greater understanding of God.
Even these words of christ have a significant degree of depth in them. Taken out of context people could probably twist it to produce the worst kind of interpretation possible. I remember attempting to explain these within the framework of the scriptures on an earlier occassion when i spotted this quote in a article. Below is a link to that article.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977154815
(Comment dated: Oct 23, 2007, 2:12am EDT)
I havent read many of the earlier comments here, so just in case you missed it earlier donnald, here's that link to that ibm issue.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977030292
If what God sought was simply for all to believe He exists, He could accomplish that at any moment, in a thousand ways. If all He sought was the belief that Christ was indeed one with Him, that would not strain His powers in the slightest.
He must, therefor, have something far more wondrous in mind. He must seek to make His children wise. Eternity is such a long time.
Thanks for trying to moderate Joe.
John; I beg to differ; not anywhere do I question the wisdom of God or his son Jesus Christ. I don't know how many ways to say I agree with the Bible and all that Christ said than how I have said it in my comments and particularly in my responses to your issues.
Hoping someone is wrong is not implying that they are wrong; actually my inference in my article and responses are that Christ is not wrong. Christ being the Truth; makes what he said true.
But the fact is there are many that do not agree that Christ is the Truth. Even many that claim to be Christians. I wish it were not true for the many lost and dying; so that they would not have to suffer his wrath. Thus I chose to do a series for these folks of why I hope Christ is wrong. I wish some of these saying of Christ were wrong for their sakes; but the sayings of Christ are not wrong.
If people that do not agree that Christ is true and infallible do happen to read these articles and discussions; maybe they will rethink their positions? I don't know.
Its obvious you cannot get pass the title; and although you may have read the article, you may not have read the discussions that followed and my responses. I only assume that because your context seems to be how evil the title of the articles are? If you were reading the entire context of the dialogues in these articles; I don't know if you would have the issues you are having? And if you have read all of this in context and still believe I am the lost soul you seem to think I am; maybe you should pray for me?
If I were doing what you state; my title would not be "Why I hope Jesus is Wrong" but Why I think Jesus may be Wrong" or "Why I am Glad Jesus is Wrong". Stating "Why I Hope Jesus is Wrong" and my presentation of the subject infers that he is in fact not wrong.
Part of the reason to some degree of this kind of an approach is a mandate I am trying to apply to some degree of Paul outlined in 1 Corinthian 9:
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
As for your comment "written by a man too foolish to comprehend that he is not wiser than Christ?" I am not foolish in that respect; I am reconciled to God only through Christ. But, I do hope that I am a fool for Christ. That is certainly my intention.
"John; I beg to differ; not anywhere do I question the wisdom of God or his son Jesus Christ"
"Why I Hope Jesus is Wrong"
One cannot both embrace his rightness, and hope he is wrong. I suggested from the first that is would be far wiser to hope one did not understand his words, and I will not concede that I erred in that suggestion. If you did not mean you hope he was wrong, you ought not have titled all your articles with those words. So I'll ask;
Do you hope Jesus is wrong?
Do you "wish Jesus did not say" some of the things he said?
If so, you are most certainly questioning the wisdom of God.
I rejoice that Christ spoke each and every word, appointed him by God. Had he not, we could not be saved. That was the deal. God is not sloppy.
Do I actually hope or wish Jesus is wrong. Wish may be a better word than hope. But from the standpoint of someone that does not believe Jesus is right; they better hope he is wrong. If I am in their shoes, I would hope he is wrong and I am right; if I don't believe and accept him. Me personally; no I don't literally hope he is wrong.
As a believing Christian however, I may say that I wish that he were wrong for the sake of all that are condemned to eternal punishment in hell. I don't see a problem with that. My wish or hope in these are moot; he is right and he is truth. I agree and am fully aware and some will not accept the truth. For that I am sad and do wish it were not so for them.
John; do you wish so many people were not going to hell because of their unbelief?
I apologize, but I don't believe for a second that rejoice in everything Christ said or asks of us. NO ONE wants to be persecuted - yet Christ said that we are blessed when we are for His sake. NO ONE wants to suffer - yet Paul reminded us that in our suffering and weakness the Strength and power of Jesus can best be displayed in us. NO ONE wants to have to give everything away in order to be freed.
