Simon & Schuster Inc. Publishing House Discriminates

Good deal. I'm with you.

I am a published author. I have to tell you I think it is stupid, on the part of Simon & Schuster, to reject entries on that basis. I would not think that in this day and age that would be a consideration. I won't boycott them but I do think it is ignorant and foolish.

I am all for a fight against bigotry -but is this discrimination really in the Simon and Schuster rules, or is somebody "inerpreting" them?

Simon & Schuster is headquartered in New York City which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Get a lawyer, or call Lamda Legal.

Exactly right, Shawn. If they don't wish to choose a "gay" romance as the winner to publish because they don't think it's marketable, fine (I don't happen to agree). But to deny entry to every applicant is simply not acceptable on a public website.

Peter, internet law is very tricky. And S & S will probably pass the buck back to Gather. But I think it the pressure should stay right on them.

BTW, if anyone knows how to get the orange lines out of the first paragraph, email me.

I understand your sentiment... I think that it's the fact this is for their "romance" imprints. I would almost bet (though I'm not sure) that they might published gay-lesbian material under its own imprint/

But for this contest, the imprint is Pocket, which is marketed to their mainstream romance readers...

They aren't accepting sci-fi, or horror, etc.

Just a thought... the issue might be with the whole market of romance not being ready for same-sex as mainstream...

David- First of all I have to say that I'm sorry you had problems with your submission being accepted (I hope that I have that right... was it yours?). I don't think it's right. I say shame on Gather and the Publisher for being so closed minded.

Secondly, I have to say David that it's a shame that you ruined the article Elizabeth mentioned by insulting anyone with religious beliefs.

I couldn't even get past your first paragraph because of this. Basically you start off sounding like you are ranting about Gather, The Publisher and anyone else who is not open minded regarding a couples sexual orientation... then you go off making a likewise, just as close minded remark about religion.

I doubt very much that you care, but just to defend my fellow misguided religious believers (of any faith, Christian or otherwise), no... I don't believe in homosexuality for my own personal beliefs.

Having said that, I also do not judge any one else for their own choice of lifestyle, nor do I think that same sex marriages should be illegal. There is suppose to be a separation between Church and State.. I do not feel that an opposition toward same sex marriages is anything but "Church".

So, while my own religious beliefs may be misguided, I have to agree with your point (well.. what point I figured you were making anyway by what I read in the first paragraph).

Love is love and its a beautiful thing period. As much for me as for you. I am sorry for your troubles ! and the publisher is in the wrong here !

My resepct is as strong for you as yours is for me
Love and Prayers a christian

David- I don't feel the need to finish reading it, I do agree that religion has no place in the converstation as a basis of "right/wrong/acceptable/not acceptable".

I just found it incredibly ironic that such a topic requiring an "open mind" would have such an insultive "close minded" beginning.

Can you actually be honest with yourself and tell yourself it was not insultive?

I can't even get the article to come up now.

I think this kind of discrimination is more widespread than you think.

For what it's worth, some Simon and Shuster titles--

Rainbow Boys: Three teenage boys, coming of age and out of the closet. In a revealing debut novel that percolates with passion and wit, Alex Sanchez follows these very different high-school seniors as their struggles with sexuality and intolerance draw them into a triangle of love, betrayal, and ultimately, friendship.

Passion Marks: A gifted young writer makes his literary debut in this haunting and powerful novel about a gay black man grappling with his sins from the past -- and with the dream lover who turns out to be the lover from hell.

Science of Desire--The Gay Gene and the Biology of Behavior: A chronicle of the scientific investigation through which Hamer, a researcher at the National Cancer Institute, came to the controversial conclusion that he had discovered the "gay gene."

Love in a Dark Time And Other Explorations of Gay Lives and Literature: Tóibín examines the life and work of some of the greatest and most influential writers of the past two centuries, figures whose homosexuality remained hidden or oblique for much of their lives, either by choice or necessity. The larger world couldn't know about their sexuality, but in their private lives, and in the spirit of their work, the laws of desire defined their expression.

Always My Child--A Parent's Guide to Understanding Your Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgendered, or Questioning Son or Daughter: The first book to focus on the day-to-day experiences of adolescents dealing with sexual identity issues, Always My Child provides the insights and practical strategies parents need to support their kids and cope themselves. Parents whose children are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or who are going through a "questioning phase" are often in the dark about what their children face every day. As a result, offering support that will comfort and fortify them feels like solving a puzzle with missing pieces.

Why Marriage Matters: America, Equality, and Gay People's Right to Marry: A compelling, intelligently reasoned discussion of a question at the forefront of our national consciousness. Above all, it is a clear, straightforward book that brings into sharp focus the very human significance of the right to marry in America -- not just for some couples, but for all.

Place at the Table--The Gay Individual in American Society: Conservative cultural critic Bawer's canny appraisal of the gay rights movement calls for a more equitable place in American society for lesbians and gays.

New Our Right to Love--A Lesbian Resource Book: The complete lesbian resource guide, Our Right to Love instantly became a classic when it was first published in 1978. Now fully revised and expanded for the 1990s, this new edition includes over 60 articles and interviews covering the many aspects of lesbian life: relationships, sexuality, health, activism, education and sports, religion and spirituality, the law and legal issues, multiethnic lesbian experience, and lesbian culture.

