Mob Mentality or Common Sense

what wealth
he will make me poorer than i am now

I believe he was talking about taxes, and that people who have been getting tax breaks under the Bush Administration while the deficit grows, will have to contribute more in taxes to pay the governments bills. But, it is hard to say exactly, because he didn't say it publicly. (although I hear him "quoted" in the McCain sound bites.)
If the Republican administration hadn't grown our government at record rates and spent money on several wars at record rates while reducing taxes, we wouldn't have to face increased taxes and reduced services in the future - no matter which side wins in Nov..

The whole spread the wealth thing does remind me of Socialism. What would be the point of working harder to achieve your dream when either they are going to take the rewards away and give it to someone else or you are going to reap the rewards or others, so why bother striving?

That was a really long sentence, but I hope you got my point. I don't want to work harder, just so someone else can mail it in, as they say.

I try to stay out of the political forums, but I do have to agree with you, it is our money, whether it is a little or a lot, it should be ours to do with what we want. And it should be our choice to "spread the wealth".

This post is based on misconception. We already have a tax code which "shares" the wealth. I believe Obama's idea is that one in twenty American's would be paying more taxes, just as they did before the Bush tax cuts, and this would facilitate a better overall long term economy as people who are one of those 19 of 20 would have more opportunities to prosper which feeds the economic machine that benefits us all.

Consider the Bush tax cuts, which have given nearly a trillion dollars to the top 1% (let alone the top 5%) while millions of Americans have dropped below the poverty level, which lessens their opportunities to prosper and contribute to the overall economy. And those tax cuts were passed after we were in deficit, so that was borrowed money that someone who is now poor and becomes wealthy (via the American dream) will have to pay back in interest (beyond his proportion from when he was poor). And as far as those tax cuts driving the economy... There isn't one single Bush economic adviser who will say that the cuts have paid for themselves.

The "redistribution of wealth" dialogue is a propaganda talking point. It's basically a matter of restoring the tax code to roughly what it was when we were in budget surplus, before Bush.

Carol, all the fuss is about letting Bush's tax relief to the wealthy go back to the original amount they were paying before Bush got the Republican majority in congress to O.K. it. It would not be new taxes nor is he advocating it for those who make less than $250,000 a year.

So it is not a new tax just allowing Bush's tax cut to the wealthy return to pre-Bush levels. If you really read his proposals rather than the propaganda of the attack machine you might find out the real truth.

Also did you know that Republican senators wanted to create a national tax of 23% on everything even though they said that it would abolish the IRS in the long run that tax they were proposing would have been more than we pay right now to the IRS and for those of us on a fixed income it would have been taxes we do not pay now and on a fixed income a tax such as that would wipe out me either eating or buying my meds. They also want to get rid of S.S. which if you are not able to put back money which those of us who were such as cop/EMT/firemen etc. on the salaries we made with a family no way would I have been able to put money away in stock etc.

They also want to privatize S.S. which means those same men who ran the market into the hole it is in now would have had they hands on the money and it also would have gone down the drain. So much for Republicans wanting to help those of us who worked our lives in public service.

So do not tell me about taxation I read and watch my senators to see who votes how on bills that will affect me and my state senators who just happen to be Republican voted against the Medicare bill that senator Kennedy came in to vote yes for that would pay my doctor so I could continue to see him without having to pay through the nose. Oh, and Medicare payments come out of my S.S. check each month so it is not free to those of us who have to be on it.

:O\

James, I wasn't trying to tell anyone about anything, this is why I don't get into political debates. I know just enough to get me into trouble. :)

I guess the American dream will be to only get rich up to 250,000 then after that it is not good anymore. Just strive to be so so. I may be wrong, but I do believe everyone's taxes will go up if either one of these guys wins....just more so with Obama. Who keep campaign promises after being elected? The Fair Tax would be the fairest way to go.

I'm not blaming you nor fussing at you Carol. I just get frustrated that so many false claims are out there that make so many think the wrong way about what is happening. All it takes is to search and watch what is happening to find out not by reading some of the emails that are being circulated which are based on falsehoods or half truths.