And yet we do - we do these things because we have the power of Christ in us and are able to do so. Without that power we would be unable to do anything of righteousness. Even WITH that power we are hamstrung by our humanity - and yet we attempt to do so out of deference to the Lord. John said in Chapter 1 of his Gospel that we are NOTHING without God. NOTHING. That is a true statement, but tell me that you like that statement and rejoice in it. I have a very hard time believing that. My most recent article deals with the gospel of prosperity and the lies and half-truths taken out of context from the Bible that generate that. But the reason it is so successful and these preachers are raking in money hand over fist is simple - it's because we want to hear good things. As you noted, that is the trend of life today. But that doesn't mean that calling them out means that we wouldn't WISH that it were true - that God wants me to have a new Navigator or a position paying $500,000 to do something I live. It's not what's best for me so God is not giving it to me. But I don't rejoice over my wife driving a used van with mechanical problems because it's what we can afford. I am grateful that God has provided it and that we are not walking. I am grateful that we have just enough (and sometimes barely that) to meet our needs. But the point is that I accept these things as discipline from my Father.
Paul tells us that these things are for our own benefit. "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:11 Nowhere in this letter does Paul say we are to enjoy it. We do not enjoy discipline but endure it because it makes us stronger Christians. It teaches us to trust our Maker. It leaves us without choice at times when we MUST ask Him not for help but to do things for us that we are incapable of doing.
A young couple in my church recently had to bury their 9 month old child. Are they not qualified to as God "Why?" Would you not ask the same question? Not out of disrespect but out of genuine pain & hurting. God not only allows, He relishes our questions. He WANTS us to ask - as you noted, if He did not He would create robots. Instead we have Free Will. And our Free Will causes us to sin at least as often as it causes us to turn to God. It is just human nature. It is part of the test here on earth.
So I again question when you say you rejoice in EVERYTHING that Christ says. Because to me anyone who says that is ill, in denial or lying. I love my Lord with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind. But not every second of every minute of every day - because I'm human. And when I fall away I sin. There's not one human on this earth who doesn't sin multiple times every single day. There's only been One who didn't - and He died because we do. I am grateful, I do my best and thankfully have the covering of Grace for my sin. But that doesn't mean I rejoice in it. And I know NO ONE who does. But I trust God - and because I trust Him I know that all is for the best (Rom 8:28).
Please think carefully;
"I agree and am fully aware and some will not accept the truth"
That truth is not YOUR truth. That truth is God's truth. What you speak of reflects your eagerness to "gather sheep" alright, but He wishes them to be gathered to His truth, ONLY. He could have easily provided a Book filled with nothing but enticing words, He could have directed a history that would make believing in Him just like eating candy. He could have directed Jesus to go on performing ever greater miracles till the whole of mankind bowed before him, and embraced his doctrine and authority.
BUT HE DID NOT.
The gate is narrow for a reason, He does not need you to widen it.
You are wrong, I do rejoice. For I trust God to be absolutely perfect in His selection of worthy children. He will not choose to many, and He will not choose too few. All that is worthy of being, shall be. The rest does not belong. How could I not rejoice at the world He so carefully prepares for me? How could I be ungrateful that He will remove that which is evil or corrupt? Why would I grieve for that which God sees as harmful? Have you not faith?
I personally don't believe more than a scattering of all His children will perish, but then, I read His words carefully, and don't pay much heed to silly wives-tales and scary speculations. He will dry every tear. Every tear!
I will always return to my taker
I will never be a faker
I will never be a forsaker. . ."
- KMFDM
And what are you doing about these people? What are you doing about Christ mandate to "go out and preach the gospel to all nations"? You sound too caught up in what I guess is a Calvinist belief that all this is determined and there is no use in trying to save the lost? I may be judging you as harshly by your words and devices as you are me?
As to the literary device and even your point of questioning God; did not Jesus himself in the Garden have a question for God in Matthew 26:
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
My device is not the same; but your lack of any willingness to accept that we should have any questions of God concerning our faith and his will seems to make you superior to Jesus?
