Russia Invades Georgia, McCain To Benefit.

For half an hour before the opening day of the Olympic Games .... Georgian troops have begun large-scale hostilities. with artillery and heavy armour weapons. As a result of shelling damaged dozens of civilians and peacekeepers. By the middle of the day osetii The capital was virtually destroyed and 70% controlled by the Georgian military. The authorities of South Ossetia appealed to Russia, and the world community to influence the leadership of Georgia. By 14:00 (Moscow time) Russian air force launched missile and bombing strike on the airfield and positions of Georgian troops, after which the bombardment of residential areas Georgian aircraft stopped ... By the middle of the day Ossetian troops managed to take control of most of Tskhinvali. As a result of daytime fighting Georgian troops (at least) lost 4 tanks and several armoured units ...
By late afternoon the situation has continued mapuna .... The Georgian authorities made a declaration of support in the war with Russia, on its independence to the death of innocent civilians ... also has been declared a general mobilization of the population ... At 18:00 in the vicinity of Tskhinvali entered with a Russian armoured column. Ossetian militia spend trimming areas of Georgian soldiers ... mapuna situation continues ...

This land grab is more similar to Russia's earlier invasion of Chechnya... which we had no problem with & continue to support Russia till date. So why the hu ha?

This not comparable to Iraq in many sense.. Russia still considers all these parts as those of Russia.. they r not flying half way across the world to lay claim on foreign land. Don't compare apples to oranges.

But i do agree that the world should not tolerate such invasions any more.

"the US received when it entered Iraq, under a U.N. Resolution and with the support of Congress?"

Excuse me, Capt. Delusion, but the UN never provided a resolution for military action in Iraq in 2003, and neither did the US congress do so in October of 2002. The congressional resolution required that georgie prove that Iraq had attacked us, or was about to. He did neither, therefore the congressional resolution was NOT a nod for military invasion.

You don't get to make up your own set of facts, to suit your little agenda. Sorry.

And, how on God's earth would something like another war of aggression in the world be to John McCain's favor, particularly when he thinks that Georgia is a state in the southeast US? This guy is utterly clueless about geopolitics, and if anything, what this proves is that the bush/mccain doctrine of shoot first, plan later is idiotic and a threat to world peace and stability.

I'm curious as to how we "know" what is going on at the moment. Shouldn't we actually find out the facts before claiming one side is right and the other side wrong. There have been serious tensions between the two countries - and dispute of some territory - since the break up of the USSR.

Seems prudent to think before speaking.

And what does this prove about McCain's ability as CIC?

Absolutely nothing.

He's still out chasing camels on the Iraq Pakistan border.

"Seems prudent to think before speaking. "

That's not the republican way.




"And what does this prove about McCain's ability as CIC?

Absolutely nothing. "

Obama needs to attack McCain directly and forcefully on this, because he is absolutely, positively not qualified to be CIC, and all it would require to prove this to the American public would be for Obama to point out the numerous extremely serious gaffes that McCain has made with regard to foreign policy issues. He could also point out that McCain never commanded a single soldier in combat. Not one. He simply has no qualifications to be CIC, yet he's being assumed a "natural," because of the fraudulent image that the "liberal media" has built around him.

I don't think this issue will affect the election. First of all, it's a complicated issue in which easy good guys and easy bad guys aren't found. Secondly, when you say Georgia, most Americans think you're talking about the home of the Atlanta Braves.

If the conflict widens, it affects the election. If Paris Hilton gets involved, it affects the election. Otherwise, it will be forgotten.

Clark is right " the UN never provided a resolution for military action in Iraq in 2003, and neither did the US congress do so in October of 2002. The congressional resolution required that georgie prove that Iraq had attacked us, or was about to. He did neither, therefore the congressional resolution was NOT a nod for military invasion."

From the information Danette provided, The Russians were Invited. Whole different thing than Iraq or Afganistan.

McCain not qualified to be the CIC? A lot more qualified than Obama who has NO military experience and probably don't know a PFC from a Major.

Poliwonk,

May b the Russian congress gave the army the permission to attack Georgia.. does it make it legal now?

I don't think so.

Do you really see a benefit for anyone in the commencement of another armed conflict

Can somebody explain in clear and uncertain terms how being a fighter pilot and a POW 40 years ago automatically makes someone a great President. It seems that John Kerry in 2004 saw more actual combat in Vietnam and yet he was trashed for his service. In addition, there were many POWs in Vietnam, most of whom would not be qualified for President. And there were hundreds of thousands of other veterans who also would not be qualified to be President.

So just what exactly is it about John McCain's service that suddenly, after 40 years, makes him so qualified to be President that we should feel unpatriotic to even consider someone else for the job?

It just seems like a total disconnect to me.

This is a serious question. I ask it with a completely open mind.

Political Futures

Thank you for posting to ~3,000 Here We Come!~

I don't really have an opinion either way on this one....

Just got off the phone with some folks in Tbilisi. They were seeking some cotact info for massive medical assistance because of the Russian invasion. They say that the Russians are seeking to separate Abkhazia & South Ossetia to use as a base of operations to thus have Chechenya surrounded. The Russians are pushing through the Pankisi Gorge up to the Chechen border.