The L Word--Welcome to Our Planet: Now, here is the official guide to this groundbreaking show, featuring more than 250 behind-the-scenes photos and all-new interviews with the show's cast, crew, and creators. With sections focusing on the main characters, the episodes, the styles, and loaded with fun sidebars that decode the show's trademark teaser openers and rank the hottest sex scenes, The L Word: Welcome to Our Planet is a no-holds-barred look at the show and the world behind it.

Same Sex in the City--So Your Prince Charming Is Really a Cinderella: Part confessional, part informational, Same Sex in the City covers the gamut of lesbian life -- from dating to heartbreak, and from hooking up with straight chicks to raising a family. It's the book that millions of women have been searching for -- a relationship guide that will help every woman come to terms with and celebrate her sexuality, whatever it may be.

Vivian- I couldn't get it to load from Elizabeth's link either. Just click on David's name with-in one of his comments and then on the article.

David,

I understand your frustration, but I don't think this is meant to be a personal attack on the gay community. Sarah said it best...this competition is for their Pocket Books imprint, which has certain guidelines...I wouldn't submit my novel into a historical contest even though it takes place in the early 19th century, because it clearly fits the mold of a "regency romance", not an historical taking place in the Regency. It's kind of a tricky situation, though...on one hand, I do believe you should have been allowed to enter, but then again, isn't it just a waste of time if there's no chance of them choosing you as the winner, since you don't fit into the Pocket Books guidelines?

Either way, I hope you meet with success in your writing career...I'm sure the homosexual fiction market is small and in need of good writers and open-minded publishers :)

Thanks Elizabeth for having the "cojones" to write this article!!

Elizabeth:

Okay. You brought it the the attention of the Gather audience. There obviously is a problem, at least I hope most might agree on that. You suggest a boycott.

Boycott in what way, and what would that involve? How would that be most effective?

I know "bottom line" is always the "ouch". How? And anything else?

Thanks Elizabeth.

Wow, David...I was trying to support you and still present the other side of the coin...way to make enemies!

. . . and would someone please tell me -- along with the orange lines -- how rating the article a 10 brings it DOWN from a 9.1 to an 8.6? I don't get that at all.

Whoever pulled this boned-headed move it totally out in left field; whether Simon and Shuster or Gather or both or whomever. It has shades of Gather who "reserve the right to change the rules at any time" like they've done on other comeptions and promotions in the past. I realize whichever is responsible for disallowing entries...it's their game and they can play it however they'd like. If they continue to do things in this manner, they're going to find no one is going to participate. Then, they can find out what it's like to be a rejected homosexual...and sit home alone...playing with themselves!

Elizabeth good article but as I have tried to explain to David before....S&S and Gather are both business' they are out to make a dollar...it is peoples attitudes that need to change.

S&S will go with whatever sells.

In the FC1 contest there were 2 extremely well written pieces...both having to do with incest....one of the authors told me in a private email that she cant get her book published because of the subject matter. It is just too obscene to the majority of the people and they didnt feel that it would sell. It is pretty much the same thing here. Until you can take the stereo type of a gay man being a queer out of most peoples minds then this subject will not be acceptable.

Wow, that bites! I don't understand people that can't seem to accept that this is 2007 and our world has changed, and STILL changing. What is the big deal.... we have had same sex couples around for how long? I'm not gay, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. This is America, land of the free! Same sex couples have rights too! There has GOT to be a market for romance novels involving gay couples out there.... Hang in there and keep trying David!

John M. -- True, S & S publishes a gamut of literary works and has no doubt published other "gay" titles. But were those titles published as a the result of a contest? Was "Science of Desire" the result of a contest about scientific literature? Was "Rainbow Boys" the winner of an adolescent fiction contest?

What?!?! Why did you have to take the "cheap shot" in the first place? I still don't get how you took offense to what I said at all. I was pointing out the way the publishing house sees things...I'm not a publisher, so how would MY attitude affect the industry?? And what IS my attitude?? All of my closest friends are gay - I'm an actress who's lived in NYC for 10 years, for heaven's sake - and I support your cause to be accepted in the genre, but that's not how things are right now. So, instead of being nasty and taking "cheap shots" at the people who post positive things in support of you, why don't you work on making a difference in the industry? I'm not looking to make enemies - I prefer to make friends - I thought I was doing that with my post, but evidently something was lost in translation.

Lori, attitudes will not change until all doors are open. And we did not sit on our hands and say that integration had to wait until attitudes changed. Some attitutes will never changed; that is not an excuse for inaction or discrimination.

Jerrica -- Yes, Pocket has guidelines and they must be respected. Authors must of course tailor literature to fit audience as theme, period, genre, explicitness, etc. I think David would have respected those guidelines and not written about gay vampires, gay space explorers, gay medieval lovers, explicit gay sex, bestiality, or any of the other guideline-violating problems.

How does making both of the two "lovers" in an extremely tame romantic story male betray those guidelines?

