God is one. One also is the mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all. 1 Tim 2:5-6
See. Here is one reason why we should write our own scriptures. How many believe the central tenant of Christianity? Namely that God demanded a human sacrifice to affect a reconciliation with mankind? (Do we want to believe in a God that demands human sacrifice?) That mankind, until Jesus died, was alienated from God, and Jesus, by dying on the cross, a death he freely chose (as we recite in church), ransomed all mankind. Paid the price. Brought about reconciliation. Bought us. Bought us out of slavery. (Metaphor for what? ) Set us free. Opened the door to a bright future.
How many believe that direct connection with God is impossible? That one needs a mediator between oneself and God? As if God didn’t create each of us individually. Or rather, as if God isn’t creating each of us individually as we speak. As if we don’t have a dollop of divinity, God’s spirit residing in us.
You know, I think the central problem is God’s invisibility. God is not available to the senses. No image, no vision, no audio, no sound, no smell no touch, no nothing. God is outside ordinary experience. So whenever we aim our language at God, we miss. Mostly we don’t meditate. We don’t experience God beyond words and images. So a statement that implies we need a mediator we find largely acceptable. We can’t see God, so we search for someone who can.
And in the general population of humankind, in every age, we have a few gifted people who can see God. OK maybe not in the ordinary way, with eyes, photons impinging on ocular receptors sending signals to the brain, but rather with some sixth sense, some special ability to connect with God. To see the evidence in ordinary events that God is involved. To see all creation groaning and moving forward under the urging of God’s love and care and attention.
One problem is we have an egalitarian view of human nature. As in all people are created equal. And that is clearly not the case. Some of us are color blind. Try explaining the difference between green and blue to such a person. Try explaining that a person can see that God is manifested in love between man and woman, or between man and man, between mother and child ... rather than missing it all, thinking this is all ordinary, this us just the way things are.
What do we want from God anyway? There’s a question for a discussion group. There’s a question with as many answers as there are people.
What do I want from God? Wait. Let me think. Let me count the ways. I would like to be able to contact God whenever I want and come away edified. Feeling good. Braced and supported for whatever comes next in my pilgrimage, no matter how dismal the circumstances. Or, in pleasant seasons, a sense of peace, and the ability to sense God in the beauty of all things and that everything is moving forward, not just forward in time, not just continuing in existence, but increasing, improving, moving onward and upward, evolving, becoming better. A whole symphony of creation and redemption.
Those are God’s two jobs: creation and redemption. We tend to slight the creation part. We are people who find God in the foxhole. On the battlefield. On th deathbed. In misery. In degradation. In trying straits. We tie ourselves in knots trying to understand God. Why do bad things happen to good people we ask. Why is there so much misery? Why do we have to get sick and die? Maybe it’s because, for many people, that’s the only way God can get their attention.
Flash to the other side. Beautiful day. Walking through a meadow. Through sun dappled parkland. Gazing on mountains. Breathing clean air. Hearing the roar of the ocean. Circumstances of beauty and awe which transport us. Happy times with people gathered around to sing and dance and play. Children squealing. Young lovers drawing close, exploring erotic love. News of scientific discoveries. New products on the market. Worldwide flow of information. Global awareness. Global empathy for disaster victims. Global horror at terrorism. Global dialog. You are too rich. You are immoral. You are too dominant. We who suffer and keep our women hidden behind walls and veils are connected to God. Masses of stardust evolving and spinning, drawing closer together, eventually igniting. Warming the planets. Pushing forward and upward.
Where is it all going? What will it look like when we get there?
We are both going and there already. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The medium is the message. The traveling is the arriving. We go from joy to joy. Singing and dancing. Making the trip a time of merriment. Of feeling good. Of good self image. Of high self esteem. Of affirmation and love.
Wait. Take off those rose glasses. What do we want of God? This vision maybe. The ability to see things this way. Full of hope. OK. Some don’t go this way. There is evil and violence in the world. And dismal circumstances. I can imagine a person connected to God in dismal circumstances. For some this is their native place. This is wherefrom they come and where they live. Others put themselves there for God’s sake. For love of humanity. Feeling called to sacrifice themselves. They model on Jesus. Some stand in the breach. To catch spears. To take the violence so that others won’t have to.