And regarding your comment "That truth is not YOUR truth. That truth is God's truth. " Again, how am I disagreeing when I say "Jesus if the Truth." Jesus said; "I am the way, the truth and the life". This to me is a more powerful statement of belief and where I stand in Christ than your statement.
Back to the articles that offend you so; I may leave a disclaimer in Part V for the benefit of those who are confused as you are to my purpose of trying to get non-Christians to view this and wondering; but what if Jesus really is Truth as he said he is? What if I am wrong?
This is obviously going nowhere. As Jesus said, "Those who have ears let them hear." You have deafened your ears to any alternative than our own view. Job questioned God and it was OK because he did it honestly. Jonah questioned God and it was still OK to question even though he sinned afterward. The point is, they both questioned God. Moses, David, Thomas and others paid consequences for their actions regarding questions, but not for the questions themselves - for their sinful actions regarding the questions. The Bible is full of these examples. I'm not sure if you glossed over them or skipped them entirely. Doesn't matter. Do I wish people were not going to hell? You betcha. Do I accept that they are because that is the Word of the Lord? Definitely? Do I like it? No, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that it is because God said it is. When the rich man cried out to Abraham from hell, did Abraham not feel pity from his place in Heaven? (Luke 16) But did it change? They accepted God's will. It is what it is. I wish you well in your world. I will continue to praise Jesus to the highest level of my abilities, but I'm not going to try to fool myself into believing that this imperfect world is perfect or that life is without pain. In my opinion, that is the self-same lie as the prosperity gospel and it destroys Christians rather than building them up. Because Christianity without facing the realities of everyday life is a just another fantasy world. Take care and may God bless your path.
I have in no way admonished anyone for questioning God. It is fine to question God, as is clear from the many accounts of such in the Book.
So, go question God.
What is truth? (don't answer this with "GOD" or "Jesus")
Michael - Pontius Pilate asked the same question of Jesus and like you, did not want to hear that he was the answer. In Pilate's instance he washed his hands of this. Did that absolve his guilt in his part in this drama?
If you disagree that Jesus is the answer, the Truth; I am sorry to hear it. Or for your sake I hope Jesus is wrong.
Your comments are too limited for me to go further; since you don't want to hear that Jesus is truth and have not shared what your opinion is on what truth is.
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." - Matt. 7:7-8
Michael - Pontius Pilate asked the same question of Jesus and like you, did not want to hear that he was the answer. In Pilate's instance he washed his hands of this. Did that absolve his guilt in his part in this drama?
Pontius Pilate asked a very important question--you cannot say that Jesus is truth and truth is Jesus without telling people what "truth" is. Jesus defined in terms of "truth" and "truth" defined in terms of Jesus is a perfect circle of nonsense. Truth does not depend on this person you call "Jesus" unless you are willing to make the claim that every human was a liar before Jesus was born into the world--like saying that truth didn't exist before Jesus (unless you count the people prophesying his future existence "untruthful"--a veritable contradiction).
Jesus himself did not say that he was the "truth" in that instance while talking to Pilate; he said that "everyone on the side of truth listens to me," which implies that everyone who sees the truth for what it is, understands that Jesus is speaking the truth. Which means that Jesus is speaking concerning a case of things in existence, and that is speech happens to match the realities of that worldly existence. So Jesus is not speaking "Jesus" here...(which would be the weird result of your verbal equation of Jesus = Truth) but "truth" which seems independent of the fact that Jesus is speaking it. If Jesus was "truth" there would be no need for vacuous speech to assert the I=I. Pilate, in asking this question, hits the nail on the head, which leads to the Socratic..
"Is Jesus truthful because he is the son-of-God, or is Jesus the son-of-God because he is truthful?"
If you disagree that Jesus is the answer, the Truth; I am sorry to hear it. Or for your sake I hope Jesus is wrong.
Jesus is not the answer to truth, because he already implies that the "people on the side of truth agree with [him]" which means that people have found truth prior to finding Jesus. Jesus is not wrong--you are wrong.