Let's get something straight, I do not have any problems with gay romance being published or marketed as "romance"...what I said and what Sarah said as well, is that the Pocket Books imprint plays to what Simon and Schuster believe to be their "mainstream" audience, which, in their opinion, NOT MINE, does not include homosexual storylines. And I don't believe that what we write has to be tailored, we just have to know how and where to market what we DO write to be published.

What's CV?

David darling, please publish your story. I love a good romance.

This person is a 5th avenue snob and an illegal immigrant. I'm out of here.

Elizabeth unfortuately this is one of those catch 22 situations....I firmly support David and think his entry should have been allowed in and judged on his writing abilities like anyone elses. I wouldnt take offense at anything but bad writing....LOL

David no worries at all. I am in support of you. I personally would love to read your novel.

I will eschew any remarks of that kind, Nalita. If that is your real name.

Purple Panties (due May 2008) and Flesh to Flesh (due March 2008) are lesbian and gay (respectively) anthologies that were contests by Strebor Books (another subsidiary of S&S). Admittedly, they were both billed as exclusively lesbian or gay books--not quite the same as what you're saying. Actually that might reinforce what you are saying.

A little research uncovered that apparently, although the RWA (romance writers of america) doesn't publicize this on their website, they do accept gay romance as a valid genre within romance. (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/12/10/020711.php) A straight woman who writes gay male romance novels won an award from the Utah chapter. (Wow there are so many unexpected things in that sentence.) The NYT also did an article about two gay men who write gay romance--I remember reading that when it came out. (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/12/magazine/12ROMANCE.html?ex=1276228800&en=5efa3b962ee94178&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) The publishers of these books, though, still seem to be either very small houses within larger companies or homegrown glb specialty printers.

I'm not sure what to make of all that, just tossing it into the mix.

*Sorry for the long links, I'm not savvy enough to make them clickable in my comments.*

Check me out all you want WEIRDO, IF that is really YOUR real name. You are an illegal alien from another galaxy. I am an American citizen with a valid real name.

And why do YOU live in Jersey and Miss Twinkletoes there has her feet propped up in 5th Avenue? Can't stand YOUR stink?

ouch Nalita! Careful, you don't want to be on the wrong side of the Swabian underworld. ;)

Elizabeth:

Boycott in what way, and what would that involve? How would that be most effective?

I know "bottom line" is always the "ouch". How? And anything else?

Let's add one more thing to the mix, shall we? Guess what the largest segment of the population with the most disposable income is?

GAY AND LESBIAN.

Nalita and all - maybe we should write Simon and Schuster and tell them that Gather is discriminating by using their name?

Wouldn't that be special, especially for a site that seems to be having issues with their adstream after moving into their new digs. HA!

Oh and by the way Jerrica, many of my friends are heterosexual, so what.

Okay - color me completely confused here. So Gather and S&S narrowed the contest to a specific type of market that they wanted this contest to appeal to. How is trying to sell books discrimination?

I'm not offeneded that my genre was excluded. Additionally, I wouldn't be offended if gather held a contest for a gay/lesbian-themed novels. I also wouldn't try and enter a heterosexual romance into that genre nor waive a discrimination flag when prevented from doing so. I'd think I'd be unwelcome by the other authors in a competition of that sorts. Gay/Lesbian Themed novels IS a genre...it's not mainstream fiction any more than Science Fiction Themed novels are. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Sorry.

I think they could have been up front about the criteria. Sounds like they permit only romance between people of different genders who are adults and not blood relatives. It would have been clearer.

I think the restriction is silly. I have this weird prejudice about stories set in Ireland later than the 5th century or so or the 11th century if they involve Vikings. I suppose that if I were putting on a romance novel contest I'd reject anything set in Ireland that didn't meet my criteria.

I'm guessing that some romance novels are well written. From my research--looking at what people are reading on the train I ride to and from work--I haven't seen any. Doesn't bother me. I've read a lot of very poorly written science fiction and enjoyed it. I'm just wondering if S&S will accept stories with character development, free of cliches and genre convention locutions, and writing that flows smoothly. We need some clarification on that one.

Didn't you know? There's no romance among lesbians, gays, bi-sexuals, transgender folk. Or, didn't you get the memo? ;])

I think it is about risk taking, but I agree it's non-inclusive and unfair.

Hi Elizabeth,

I can't agree with a cry of discrimination.

Those who originate the contest get to set the criteria. Would it not be akin to my complaining because the beauty contest would not accept my 11 year old daughter as a contestant when their criteria stated, " Entrants must be between the ages of 6-10 years old?" Is that an inept analogy?

I respect and support David Basora; his opinions and his writing abilities. He could win a contest in the proper genre. Go! David. :)

Hey! I was being faceitious! Look at my post above. There's a sideways smiley.

Elizabeth, not much for me to say here that hasn't already been said. As suggested by Nalita, a boycott that affects the earning power of S & S and Gather.

A day or week of silence on Gather may be a good start...their ad revenue comes from the amount of traffic on the site as well as peolple clicking on the ads. As long as we sign in and post, they're going to make money, so why not use that angle. The customer's not always right, the money is!