Those people do not care about us all they want is to cause misinformation to be continued to be circulated...I've read both parties health care plans and McCain's does not help the people but in the long run puts more taxes on the same benefits that he supposedly is helping. Where Obama's is not perfect but it does help. I'm an Independent neither Republican nor Democrat. I do not care about parties only those who will help us not harm us with their policies.

:O\

Paula the Fair Tax you are talking about is the one I mentioned in the first comment I made. It would put a 23% tax on everything you buy. I live on S.S. and that would leave me as well as any other person who has to exist on S.S. or other fixed income with less ability to buy food and other necessities. We already can't buy any extras. I know because I have had to ask my church for help the last few months to continue to eat or I would starve on what I get.

:O|

The tax code says you pay income tax based on personal income so why are all the loopholes built in for corporate cons? Cronyism is as dark as fascism and should be wiped out before is can spread into the disease it has become. How much do you intend to give away before you open your eyes to reality? You do not have much more to lose before you hit bottom, one more bailout should do it.

Oh and the Fair Tax would be on top of what state taxes you pay now, so if you pay 3%$ or more that would be added to the Fair Tax so it would be 26% or what every you pay in state taxes on food etc.

Just a note...

:O\

here's a link to an article containing what Obama and Joe really said so you don't spread anymore misconceptions about it:
Joe the Plumber don't need no stinking license, Down with regulation!

Richard, "Joe the Plumber" is not a plumber nor does he make $250,000 a year nor does it look like he is going to buy his boss's business since he could not run it without being a licensed plumber in the state of Ohio. So his questions were false to begin with since neither did he own the business nor was he a plumber.

:O\

It's socialism...but I guess we'll see what happens in a couple of weeks.

No way! People work hard for their money and it should be given away to others. I have heard this share the wealth nonsense before and I totally disagree with it.I believe the poor should be helped to help themselves by education but not by taking money away from someone else.

I always laugh when I hear middle income and not wealthy people defend their conservative agenda that has not been conservative but wasted and stolen billions of dollars for our country.
First of all, once you apy your taxes, it is not your money anymore, it is our money in the sense that should be used for the betterment and advancement of the country on all front so we can all benefit.How?
Schools, health insurance preventive, infrastructures, roads and transportations, incentive to business, etc etc....
But what government does , gets a big chunk and gives to the military complex, another chunk gives away to other nations, more chunks to special interest pursuits who do not benefit us directly and so on and on...

So when you argue about spreading the wealth in the nation's interest and overlook all the billions spent against your interest, you have just shot your argument out in the space....good luck

Silly post. Wealth distribution is a defacto, natural political gravity, inescapable. The proof of that is the economic debacle seizing the world due to disproportionate wealth garnered in fewer and fewer hands, thereby restricting the buying power of the vast majority. The current solution is a trillion dollar "wealth distribution" plan brought to us by the morons who got us into this mess. What do you think the "bailouts" are if not "wealth distribution??" If the nation would have retained sanity in the tax code and regulation of the finance and oil market we would ALL be on a steady, even rise of growth. We are living the results of "wealth distribution" to the top 5% of the nation.

Sam,
Silly you! If you want wealth distributed more, give them your money.

I woud rather give money to the people that need it than to bail out Wall Street and the milliion dollar executives that drove these businesses into the ground. I'm tired of paying for tax breaks for businesses and giving the wealthy a better life. It's time for those of us that don't live high on the hog to reap some benefits so we can have money to buy stuff and help this economy come around.

I think everyone across the board should pay an equal share of taxes (everyone pays x percent of their income). I do not believe the wealthy should be taxed more than their fair share and have their money put into government programs like welfare that pays for people who have never had a job in their life.

I know not everyone who has to be on welfare fits into that category (some people are genuinely disabled) but the Welfare Mommies who pop out a baby every other year to stay on my tax dollars I don't think deserve any break.

I have seen people cash their welfare checks at our store, get five dollars in gas and probably go spend the rest on Oxy's and Xanax. Why do I think this way? I spent a six month term on grand jury and saw what a real problem my town has with pills. Nearly all the offenders were lower SES.