I’m, too, very much worried by the present situation and even came to my church after a rather busy working day to pray for peace. Basically, the situation is as follows. Ossetes are divided between the two countries: North Ossetia is one of Russian autonomies, South Ossetia is the part of Georgia. (BTW, Stalin was not Russian, but half-Georgian, half-Ossete, and it was him who was responsible for establishing such administrative borders). When the USSR still existed, it didn’t matter much, but almost all the Georgian leaders since Shevardnadze conducted the policy which could well be described as nationalistic, much to the regret of Georgia’s national minorities, Abkhazians and Ossetes. Saakashvili is not an exception. He could play Bush’s puppet, annoying Russia and positioning himself as pro-Western, but if someone seriously thinks that the standards of Western democracy can be applied to Georgia, this person is rather naïve, to say the very least. Another mentality, quite different priorities. Anyway, it seems that Ossetes don’t want to live under Saakashvili, rather preferring to be united with their Northern brothers and sisters in Russia, so he reacted by using force. Since the vast majority of the South Ossetes have Russian passports (for the reason described above) AND Georgian military seems to have killed several Russian peacemakers along with the numerous locals of Ossete origin, Russian government simply had no other choice but to react – in a crude, blatant way, that’s true, but try to imagine what would happen if Americans found themselves in the same situation as the Russian citizens in South Ossetia!... Sad. Very sad. I pray for God to interfere – but when one Orthodox Christian kills another, what God has to do with it?... ;-(

I must add that I have no bitter feelings either towards Georgians or towards Ossetes – not at all. It’s the politicians and their incredible foolishness who have to be hold responsible.

Hope this will clarify the situation.

Blessings - S.

Let us see, we have a man who crashed 4 or 5 fighter planes, may have killed members of his own armed forces on at least one of those occasions and got captured and held prisoner for 5 years after another one. Plus does anyone know for sure what he did while he was a POW and that for sure that he didn't sing like a canary? Oh and before he did that he finished 5th from the BOTTOM of his class at the Naval Academy. Yeah, that is who we need as CIC. After all he is way better qualified than the guy we have now...

Of course than there is the argument of him being a man of high moral character.. You know not a man who came back from being a POW to a wife that had remained loyal to him the whole time that he was gone. Than althoug she was very ill and basically an invalid, he went out and hooked up with a woman 17 years younger than him and carried n an affair with this woma while still married to the other woman and than asked the young VERY RICH woman with POLITICAL connections to marry him but neglected the fact that when he asked her that there was this little minor detail that he was still married. So than they married after he divorced the first one and yet the man was away from this woman when she had the first of her miscarriages, suffered a stroke and also went through addiction to pain pills that she stole from her own non-profit organization and than recovery from that addiction all while this moral family man was nowhere to be seen.

A great example of who I would not only want as CIC but also as the overall leader in all ways of the people in this country. You know what is so funny, if it was Bill Clinton that had this history the CONs would be wanting him crucified not elected president as they do with "Jukebox Johnny"!

I have the impression from several people here that you have to think before you talk, would you mind if I think about that for a little while?

What about when you fight or have a war, does the same notion apply to that, too!?! Will miricles never cease, I'm learning so much here, so quickly that I afraid I won't be able to process it fast enough for it to do me any good

by the way, who decides whether war is legal or not, I mean is the point here that if there is a legal justification for war, that it's a little better then a war for which there is no legal body that approves. How can war ever be legal, it is not human!

just rambling, sorry.

Svetlana Goryacheva,

Thanks for the explanation. You should write a detailed post abt all this.

Svetlana;

Thank you very much for a really lucid explanation.

VERY INFORMATIVE SVETLANA. SORRY FOR YOUR TROUBLES!

As I see it, Georgia has a right to defend and maintain its own national borders. And Danette, crossing a sovereign nations borders IS an Act of war. If those of Russian descent don't like it, they can move back to Russia.

Clark, the last UN Resolution, threatened serious consequences, which while not explicitly written, was understood at the time to be military action.

The Chechnya issue is different. Chechnya, is part of Russia, and is trying to break away from Russia, and Russia is resisting that. Ossetia is part of the Country of Georgia and Russia is trying to break it away and take it over from a sovereign country, with UN recognized borders. Can you imagine Mexico attacking one of our border towns and trying to make it part of Mexico because it is filled with Mexican Citizens.

As far as the Commander In Chief issue goes. Every poll shows that John McCain leads in experience, and effectiveness as CIC. He has spent more time visiting the troops and meeting the commanders than Obama has. The fact that Obama made an Iraq Policy speech a week before going there and meeting with the leaders and troops on the ground illustrates his lack of preparedness to lead. And then saying that you can make a decision without going there for 900+ days, because what others are telling you is enough. Isn't that what Bush is being criticized of? You don't make a speech first and gather the facts later.

Even though some of the facts ended up wrong, the President and Congress and the U.N. Based their decisions on the facts they had at the time. Could they have done better? YES. But sometimes you have to act on the information as it is presented. I would rather have McCain analyzing the facts and then making decisions, than Obama making decisions and then analyzing the facts.

Are they near Atlanta yet?

If not who the hell are we to say a word?

Every poll shows that John McCain leads in experience, and effectiveness as CIC.

That is a joke...where has he shown leadership to take on Bushy camp??? If he is so effective how come where in the mess were in now?? explain that? Maverick yet tows the line...what a farce....CIC stands out of the crowd and takes the high moral road...and listens and learns...nothing so far I heard is listening and learning from the GOP....

Brain I don't run the polls, they are what they are.

T"his is a bad sign of Russian intentions, and we definitely need a president with commander in chief capacity. Russia is not going to get any less aggressive towards its neighbors. Look at history.

"Can you imagine Mexico attacking one of our border towns and trying to make it part of Mexico because it is filled with Mexican Citizens."

Must I remind you most loudly about Kosovo and Iraq?... Are they also American border towns? And, since I'm not only of Russian origin, but actually a Russian who lives in Russia, I can only remind you all the phrase from my favorite Russian comedy: "? ????? ????" - "And who're the judges'???...

Dear Dorine - history says that Russia is no more "aggressive" towards its neighbors than US or almost any other big country. Also, I wonder how any of my Russophile friends are going to vote for the committed Russophobe McCain. For me, it would be the direct contradiction in terms.

Blessings - S.

