The Growing Dishonesty of the Republican Party

The worst aspect of what the Republicans are doing is the lying. There just isn't any room for that in America. It will not ever stop. But, it should always be rejected.

Thanks for a great synopsis of the situation, David.

Thanks for all your great comments on the post, Joe.

And I agree, we should always reject lying from ourselves and our elected representatives. All of us and all of them.

Democrats and Republicans are almost carbon copies of each other. There may be some real Christians on the Republican side. I cant see how any real Christians could team up with the Democrats with it being so anti God and, well you know the rest. I am just happy I will not be voteing Democrat or Republican.

Sorry David, I didn't read the post. I find reading about Republicans or Democrats way to boring for me. But if that's what people enjoy,more power to them. /smiles

# 4 is what's always confused me. They talk about how they want government in someone's life, as little as possible; yet they want to ban abortion and gay marriage. I can understand not agreeing with abortion or gay marriage, but wanting to ban them is another thing entirely; then it becomes forcing your views on someone else- since women having abortions and gay people getting married- aren't taking your rights away.

I have a Republican friend at work. He loves his lesbian daughter and treats her partner just as any other in-law. Once, I questioned him on how he can square his life experience with gay people and the Republican platform on gays and lesbians. He told me that it was just about getting votes and that no one really believes in it. I wouldn't know. I left the Republican Party in the mid-1970s. It does seem a little irrational to me. Maybe, he's not the only one in the Republican Party who lives with this serious disconnect from his values.

As far as abortion is concerned. The evidence is in. The 1973 Supreme Court decision called it right. The government should not decide whether or not a women should opt for an abortion. I appreciate President Obama's position on the matter. He asserts that a woman's right to decide should be protected while we take measures to reduce abortion through better adoption policies and enhanced birth control education and availability. Of course, this isn't what the Republicans want. They want to control this decision through government control because they seem to think that what they believe about the matter trumps individual liberty. You are correct, Ellen, that it doesn't quite keep within the conservative theme of keeping government out of people's lives. Perhaps, there are Republicans who live with this same disconnect as my friend does with respect to his lesbian daughter and her partner. Maybe, they are just going along with the anti-abortion crowd to garner votes.

Don't forget, Cheney has a Lesbian daughter but he makes no effort to change laws.

There does seem to be quite a bit of disconnect between the lip service and the reality.

The Democrats, of course, also have some disconnects, but the meanness and williness to lie bombastically seems to be something the Republicans have integrated into their platform. There will always be the extremists, but when the party is being directed by them it is a problem.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. At least your friend still accepted his daughter, some wouldn't have. My mom and dad had a friend, who's brother came out as gay; and was completely disowned for years by his dad. His dad only re-connected once he was dying of A.I.D.S. I think so many people in the republican party, have been able to overlook things like this; because they agree very strongly with other policies.

David Brock's book, " Blinded by the right"; shows this disconnect very well- I highly recommend it if you haven't read it. He originally joined the republican party back in the late 70's, early 80's; because the left was becoming radicalized- or at least the ones he saw.

Ellen, just remember that when you are in the public eye as Cheney is, to continue with his homophobic rants after the public became aware, well, that would paint him in a most unfavorable light as a human not just an ideologue!

There is no integrity in the Republican party as it stands now.

Why do you bother to try and find any?

I still have faith in the honesty and integrity of Americans.

I would like our political parties to reflect that faith.

Thank you, David, for this refreshing comment. Like you, I have faith in the majority of Americans.

It's true, we need a healthy and honest political debate in the country, from people we do and don't agree with.

Keyword is honest. Honest is healthy. I'm all for it.

They are both the same. Liars, cheaters, scum

Yeah, but the repubs have it down pat.

David, this is, by far, one of the best posts I've seen on Gather. It is very insightful and thought provoking. It should be mandatory reading for all politicians and all others who believe in this nation. I would send it to my lying Republican senators but I know they wouldn't read it and I'd just get a form letter back. (sigh)

David - last Friday I posted this:

And to all you naysayers - the accusers of Obama being a card-carrying communist, a socialist who was born in Kenya and is a secret Muslim - to all you crazies out there who do nothing but undermine our position in the world with your deceitful ways . . . the American people are tired of it.

SHUT UP!

I knew the outrage was there - I hope it becomes effective. Thanks for the post!

I sense that you are correct - that people are tired of it. That most people actually don't want the fringe elements running the party. Or maybe it is that only the fringe elements are left in the Republican party as it seems to have painted itself into a deep corner.

I suppose when you're locked in a cage with lions you better do whatever the lions want you to do.

I agree with both of you. Thank you, Richard and David.

I see here a several-paragraph opinion rant with very little real substance to argue about.

That said, I do happen to agree that there is a ton of corruption on the Republican side of the forest. But there are some even scarier things happening on the radical fringe left. But, arguing about left vs right is 1) boring and 2) missing the forest for the trees.

But there are some even scarier things happening on the radical fringe left.

I'm not sure if they are scarier, but clearly the fringes are, by definition, prone to extreme views. But I don't see the fringe running the Democratic party. In my opinion, the same cannot be said for the Republican party.

Great post David. Exactly what I have been trying to put into words in my discussions with republican friends - thank you!

The Republicans have become a vindictive party of hate, they have simply lost their moral compass.

The biggest lies come from the left, but you are too blind to see.

The lies come from all sides.

Marilyn- Please enumerate them then back them up with factual references.

Marilyn time and time again you prove you are an idiot.

I already shared links to lies - from Obama and about health care somewhere else today.

Robert, time and time again you prove that you have nothing to add so you make useless comments like that.

Yes, we've all seen your list. Now compare it to reality and see how many stand on their merits.

Feel free to start a new list after you do that:

1)

There you go again Marilyn. You are the purveyor of all the is evil about the wingnut society. You are so somothered in your right wing psuedo religious propaganda you wouldn't know the truth if it were in right front of your nose.

Come on Marilyn give us those propaganda links, Let's take a look at your facts.

Well then, David, if you insist that the lies Obama spouts are truth, that explains the problem. You'll believe anything. It's sad.