I don't think it is fair to take the money wealthy people have worked for (regardless if it is inherited wealth, earned wealth or whatever) and distribute it to the lower half of society.

Don't they call that Communism ? ? ?

oh yeah, the Kings of Old Time Europe did that too...............like the one's we fled from in the 1600's..........

Amen, Randee.

Not going to argue...just going to make a statement and go to the next post. Obama has my vote. He is more trustable than McCain by far. After the last 8 years of economic disaster we have had under Bush's failures if we have to deal with 4 more years of the same stuff this country is going to eventually go bankrupt.

As far as "sharing the wealth", a person donating to a charity or a worthy cause that should be up to them. The same with helping those who either refuse to work (or support themselves) or put themselves (through action or inaction) in a position where they have to rely on others for their support (including marriage).

Anyone who thinks either candidate is going to cut our taxes is deluding themself. The budget deficit before the bailouts was 9.8 trillion dollars, add another trillion (after the pork and administration of the bailout money), well we won't be seeing a reduction in taxes. They *may* cut our direct taxes (like the income tax) but other taxes will increase or new ones will be added. And the population will happily skip along through life thinking all is well.

Should a government tax the working populace to spend on those who won't/can't work, to fund their pork projects and hand out corporate welfare incentives like candy on Halloween? Not in my opinion.

Though I do think it's interesting that when we were little we hailed Robin Hood as a hero, but when Robin comes knocking on our doors (in the form of government) we complain.

You can't cut taxes for people that don't pay them, roughly 40% of the country. It's tax the rich more, and give tax credits to the 40%... spreading it around, and hope for the middle-class vote. That's how it got the nick-name Robin Hood economics... (short version) Socialistic or not? Class warfare? Hmmmm... whatever, probably a tax filing nightmare later LOL.
Frankly, I don't believe politician's tax plan promises for votes, and then there is this thing called Congress to deal with as well. I kind of think no matter who wins, the economic unknowns in coming months/years and being able to blame Bush will be the excuse and battle cry to get re-elected saying they will do them this second time around... promise.
Guess I'm in a cynical mood.... ;-) Take care.

I do not make 250 thousand dollars a year either but definately don't want government to take from anybody. Not in my name. The government does not run anything well and to reward these idiots for screwing up everything in our lives over the past 2 years by giving them even more money and power over our lives is the epitome of ignorance.

I get disgusted at those who think they have a right to the rich's money. Those people have and keep that money by their own merits. Perhaps it was "luck" but that luck that got them rich was because they took chances, worked hard or thought ahead. Some people are born into the money but they KEEP that money with hard work, smart sense and quite often more work than the average person is willing to put into it.

If it's they're money, they should make the choices how and if to help others.

Yes I do!
Everybody pays taxes, the rich seem to wiggle out of doing so with the help of their powerful friends, the tax scale should be sliding. Inotherwords, if you make a lot (over $250,000 a year) you should pay a higher percentage than say myself, who doesn't make $10,000 a year as all I have is a Disability cheque. It is not Socialism. It is the Robin Hood Principal!

I don't think we can afford 4 more years of Bush-style tax cuts under McCain considering the direction our economy is taking. It's time to stop the blame game about how we got here and time to try to fix what's clearly broken. Since McCain seems to think the way to fix what's broken is to keep doing what we're doing (but moreso), I will be voting for Obama. McCain's economic policies being only one of the many reasons I cannot vote for him.

I love it!

You know it is important to keep in mind that candidates can promise any damn thing and McCain or Obama's "tax plan" is not worth the paper written on. A Pres, any Pres, submits legislation to a Congress who then rewrites it, sends it back and the exec rewrites that and eventually something will get passed. The Congress itself my reconcile the agendas and ideology between themselves AND the seperate houses. McCain or Obama can promise ANYTHING, it don't matter a whit and will not resemble what eventuallly becomes law.