Some go about trying to fix broken self images. Teach love. Give the experience of love to those who have never had it. Which might change a person’s life. Might get through to his or her core. You are loved. God sent me to love you. To help with your broken self esteem. You poor person, dying in the streets. And you, too, who are normally OK, but who have relapses. Who get depressed, who do not do well day to day. Whose self image fluctuates. Daily affirmation. Support. Mundane things. Ordinary life. Times between peak experience. Slogging times.
What do we want of God? The ability to put a bright face on the mundane. On ordinary life. The vision to see God at work when there is no tangible evidence. Sunshine in darkness. So we can bloom where we are planted.
You know, I think that would be enough.
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Comments: 24
Thanks for posting this to my group - blessings and best wishes in abundance - S.
In a material universe, matter does what it does which includes dissolution, death, and for beings with consciousness, the suffering that goes with that. Humans develop ego to (among other uses) control that aspect of matter. Human violence even against other humans results as an expression of that drive to control the death-side of materiality. Violence says "You must be controlled or even die so that I can be free to live." This includes, I think, even the violence we do to aspects of ourselves.
So violence is human resistance to the reality of the material universe. This resistance causes what we call suffering which is different from simple pain because pain is matter's simple response to dissolution--but suffering is ego's reaction to loss.
Mercy and compassion are acceptance of the material universe in all its aspects. If we say that God is that ultimate creative consciousness/Being that spun forth materiality, is within it and beyond it -- then the responsibility of consciousness in the material universe is mercy towards all that dissolves, all that dies. It is done by surrender rather than by violence. If God seems unmerciful, it is because human consciousness has not permitted God to express that mercy. We are responsible for the mercy or lack of mercy in the world.
In the language of fellow Gatherer, Richard Maffei, we must live in Existential Wonder. This precludes judgment of the processes of materiality and intelligent surrender to the totality of Being. The surrender is not a collapse or giving in, but an opening to the expression in the world (through each individual and human system) of the magnanimity of the Divine. Then Mercy will be experienced even in the experience of death, because we will understand that materiality is in a constant process of transformation.
Of course we are young in this process. Mercy expands as ego diminishes and is replaced by Existential Wonder.
Christin
Mercy? The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as a gentle rain from heaven upon those beneath. It is twice blest. It blesseth him that gives and him that gets. Shylock have mercy. Don’t extract that pound of flesh.
Mercy? God have mercy. God be nice. Be nice to me. Take away this pain of dissolution.
What hey? Take away pain. Take away suffering. Mercy linked with suffering. Why yes, I guess so. Mercy is a divine pain killer. A drug.
Alas, animals have this drug. Death is painless. Ever read about a kid (Lewis Thomas) rescuing little birds from the jaws of a pet cat. Not a mark or scratch on the little thing. Still it always dies. God’s anesthetic. Shock. Time to go. Time to check out. Get ready for the fangs. Oops, there goes all feeling. You are already dead. You won’t feel the blood oozing out.
When I die please bury me in my compost pile. Where I will do some good. You can say he didn’t amount to much, but hey, he made good compost. Feast little worms.
Yes the material world decomposes. Some scientists call it entropy. And it is the third law of thermodynamics: Die entropie streibt ein maximum zu. Entropy strives to a maximum. Entropy keeps increasing. Disorder keeps increasing. And the opposing force, the organizing force, is life. Those little DNA molecules spinning out proteins, each folded nicely and having signaling sites and activation sites for doing its thing. The whole organism takes in food and gives out feces and urine. Uses energy that ultimately came from the sun, but got translated into leaves and fruits and seeds first and then meat. We make meat and we eat meat. We eat meat and we are meat. We breath in air and exhale giving back all but 20% of its oxygen. Ah oxygen. Ah air. Those same molecules that Jesus breathed. And Aristotle. Each of us organisms breathing each others exhaust. Yes it is marvelous to think about. We have at least this in common with Jesus. We are organizing matter. We carry some around. And for what? AMDG. Ad Majorem Dei Gloria. All for the honor and glory of God. Because we are there on the bleeding edge, doing God’s work, creating and redeeming. Until we die. Which we also have in common with Jesus and Aristotle. Was is our life? Did we own it? Or was it just on loan. Ours for a while. But creation persists. Life goes on. We participate in a process. We participate in everlasting life. We participate in eternity. And, if intentionally, we gain great joy in the process.