Robert, I doubt you've ever looked at anything that wasn't liberal propaganda. That's why you only have 3 things to say that you have to circulate everywhere.

You sure do assume a lot, Marilyn.

Hey Marilyn, go apply for an "entitlement" program and then criticize other for doing the same. Hypocrite.

Birther. Can't find anything real that the man has done wrong so your party makes things up.

Do I? I think I'm a good observer.

So Marilyn the great observer is here defending the conservative lie machine by saying the Democrats do it to. You would think that a moral person such as you Marilyn would want to elevate the conservative cause by taking the high road rather than justifying the Republican slime machine by saying that the democrats lie too. You are blinded by your false faith and your warped view of reality.

I said the biggest lies come from the left, Robert. That doesn't mean I condone lies from the right IF THEY HAPPEN.

Yes, you said that. But then, credibility does matter.

You're right it does. And to God and the most important people, I"m credible. Are you?

I will not degrade this post by insulting you as befits your words, so I'm just going to reiterate..

You're about as credible as the birthers...

It matters not what you think either, Catt.

I know, dear. If you could actually think for yourself, you wouldn't be so resentful of others doing it.

Let me know when you start.

I won't deny some of the stuff you said, but let's be honest. Democrats do the same things. The party on the sidelines does the same thing. They are no more dishonest than democrats during the Bush years.

And the GOP uses race to mount anger while democrats can see race in ham sandwich.

Name some lies the Democrats told.

Not to the extent that the Republicans do by a long shot.

Stating that "they do it too" is a middle school technique used by ten through twelve year old students everyday of the week. By high school, teenagers mature from that tactic on to better discourse. It still takes most people into their mid-twenties before they are able to take responsibility and simply respond to what is being said. This article is about Republican transgressions. There have been plenty of articles about Democratic transgressions. Let's stay on topic like the mature adults that we are. I have no problem working with middle school students in my classrooms. I like to think that Gather is a better place than middle school, however.

But Joe, have you forgotten that under the repubs over the last 30 years or so that education has been dumbed down quite a bit? Some say we don't need government in education. Others say they can do it on their own. With as many as 30+ million Americans today being functionally illiterate and many more can barely comprehend at a 6th grade level why would it be surprising some use middle school techniques to communicate?

There are party data facts in a post of mine which give a big look at what has happened since 1929. It is eye opening to some and refreshing for others. Take a look!

U.S. 40 Year Prosperity chart

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977832665

As an independent, I am disgusted with both parties. If they are not lying or spending my tax dollars foolishly, they are busy finding new ways to increase their pay or perks.

Like fighting useless no win wars for instance.

My belief is that we, the people, have to demand honesty and integrity in all of our elected officials. To do that, we have to demand those same things in ourselves.

We're not all there yet.

Yep, it is up to us, the people, to pull the strings on the so called leaders.

You are entitled to your opinion, David, but remember it is not shared by all.

There are at least as many of us who believe the Democratic party has been hijacked by the craziest bunch of loons this side of Bellevue.

You are entitled to your opinion, David, but remember it is not shared by all.

Ah, but it does appear to be shared by many.

There are at least as many of us who believe the Democratic party has been hijacked by the craziest bunch of loons this side of Bellevue.

Are there? How do you know? And what evidence do you use to support the belief?

David, I can play tit for tat if you want.

However, the point is we all have opinions.

Millions of Americans believe the Dems are flat-out nuts, for the most part.

I can list dozens of people, organizations, communities, ad nauseum...but I don't need to, and you know it. Open your eyes, David.

My eyes are definitely open, CA.

Guess we'll just differ on who we think is the craziest party at the moment.

As Senator Snowe suggested, what is true today may not be true tomorrow. The parties can decide who runs them, and we can all decide who how much we're willing to take.

That is the choice.

Facts C. A. , take your blinders off and meet the real world.

This is a common tactic of the right. Reduce the facts to mere conjecture. That way everyone becomes confused and doesn't understand that they are being lied to. Well, the gig is up, Republicans. The young people see you for what you are. Facts and opinions are separate types of discourse.

"The facts do not change according to our ability to stomach them." ~ Flannery O'Connor

And the only tactics that the left has is to shout, "Liar!" even to things that have been known facts for eons. And to call everyone who disagrees with Obama racists.

No, only lies are called lies and persistent liars called liars. You have a tendency toward wild exaggeration whenever it suits your purpose. Which is pretty much always. Credibility matters.

"the only tactics that the left has is to shout, "Liar!"
This is WWAAAYYY too easy ...somebody is not looking at her notes! (VEG)

hey dude,
Did you not take American goverment in college ? Now add power and lots,lots of money.
Power corrupts right ? So you do not think both parties are evil or one is good and the other is bad or they are both good !
A republican lived next door to a democrat finding one another outside watering their front yard, side by side. The democrat's daughter came out saying that there was a homeless man down the street. She asked for some money to give him to buy some clothes and food.
The republican offered to give her a job for 50 dollars to clean his back yard,cut the grass and also move some heavy fallen tree limbs to the front road. He said that thay both can go down together after the work and give it to the homeless bum.
She replied ; why don't he do this work and make the 50 dollars.
The republican just looked at the democrat smiling

The republican just looked at the democrat smiling

But did nothing himself? Is that your message?

no, just talking..sorry ! i know nothing of politics . i am very ignorant when it comes to these matters...thought it was a good story though...the democrat was busted the way it was told to me. I really do not care any more about this stuff. It is sad though because we all need to get involved in these matters. I see no way out unless we all join together and that is not going to happen in my lifetime. I like your post. It is very well written and I thank you....sorry to take your time up .

i believe the message was that democrats want to give all these reforms and free health care and MONEY away. but when it comes down to them individually then it becomes another matter....I think ?
I hope that i did not offend you...I did like the post..nice read !

No offense taken, I was just trying to understand the parable.

Personally, I think it makes more sense logically that the Democrat hire the homeless man to do the work rather than his daughter, unless of course you consider other factors such as whether the homeless man would be able to do the work (physically or mentally), whether the daughter preferred to the do the work, etc. The problem with parables is that they have to leave out most of reality in order to get across the intended message. Which usually means the intended message is one-sided and woefully oversimplistic.