Your comments are too limited for me to go further; since you don't want to hear that Jesus is truth and have not shared what your opinion is on what truth is.
As well they have been, to draw you into this discussion of "truth" and Jesus.
Jesus has always existed - before anything or anyone was created and long before He took earthly form, He has always been. God has no beginning or end - it is beyond that limitation. So what you say does not apply because Jesus has always been. Therefore, as an entity that has always existed outside the constraints of time He can and indeed is truth. I could offer Biblical quotes that support my position, but you have already stated that your mind is closed to that possibility. You view the Bible as the crutch of a small number of people; I view it as the source for all assumptions Christians make. Just as the nucleus is to the cell, the Bible is to Christian life. If you were open to the possibility we could discuss it - as such you are a victim of the self-destruction that William Paley pointed out as the ultimate block to learning and growth:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Paley
" . . . if you expect an answer and listen closely for that small still voice that God uses, you will get one. If you ask expecting to get the "hollow echo of the question, that is exactly what you get"
I tell you the truth; If you ask of God in all sincerity, you will get what God wishes you to get. Expectation's got nothing to do with it.
Nothing existed before Jesus. But there is no before Jesus because Jesus has always been. We are so stuck on the carnal; the earthly. The fact that God has always been and the Godhead includes the Father, the Son(Jesus) and the Holy Spirit is above any of our complete comprehension.
"Jesus himself did not say that he was the "truth" in that instance while talking to Pilate;"
Not in that instance but Jesus did say he was "the way, the truth and the life" in John 14.6.
It seems your issue with this is the use of the logical argument of "Christ is truth; therefore truth is Christ." I believe the argument is true. Many do not and reject Christ.
As for this instance with Pilate; Pilate like many of us was not really interested in truth; he was interested in the exigencies of the day. That is most of our reality, most of the time; truth has nothing to do with it. Later on once we have met the demands of the day; our conscience may strike us and the Holy Spirit may convict us to seek the truth and live above the tumult; the tyranny of the urgent that is our reality most of the time.
Really?
In all honesty, do we just come to Christ and God out of the goodness and love of our heart?
Or do we have an expectation for something more that what we know, understand?
Would we bother with God if there was not some expectation of an answer?
Some expectation that he can fix it?
I think we're saying the same thing in different words. As you pointed out, the key is sincerity. If I ask God with sincerity I expect Him to respond. He has promised He will and my own experience validates this. In Michael's view, he stated that he does not believe God will answer. That appears to be based in his disbelief in God, period. So if one doesn't believe, how can one ask of God sincerely?
"In all honesty, do we just come to Christ and God out of the goodness and love of our heart?"
In all honesty, I have no idea what "we" do. I approach in all honesty.
"That appears to be based in his [Michael's] disbelief in God, period."
I see no expression of his disbelief in God. I see him express disbelief in some other's concepts of and regarding God. Perhaps God is not a concept to Michael. Surely He is not to me. My concepts are as vapor.
How about humility?
Of course if you are as your concepts or God is as your concepts; it will not matter?
Although I did not know of vapor to be so dense?
I have no idea what you said, but apparently we see this differently. Michael's statements seem antagonistic toward the Bible and Jesus. I am surprised that you would defend someone who seems to be totally against Biblical teaching, but that's between you & God, not you & me.
"How about humility?"
It is not I who imagines himself worthy to question the wisdom of Christ.
Nor taunts with "clever" confidence.
Your use of the word 'seems' indicates to me that you do indeed have some idea of what I said.
Peppering one's comments with quotes from the Book is not "Biblical teaching". It is peppering one's comments with quotes from the Book.
Despite my repeated attempts to explain and codify my intent we still are unable to effectively communicate. Your repeated and unfounded attacks have drawn me in for much longer than I should have remained. Unfortunately in giving into the temptation of arguing with you I may have allowed you to give others more ammunition against Christianity, but I tire of satan's laughter. and will please him no more. I will ignore you from this point forth rather than banter like a pagan. I do not do so with anger but with remorse and resignation that I was unfit for service to God in this situation. I pray that God will touch your heart and open your eyes to the truth you claim to defend.
Well at least we have that in common.