Christin, I hope your friend finds comfort in your words. I find comfort in my compost pile, though I know I am destined for it. I was gathering up leaves for it just this week. I love the work. I love seeing dead things turn into marvelous, clean, black compost. So essential to future generations. And where is mercy in all this. Kindness. God be good to me a sinner. And to see the tender green shoots of next year. The garden will be glorious. I am working on it even now. A hedge of blackberries and raspberries.
My metaphors have gotten out of control. Mercy. Compost. Pain. What is real and what metaphor. Some things are surely both.
Thank you for reading my stuff. Your words are always kind. In this case, a little dense. But I know I must parse them. They always contain nuggets.
Cheers.
Jim
I have learned so much from ACIM and a lot of other sources I have been reading over the past 10 years. I am so very grateful to All There Is!!
Love forever, peace, harmony, and joy too!
Thanks for reading and commenting. I think we are mostly on the same page. I surfed on ACIM. You have expanded my horizons. I was unaware.
I do have one quibble. You say our thoughts create our reality. I suspect there is some reality out there that our thoughts did not create. In fact, I believe in that reality. And that it influences our reality. Influences our thoughts. But you make a good point. We are in some sense sovereign. We get to choose how to react to reality. We get to choose what attitude to have. We don’t, alas, have much control of our feelings. Anger comes sometimes unbidden. But we get to decide what to do about it. How to react. We can turn the other cheek or we can react in kind.
I think that we can get to a state where joy persists. Getting there entails attuning to God and aligning with God’s work of creation and redemption in our lives. Essentially deciding to do God’s work. God needs us. We create and redeem ourselves and each other.
Cheers.
Jim
Thank you for sharing your views.
Thanks for reading and commenting. You and I are at a different place in the divine scheme of things. But the wheel is still in spin. I keep checking in on myself every so often to see what I really really believe. It changes. When I was a child, I believed as a child. But now I am am a man. My beliefs have changed. And they keep on changing. God is still working on me. I am a work in progress. Maybe you are too. Go with God.
Cheers
Jim
Here is a website that might interest you, talking on the topic. Yes, I agree we are in a different place in our beliefs. I understand change. I have changed over the years and some of my theology has changed etc. But God does not change..Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." The word of God is lasting and true.
Yes I am a work in progress, I will be until the day I meet my Savior face to face! He is drawing me closer to Himself, helping me turn from sin etc. But one thing that will not change in me is the Truth of the Gospel message... That Christ died for my sins, taking the wrath that I deserve to bring Himself glory and His Father, and so that I will one day be with Him forever. There is only one way to Him, to eternity in heaven. Believing in His word. I say this with compassion and understanding our differences. I will pray for you as you go on your journey figuring out what you believe. I encourage you to consider where you will spend eternity (I say this with compassion, not judgment). Check out the site, It begins with someone who I think you would agree with some. Have a nice day!
Athiest Central. There's a phrase. And a rough disguise for a christian site.
Thanks for your comment. Talking with you is fun.
I did key on one of your statements. One with which I agree actually. God does not change. Actually, who knows whether God changes? Still, I tend to believe that God does not change. And things like, if you think you are more distant from God than you once were, guess who moved.
Many Christians have smug confidence that they alone possess truth about God. Actually, we know only a tiny fraction of God. We humans have little pea brains. Mostly we speculate. We experience God, who is beyond words, who is beyond our senses, and we use language to describe the experience and to speculate on the nature of God. I believe that the full deposit of revelation about God did not end with the close of New Testament times. With the composition of the last book of the Bible. (BTW, which book was written last, do you know? I know the last gospel was about 90 years after Jesus, whether his birth or death I do not know. Some of the letters could have been later than that.)
I believe that we experience God today. You and I. Perhaps as we speak. And that those experiences of God are not less valid than the experiences of people in ancient times.
God doesn’t change, but our notions of God change. And our notions are all we have. We do not know God as God is. We just have our best guess. And all that legacy wisdom from the bible and elsewhere.
Alas, for us humans, God can remain the same yet our notions of God can change. And in fact change all the time. If we are static in our beliefs, we are not trying hard enough. We are not growing. We have permission to say when something simply does not make sense.
We know a lot more than those ancient people who wrote the bible. What would they have written if they had an inkling of just how big the universe is. Would they think of heaven as up if they knew about outer space? If they knew that our planet is tiny and unremarkable, would they think of God as creator, spinning stardust into planets in remote parts of the universe? Hard to reconcile that notion of God with a man with a white beard and acute hearing above the clouds who sits there listening to prayers surrounded by legions of angels to do his bidding in answering them.