I think the parable can be used to illustrate the very different point that the Republican would have been thinking.

The Democrat and his daughter rightfully recognized the problem, and though they may or may not have chosen the best solution, they did seek a solution. Meanwhile the Republican merely smirked and thought himself better than everyone else.

When one is seeking solutions they sometimes may miss the mark, but when one is not seeking solutions they will never hit the mark.

wow,
David K. you are smart...what you just said is true. You took a story truly defining that statement or parable...this one is yours...NICE WIN.
my serve ........

Korak the problem with fables is that they are fiction. So they can say anything the teller wants them to say. Another lie?

yeah , but I told the fable.....

I have to be honest there on that one...david turn it around very nicely..nice win ,david.

My working motto has been "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime." ~ Chinese proverb

I like the above parable or story of Republican superiority, by Korak. It isn't helpful, however. Republicans reject any funds for education or assistance programs to help those who are less fortunate. In fact, most Republicans are ingrates who rarely honor the people who helped them succeed. They prefer the mythology of the self-made person. The fact is that there are no self-made people. Everyone gets where they are with the help of many actors. That is why their attitude toward helping others is so galling. It is a form of stinginess that will always be anti-American.

Ok..You like the story thats kool ! The other stuff. I am not politically equip to answer...thank you tho..

I found your post courageous, David and I think you make a key point over and over. There is, as some have pointed out, plenty of lack of integrity on both sides, but there is a big difference of degree in what the leadership of each party is doing. Part of that is the strange loss of leadership within the Republican Party to the wannabees who have a media platform, but apparently not the courage to actually take on the job of leading the country.

Precisely. Thank you, Gerry.

David I thought this was an excellent post personally. I do have to agree with some of the above comments that there are lies and corruption on both sides of the political fence but I whole heartedly agree with your post and points as well.

I don't deny and would never suggest that there are politic games that go on in both major parties. That's the nature of the beast. Especially for the minority party. But what I, and many others, have been observing is that the Republican party has seemingly embraced the extremists in their midst and care not at all for the truth. The Democrats have their crazies too, but at least right now they are not manning the helm. That cannot be said for the Republican party.

Barry Goldwater warned Republicans of giving into extremists before he died. Interestingly, he had a lesbian granddaughter. He supported equality for gays and lesbians not because of his granddaughter, but because of the US Constitution. It either applies to all persons as it is written or it doesn't. Barry Goldwater was the last Republican who defended the US Constitution above all other principles. I think that John Stossel is also of the Goldwater mindset, as well.

Dave K. :

Thanks for excellent post - I agree 100%

This morning I was shocked to learn that there is Political Trouble in Britain with Right Wing Parties, and Right Wing Extremists. Of course there are Leftist Nuts and Jihadists.

But the Right Wing Nuts seem to be more dangerous in Britain, extremely mentally deranged guys, overcharged with Hatred and Racism.

This saddened me, because I love England and larger Britain and I have the highest concept of that Nation and her citizens.

I posted the story here in Gather.com - Here is the link to click :


Racial Hatred and Domestic Terrorism in Britain - Extremists making bombs at home - Verbal Intemperance and Racist Aggression

Vicente Duque

Hi again,
i reviewed your post and will return to read more. I could not comment because you have to be your friend...so i will say this here...ok?
I am not in your league in this politics stuff . But i did vote for Obama . I felt that we needed a change like all Americans ..I like him very much. Everyone is going to stand there to point out his wrongs and rights...he is in the spotlight...and hey did he not win the noble peace prize...kool ! one question though, What is that on your icon...a dead tree ? take care and push for the best that our country can do !

or BE !

I'm not sure what you mean about being a friend to comment, but any thoughtful comment is welcome.

My icon is a dead tree, yes. I wrote about it a while back here.

i traveled to your site saying that I could not write anything on your front page...I am new to this world . I may be wrong. Just wanted to ask you about your icon and stuff....its all kool. I am no enemy to anyone especially you ...lol ! A far cry to be on your level of politics only because I choose so.
I will be 54 with so much to do but it is nice to know that you are out there.

Naw, we are friends....thanks for coming to my aid...I did dog someone on this Sumerians thing..hey i have a minor in ancient cultures..that all..I will be good !
he said something about alliens...I need no more In-laws from Mars.

to say that the Current Republican Leadership is dishonest is like saying water is wet. Anyone who needs proof of thiis shouls seek professional help

This can be said about the Dems too. The most vocal and influential in the Democrat party have no qualms about:

1) Lying: Bold-faced lies made up and passed along through networks of paid lobbying groups and the lackey bloggers who willingly shill for their ideology (all while claiming to hold the "high moral ground") An also they call everything a crisis so they can ram legislation through without scrutiny or debate.

2) Disregard for the rights of others: Sure, stand up for the right to protest against taxes and carry weapons to town hall events, but screw the rights of normal citizens who want honest and accurate information and not to be terrorized by angry mobs given lies as talking points. Much like Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan, or like Al Gore cutting off the mic of people who ask legitimate questions.

3) Hypocrisy: Keep government out of business, but make sure that business keeps getting all the government subsidies that they then use to pay huge bonuses and salaries to the CEOs and Board of Directors (while instituting "efficiencies" [i.e., firing thousands of workers or shipping jobs overseas, all to maintain the bonuses and salaries of CEOs and the Board]). Dems' do this too, except they want higher taxes as well

4) More Hypocrisy: People should be allowed to make their own decisions, especially when it means they can tell other people that their religions are less worthy than theirs or that it makes sense to carry weapons to town halls. But making their own decisions doesn't apply to women's right to choose (which is legal under the law), gays' rights to get legal standing for their stable loving relationships, or to anyone who points out these hypocrisies. When it comes to Religion, Abortion and "Gay Rights" you will find it is not imposing their beliefs on others, it is about fighting to maintain their own beliefs. Should Religious people be force to give up their religious views for the sake of political correctness?