Svetlana, as a student of Russian Culture and Language, If the tides were reversed, America would NEVER invade another country and keep the land as part of its territory. We would go in and rescue our citizens and bring them home, as we have done many times. I have no problem with Russia sending its troops in getting there citizens and then leaving. However, this is not there plan. Russia wishes to separate South Ossetia from Georgia and make it part of Russia. What's next, Kazakhstan, Belarus, The Ukraine? Where do they stop? Russians live in all of these countries. Should Russia take over every city that has a large Russian population just because they are targets of violence?

"If the tides were reversed, America would NEVER invade another country and keep the land as part of its territory."

And WHO told you, dear Poliwonk, that Russia intends to keep the land as part of its territory?...As far as I'm concerned, it's Ossete land and it's up to Ossetes, and to them only, to decide with whom they want to live. Nobody here is even trying to claim that this is the Russian territory. Only God knows whence you got the idea at all.

Dear Russel - if these "violent separatists" had Canadian citizenship and begged Canada for protection, then yes, Canada would have every right to intrude. And, please, leave to a native Russian to decide what is "typically" Russian and what is not. Why it's legal to want to separate from Russia, but not legal to want to REUNITE with Russia?... Where's the logic? I don't see any.

BTW, from what I got, Saakashvili's actions toward Ossetes remind very closely ethnic purges. About 1400 people, mostly Ossetes, were already killed. All these remarks above only show and confirm what every Russian already knows - that US government promotes double standards AND thus only indirectly supports the most xenophobic, chauvinistic and conservative forces inside Russia itself. As a staunch supporter of Russian democratic reforms, I don't want to be betrayed for the second time.

Blessings - S.

Dear Russell - this is the absolutely wrong parallel, because Ossetes lived on this land for many, many centuries, and they have never been a part of Georgia till Stalin's time. Never! This is historically THEIR land, just like Central Russia is historically Russian land - MY land, where my Slavonic ancestors lived, loved and died thousand years ago or maybe even more. Thousand!... I know that this is not too easy for an American mind to grasp the concept, but please, do me the favor and try. :-)

Answering your second question, Ossetes already have their own country - North Ossetia, which is an autonomy inside Russia, with its own rights and privileges and Ossete as an official language. Nobody of them even thinks about "independent" Ossetia, separated from Russia. If Saakashvili had a little more brains, he'd quickly realize that from his first day as a President it was in his best interests to build a productive relationship with the minorities, as well as to endorse the economic and social development of these regions, already devastated by the earlier ethnic conflicts. Then probably neither Ossetes or Abkhazians would want to separate from Georgia. But, unfortunately, he was more preoccupied with different things. Under such circumstances, no "military might" is needed for Ossetes to want to reunite with their fellow Ossetes to the north...

Blessings - S.

I'm still trying to figure out when the Russians adopted democracy. In the 1950's everything we were told about Russia in America was the most horrible stuff imaginable. Some of us in America were sympathetic to communism and we had the idea that maybe some of what was being said about communism was "capatalist" (LOL, what a strange word) propaganda. Now, though, all those Americans who were strictly against Russia at that time (and it was most of us) think that the Russians have finally got the right idea bc they are adopting democracy. Could this be communist propaganda for real and even American politicians believe it now.

by the way, as I understand it, true communism purports the idea that if there is enough to go around, if everyone's basics needs are met then there won't be any war. My idea of it is that when there is not enough to go around, all of us have to learn to share what there is, live with less and there still won't be any war.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, why don't you come and join us, and the world can live as one."

Sorry if I went off the beaten track!

By the way and i know this has nothing to do with the article written here either, but for years we were engaged in a cold war with the former USSR. One of the focal points of that cold war was the wall that the "Russians built in Berlin. The wall was built or so we we thought to keep the commmunists from escaping over to west Berlin. The idea that we were supposed to accept that the Russiaqns didn't want any of the inhabitants of east Berlin to come over to our side bc once they saw how wonderful democracy was, there would be no stopping them.

Can someone now tell me the reason why we built the Mexican wall. I've tried to make an analogy between why the Russians built the wall in Berlin and why we built the wall in America, but it is just too confusing an analogy for someone of my limited intelligence to make.Can anyone help me ouit!

Poliwonk can indulge in whatever wishful thinking he desires.

It is just as likely that, when faced with serious world events, Americans will not want a blustering, hot-headed, senior citizen who has been wrong about every military issue of the last twenty years to be commander in Chief.

It is ludicrous to think that the bellicose saber-rattling that McCain enjoys is going to be thrilling to most Americans.

Let the vote-selling, philandering old guy retire.

"When elephants fight it is the grass that suffers."

African proverb

Poliwonk is just a shill on a good day, and he hasn't had many good days. Apparently visiting soldiers and parading around a Baghdad market wasting the time of the troops for a photo op makes a person CIC material.

Chechnya has never been a part of Russia except by force. They're not ethnically Russian, and they've been resisting Russian occupation since the 1600's.

One thing we dont need as a Commander-In-Chief is a quiter or someone willing to loose.

I hardly think that Russia is going to need our help in this little take-over. Seriously, Georgia is like a little bitty blip on the map and russia is HUGE.

"Chechnya has never been a part of Russia except by force. They're not ethnically Russian, and they've been resisting Russian occupation since the 1600's."

In 1600's nobody in Russia didn't even hear the word "Chechnya". Again, whence you've got this bit of data, dear Erik, only God Almighty knows. As for how Chechnya has become the part of Russia and how Chechens truly feel toward Russians, you may ask one of my friends, a recognized professor of Chechen language and literature. :-) First check your information, then voice it.

Blessings and best wishes - S.