But I digress. And it is so easy to do. So many aspects of God and the right relationship with God to think about. It could be a life long project. And it ought to be.
Cheers.
Jim
Now no mortal can know the supernal nature of God, but it is indeed given to mortal flesh to know the 'humanity' of God, insofar as it can be seen in Jesus- and indeed, in Christians themselves. Now is God interested in the state of our knowledge of the stars and planets, or in anything scientific? He is surely interested in how spouses treat spouses, in how parents treat children, in how children treat parents, in how employers treat employees, in how TV advertisers treat TV watchers, in how supermarkets treat customers- in all human relationships. These are things that have not been changed one whit by the advance of knowledge. It is where humanity is as challenged as ever, and knows more about God than it wants to. People may well have pea-size brains in comparison to God, but they know enough to have bad consciences. And that is where Jesus, saviour of the conscience- that is eternal, in the Biblical perspective- rescues us, if we want to be rescued. Stars and planets will pass away, but the eternal conscience must be quieted, and only the Christian message will quiet it.
Good to have you in the conversation. And flattering. I just love having conversations with relative strangers about what really matters. Last night I passed up an opportunity to do a small group session in my church because my wife said I’d be disruptive. I’d just stir up trouble with my unconventional beliefs. So the only chance I have to speak with people about my beliefs is here. So welcome. Welcome.
The line I want to pick on is that thing about Christians believing that they alone possess truth about God. Do you really mean this? Nobody else has a clue? Christians are the sole possessors of truth about God?
What about the Jews? To some extent, the truth Christians have about God is also Jewish. We share the largest part of our respective bibles. Unless Christians only recognize the new testament as the Bible, which I don’t believe is the case. The Old testament, which is the Jewish bible, is bigger. Which, if our faiths are bible based, means we have more in common with the Jews than we have different.
Oh wait. And what about Moslems? They accept the whole bible. And they go beyond with their kor’an. They build on Christianity. They know about Abraham and Jesus and Paul. As do Mormons. Would you say that none of these groups has any truth about God?
And to broaden the point, what is your opinion about goodness? Are Christian people the sole possessors of goodness? Do you have to be Christian to be good? What do you make of, oh let’s say Ghandi? Not good? Not holy? Are all non-Christians damned?
In my pilgrimage, one of the things that gave me pause, that made me ponder, was when I saw a person I knew to be a sinner (something about having sex with a married woman, another man’s wife) open his wallet and give to a good cause. How can sinners do good things? As far as I could detect, there was no hypocrisy here. There was no intent to appear good. And you see sinners doing good all the time. They just do these good things because that is who they are. You don’t get good fruit from evil trees. You judge a tree by its fruit. Maybe this whole sin and judgement thing is more complex than we thought.
Wait. While I am at it, do you have any opinions about the various sects of Christianity? Do some possess more truth about God than others? Evangelicals vs Catholics for instance.
My answers to these questions are probably different from yours. But I’m eager to hear yours.
Cheers
Jim
No, I don't think that Christians are alone in possessing truth, knowing about God. But I think they are alone in 'knowing' God, in knowing his will in particular situations, and, while they should not trumpet this belief, they cannot fail to admit it, also. You are right that Jews and Christians share much Scripture, and they agree on very much. But the issues on which they differ are more basic than the issues on which they agree. The Tanakh/Old Testament can be usefully said, by either party, to concern Problem, Promise and Prophecy (a neat little aide-memoire?). The problem is that of universal sin, the promise is of a messiah to overcome the problem, and prophecy allows that messiah to be identified. Now, in the Christian perspective, pending the arrival of the messiah, the problem was to be shown to be intractable by law- Mosaic Law, to be exact. This made clear that law was no solution to sin, not even in the short term. Yes, the OT is bigger, but only because the (tedious?) failure of Law was to be made clear beyond a peradventure. The long history of the disastrous failures of Israelites and Jews is provided to illustrate that. But in the Jewish perspective, that failure is only relative, and the messiah will not alter Mosaic Law, as Jesus is perceived to have done. So what Christians take to be a short-term expedient, at best, Jews regard as substantially 'the real deal'. And the difference is actually fundamental at theological level, because Christians believe, as Paul wrote, that nobody can be justified, accounted acceptable, by doing works, but only by faith in the Messiah, who was Jesus of Nazareth when on earth. Of course, Jews say that he did not fulfil the prophesied requirements, or even that he did not exist, and that mankind cannot be justified by faith, but by obedience to the Torah. In this they tend to forget that Abraham was said to be justified by faith, not by the Law.
