Recipe Flagged

probably the same knucklehead that caused the trouble today with William.

There are always people everywhere that have to find fault in EVERYTHING and are super sensitive.
I think these fools should just dry up and go away.
This is a stinkin ONLINE website....what difference does it make to them.

I loved your recipe and could care less where it came from just as long as it is good.

To the losers that tattled on you......GO AWAY !!

Thank you Tracey.

I had the same problem. I've removed all of my recipes from here and won't be posting any more.

It's unfortunate we can't share things we received from others, but if that's the way Gather wants it, I guess they'll have to see how many people stick around their little "community." :x

That's ridiculous. Recipes are not copyright-able. That's why churches and schools can publish recipe books. The only thing you have to worry about is whether your recipe is trademarked and that only applies to brand name products (ie: you might get in trouble for posting the recipe for Coca-Cola. If you knew it.)

(this is not about your recipe Kathleen, which I didn't see)

Laura, that's not entirely true. While the list of ingredients and method of preparing is not copyrightable, the descriptive text absolutely is. This means that if you type up the ingredient list for a recipe and then write up how to prepare it IN YOUR OWN WORDS it is legal. (there is a kerfluffle amongst the molecular gastronomy crowd about ownership of ideas for dishes but that's a whole other thing)

Were you to, for example, find a web site you liked like Epicurious or Whole Foods or the Food Network and start copy/pasting entire recipes without attribution or changing anything, that would be copyright infringement. Clear and blatant infringement. If you added "a pinch of salt" to the end of each one, as Karen suggests, I believe it would still be infringement. Just infringement wth a dollop of silly thrown in.

Kevin Weeks wrote a nice article about recipe and copyright a while back. Might be worth a read if you are unsure about how this works.

~km

I'm sorry I missed your recipe. It sounds delicious. As a lawyer, I also think the term copyright is way overused and misunderstood. People are allowed to use and reproduce copyrighted items for personal use in many situations. It doesn't sound like you were turning a profit here! Similarly, you can't just stick a copyright symbol on something and have it be copyrighted -- which is what many people try to do on the web.

Anyway, sorry to hear this is such a drag.

"you can't just stick a copyright symbol on something and have it be copyrighted"

If it is your original content, you don't even need to do this. It is always owned by you. Having a registered copyright makes it easier to claim damages when it is infringed.

If it not your original content, you can't claim a thing by putting a copyright notice on it.

I don't know why this is so complicated. Did you write it or otherwise modify it to fit with copyright law? If not, then don't post it. See? Simple stuff.

(Kathleen, sorry for threadjacking, want me to stop?)

kitchenMage is right. From the U.S. Copright Office:
Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds or prescriptions are not subject to copyright protection. However, where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.
So, don't go re-publishing someone elses cookbook...even if you change the title, don't take their pretty description of the dish, or their folksy remembrances of eating the dish as a child. Those are copyrightable. But the list of ingredients, even completely unchanged, is definitely not copyrightable. Unfortunately the directions for mixing the ingredients in a certain order and at certain times/temperatures is a gray area.

Bottom line is, whoever flagged you was a bitter, wretched individual with too much time on their hands.

Thanks for the citation Ken.

DW, do you work for money?
Has anyone stolen your work and gotten credit/paid for it?
Do you mind if this happens?

I do, I have, and I do. If you don't that is your choice. Just as it my choice is to care about such laws. Why the hostility? Oh right, that's what you do. Carry on.

I just didn't understand ... as I said I normally give credit to the site or person if there is such ... in this case a friend sent it to me ... the friend isn't a gather member (that I know of) I do not know where my friend got the recipe so I guess thats where I fell short ... when I receive a recipe from a friend that I feel is worth sharing how should I go about it??? I mean I have know I have no idea where they get it from????? I am so confused and hurt/disappointed.

Look, no one was stealing anything here... she posted a RECIPE. It's not War and Peace, for pete's sake! There is much gray area, clearly, in the law itself in regards to recipes and copyright. She didn't post someone's cookbook, she didn't post someone's Magnum Opus, she didn't post their waxing nostalgic about their mom's muffins--she posted a list of ingredients and instructions on how to put them together!

I think it's ridiculous to think that a "joke" or a "recipe" could be something WORTH copyrighting, frankly.

Okay I am sorry I didn't mean to start a firestorm here ... but I see how deeply feelings run about this ... Is giving credit to the person or site that you get a recipe from enough to keep the copyright hounds away? I usually do this unless the recipe is shared with me through private e-mail.