Privet Svetlana

Thank you for your insights. As you've seen, some of us Americans think they know everything and view the world through our own eyes only. We state facts that are really just our perceptions of facts seen from afar and through our foggy lenses. And worse, we often twist the facts to fit our predetermined views. It's rather transparent really, and often quite sad, but alas, it is all too prevalent.

Luckily, not all Americans are such to speak first and then not think later.

Some of us prefer to determine the facts surrounding the situation, including the historical and cultural bases for the conflict. You're insights go a long way in helping us understand.

Spasibo. Spokoinoi nochi.

Bob C. is a disgusting individual.

Bob C. is telling the truth, Walt.

Svetlana;

I rarely quote anything from Wikkipedia because it can be a dubious source of information. And I did get some dates wrong, but the gist is correct:

History of Chechnya
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Chechen society has traditionally been organized around many autonomous local clans, called teips. Even today, many Chechens consider themselves loyal to their teip and tukkhum above all; this is one reason why it has been difficult to forge a united political front against Russia.

Contents [hide]
1 Earliest recorded history
2 Russian Empire
3 Soviet Union
4 Post-Soviet Chechnya
5 First Chechen War (1994-1996)
6 Second Chechen War and its consequences
7 References
8 See also
9 External links



[edit] Earliest recorded history
From the 7th century through the 16th century Chechens and Ingushes were mostly Christians and pagans but then the influence of Islam spread until Sufi Muslims became the majority. Later the conflicts intensified with their Christian neighbours such as Georgians and Cossacks, as well as with the Buddhist Kalmyks.


[edit] Russian Empire
Russian influence started as early as the 16th century when Ivan the Terrible founded Tarki in 1559 where the first Cossack army was stationed. The Russian Terek Cossack Host was established in lowland Chechnya in 1577 by free Cossacks resettled from Volga River Valley to the Terek River Valley. In 1783 Russia and the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti (which had been devastated by Turkish and Persian invasions) signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartli-Kakheti was to receive Russian protection.

In order to secure communications with Georgia and other regions of the Transcaucasia the Russian Empire began spreading her influence into the Caucasus mountains; It soon met with fierce resistance from the mountain tribes. In 1785, a holy war was declared on the Russians by Sheikh Mansur, who was captured in 1791 and died a few years later.

Following the incorporation of neighbouring Dagestan into the Empire in 1803-1813, Imperial Russian forces under Aleksey Yermolov began moving into highland Chechnya in 1830 to secure Russia's borders with the Ottoman Empire. In the course of the prolonged Caucasian War, the Chechens, along with many peoples of the Eastern Caucasus, united into the Caucasian Imamate and resisted fiercely, led by the Dagestani commanders Ghazi Mohammed, Gamzat-bek and Imam Shamil, but Chechnya was finally absorbed into the Russian Empire in 1859 after Shamil's capture.

The long and brutal war caused a prolonged wave of emigration until the end of the 19th century.[citation needed] Thousands of highlanders moved to Turkey and other countries of the Middle East, while Terek Cossacks and Armenians settled in Chechnya. During the Russo-Turkish War, 1877-78 the highlanders rose against Russia once more, but they were defeated again.[citation needed]

After the end of the Caucasus War, the region enjoyed a relative peace. By the end of the 19th century, major oil deposits were discovered around Gorzny (1893) which along with the arrival of the railroad (early 1890s), brought economic prosperity to the region (then administered as part of the Terek Obla

Purely biased source, Erik. It doesn't say anything, for example, about the fact that the captured Imam Shamil was treated by Russian authorities almost as a royal person, and that his sons were accepted at the Russian Emperor's court. Must I remind you how white Americans treated rebellious slaves or captured native Indian chiefs?... As for the Russo-Turkish War, 1877-78, this is precisely the subject of Professor Aliroev's current research (on which I had the privilege to offer my help as a librarian), and, again, your source doesn't say anything about the so-called "Wild Division", formed exclusively from the Caucasian mountaineers (including Chechens, Ossetes, Abkhazians and others) - which fought on Russian side like the true heroes they were. Even more Chechens remained friendly or neutral. Intermarriages between Cossaks and Caucasian people, again including Chechens, also wasn't something rare or unusual. This is not the time or place to lecture you on Russian history, but, even if we don't take all this into attention, your source doesn't confirm your claims.

Blessings - S.

Erik B, spanked by Svetlana!

Obviously any international aggression favors McCain, because it reminds us that talk is cheap and if a bigger country simply wants something, it will take it by force. It would be wonderful to think that the melodious tones of Barack Obama could keep us out of war, what the Russians have proved is that they are back on the military scene, so take that NATO!

Americans better wake up and realize that Russia and China laugh at us regarding the angst of the liberals in this country trying to "reign in" the perceived militaristic tendencies of the republicans. Should the "chosen one" Barack Obama get elected, he will be batted about the face and head by the school yard bullies of the world, along with their surrogates.

Comic book boy Clarkie really needs to lighten up on the caffeinated soda pop. Anyone who has lived part of a life knows that in this world it is survival of the fittest and the weakest succumb to the strong. Tough stuff but true. If anyone thinks America is going to maintain our freedom by being passive and giving a great speech, check out Georgia. They wanted to become part of NATO, they want freedom, Russia has other plans. Does the left want to be the ones who eat or the ones eaten?

Clarkie, is your girlfriend Lois on vacation?

Svetlana-

Given that Georgia has contributed the 3rd-largest number of committed troops in Iraq, what do you suppose would be the fate of those Troops, in this current aggression, and what is the outcome that you favour?