As do Muslims, except that they have another law. Muslims agree that Jesus existed, but they likewise deny that justification is by faith in him, because they deny that he died to save us from our bad consciences. Like Jews, they say that we can be justified by works. These are not the works that Moses entailed, but they are works (praying, fasting etc.) nonetheless. It's not really true that Muslims believe in the Bible in any meaningful way. They say that parts of the OT (enormous parts, actually) are not genuine; what remains they often interpret very differently from either Jew or Christian. They say that Jesus was a prophet, but if one deletes from the gospels what they disagree with, one is left with very little indeed, and even that would look no different from what one might read in the Baghavad Gita. (No Christian can deny that Hinduism contains truth, tho', to be honest, much of this post-dates and may have been derived from the OT.) And of course Muslims reject the rest of the NT completely, and say that there was an 'injil', the real testament, that nobody can find any trace of. Anyone could make up that sort of thing. The sober fact is that, under theological analysis, Islam has nothing to do with either Judaism or Christianity, except in opposition to both, particularly Christianity. In fact, it seems to some that the only distinctive mark of the Islamic religion, its only purpose, is to deny another.
In the end, it has to be admitted, surely, that there is only one Abrahamic faith, because there was only one Abraham. The Christian theologian might say that Jews have made a blind alley into a major route, while Muslims, like the Ishmael through whom they claim descendancy, wander in a wilderness, one of their own imagination.
You ask about Catholicism. What I am going to write now is unfashionable, but imv is theologically sound. I don't want to upset anyone, but otoh it is essential to tell the truth as one sees it. The Reformation was the 're-discovery' of the faith that justifies, as distinct from the medieval view that regular confession, attendance at Mass, alms-giving, fasting and the like would, or rather could, win salvation. So for the Protestant, Catholicism must, regretfully, be classified with Judaism and Islam as being a 'works-justifying' religion. There are indeed Protestant missions to Catholics in predominantly Catholic countries to help people out of this endless search for justification.
Are all non-Christians damned? The criterion is surely, "What do I think of Christ?" If we have heard of Christ and the gospel, and have rejected him and it, there can be no expectancy of anything but rejection by Christ. However, there have been many in history who have heard of Christ, but not heard the gospel, and on the last day, when they see Christ as he actually is, they may welcome him, and be saved. I wouldn't like to comment about individuals such as Gandhi. God will be his judge, though it seems very unlikely to me that a highly educated person in the modern age, when Bibles are available in many translations, can be unaware of the challenge that Jesus presents to each of us, and such persons must either accept or reject him.
The man having sex with another man’s wife, who opens his wallet for a good cause, does indeed seem like a paradox, and it does happen. But happily married people also give to good causes, and often generously, yet they may deny Christianity entirely. The Christian pov is this: if one is really 'good', if one has one's heart in the right place, one will accept the one who is really, completely good, Jesus. One might give generously deliberately in order to show others that Jesus is not the only source of goodness- which of course must be a very evil motive. One may give in order to make Christian giving unnecessary. One can do 'good' things for a whole range of tawdry motives- 'the good is the enemy of the best,' they say. God looks on the heart, and he says that the litmus test of a good heart is acceptance of Jesus, and no amount of good works, as the Pharisees liked to demonstrate, will avail if Jesus is not accepted, and genuinely, too.
It's of course true that good trees don't give bad fruit, but one has to scrutinise fruit carefully, and the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the appearance. Yesterday I opened a perfect-looking orange (the last one, of course :) ), but part of it was black with rot. None of the others had been less than superb. Even the 'good' part of this one tasted awful. Quite a parable, I thought, because we each have to admit that we are like that last orange if God is to do anything with us. After all, Jesus said that he came for sinners, not the righteous.
Kind regards,
Miles
So Christians "are alone in 'knowing' God, in knowing his will in particular situations." Non Christians can’t connect with God, can’t know his will in particular situations. And this is not smug belief that they are right and everybody else not. And it’s not just non-Christians. Some stripes of Christians, e.g., Catholics, don’t know.