I'm sorry I missed your recipe. Based on the title it sounds great! I am totally with DawnSelena on this one. It's not like you copied a whole cookbook or even sections of one word for word. It is a recipe for god's sakes! People should get over it and find something bettr to do with their time than report people for silly things!

Katherine, I'm sorry you were hurt by this. I think that it might be hard to differentiate between someone, like you, who posts one recipe they got from a friend, and others who post dozens of things they wholesale stole from one or two websites. You apparently were one of the former and thought to be one of the latter. That sucks. (I think there is currently some hypersensitivity to the issue - maybe if the 'latters' would knock it off, you'd probably not get hassled over it either.)

If it was me, I'd do this:
Search for the recipe title using google. (I did with yours and a cooks.com link comes up first)
Look and see if it is that recipe.
If so, write what you just wrote (friend sent it and I like it) and then change the directions around a little bit by inserting your own methods. I know you don't always follow recipes exactly so personalize it in your own words.
Post with credit to the original "based on this one from ___"
Perfectly legal and the people who write original recipes will defend your right to do it. At least I will.

DawnSelene, The law is perfectly clear even if your understanding of it is not. Someone worked very hard to create those recipes. I create original recipes and it takes a lot of time to do it right. How is taking their work and reusing it without permission any different from stealing 'just one' photo or painting? Either everyone's creative work is worth protecting or nobody's is.

Have you written anything original here? (I haven't looked so this is a serious question not a snark.) Is it okay if it is stolen by other people and presented as theirs?

Thanks kitchenmage ... like I said I was by no means wanting to step on anyones toes and feel that a recipe is something for everyone not just a few ... but I do respect the copyrights when I see them and always do my best to give credit and mention to the persons or sites I borrow my favorites from ... I guess I will just be more careful in the future ... I guess i am an oddball tho cause I usually follow a recipe to the letter!

Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds or prescriptions are not subject to copyright protection. However, where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.

NOT SUBJECT TO COPYRIGHT PROTECTION.

You're right. Very clear.

She didn't violate any copyright laws, yet Gather pulled her recipe.

" substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, "

The explanation and directions were included I presume. It doesn't have to be Proust, just the directions on making the madeleines.

So yes that would violate copyright law. This is why I suggested that if you want to post someone else's recipe, you rewrite the instructions in your own words. I'm sure you could do that if you cared to. (so it's okay if someone steals your work? you didn't object)

"Substantial literary expression" is the optimum phrase there. Unless you're performing verbal gymnastics, it's a pretty straightforward proposition, telling someone how to crack the eggs and put them into a bowl, isn't it??

Recipes, as someone else said, do not violate copyright UNLESS it meets the standards above, which is why those heinous church recipe books abound. Sounds to me like this one didn't.

Gather pulling recipes willy nilly seems pretty petty to me.

As for ORIGINAL work, great... if it's an original recipe you've slaved over, put it all together with a story about your great grandma and how to butter the cookie tin with flourish, and THEN it's worth copyrighting.

Otherwise, it's just a freaking recipe, okay?

I also wrote an article about copyright and recipes. (Ken F. has cited the information I used).

When posting recipes, put a little blurb about why you like it, what it means to you, etc. and change it to the way YOU make it! Personalize it and make it yours.

And I hope to see this recipe REPOSTED Katherine M. style! Don't let the hags run you off.

Same for you, Dawn Selena.

I have "invented" many recipes over the years, and I will say this again: RECIPES ARE FOR SHARING. Yeah, I've seen some of my concoctions on the web without attribution, but did I throw a hissy fit? Did it steal money from my pocket? NO!!!

i read once that a member would not accept a connection request from anyone who recycled recipes. what is a recycled recipe? im assuming because she has a connection that publishes recipes frequently that any similar recipe published after the connection's she considers recycled. how sad and immature. this is the same mentality that got your article flagged and removed. get used to it. its never ending.

I think this business is getting out of hand.
Kathline, I too wish I had seen your recipe for the Caribbean potatoes because they sounded great!! Sorry you were flagged!

In this case those directions count as the substantial literary expression. So do some substantial literary expression of your own.

Every recipe is someone's original work. Why is giving them credit such a heinous crime to you?

btw, Kevin's article is here.

Then there are the people that slobber all over someone's recipe that is in their gang; only those recipes posted by one of their own are good enough for them to salivate over. Huh.

I guess we could go to court over what "substantial literary expression" constitutes, but it seems to me there are hundreds of thousands of those little old lady church recipe books printed out there that prove recipes don't contain "substantial literary expression" in their directions...

Now, if it was something like THIS, maybe it would be considered a little more inventive and creative then "Crack egg into bowl and mix."

my mama always said when in doubt leave it out!!!! What's so hard abut all that?????