Dear Mike - ha-ha! :-( If Saakashvili wants to join NATO, it doesn't mean that all the Georgians want to join NATO. And if he's a democrat standing for freedom, then I'm not even a Mickie Mouse but something worse. Ethnic cleansing is NOT the trademark of a democratic leader. Do you know what is the greatest difference between Russians and Americans? Being raised in a restrictive society, we DID know that they were lying to us, and therefore learned to read between the lines, to compare data and make our own conclusions. Americans believe so much in "free" media that, as some naive children, they're ready to accept virtually everything they read as truth, not even thinking about the fact that there is NO such thing as the totally free media. Not at all! Every view reflects somebody's interests, sometimes downright egoistic, sometimes biased. Your media is openly biased towards Russia precisely because your government doesn't want free, democratic, stable Russia with its own interests and views. It wants a weak and dependent Russia. IF South Ossetes choose to separate from Georgia, it's up to them, and them only to decide, and nobody is to be blamed for that save Saakashvili himself. He did nothing positive for Georgia and Georgians in economic or social sphere, and therefore decided to play the nationalistic card. I hate to agree with Putin in anything, but he's right in one of his statements - after what happened, Ossetes themselves would hardly want to return back to Georgia. It's as clear as a day. Before using Americans' money to pay for anti-Russian policy, Bush should first check to WHOM these money go!...

Also, I am a Russian "left" and I firmly support American "left", not only for the sake of Russia, but for the sake of America itself. IF McCain wins, it can only spoil the relationship between our countries - and help the reactionaries inside the both.

Blessings and best wishes - S.

Dear Mark - you ask what I would prefer in this situation? I would prefer for Saakashvili to finally stop play a Bush' puppet and to begin to think about Georgians themselves. Instead of wasting money on troops, he should better invest into Georgian economy, education, social sphere and health care. Build new schools, new homes for the needed, new industries, new infrastructure. THESE are his direct responsibilities, and these he should attend first and foremost. But he wasn't paid for this... alas. :-(

Blessings -S.

I think they're really fighting over the Oil pipeline coming from the Caspian Sea . . ; D

Dear Paul - please, first take a geographic map and have a look. Where's Georgia? Where's South Ossetia? And where's Caspian Sea?...


Blessings - S.

Doesn't matter, Georgia's in control of the oil . .

Not at all. Georgia has no oil. Russia has.

Blessings - S.

I don't understand why Georgia would pick a fight with Russia. Georgia has 100 tanks and Russia has 23,000. It doesn't make sense to me.

Right?

Well see . .Blessings

The question is not in tanks, dear Sandi. Neither Russians nor Georgians want this war. Our relationship was always good at the best, normal at the worst. It would take a separate article only to list all the Georgians who glorified our culture, Georgians whom I love and admire. What is going on, doesn't reflect the true will and true feelings of all the nations involved. Try to think WHO is interested first and foremost in this conflict. Certainly not Russia... and I suspect not Georgia as well.

Love and hugs - S.

Sveta,

Then who? I have no idea who you mean, if not Russia and Georgia.

Who brought up Chechnya, which neighbors North Ossetia and both now are autonomous Federal states in Russia.

I thought this was all about Mc Cain and oil and why it would benefit him.

Now I see that its all about the old Persian Empire, and the Ottomans.

Oh well Svetllana does know much more of this than I, and is correct as we in the US would advance militarily against Mexico if the Mexican military advanced into California to take it back as they rightly own California.

You take care Svetlana, and thanks for the additional info

Sad as it may sound, dear Sandi, your own government. With its biased policy and its desire to control everyone and everything, regardless of such concepts as "truth", "moral" and "justice". Once for us Russians it was a shining example of freedom, but it is not anymore, even for those of us, who, like me, firmly believe in human rights and human freedom. Like I mentioned, Saakashvili is Bush's puppet and nothing more. If he were something more, he would care for his own people first.

Hugs and blessings - S.

Poliwonk, seems to be that Dmitry Medvedev, via Putin, has learned from Bush how to behave unilaterally in the world, eh?

Much like FOX News, your article is sorely lacking in basic journalistic information, like even the hint of the historical background to the Separatists civil war state that Russia is capitalizing on regarding South Ossetia's wish to secede, Russia's presence as part of a UN peace keeping contingency, Georgia's strategic value to the west due to an oil/gas line, Russia's nervousness over US-NATO missiles from Georgia pointed at it, and the strategic value of calming the Russian bear down in terms of its influence with Iran.

This is a serious problem for Georgians, Russians, Europeans and the world. But let's at least get a grip on the facts.

When people rebel there must be a reason...if everyone was treated properly, fairly,borders mean nothing.
Whenever we resort to violence, we breed more violence, versus finding a resolution all could be happy with. This group could have had its own prinicipality and lived in peace.
I think we need to revolt against any military attack and establish clear global rules for engagement.
Peace is the absence of fear.

Every several years, even Quebec has a referendum that has often come to within 1% of splitting Canada into 3 chunks of property. When I studied there in 1972, it often felt a little like North Ireland.

It is very easy to state how people should live in peace. It is also all too easy for me to understand why peace seems such a difficult thing for some human beings to grasp, when their own childhoods were so filled with familial instability.

I do believe that human beings are soft-wired for peace. But it takes 20 years of stable emotional and physical nourishment to generally produce such an adult. We've just got too many slightly insane people who have been handed the keys to their towns, states and national governments

Sveta,

How do you know Russia is not blame? How are you so certain it's the USA?

Sveta,

Is Putin/Medvedev/Russian government bad when they close down at tv station or newspaper, but good when they do this?

Dear Sandi - it's enough to look at the history of the question. I don't really think that Putin or Medvedev are absolutely blameless, or that what they do is good (in fact, politics doesn't know such black-and-white categories at all), but even Russia's critics had to recognize that it was Saakashvili, supported by the West, who's responsible for the conflict.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4498709.ece

Love and peace - S.

Just saw the Georgian woman take the bronze in Beijing for sharpshooting whilst her Russian counterpart won the silver. After the ceremony, the two hugged.