Several people mentioned the so-called "Fair Tax" I started a discussion a few days ago, asking if anybody knew something about it, and I got several interesting responses. Also some people mentioned the "flat" tax idea. I invite you all to take a look at that thread and comment, if you care to.

Due to recent circumstances beyond my control I am one of the poor with a work injury and no income. I can speak from experience here, I have never been wealthy, so this would only benefit me if this was passed, but we signals are we sending to our children, just sit back and you will be taken care of? Not my kids.

I am a strong believer in earning what you have, not expecting others to do for you or give it to you because the govt said they had to.

Yes, it is socialism, which is communism. which is also the Robin Hood principle.

You know, I watched in the debate the other night when Obama said that we as a nation had a surplus coming off of Clinton's administration and then President Bush gave us all a refund check and now we have a deficit. Well, guess what, Barry?

1. That was our money to begin with, so he did a good thing by giving us back some of OUR money.

2. No way could he have know that 9/11 was going to happen. I know, I know - people are going to say that he should have known. Well, if he should have known, then so should have Clinton. I don't buy that argument.

3. We didn't know we would be going to war

4. We didn't know that we would have as many natural disasters as we have had.

5. The Republican party did not create the banking mess - the Democratic party (the socialits) did - going all the way back to the 1970's.

In short, President Bush did not own a crystal ball that would foretell the future. And neither does Obama, and neither do any of you.

Andrea I have to give you an award for the most ignorant comment on this thread. Socialism isnt communist and paying your fair share of taxes isnt either.

What a good sheeple some people are.

Why aren't you yelling about AIG and the rest of the stupid Wall Street Bailout.

Everyone works hard or is born fortunate. What a crock.

Carol - all those rich corporate scam artists laught at all of you while they use you.

Andrea - Go to the library and read about the differences between socialism and communism. Then look at Sweden, Denmark, France. Yeah those people got it really bad.

Great comment Andrea L. Thank you for the hope.

Lou Rountree
SHAZAM !

I would rather see my taxes going to help Americans than where our money is going now.

Of course none of us like being taxed. [Personally I much more hate the yearly self-disclosure job, and would prefer to just be billed, but I digress.] On the other hand, most of us like to have the use of public works, public infrastructure, governmental agencies, and military might. Presumably these could be paid for by means other than taxation, but if taxation is the method we have agreed to use, taxes there will be. The rich obviously get a greater return on their tax investment than those who lack the resources to make much use of anything. They are also in a better position to pay more, even if only for a short career burst of time. Yes, saving and investment need to be better encouraged. Those who are wealthy have the option of paying for top advice and making good investment decisions. The encouragement needs to go to the barely making it, so they will gain the advantages of growing their resources and have more of a stake in the game. In terms of economic growth, we have become a consumer economy. That means that the more dollars going to the margins means more people have the means to be consumers, means more products will be consumed, greater economic advantages for all.

In terms of percentage of income, we are overtaxing the poor. There are many taxes other than "income tax." The wealthy get to pay for lawyers and accountants so they can minimize their taxes. The poor get hit everywhere they look. Yet, it is more fair and useful to tax the wealthy. They are the ones that are getting most benefit from the structure provided by that tax income. A great many of the wealthy get there through inheritance, or at least growing up with the advantages of wealth to give them a leg very far up the ladder. Do you have any idea the discipline and effort it takes to be of the working poor, having to take on several jobs none of which give benefits, all of which pay poorly to do the most obnoxious work that no one wants to do? People struggling, and not even making it, living on the streets or in substandard housing, eating from dwindling food pantries or dumpsters or unhealthy fast and cheap foods, freezing for lack of funds to pay for heat, you get the idea, these people are not really benefiting from the great wealth of this nation. I believe the income tax was created for the Civil War, and subsequently brought back to pay for other wars, then for other programs, and so forth. It was not about thieving. It was because people wanted the programs and Congress wanted their votes. In any case, this is the system we are now living with. Fine, do away with all taxes altogether. Then we can look at other ways to do what we all need and want done as society. Probably we could find much better, more efficient methods. The resources that morally belong to all of us, and even more to the Earth itself, are being stripped, wasted, destroyed for a quick profit. That should be paid back. I don't want profiteers exploiting our resources. Economics needs to include the costs to the Earth, the general resources of those living here, the ability of laborers to maintain a healthy life, the ability of those coming up to get useful and comprehensive educations that they have the skills to do well, etc., and so forth. Maybe we could tax the resources directly, or license their use, for enough money to do away with taxes. There could be waives for use which is shown to be for the general good. People could use for profitable enterprise resources that they have helped to produce, or buy or license their use for fair value.