There are gangs, Shannon?

It's simple enough to change a recipe. I do it all the time. If I pull one from a website like Food Network, I don't use the recipe exactly as they write it anyway. I play around with the food, usually on six or more occasions, to make it how I like it. The few recipes I've posted here are derived from other sources (always quoted) but are never exact copies of the recipes as presented elsewhere. You're right in that adding a personal story helps make the article more personal to YOU.

I check for all copyright marks before I share recipes or anything else that I get in my e-mail.

Does this mean that you trust everyone who has your email address to check for copyrights and include the symbol in their email?

There is a gang? How do I join? What are the colors? I look terrible in orange.

IT sucks when you post a recipe only to have that same recipe stolen by another person. I am sorry that you were flagged, Katherine. Have you written Gather to ask for the reason for the flag and if they will remove the flag?

Then there are the people that slobber all over someone's recipe that is in their gang; only those recipes posted by one of their own are good enough for them to salivate over. Huh. And then there are those who slobber all over one person's recipe and don't feel like slobbering again a few days later when someone else posts the same recipe. Slobbering is kinda like that first love thing - difficult to repeat the same excitement the second time.

KM, thank you so much for clearing up this misinformation:

"you can't just stick a copyright symbol on something and have it be copyrighted"

If it is your original content, you don't even need to do this. It is always owned by you. Having a registered copyright makes it easier to claim damages when it is infringed.

When I cook a dish, I rarely follow the recipe exactly after the first time, so when I give out a recipe it's almost always so highly modified from the original (and I usually try to find at least two or three recipes on which to base my original), that I can pretty much consider the recipe my own by then.

I don't know...
but from the WendyWorld vantage point, it appears to me that this should be an issue for the Gatherites upstairs to render a yes, or a no, on. It would ultimately effect them the most after all, should someone the author? complain. My only question to them would be...
What makes this recipe so damn special? More so than say...a T S Eliot Poem or a stolen short story?
Hmmm, I'm just kinna curious...
I mean, seems to me that if I was upstairs, I'd at least pay attention to the big stuff first.
...just my opinion, an all.

umm I forgot the parenthesis when I italicized. My bad.
I'd fix it. Talk to Carl.

In other words, we all need to stop picken at each other and start holding Gather responsible. If for nothing else, for doing nothing while allowing the BS to continue back and forth. No matter who is right. Yes, I said it. I'm on no side but the members...all of us. Gather needs to step up, and soon.
Hasn't anyone noticed that they have made no attempt to resolve these complaints...any of them? Neither side's issues have been addressed -not even one. Geesh. Even the nuetral parties are tired of it, I can only imagine how frustrated the rest must feel. Make em own it. Together.

In other words, we all need to stop picken at each other and start holding Gather responsible.

Wendy, I agree that Gather is ultimately responsible. However, as members/citizens/responsible people, if we see that someone has published something that should not be published, I think we should let that person know. There is no way we can ask Gather's editors to know whether or not everything posted here is original. Nobody could possibly know that without doing an extensive search (and still not be positive) so I believe we have to take responsibility for our own work and our community.

The problem arises when people refuse to accept personal responsibility, and say to those who deliver the information, "I don't care. I'll do what I want." I believe that's when Gather should step in. They haven't always, so I agree with you that in those instances they are responsible for much of the continued bickering.

Didn't Gather pull the article? (and apparently other people's that were infringing as well) Doesn't that count as them responding,Wendy?

If your not a Real writer ( whatever that is ) you will probably be flagged by these people playing childish head games.

The flagging... made me quit writing anything serious for here. If it requires that I put in a link or quote something, I won't write it. Pretty much all this place gets now is journal entires and rough draft fiction.

I haven't actually 'flagged' anyone, HOWEVER, I tried to tactfully tell her that I knew she copied, word for word, from beginning to end, a recipe from The FoodNetwork. I took offense at this because none of this woman's recipes ever site The FoodNetwork as the source and I always thought they were hers until I saw the same episode of The Barefoot Contessa she must have seen, then saw a recipe from that show posted to Gather later that weekend.

I personally don't care if anyone posts a recipe found elsewhere online as long as they site where they got the recipe. Give credit where credit is due.

and then there are those who slobber all over one persons recipe and dont feel like slobbering again a few days later when someone else posts the same recipe.


yeah, shannon, you should never republish anything that someone may or may not have published before you. unless, of course, you like it so much that you have to republish it. theres even a group designed for articles just like that. dontcha luv it when the work is already done for you? so from now on, before you publish a recipe, check with every member on gather to see if theyve already published it. if so, ask for their permission. then after you publish yours, try not receive more attention on your article than theirs. i think that plays a major part too. and if you ever forget these rules, just look around. theres always someone, somewhere they claim they dont want to be to remind you of them.