... And I hug the both!!! ;-)))))))))

Sveta,

Interesting article. There are a million of them printed today, some for and some against. The "truth" depends on who is writing it. But what I see is a gigantic army pulverizing a tiny country. They are obliterating the people of Georgia. Why so heavy handed?

I can't be so sure, looking at the news (internet news, tv news, comments from all corners) who is to blame. Of course the guilty say, "It wasn't us." Of course, the innocent say nothing because they are dead.

Meanwhile, they seek to crush us too. Sveta in her library; Sandi in her dining room. Giants fight and we are crushed. We may not even know who it was who ultimately fell on top of us.

My heart is broken and full of anguish. Why...I am not Georgian or Russian, but I am a human being. This is all wrong...every bit of it...evil. It is evil and good, locked in battle. Those led by evil seldom know they are. Those led by good know it. Or do they? This same battle goes on all over the globe-- everywhere and even in my own heart.

What can I do but pray? So I am praying for God to send a flood that wipes away every lie and every deception, leaving only the truth-- clear and obvious. What can I pray except STOP, STOP, STOP. There in the line of fire is another Sveta and another Sandi, and my little Sam and Elijah, cowering and hiding. STOP. STOP. STOP.

This is all so pointless.

I pray because I believe in God. There have been many times in my life when I could not see Him, but later I saw that He had been there and saved me. So I am hoping this time is like that.

There is a scripture that reads, "If my people, who are called by my name, humble themselves and pray, I will turn and heal their land." (Georgia/Russia is as much my land as the land I am standing on right now I figure. It's not so faraway.)

Passage 2-? ????????????? 7:14:
14? ???????? ????? ???, ??????? ????????? ?????? ????, ? ????? ????????, ? ?????? ???? ?????, ? ????????? ?? ????? ????? ?????, ?? ? ?????? ? ???? ? ????? ????? ?? ? ?????? ????? ??.

I hope this finds you in peace, Sveta. Sorry to take up so much space!

"But what I see is a gigantic army pulverizing a tiny country. They are obliterating the people of Georgia. Why so heavy handed?"

Well, dear Sestryonka, this IS an exaggeration. Nobody is going to "obliterate" Georgians - God forbid! - and I haven't heard anything about ALL our "gigantic army" intruding in historical Georgia and killing thousands of civilians - just for fun. If only such thing happened, I'd be the first to condemn it.

I appreciate your prayer and echo it. ;-) Wars are not only cruel, they're senseless.

Love and hugs - S.

And another comment - my last in this thread, since the next two weeks are going to be very busy for me. My dear American friends, I don't question your sincerity, but please keep in mind these words of one of the greatest Georgians ever, Shota Rustaveli: "Everybody consider himself a strategist when seeing the battle from far apart". Let's wait and see what happens - and pray for the best. I must stress out again and again that I have no bias here, and try to be as objective as possible. The real picture is far, far more complicated than the US or Russian media want for us to believe...

As for voting for McCain... please, do me the favor and consider the little poem/warning I wrote today:

Nazism didn't begin with war.
Nazism didn't begin with Crystal Night.
Nazism didn't begin with Holocaust
Or with concentration camps.

No! Nazism did begin with angst,
Misplaced patriotism and pride,
Promises of economic growth
And promotion of "family values" -

EVERYTHING ELSE CAME LATER...

Blessings and best wishes - S.

P.s. If someone has any other questions, please address them to me personally, and I'll try to respond to the best of my abilities. I wouldn't be on Gather much.

"Clark, the last UN Resolution, threatened serious consequences, which while not explicitly written, was understood at the time to be military action."

Conveniently, you seem to have simply brushed aside the facts that:

A) There WAS NO UN AUTHORIZATION FOR MILITARY ACTION AGAINST IRAQ, and
B) Iraq was FULLY COMPLYING WITH ALL UN DEMANDS

Ooops. Those pesky fact thingys rear their ugly head once again, huh?




"As far as the Commander In Chief issue goes. Every poll shows that John McCain leads in experience, and effectiveness as CIC."

Only because the "liberal media" has refused to expose his REAL military background, and instead has opted to allow him free pass on inventing his own persona of that rather unimpressive period of his life.


And again, the bottom line to this latest world tragedy is that it is merely the extension of the disastrously failed Bush/McCain doctrine of kill first, ignore world opinion, and ask questions much, much only if absolutely necessary.

Russia is flexing its muscles in order to grab oil and gas, just exactly as Bush/McCain taught them to do. Soon, China may well do the same, if we attack Iran. The neocons have chosen permenent world war in order to "secure oil," rather than focus on renewable, alternative sources of energy and conservation methods. An abysmal, tragic failure of judgement and policy.

"Obviously any international aggression favors McCain, because it reminds us that talk is cheap and if a bigger country simply wants something, it will take it by force..."

Kay must have misread her astrological "guidance" if she believed that this was "a good day to make a laughable case for hot-headed senior citizens without a clue."


The Russians have seen this "great power" of a nation stare down the whole world on a reckless course of naked aggression. And no amount of protest mattered.

It was no surprise that the Chinese and Russians practically laughed at the effete tsk-tsks from the Iraq-hobbled Bush.

In reference to Clark Kent's well-informed comments, one must note that the UN agency investigating the alleged WMD in Iraq was precisely correct about when they had been created, and when they were destroyed.

The first thing John Bolton, the "kiss-up, kick down" world-class toadie, tried to do as UN ambassador was to eliminate the UN's verification arm.

No one is going to try and use "facts" against ignorant, reason-denying, faith-based fundamentalists like Bush and Company.