Why not a flat tax? Why is that not being passsed? I think that would be the fairest tax, and the wealthy would pay more, but that's their choice.

Do understand the whole thing. seem like the little people are the ones who are paying all the bills (taxes). American Axle CEO around a big bouns when they settled the contact. If they have the money to pay him a huge bonus, how can they be bankrupted. (sp).

Carol the reason why the flat tax is unpopular is BECAUSE the rich people would have to pay their share of taxes.

I agree totally with you Carol!
That is why the Democrats have the highest unemployment rate out there, but refuse to look at the facts.
We need to promote jobs, not run them away. Feed the small business, and quit throwing pork in for the big businesses, like the Bailout did for the big three car companies that the Democrats put in. Quit the bailouts, and the handouts, and quit "Spreading the Wealth"!!!!!
Those that earn it, should have it, not those that do not earn it. Why spread it, it is not fertalizer, it will not make anything grow.

McCain calling Obama's Tax plan Socialism is a real laugh. Republicans have shown an absolute genius convincing middle class people that they are rich and thus part of George Bush's America. I've got news for you, you were never a part of George Bush's America. This is not sharing the wealth. It is sharing the BURDEN fairly for a change. Isn't it funny that a man who owns 7 houses calls a tax break for people making less than $250,000 a year welfare. Think about that $250,000 - Give us a break John McCain! You are full of crap and America will not be fooled by it this time.

Well actually it is like fertalizer, just that it makes deficits grow and not the Economy.

You spread the wealth by using to create more jobs silly, and by helping small business the backbone of this country.Get off the rich, poor thing, the rich never pay taxes, they send it offshore or buy a business and use losses to offset their revenues.
Fact is the top 10% of the population owns 90% of the wealth and has done so since 1916. All connected to the banks, they get fiat money for a penny for a dollar and loan to you at 7% to 30% and they create money out of nothing.

Over on the other thread I started, somebody very eloquently made the case against the flat tax. In fact, the rich paying 10% of their total income still leaves them with a huge disposable income, but the poor paying 10% are reduced to subsistence level. The flat tax looks "fair" superficially, but in reality its anti-progressiveness is shocking.

It all comes down to your basic philosophy: either you believe that the rich benefit more from the system and should therefore bear more obligation to support the system's infrastructure, or you believe that progressive taxation is an unfair burden on the rich.

Whatever your personal philosophy, it seems to me that we have to find the "sweet spot" in the three-way trade-off off between fairness, simplicity, and allowing the government some policy options to deal with changing circumstances. Like them or not, tax credits, shelters, etc, do allow Congress to influence the direction of public policy. That's one aspect of the current tax mess that we as individuals tend to forget about, as we see only the "little picture" of how taxes impinge on our own lives.

I'm voting for Obama'08. It's in my best interest, and that of my children and grandchildren.

Obama is best equipped to make decisions most helpful to our country, as a whole.

If they take anymore money from the middle class, we will be the ones who will need someone to share their wealth with us.... I dont want to take anything from anyone that doesnt belong to me or that we didnt work for.... there are people who could do more to help themselves than they do..

vickey the middle class is the only people that pay their fair share...the rich on the other hand do NOT.

No one is talking about taking something from the rich to line the pockets of others but rather taking their fair share from them.

Isnt it about time the middle class stopped lining the pocket of the wealthy?

I wish the election was over,

No long diatribe here. I'll just say it: Obama can kiss my white ass. (or anyone else who wants to tell me how I have to share my money).