I suspect that when you look around in your own denomination, in your own community, you can spot people you suspect also don’t know. There are damn few of us who have figured out how to connect with God. Just me and thee. And just recently ...
You’ve read or at least heard of Poe’s short story “A Cask of Amontillado”. Grisly story about payback for insult. The offender was bricked up in a cellar. Taken to the cellar on the pretext of searching for a cask of Amontillado. Readers squirm imagining themselves enduring the slow death of suffocation or thirst of a body bricked off from the world. Screams for help being ineffectual, ending on the bricks that surround them.
For some reason this came to mind in reflecting on your dismissal of Jews and Moslems and Catholics. One brick for Judaism. One for Islam. One for Catholicism. Inside is only purity of belief. Inside is the only place on earth where true belief, where truth exists. It is a tinier and tinier circle. Oh yes, your arms are open wide to welcome everyone. Come on in. The only requirement is that you believe as I do. That you admit that there is no other path to God. No other salvation.
You are certainly orthodox in your beliefs. You can cite a long tradition. Christians have long believed that they were right and everyone else was wrong. But so do the other denominations. We all circle our wagons. And it’s all orthodox. Fully certified.
Alas, I must refuse your welcome. I believe I connect with God. God of love and goodness and creation and redemption. God of evolution. (Oops, sorry. I bet you take umbrage at that. And that you have a standard response. But, hey. What if evolution is just how God creates? It’s a neat way out of doctrinal difficulties.) God who created the laws of physics and chemistry. God who operates within those laws. God who pushes creation forward. God who promotes love and affirmation and harmony. I believe that creation is ongoing. That the deposit of faith did not end with Jesus or shortly thereafter. God is still at work in this world. And in other worlds. And there are likely many. The universe is larger than we previously imagined. Much larger than the scripture writers imagined. And God is much larger than we imagined too. We, it turns out, are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
Where will Christianity go? Will Christians persist in believing that God favored one tiny tribe on one tiny planet at one point in time. That the whole plan of salvation turns on one man. That if salvation is to come to the universe, Christians will have to make it happen. We will need to send missionaries on our space missions, as earlier generations sent missionaries on their wooden sailing ships of conquest and exploration. As we thinking animals develop further technology and further science, and eventually venture forth from this planet and find other self conscious creatures, we will have to take the gospel with us. Let me tell you about a man from our planet. God, for some reason, is bringing salvation to the universe through this one man.
Well, we have a little work to do on this planet first. Or, when the technology comes, competing messages may go forth. What if the Chinese get the technology first? What missionary will they send? You don’t want to imagine Islamic and Christian and Jewish and Hindu missionaries competing in proselytizing the universe. First we will need to Christianize this planet. Get everyone bricked in. Get us all marching along, believing the same thing.
The track record hasn’t been all that good so far. It would seem that instead of getting closer, we have been fracturing. I have heard sad stories of congregations splitting over disagreements. Many times it is a disagreement over the pastor. Sometimes it is over doctrine.
But guys like you, who have undiluted truth, have a lot of work to do. You’d think the truth would shine like a beacon and that people would seek it out. Would come to it without much persuasion. But it seems to be a hard sell. Fewer and fewer people getting inside in spite of the open arms, the warm invitation.
I sometimes think that the next task before humanity is to overcome the “us vs them” way of looking at the world. The tribal or national sense of identity. It is deep in our instinct. And it has taken us pretty far. It has been essential to survival. We live in gangs. It’s us vs the world. It’s a jungle out there. Actually, this is very close to the message of Jesus. Your mother and brothers are outside. Who are my mother and brothers? Those who believe the gospel. Even if they are not family. Even if they are foreigners. The Levite and the priest and the Samaritan all saw the man. Which of these was neighbor to the victim? Or, in the words of Miles Rowley, which one knew the will of God in this particular situation? The foreigner? The one with whom we don’t share common doctrine.
No it’s not us vs them. They are us. Those illegal emigrants. Those Russians. Those flaming homosexuals. Those Iraqis and Iranians. Those terrorists. They are children of some mother. They are victims of the same war. They are us. We are all the same in most respects. And they have truth. And we have truth. We both face difficult problems. They have gifted people and we have gifted people. They have mentally challenged people and so do we. They get to decide how to approach their problems, and we get to decide how to approach ours. They get to decide who they want to be. They get to decide which version of God they want to believe, and so do we.