'Interesting article. There are a million of them printed today, some for and some against. The "truth" depends on who is writing it. But what I see is a gigantic army pulverizing a tiny country. They are obliterating the people of Georgia. Why so heavy handed? '

Sandi, the US military, until Bush felt that if the US went to war, that we should go to war with overwhelming odds for a quick fight. It appears that Russia has those same thoughts. If you go to war, one should go with overwhelming odds.

The issue in Georgia (once an integral part of the Silk Trail) is just the tip of the iceberg of what never really got resolved in Europe and elsewhere with WW II. After the shock of war and terror, and the redrawing of some boundaries, people slowly could only focus on rebuilding their lives. NATO and the UN were created in the hopes of keeping old disputes from again flaring into war, and the EC (EU) came about as a way to be more collective, and hence stronger, with Europe's economy. But if we look at Europe very honestly, as I've had to very sadly do with my native Denmark, Europe has a huge lesson to learn from America - despite its errors with the Mexican workers - about how to bridge cultural chasms.

America is no saint in the matter. But it is those harsh lessons of history from which Europe could learn. I was a college student in Europe, and both Canada and the US back in the days of America coming out of segregation and Canada coming to the edge of a civil war with Quebec at the hight of the Cold War (with the Pentagon having drawn up plans to invade and occupy Canada). But all those issues the US has gone through, including the Civil War - its moment of freedom for African-Americans, followed by an almost worse state of affairs after Reconstruction - to now with Islam being less of an issue for the average American than it is for even the most Muslim of nations, while individual fundamental freedoms are being threatened by the interests of multinational corporations who thrive on the delusional conflicts inherent in Bush's war on terror.

All that and still America can *sensibly* debate any issue under the sun with candidates for president who hold diametrically opposite POVs.

Europe has several dozen regions brewing with xenophobia at best. If you go to those regions, you learn that it actually is racism. If any of those regions lose more economic stability, they are primed to become the flashpoints of so many previous wars. In the drama of history books, it goes back to the efforts of a *sort-of Christian* Roman Empire seeking to conquer the tribes of Europe and bring their gold and playthings back to Rome.

And it has always been easier to point the finger at a strange stranger for one's own hurts or lack, and the Caesars of 200- 300 CE certainly knew that, as did Hitler, as did any number of regents and popes/bishops between that last Caesar and the last dictator to be brought before the Hague. A smart politician knows that as he ferments xenophobia. It is a bit like a dysfunctional family where the father must control everything. The easiest way to do that is to isolate the family members.

Even fairy tale Denmark is primed to become one of those states that would capitulate to old xenophobia were nature or the economy to further react against exploitation.

I don't think this kind of news benefits anyone.

"Are they near Atlanta yet? If not who the hell are we to say a word?"

We are America and have a lot of influence in world politics. Take your head out of your ass a look around sometime ;)

We in the western world are in the favour of South Ossetia breaking away from Georgia and Russian are backing the break up in the name of freedom. I believe it was only a month back that we were on opposite sides when Kosovo was breaking up from Serbia.. the western nations backed Kosovo & Russia backed Serbia.

The western nations backed freedom while Russia backed stability, so why the reversal? The truth is neither care abt freedom or democracy.. each party backs what's beneficial to them politically.

In a month's time we changed our stance on separation when it does not help us politically... I think this is the start of things.. what is our stance going to b on Kashmir, Brazil, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, China etc.... it's a recipe for disaster.

Dear Svetlana-

Please accept my humble opinion on this issue.

I submit, Svetlana, that you dispute the harshness of Russia’s invasion of Georgia because you are resentful of the Sovereignty of Georgia, which was a separate “state” with their own separate Nationality, language, and ( I believe ) alphabet, but had been annexed by Stalin (Yukashvili, who was Georgian, but had changed his name to appear more “Russian”) in the last Century. You resent them because of their pro-Western, pro-Freedom leader, who was educated in the United States. You prefer and choose to refer to him as a “puppet” of the United States; however, he merely prefers freedom from Russia, (in much the same way that you prefer a Leftist ideology to that of the Georgian leader, Saakashvili), while they do not. Your Leftist view of the West, and of the United States, betrays your motive.

In addition, in retaliation for Kosovo’s secession from Serbia, Russia is willing to enable and assist Ossetia to secede from Georgia. It is NOT because they care for the future of the Ossetians; but because they resent the Sovereignty of Georgia, and desire to “weaken” them, and see them “broken up” in much the same way.

Yes, Svetlana, my Russian friend explained the situation in much the same way to me. Thanks for the inside info here.

To dismiss this invasion as an attempt to assist the pro-Russian in Ossetia is to be disingenuous. Let us remember that Georgia has been under a form of "occupation" recently, and a "cease-fire" has been dispatched to Moscow. The fact that the Russian has taken Gorli, well beyond the borders of Ossetia, may indicate that Putin has “other” things on his mind…

Indeed, Russell; to me, as well. The Sudetanland comes to mind...

Mark-John and Russell K,
In case you haven't noticed, Svetlana has pretty much already said dusvedonya (phonetic spelling for: good bye). "It don't matter to me," because I have always been known to be one who sticks things out and hangs around, after everyone else has gone and everything is over. You don't want to challenge me for top spot for that position, do you?

OK, there are some who believe that when a man/woman is down, you step on them. There are some who believe with regard to the same thing that you help a man or a woman up.

I've always thought along the lines of helping someone up when they are down, but unfortunately life turned out to be a little tougher then I expected it to be, given the comfort and security of my middle class Amerikan upbringing. So, although, I will go out of my way to help someone up who is down and although I think it is the right thing to do, I can not do it all time and occasionally I will not even try to do it.

There is an expression that you have probably heard, if you are American. It doesn't mean much to too many Americans, because of the kind of people to whom it is attributed, but those people are proud of it and it has always meant a lot to me. It's not the one that Bruce Springsteen sings about though, even though it sounds similiar; the meaning of it is no where near the same. To me the more genuine saying, the one I'm talking about is the one that goes, "born to lose," not the other one that most people are more familiar with.