5) Still More Hypocrisy: Being gay is an abomination, unless of course you are a Senator soliciting gay sex in airport bathroom stalls, or a Congressman IM'ing pages (young boys that worked in Congress). I guess you didn't notice all the Republicans forcing that Senator to step down from his leadership position and calling for his resignation. You can't put this on the whole party.

6) Still Even More Hypocrisy: The Republican party is the party of morals who can stand on high and impeach a Democratic President because he lied about having sex, except when the most vocal critics of said President turn out to have been having multiple affairs at the time, soliciting gay sex, later running off to Argentina to meet a lover, and soliciting prostitutes. OK You Get This One

7) False Christianity: While most Republicans, just like most Democrats, are true believers and have strong Christian ethics, those that now seem to control the Republican party exhibit the most disgusting form of false Christianity. Their holier-than-thou attitudes makes them think that as long as they invoke God's name they can lie, cheat, steal, and seek personal profit while mortgaging the futures of our children and grandchildren. I don't remember that in my religious training. This false Christianity also insists that the first amendment of the Constitution really only applies to the Christians (and sometimes to the Jews, if you really have to push the limits), and that Muslims, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Atheists, Deists (which is what most of the founders were), Shintos, Hindi, and everyone else need not apply. I think this is a little far-reaching. You can't paint the whole party with this one

8) False Patriotism: Many in the Republican party seem to think that by wearing a flag pin and carrying a gun to town halls makes them patriots, while at the same time lying to get us into a war and then not adequately providing the necessary protective equipment to keep our soldiers alive. They seem to think that anyone who is trying to build a workable health care system that provides adequate and affordable coverage to the 30 million Americans without insurance is un-American, while lying about "death panels" in an all out effort to keep ANY health care reform bill from being passed is somehow looking out for the best interests of Americans (well, at least the Americans who run the big health-related firms and lobbying groups who provide so much cash to their campaigns). First of all, the intelligence to go to war was wrong, not false. As presented, the actions were proper, however, the data turned out to be incomplete and in some cases wrong. It is not a lie if you don't know it has errors in it. Dems also saw and voted in favor of it based on what was provided. Repubs are not trying to stop building a workable Health Care system. They are fighting a Government power grab. Yes it may insure 30 million currently uninsured people, while at the same time forcing the same amount if not more out of their current insurance plans.

9) False Outrage: "The government is taking away our rights" Isn't cutting off a persons mic while asking a question a denial of a persons right to free speach? (Except that is not happening). "The government is becoming socialist" (Not happening). Then what is it becoming? "The government is taxing us to death" (Not happening) Any tax increase in this economy is hurtfull. "President [insert derogatory name here] was not born in America" (He was). I'll go with you on this one. "The health care bill has provisions to kill off grandma" (Nope). "The government is attacking our first amendment rights" (Clearly not the case based on the ability of people to lie at will on blogs and elsewhere). What about the White House Attempts to shut down a cable news network that has the highes U.S. viewership? Etc. Virtually all of the "outrage" is based on fabricated information, ignorance, and being manipulated by the lobbyists. And that is the sad part. Real American citizens are having their real fears and concerns turned against their best interests by the willful and cynical manipulation by talk show hosts, lobbyists, and Republican leaders intent on gaining back a few seats in the 2010 elections. So rather than help address real concerns of Americans these groups use those same Americans to further their own agendas without helping Americans one bit. And who have the Dems Helped?

10) Vindictiveness: It's not enough to simply argue against the views of another person, the goal is to destroy the person himself. No moral integrity whatsoever, as they actively employ misrepresentation, misdirection, and outright lying. They have no compulsion about inciting violent and irrational anger over things that are bold-faced lies, such as the talking points provided by former Republican Congressional leader Dick Armey's lobbying group and other groups who forged fake letters to Congressmen. What Violence? The only violence I saw, was of an SEIU member beating up and shoving peaceful protesters. Don't Even Go Here, Pelosi and Reid are far bigger offenders than Dick Armey

The Dems have been far more mean spirited against their opponents, with the comments against Palins Kids, a gubernatorial candidates weight, another candidates stuttering problem. You are so one sided in your assesment.

Whoa, the apologist for lying, cheating and stealing has spoken. Poly you are as wonkie as ever.

I've thought about how best to respond to this, Poliwonk. Frankly, there are so many areas that I think you've just latched onto the talking points and thus mischaracterized things that it would take too long for the time I have. And it would be all for naught as we could go, as CA says, tit for tat, and achieve nothing.

So I think I'll just refer you to the comment far below here at:

Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 14, 2009, 5:33pm EDT

I will make one comment on the Al Gore cutting off the mike comment since I hadn't heard that particular one before. I found the video and it was a case of the anti-Gore movie filmmaker harrassing Gore after he asked his question and Gore answered it. In fact, Gore answered follow up questions from him as well. But the filmmaker had decided that he would turn the event into a circus and thus keep others from asking their questions, so the organizers (not Gore) cut him off. I would have done the same, as would any one else that was responsible for moderating the event. The man had his forum by doing his movie. Others also want their chance to ask Gore questions. It's the town halls all over again.

This illustrates one of my points. The question was asked and answered and yet it is presented as if Gore wasn't responsive. That is false. And it is further misrepresented by the spin the blogosphere has given it so that it has very little resemblance to reality. And yet people run with it.

We have to be a lot more discerning on what we base our opinions. I was able to find the video in about 10 seconds. Certainly no one expects everyone to do full research on every point they read on a blog, but there is no excuse for anyone using that information as a focal point for their opinion to do so without fully understanding it.

Okay, this turned out longer than I anticipated. Again, go take a look at:
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Oct 14, 2009, 5:33pm EDT

Okay, finally getting back to this so thought I would take a shot at answering each piece of Poliwonk's comments (which he inserted into a cut-and-paste of my post). Note that I already addressed the "Gore cutting off the mic" error in my comment above.

My original post is in regular type, with Poliwonk's inserted comments in bold italics, followed by my responses. See his original long comment above if it gets confusing, along with my original post.