Like something so much I have to republish it? For shame!

It's not just a freaking recipe to the person who created it! It is their intellectual property, and using it without acknowledging that is, according to the law, theft.

Katherine, I'm sure you didn't set out to do anything wrong. You don't have to stop sharing your recipes, just take the time to make them your own.

Like something so much I have to republish it? For shame!

If you like something so much, why would you republish instead of linking to the recipe that you liked so much? If I saw a recipe I tried and enjoyed, but maybe made a small change to it, I would go back to that article, say I had tried it with the adjustment and enjoyed it. Or, if I wanted to share it with my friends, I would send them a link to the already published article with my note about making the change.

I don't understand the republishing what someone else has recently published.

Shawn, somehow I doubt this about Kathleen at this point.

Okay, thank you every one I can see how this is a very hard subject for everyone ... I promise in the future to be more careful of all the copyrights, and I do post the original source when I find it in this case I was not diligent enough so will try to do better. I really did not mean to stir up this little hornets nest I was really just looking for answer which thanks to you fine people I now know what to do to avoid this issue in the future. I have written and asked Gather powers to be why and what I need to do but have not received a response. Thank you again for helping me understand. Not I will retire as I have been at work all night.

Don't feel too bad. I had to pull a bunch of my "copycat" recipes that my husband had. They supposedly were just like those on some other website that I had never heard of. It is really silly because they were my husband's recipes and he got them from his mom. She doesn't even know where she got them.

I don't understand why this is such a problem. If I understand this correctly, Katherine was asking for information to help her understand. She has been gracious in accepting explanations. But then all these folks come in saying "it's just a freaking recipe, okay?"

A recipe is someone's property. If you did not create the recipe, it's not yours to share. If you have made adjustments to it, it is then yours, but you must write the narrative (the instructions) yourself. If there is a recipe you really love that is someone else's property, provide a link. Ex: "Hey, I found a great recipe for Swedish Meatballs. Click here to see it."

I would also like to remind everyone that just because there is no little © does not mean the piece is free for the taking.

LOL, I see you have attracted the "Self Appointed Know It All Gather Police. It is so funny how they travel in a little pack.

Sandy said

"If you like something so much, why would you republish instead of linking to the recipe that you liked so much?"

Gosh I don't know why anyone would do that? I guess for the same reason that someone would like other people's articles on Gather so much that they would republish them. I think there is even a group for that somewhere around here. I wonder who the group owner is?

Moggy: *snerk* !!

(I love that your give a damn is busted... I think mine is, too! :)

There seems to be a lot of convincing being attempted here. There are definitely two opinions in this debate. Moggy, great descriptive name. I appreciate your input and no nonsense answers.

Spicy is quite nice.

'I BELIEVE WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN WORK AND OUR COMMUNITY.'

Yet, as a community some do not feel the health of an extremely sick member is newsworthy. When as many people care about this member it is. Any general information that attracts interest warrants reporting.

How many damn members are there on this site? And I have seen many excellent writers out of this number to choose from to read. If the so called serious writers would read them there would be know need for them to feel they should take the responsibility of management's job. If management feels they cannot sufficiently police their own site then they should hire select readers to do it for them and not allow a few self appointed ones to ruin the experience for the rest of the community with their arrogance and need to control.

I've read articles about Ken F's comment, the idea that it's really just the literary expression in a cookbook, etc. that can be copyrighted, not the list of ingredients.

1 cup of nothing better to do.
1 cup of self righteousness
1 cup of consuming jealousy
1 empty cup of talent
Add all ingredients to stirrers pot ,allow to stew and boil in self importance.
Result'' one drive by flagger , who most likely can't cook anyway.
Darcey D.

I'm sorry to hear this. Can we post them if we say where we got them from?

Margieanne, If you give credit where credit is due or have changed the recipe with your own touches then feel free to post them.

I just came to your sight to thank you for the comment you made to me. No comment on this subject. Have a nice day.

Can't believe people have nothing better to do than flag. Happens on all the sites. Anyone could say anything was "copyrighted" but the truth is they're bored, jealous or losers, in MOST cases! Keep your chin up!

Wow, I can't believe someone would flag a recipe! That's horrible. Sorry it happened to you.

I don't understand why some people
want to spend their time running all
over the place flagging things.
Sorry you had it happen to you.