My point is, no one is all of anything or all of anything else. So sometimes we will help someone who is down and sometimes we will step on them so they can't get up. I think there is no one who knows this sort of thing better then Americans. That's part of who we are as a people. So, I know I'm meandering verbally, but I need to do that right now. I can't just connect the dots, all at once, before I really even know who I'm talking to, but just because we were born to lose, doesn't mean we can't or won't try to win. We always put up the best fight we can, it's just that there is no clear cut winner in any fight, fighting makes no sense to beginh with, nothing is ever accomplished by it except possibly that sometimes it reasserts our faith in ourselves as human beings and that gives us the strength to go on.

yeah, it was just sheer coincidence this many Russians troops/ships/armor happened to be nearby...

Georgia screwed up and the Bear is going to eat them up.

I posted on another article on this subject and just saw this one.
I am so sorry to have read the tone of the comments of Svetlana here on the sad events in Georgia. I am sorry because it is a person we might have reasonably expected objective information from. It rings of speaking with forked tongue, veiled undertones ... a Russian lady, living in Russia, guising as one who knows everything about America AND Russia, speaking profusely and openly about it, yet curtly reminding Americans to stay out of Russian business. Double standards?
Svet speaks of Saakashrili as being a puppet of Bush, American naivety, and condones the Russian's bringing in the 58th Army to Georgia. The same army that crushed Chechnya in 1994.
Svet asks, "Must I remind you most loudly about Kosovo and Iraq?" Yes, please do, then explain why.
Svet appears to be a keen but negative observer, from afar, of American politics, and campaigns strongly against McCain, calling him a "Russophobe." Then she asks, "Please leave to a native Russian to decide ....." The response to that is, "Same to ya', Svet."
Svet says: "Russia not interested in this conflict..." Well, they were interested enough to send in an army and kill hundreds, maybe thousands when it's all over.
Then Svet says: "The American government with its biased policy and its desire to control everyone and everything..." Aha. True colors and political persuasion coming through a little more clearly now. Not exactly the sweet little lady that ends each post with a blessing.
Svet: "I'd be the first to condemm it." Start condemning...the Russians sent in their army ... killing many.
Svet: "I have no bias here...." Followed by a warning NOT to vote for McCain with a Nazi poem. Nope, no bias there, Svet.
Svet: "...Every Russian already knows - that US government promotes doubles standards..." and "If Saakashrili had a little more brain."
He had enough brain to try to get into NATO, which the Russians fought at every turn.
Svet: "As for how Chechnya has become the part of Russia...." For the how and why of that, in todays world, flash back to 1994. The Russian army either killed, or caused 1.3 million Chechnyans to flee their country, and the ensuing Russian brutality of looting, burning homes, torturing and executing those who resisted. The UN condemned Russia for "Serious Human Rights Violations" against Chechnya.
The reason for both Russian attacks is "OIL." Pure and simple. Both places sit on oil. But not just the oil...even more important...the Russians need control over energy pipeline routes from Central Asia and the Caspian Sea for their supply of oil.
Svet says: "Purely biased source..." Referring to the Wikipedia encyclopedia as a biased source?????
Then Svet says: (again and again) "Americans are naive children..." "America wants a weak and dependent Russia...." ..."If McCain wins, it can only spoil the relationship between our countries." Svet, how could you possibly know this ... and how would a McCain win spoil the relationship between our countries?
This is sad, biased commentary from a lady in Russia expoundin on everything in America, American politics and the upcoming election, as an informed correspondent/prophet of some sort. God only knows the source of the Mis-information, not only about the USA, but questionable commentary about Russia.

Here's a 10 for you!! Thank you for posting this to the Gimme 10!!! Group

 

Sure why wouldnt McCain benifit? I would rather have someone who has been in Washington politics for more than 4 yrs to handle whats going on in the world. Obama? Are you kidding me? Hes to green and wet with 4yrs in Washington, then again we are weak when it comes to being strong so I guess he would be perfect for us.

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"America would NEVER invade another country and keep the land as part of its territory" HEY POLLIWONK! EVER HEARD OF TEXAS??

Ole Dubya is so worried about this he's gone to Crawford to pout. I think the horse needs shoeing or the buckleberry are ripe. Can't let things like a little ole war interfere with vacation time, despite what we promised that Shaskasvilly fella.

Neo-con fantasies of world dominion have come to a rude halt. The Russians and their own brand of "ethnic cleansers" are going to piss all over Georgia and take their sweet time about it too. THe longer they dawdle, creep from one town to the next, the more the true impotence of Bush oil policy becomes apparent. We can have all the stealth fighters, cruise missiles and satellite survilence of Buck Rogers and it won't matter a whit. To insure the "territorial integrity" of Georgia will require boots on the ground, which cannot be done under any fantastic interpretation of "war powers" and will never get past Congress or the people. Bush said today "spheres of influence" are not relevent in today's world. So why are we pushing American bases up to the border of Russia?? As it is proven the real American agenda of seizing Middle Eastern oil takes priority over the fate of former Soviet Bloc nations all the talk of "democracy" and "self-determination" will fade and Russia will assume her ancient role as master of the east and those nations will cope. This is where rhetoric meets reality and reality wins.

And McCain demostrates his incompetence by chest thumping to entertain the right wing gun bangers. He well knows we have overstreched and been bitten. We WILL be bit again by Russia AND China. Get used to it.

When a man takes off his shoe in a public assembly and says he will bury us, beating his shoe on the podium in front of which he is talking to make his point, I don't care what he is saying anymore, or who he is talking to, this is just unacceptable in civilized society.

peace and love,
svetlana,
let your love lites shine