This can be said about the Dems too. The most vocal and influential in the Democrat party have no qualms about:

1) Lying: Bold-faced lies made up and passed along through networks of paid lobbying groups and the lackey bloggers who willingly shill for their ideology (all while claiming to hold the "high moral ground") An also they call everything a crisis so they can ram legislation through without scrutiny or debate.

My response: Actually, the Democrats are calling crises crises, which is honest. Saying they call "everything a crisis" is inaccurate hyperboly. Also, saying that they "ram legislation through without scrutiny or debate" is more than disingenuous, it is a sign of lack of honesty or that you have been living on another planet. The health care bills have been debated for months, the climate change (or cap-and-trade) bills have been discussed for months as well. Members of the Republican party have acted as conduits for Republican input while the leadership gets up and says for months that they have no input. Frankly, no one is buying the whining anymore, Poliwonk.

2) Disregard for the rights of others: Sure, stand up for the right to protest against taxes and carry weapons to town hall events, but screw the rights of normal citizens who want honest and accurate information and not to be terrorized by angry mobs given lies as talking points. Much like Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan, or like Al Gore cutting off the mic of people who ask legitimate questions.

My response: I've already addressed the Gore mic cut off issue, for which you've relied on bloggers spin instead of actual facts. In short, he answered the question and follow ups before the moderator rightly moderated the event. The questioner tried to abuse the rights of others, and the moderator did his job properly. As for Code Pink, they insert themselves into any situation they can and are not related the Democratic party. Ditto for Cindy Sheehan. That doesn't make their methods acceptable to anyone, and most certainly they haven't been institutionalized into the Democratic party strategy.

3) Hypocrisy: Keep government out of business, but make sure that business keeps getting all the government subsidies that they then use to pay huge bonuses and salaries to the CEOs and Board of Directors (while instituting "efficiencies" [i.e., firing thousands of workers or shipping jobs overseas, all to maintain the bonuses and salaries of CEOs and the Board]). Dems' do this too, except they want higher taxes as well

My response: Seems you're grasping at straws here. Not to mention you seem to have forgotten party philosophies here regarding the first part of your statement. Democrats are the "anti-business" party, remember. At least that is what the Republican party characterization says. Regarding the second part, the old saw "Democrats just want to raise your taxes" has degenerated into a bad bumper sticker with no meaning. Republicans have increased government size more than Democrats, and have mortgaged our futures by expanding our debt faster than Democrats. Call it borrow-and-spend, only the payments are expected to be paid by others.

4) More Hypocrisy: People should be allowed to make their own decisions, especially when it means they can tell other people that their religions are less worthy than theirs or that it makes sense to carry weapons to town halls. But making their own decisions doesn't apply to women's right to choose (which is legal under the law), gays' rights to get legal standing for their stable loving relationships, or to anyone who points out these hypocrisies. When it comes to Religion, Abortion and "Gay Rights" you will find it is not imposing their beliefs on others, it is about fighting to maintain their own beliefs. Should Religious people be force to give up their religious views for the sake of political correctness?

My response: Try reading that again and tell us if it makes sense when you read it a second time. It suggests that your right to heterosexual marriage is somehow reduced because gays are allowed to marry. How is that? And how is your faith affected by the ability of others to freely practice their faiths? Come on, Poliwonk, where do you get this bizarre contention that your religious views will change if others are allowed to act in accordance with the law or are allowed to have their own religions. Does your neighbor being gay make you gay? Does your neighbor being Muslim make you any less a Christian? Does your neighbor having an abortion in accordance with the law mean you are forced to have an abortion? Of course not. You don't have to give up your religious views for others to have the right to theirs. The problem is that you want to impose your religious views on others. That isn't what our country was built on. It was built on us all having the right to practice our religions as we see fit. Frankly, if your faith is so fragile, perhaps you need to be focused on why that is so rather than trying to restrict the rights of others.

5) Still More Hypocrisy: Being gay is an abomination, unless of course you are a Senator soliciting gay sex in airport bathroom stalls, or a Congressman IM'ing pages (young boys that worked in Congress). I guess you didn't notice all the Republicans forcing that Senator to step down from his leadership position and calling for his resignation. You can't put this on the whole party.

My response: You've missed the point here, plus are inaccurate. First, the inaccuracies. The bathroom gay sex solicitor senator was not forced to step down, in fact, he finished out the rest of his term before retiring (reneging his earlier promise to step down). The page solicitor did resign after he was exposed, but it was revealed that the Republican leadership did nothing to remove him or force him to stop for months before it became public. Only after it was public did they suddenly ask him to leave his leadership position.

But that isn't the point. The point is that these people were actively vocal against the very thing that they themselves were doing. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

6) Still Even More Hypocrisy: The Republican party is the party of morals who can stand on high and impeach a Democratic President because he lied about having sex, except when the most vocal critics of said President turn out to have been having multiple affairs at the time, soliciting gay sex, later running off to Argentina to meet a lover, and soliciting prostitutes. OK You Get This One

My response: This isn't a game where someone is keeping score. This is about honesty and integrity.

7) False Christianity: While most Republicans, just like most Democrats, are true believers and have strong Christian ethics, those that now seem to control the Republican party exhibit the most disgusting form of false Christianity. Their holier-than-thou attitudes makes them think that as long as they invoke God's name they can lie, cheat, steal, and seek personal profit while mortgaging the futures of our children and grandchildren. I don't remember that in my religious training. This false Christianity also insists that the first amendment of the Constitution really only applies to the Christians (and sometimes to the Jews, if you really have to push the limits), and that Muslims, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, Atheists, Deists (which is what most of the founders were), Shintos, Hindi, and everyone else need not apply. I think this is a little far-reaching. You can't paint the whole party with this one

My response: Of course not. But the party is increasingly painting itself into a corner where all the most extreme folks are camped out.