No way in God's green acre am I voting for someone who is going to make me give my money to somebody who doesn't want to work for it. That's what we have now; people who want welfare, who have one baby after another so they can rip off Social Security, get divorces so they can get more from Social Security. I'm not going to vote for somebody who is going to perpetuate that crap going on.

Getting back to Andrea L.

No the tax cuts weren't about giving the surplus back to the people whose money it was. They were promoted that way, but when the tax cuts were passed Bush and the Republican Congress had spent our surplus into deficit, so the money given back to the (mostly) ultra-wealthy was borrowed money that we all have to pay the interest on (about $65 billion). The Republican Congress went to to send Bush five and a half years of spending bills and Bush signed every single one, doubling our national debt at nine trillion. The Bush administration with the Republican Congress presided over the largest increase in discretionary spending since LBJ's Great Society in the 60's --- So if you are going to hang the Socalist tag on anyone, it should be the Republicans.

The question is, the country is in real trouble. Cutting taxes increased the deficit, which is just another tax increase that Republicans are not admitting to.

Someone needs to make the point that the deficit is destroying this country.

We have been hoodwinked into thinking that the Republicans and big
business knows what is right for America, and all they have really done
is put us in a situation where we are almost mortally ill.

In terms of who is going to pay this deficit off ... the people who can
afford it. Read my article about Joe The Plumber to find out how much
taxes this guy would be stuck with if he actually were going to make as
much as he said.

If he made 280K, Obama's plan makes him pay $900 more ... less than
1% ... less than leaving a penny in the change dish when you get your
change.

The people who are influenced by these Republican lies are people who
are not even capable of understanding the reality of taxes and what they
mean, they are being lied to and taken advantage of by the Republicans.

It's not about socialism, it's about making people pay their share. The income gap has increased to the point there's hardly any middle class because we've been distributing the wealth upwards in a vain attempt to have it trickle down. It hasn't. It wont. Why isn't it class warfare or socialism to give the middle class's money to the rich?

Good point Wilma. Literally millions of Americans have fallen below the poverty line since the Bush tax cuts were enacted. Many millions more above the poverty line, and a large portion of the middle class have become poorer, all while the government helped the top few percentage of wealthiest Americans become hundreds of billions of dollars wealthier through the tax cuts. Would someone who is using the terms "socialist" and "redistribution of wealth" regarding Obama tell how this is any different?

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Interesting article and debate. I personally think that whether you are rich or poor you should be able to decide how your money is spent. I also think they should allow us to designate what we would like our taxes spent on individually. That way people wouldn't bitch as much about having to pay them. If I knew my taxes were going towards better the education systems, cleaning up parks and national recreation areas, and helping battered women I would be happier than knowing my money is being wasted or giving someone too lazy to work a free ride. NO I AM NOT PREJUDICED against the welfare system it helped me very much when I needed it and think it is a good thing when used TEMPORARY basis as it was meant to be done but SO VERY MANY people are abusing it I no longer think it is a good thing and some serious reforms need done. I would designate my taxes toward fixing it, ortoward implementing a mandatory random drug screening for people recieving benefits. SOrry!! LOL Back down off my soap box now!

Well, taxes pay for roads and bridges and police and libraries and parks and the military etc etc. I don't think I would like to live without those things. Large corporations have been supplying employment and have taken it elsewhere and employed people in other countries at a subsistence rate of pay while getting around environmental regulations that they would have to comply with in this country. They also take your hard earned tax dollars as government incentives to business.
You can be a hard worker and lose your job and have no health insurance or way to pay your mortgage. You can also have given 30 years of service to some corporate entity and be left old and with no pension or anything. I guess these hard working people don't deserve any help because they did not work hard enough? The corporate genius has millions of dollars and laughs all the way to the bank cashing his golden parachute check.

I certainly wish we had better schools. Some people don't even know that we live in a Republic or how the government is supposed to work.
Income tax as it was first developed taxed "income" and not wages. Does anyone know what "income" is???? It is not wages.

Obama has a half brother living in Africa in poverty why is he not sharing his wealth with him since he wants others to share the wealth

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