8) False Patriotism: Many in the Republican party seem to think that by wearing a flag pin and carrying a gun to town halls makes them patriots, while at the same time lying to get us into a war and then not adequately providing the necessary protective equipment to keep our soldiers alive. They seem to think that anyone who is trying to build a workable health care system that provides adequate and affordable coverage to the 30 million Americans without insurance is un-American, while lying about "death panels" in an all out effort to keep ANY health care reform bill from being passed is somehow looking out for the best interests of Americans (well, at least the Americans who run the big health-related firms and lobbying groups who provide so much cash to their campaigns). First of all, the intelligence to go to war was wrong, not false. As presented, the actions were proper, however, the data turned out to be incomplete and in some cases wrong. It is not a lie if you don't know it has errors in it. Dems also saw and voted in favor of it based on what was provided. Repubs are not trying to stop building a workable Health Care system. They are fighting a Government power grab. Yes it may insure 30 million currently uninsured people, while at the same time forcing the same amount if not more out of their current insurance plans.

My response: For the first part, it's pretty much down to you and Dick Cheney who still claim "it's the intelligence, stupid" on Iraq. Cheney and chums started planning as soon as they were elected on how to get Saddam Hussein. The 9/11 tragedy and ensuing war in Afghanistan gave them an opening, which they then blew the shutters off to allow them to walk into Iraq. They knew that Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11, knew that the WMDs were old news, knew that the yellow cake from Niger was a hoax, and knew enough that they had to lie their way into war. There is no credibility to continuing claims that the intelligence was faulty; it was not. It was accurate, and it said that there was very little credible evidence of Iraqi involvement or WMD. Democrats and Republicans in Congress voted for it primarily because they were misled by the White House. The White House knew better.

Regarding health care, your argument again holds less water than a busted sieve. A government power grab? From who? The government already has the power. And why would they want more? Or have you bought into the Republican propaganda that the government has nothing better to do than collect power? Please. The actions taken by government are all designed to accomplish specific goals, which usually are related to filling gaps that the market cannot adequately fill. In this case the insurance companies have virtually total control over health care in this country, including the ability to reject claims, drop coverage if people actually use it, and raise costs at 10 times faster than the rate of inflation. Your comment that if 30 million are added, another 30 million would be forced off is not accurate, and if it were it would show exactly why the system needs to change. The insurance companies can manipulate the system because they have very limited oversight, not to mention enjoy anti-trust exemptions that allow collusion.

9) False Outrage: "The government is taking away our rights" Isn't cutting off a persons mic while asking a question a denial of a persons right to free speach? (Except that is not happening).

My response: As I've already explained above and in the comment before this, you've misrepresented what happened. The moderator acted appropriately.

"The government is becoming socialist" (Not happening). Then what is it becoming?

My response: It's becoming what it always has been. Only now there are attempts to deal with the big issues that past presidents and past Congresses were too wimpy to take on. In other words, it is trying to do what it is supposed to be doing. Have you ever lived in or visited a socialist country? We are nothing like socialism and could never be, and Obama isn't trying to make us one. Relax.

"The government is taxing us to death" (Not happening) Any tax increase in this economy is hurtfull.

I don't like taxes either. But you're tilting at non-existent windmills. Not to mention forgetting that not dealing with health care increases our individual costs each year by far more than any piddling tax increase that MIGHT happen. But again you're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on "tax increase." We waste so much money and Obama is pushing to get rid of much of that waste so that the cost of government actually goes down. Fixing health care will make the overall costs to all of us go down.

"President [insert derogatory name here] was not born in America" (He was). I'll go with you on this one. "The health care bill has provisions to kill off grandma" (Nope). "The government is attacking our first amendment rights" (Clearly not the case based on the ability of people to lie at will on blogs and elsewhere). What about the White House Attempts to shut down a cable news network that has the highes U.S. viewership? Etc.

You really have to read more diverse sources. The White House isn't trying to shut down Fox News, they are trying to make it honest. Of everyone out there, President Obama has shown he is the most willing to listen to all sides of the story, and has shown he can hold his own with anyone. But Fox isn't honest. They present propaganda as if it were news. It isn't. They have been caught time and time again altering videos, quotes, etc. so they can get across their point of view. Sorry, but a news organization doesn't have "a point of view." It may have its biases and leanings, but news organizations are required by professional journalistic ethics to be accurate in what they report. Fox has chosen to toss our professional ethics and instead promote a particular ideology. If they want to do that then they should be honest that that is what they are doing. They are not.

Virtually all of the "outrage" is based on fabricated information, ignorance, and being manipulated by the lobbyists. And that is the sad part. Real American citizens are having their real fears and concerns turned against their best interests by the willful and cynical manipulation by talk show hosts, lobbyists, and Republican leaders intent on gaining back a few seats in the 2010 elections. So rather than help address real concerns of Americans these groups use those same Americans to further their own agendas without helping Americans one bit. And who have the Dems Helped?

My response: Is this a serious question? Right now the Democrats are trying to help the 30 million people who don't have health insurance, trying to help the 300 million people who had the economy pulled out from under them by a bunch of rich bankers playing roulette with our money, and trying to help the 7 billion people on the planet who are threatened by climate change. I also expect them to try to help all Americans know about the chemicals we use every day. Plus there are the 200,000+ military personnel fighting two wars that they would like to bring back. I'm sure there are more that the Democrats are intent on helping.

10) Vindictiveness: It's not enough to simply argue against the views of another person, the goal is to destroy the person himself. No moral integrity whatsoever, as they actively employ misrepresentation, misdirection, and outright lying. They have no compulsion about inciting violent and irrational anger over things that are bold-faced lies, such as the talking points provided by former Republican Congressional leader Dick Armey's lobbying group and other groups who forged fake letters to Congressmen. What Violence? The only violence I saw, was of an SEIU member beating up and shoving peaceful protesters. Don't Even Go Here, Pelosi and Reid are far bigger offenders than Dick Armey

My response: The number of viable threats on our president have vastly increased over previous presidents, even before he took office. Violence includes taking over town halls and walking the streets with guns for no reason other than to be intimidating. As for Pelosi and Reid versus Dick Armey, you've again lost sight of the topic. Pelosi and Reid are current Congressional leaders who are trying to work legislation through their respective houses of Congress, whereas Dick Armey is a lobbyist using his former House connections to further the goals of his clients, which are the insurance companies and other big firms who like the status quo. And he is doing so by cynically manipulating honest but often uninformed people with real issues.

But again that isn't the point. The point is that the Republican party has been willingly employing deceit and deception as part of its reelection strategy. They are keeping the volume high on absolutely fabricated issues so people will forget that the source of their pain - the tanking economy - started under the Republican watch.

The Dems have been far more mean spirited against their opponents, with the comments against Palins Kids, a gubernatorial candidates weight, another candidates stuttering problem. You are so one sided in your assesment.

My response: A few random comments made by comedians and a few dolts are all that was said, but as is the usual strategy, the Republican blogosphere and talk radio and talk tv magnified it into something way beyond what it was. And you'll remember that Obama and everyone else in the Democratic leadership chastised the comments. How often do you hear the Republican leadership chastising Limbaugh or Beck? Never. Regarding the weight comment, I assume you are referring to the one ad run by the Democratic candidate in New Jersey that used the phrase "throwing his weight around." I agree that the use of the phrase along with a one second shot of his opponent disembarking from his SUV was uncalled for, and the ad was quickly pulled. But the point of the ad was that the Republican a "threw his weight around" to avoid having to pay tickets and get his license revoked for motor vehicle infractions that he says he was strong on enforcing for others. It showed his hypocrisy.

Regarding the stuttering, you'll find that was a Republican saying it against the Democratic candidate in Virginia, not the other way around as you imply. I'm sure it was just a mistake, just like Fox seems to have a habit of accidentally identifying Republicans who do something wrong as Democrats.

As for being one-sided, if you look at the post again you'll see that this article is about the Republican party. So, needless to say, my comments refer to the Republican party. And it is the Republican party that has shown that it has systematically incorporated deceit and dishonesty into its strategy for teh 2010 reelections.

I think they figured out during the Bush II years what their poster child Rush did years earlier: selling to the least common denominator works. And it'll probably work again in 2010 if they can stonewall Obama and Congress enough to make sure no real progress is made.

Perhaps, but not if the American public stands up and demands we deal with our pressing problems with honesty and integrity.

"those that now seem to control the Republican party" Thats because they only claim to be Republican. They are NeoCons. The Republican party stands for smaller government and lower taxes. When in the last 20 years has a Republican done any of that? The GOP has been hijacked but even at that there is no need to lie about them they do enough without misleading and lies.

Don't you think it would be a lot more productive to consider what can be done about the economy, wars, etc than to spend your time bad mouthing a political party. A lot of togetherness discussing the issues would be a whole lot better and spread less hate.

Don't you think it would be a lot more productive to consider what can be done about the economy, wars, etc than to spend your time bad mouthing a political party. A lot of togetherness discussing the issues would be a whole lot better and spread less hate.

If this had come from someone without your track record I would take you seriously. But allow me to borrow it.

"Don't you think it would be a lot more productive to consider what can be done about the economy, wars, etc than to spend your time bad mouthing a political party. A lot of togetherness discussing the issues would be a whole lot better and spread less hate. "

Hey George you might want to read and apply that comment to your own life, as we all should. Now if you can just convince the lying obstructionists in this country to do the same thing we will have something.

Don't you think it would be a lot more productive to consider what can be done about the economy, wars, etc than to spend your time bad mouthing a political party. A lot of togetherness discussing the issues would be a whole lot better and spread less hate.

Any comments?

Yes. I think it would be much more productive for the Republican party to consider what can be done about the economy, wars, etc. rather than spending their time bad mouthing their president.

I agree with Kay.

There are still a few Republican senators and congressman that I still have some respect for but I wish they would stand up and speak out more.

Agreed. And I feel the same way about the Democratic members.

It's up to us to demand excellence, honesty and integrity on both sides of the aisle.

The key is honesty and integrity. Honesty and integrity is shouted down by the wing nuts as being unAmerican. Helping people is portrayed as evil. And this from people who would have us believe they are Christains.

BTW David I love your tree. Dead trees are an art form all their own.

I wrote about the back story of my icon about a year ago.

Now who loves America more? It's not the GOP

It is not necessary to compare the Democrats to the Republicans when the subject of a particular criticism is aimed at the Republicans. If the criticism of the Republicans is accurate or if it is not accurate...the actions of the Democrats is not relevant to the argument. This is a childish ploy .... to steer the conversation from the Republicans to the Democrats in order to avoid criticism of the Republicans...it is a method of distraction.

The poor performance of one party cannot be excused by the poor performance of the other party.

Very well said.

Damn straight Slim.

I am having to think hard about this one, David. I am going to have to be very nuanced.
1. Neither political party has a monopoly on honesty. It's a given. Any political party of more than five people is going to have one person at least who cares more about winning than about being honest.
2. that being said, the Republican Party USA has not exactly made itself look good over the past 10 years. A number of people have done the lying-is-no-vice-in-the-defense-of our-party thing.
3. Being a Dem myself, it's hard for me to be 100% objective. But let me struggle mightily and be at least 10% objective and say, Dems maybe lie more by OMISSION, while Republicans lie much more by COMMISSION? As in, Charles Grassley and Sarah Palin may rant about death panels (Active lies), but Dems may leave out the fact that we are going to hit a wall when we have to shift from deficit funding of recession measures to paying off the debt (lie by leaving something out).
4. There is another problem: LIES WORK. In other words, you want things to go your way, LIE FREELY, because lying works. Why does it work? Because, in the words of Charlotte the Spider, humans are gullible. Well, they are, dang it.

In other words, if you want fewer lies, stop accepting the lies so freely without fact checking.

Chris, I agree with your point about lies working. Someone once said that a lie, if not challenged within 24 hours, will become the truth. Innuendo works the same way. You don't even have to go as far is lying. Just allude to something as being possibly true and those who want it to be true will believe it and pass it on.

Unfortunately, the parties know that lies do work. It's like an attorney that "accidentally" mentions an issue that pre-trial hearings already decided was inadmissable. Even though the judge tells the jury not to consider it, the attorney knows they will, especially if their is controversy surrounding it. Can't forget something provocative.

Which is why they lie or have surrogates lie (plausible deniability).

I don't know that you have to be nuanced, just honest, Chris. Seems to be a good policy. I did want to come back and add a thought on this part:

3. Being a Dem myself, it's hard for me to be 100% objective. But let me struggle mightily and be at least 10% objective and say, Dems maybe lie more by OMISSION, while Republicans lie much more by COMMISSION? As in, Charles Grassley and Sarah Palin may rant about death panels (Active lies), but Dems may leave out the fact that we are going to hit a wall when we have to shift from deficit funding of recession measures to paying off the debt (lie by leaving something out).

I'm not sure I agree with this, or at least I partially disagree with this (how's that for nuanced).

I think both parties do way too much of both lying (misrepresenting) by omission and commission. But my observation is that the Republican party, at least as of the last several years, is by far become a party where the ends justify the means. I do see this with the Democratic party, but to a much lesser degree. Even during the Bush administration I didn't see the level of shear disregard for the truth that for the current Republican party I think goes way beyond mere hyperboly. I even saw it during the Bush administration so it isn't just a "minority party" thing. It's a function of the sectionalization of the party, which ironically is what the South accused the Republicans of just prior to the Civil War. At that time it was functionally true but only because the South wouldn't allow Republicans to run there. Nowadays it is more true but because the strategy of the party was to "bigger half" strategy (each party gets half, but we get the bigger half). And that strategy relies largely on sectionalism, something that Obama was success at countering.

In any case, your last statement is the wisest I've seen, so I'll recopy it here:

In other words, if you want fewer lies, stop accepting the lies so freely without fact checking.

I'll accept your contention that there is a big difference between the 2 parties, and that the Republicans suffer by the comparison. I hope, and believe, that I am being objective in that, which is hard for me in this area, as I say.
I guess I was alluding to this difference when I wrote on lies by omission and by commission. I consider omitting an important topic to be a minor fault, at least outside of a courtroom! Journalism is supposed to be up to the job of bringing up stuff that politicians shy away from. But when politiicians are making something up, as in the death panel nonsense, that's rather egregious. And I think it is very hurtful to political discourse. And I do see Republicans doing alot of that, and I see Dems doing not much at all.

Thanks for your kindly acceptance of my last statement. The discouraging bit is that human nature rarely operates well in the area of fact checking- too much lazy, too little objectivity.

I appreciate your comments, Chris. One point about the fact checking. The internet has in some ways made it easier to fact check. There are several reliable non-partisan fact checking groups out there that parse claims by both the right and the left. In addition it's pretty easy to get YouTube or news video of public events (and it seems most events have someone with a cell phone camera taking pictures). In most cases it takes only a few seconds to find out whether something is true or not. The failure to do that when writing a post is dishonest as it shows a willingness to push a viewpoint without any due diligence for making sure it is accurate information.

The flip side is that for anything that is not covered by one of the reliable fact checkers or isn't on video, the internet provides a repetitiveness that imparts a sense of authority, even when something is absolutely false. The death panels is a good example. One person uses the term death panel without having even read the bill. From there was sprung thousands of blogs where some right leaning blogger would take it and cut-and-paste a couple of sections (out of context) from the House bill (even though the Senate bill hasn't been finalized and the conference bill may not have that section in it). They create a false story line that seems to support it, even though the entire storyline is a fabrication based on the misrepresentation of a couple of out of context statements in one bill. So the story is false but then it "goes viral" and all like minded bloggers start copying into their blogs and soon there are thousands of blogs all saying the same thing. All of which are false. But the shear volume makes some people think that it must be right, after all, bloggers wouldn't just repeat falsehood, would they?

The shame is that we have death panels now. They are called insurance companies who decide whether you should be covered for what can be fatal conditions if not treated. And people die either because they were denied treatment or because the insurance panel delayed decision-making until it was too late. Where is the outrage against these real death panels that have been going on routinely?

Nothing we hear on the internet should be considered absolutely true. Especially if it is something so outlandish as to suggest we're going to put grandma off an ice floe to die. That's where taking responsibility for thinking comes into play.

That's it people keep going with the party politics bashing and ignore what is really the issues. Just as they want you too.

Perhaps you read wrong, George. This article bashes dishonesty and lack of integrity. It's just that I've observed the Republican party being dangerously emphatic, and even taking pride in, doing just that.

As I said below, this is on us. If we demand honesty and integrity and not post all sorts of crap that was debunked two years ago, then we'll get things done. Check your posts, George. Then let's get honest.

I'm as guilty as the rest I admit. If this article changed one word I would be all for it and agreeing. Republican should read Neoconservitive or if you wish Neoconservative Republicans although I would point out that here are Neoconservitives on the Democrat side as well.

Interesting.

the only option besides paying attention to political parties, Colonel, is to stop voting, and then proceed to bend over and kiss one's fanny goodbye. Political parties exist. Until they no longer do, ignoring them will be foolish.

Political parties exist for a reason, and blaming this on them is just way to easy an excuse. It's also abdicating our own responsibility in governing the country.

Bottom line, if we start demanding honesty and integrity, and back it up with our voting, we'll get it from the parties. But we don't. We demand they patronize us because its easier to deal with what we want to hear than what we should be hearing. We demand they "bring home the bacon" to our districts, so they do. We whine and complain about Congress, then we vote the incumbents back into office on a 95+% rate every single time.

This one is on us. We shape up, they shape up. Period.

When we fail to vote or vote on looks "he looks presidential" and do not check the records of the people we do vote for we are guilty of neglect.

As you said "We whine and complain about Congress, then we vote the incumbents back into office on a 95+% rate every single time." how stupid is that?

So what is the answer, George?

David
This has been an article well waited for!!!
Its hard to discribe me I am an Christian but not your typical christian I have an open mind. I do know there are unexplained things that our so called religion is not telling us (lying/hiding) I was brought up Catholic so I do know they way they work. I am not putting them down or judging them but I sure do know its Not Right. I surely will not take a stance on a party it is no better then organized religion.
Its getting to be you can not believe or trust anyone.

Chris I wish the Political Parties would disapear we do not need them ..

.People can run and we vote for the person not the Party why do we have to have all these labels ..I refused be called anyone of them.

Its the same with the label of Christian...I believe what I believe because of what I know not because the religion told me they lie.

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