Here’s what I believe. The progress depends on reaching out. That all men are brothers. That the only chance we have of going forward is if we combine our truths and together search for what is missing. Together work on our common problems. Affirm the values of love and generosity and empathy. And that we need to care for each other.
And when the space exploration resumes, the missionary we send out to the other creatures will have a lot more truth than a missionary any legacy religion could send today.
Cheers
Jim
Thanks for your reply.
Non-Christians can connect with God- in fact the Bible says that God commands it! Everyone has to start from making a connexion. Jesus said that those who make the full connexion have the ability to know what is decided in heaven. Paul wrote that Christians have 'the mind of Christ'. This is exclusive, I accept. And the fact is that, if Christianity is true at all, everything else is nowhere. It matters not whether one is Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, atheist, of one is those beliefs with knowledge of what one is doing, one is lost, according to Christianity. There is no saying that other faiths are just as valid, or almost as valid, for a Christian. The person who says that religions are all about the same is, knowingly or otherwise, attacking Christianity.
The reason is that Christianity says what other religions do not. The others say that heaven, nirvana, some higher state, can be reached by human effort. When people strive for higher things, they fail to deal with their evil tendencies, to root them out. They cannot even gain a clear conscience, because an evil done is an evil done, for ever. The cross of Christ gives a clear conscience, and the motive to keep it clean, to love each and every person that one meets. But one must admit that there is not the smallest possibility of gaining perfection, the perfection that God, and human conscience, requires, by one's own efforts. One must accept the offence of the cross, that means accepting one's own guilt. Jesus said of the woman who visited at the home of the Pharisee Simon, that she loved much because she had been forgiven much. It was not that she was a greater sinner than anyone else, but that she saw the seriousness of sin. That is why people do not take Christianity seriously today. We have hardly a clue what danger we are in. We smile at sin, and make excuses, even if we think that what do is wrong, which is not very often. There is little or no awe of God, even among people who claim to be religious. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and that is where one must start, or never start at all. If and when we come, in trembling and probably tears, to God to confess our awful deeds, to truly detest what we have done, and intend to start again, God can do something with us- and not before. It is then that we are grateful, like that woman, because we know what we have been saved from by the cross. It is gratitude that motivates us to love God, and everyone, whoever they are, because Jesus died for everyone.
Best wishes,
Miles
First you stated that
“Christians should have confidence that they alone possess truth about God”.
Then
“I don't think that Christians are alone in possessing truth, knowing about God. But I think they are alone in 'knowing' God, in knowing his will in particular situations”
and now
“Non-Christians can connect with God”
If I were an optimist I’d say you are making progress. But alas, I think you are stuck. You also said:
“if Christianity is true at all, everything else is nowhere”
You paint with a broad brush.
I have a tale of two Christians. I knew them both. I’ll use their real names because you have no way of knowing them. Dave was the first. Or maybe the second. I met him second because of the first. The first was Carl. Carl was genuine. He was from Maine. Wore a potato lapel pin. What? Maine potatoes? Took note of the ad with a pretty girl “looking for a good vacation? Try Me.” (ME being the abbreviation for Maine.)
I met Carl through a notice he pinned up at our agency. Something about a Christian Growth Fellowship that he established, that met in the basement of a nearby church at lunch every day of the week. You’d see Carl around the block, sometimes talking with street people (homeless, teens, others) and always carrying a beat up New Testament. He also had a prison ministry. His wife told me this. When she went solo to a neighborhood party and they ask where’s Carl, she’d say, Oh Carl’s in Jail.
Carl was absolutely wonderful. More a listener than a speaker. He didn’t push Christianity. Sort of like what St. Francis said: “Preach Christianity always. If necessary use words”. Because Carl didn’t need words. You could see his faith in what he did. And when he did speak, he was deferential. He would tell you what he believed, but it was Ok if you believed something else. One more thing: I remember coming down to the basement when Carl was the only other person there. And I got the sense that I interrupted him. Interrupted his praying. But no, he’d say, an angelic smile spreading on his face. You are not interrupting. Come on in.
Usually there were several people in that basement room. And we had a loose agenda. A different thing for every day of the week. One day was bible study, for instance. One day was just fellowship. I forget the others. The folks that gathered, came under Carl’s influence. There were Catholics and Protestants. From many different denominations. One person was into yoga. We came from many different points in our pilgrimage. Some old, some not.
Dave, the other guy, was one of us. Dave was young. Handsome. Energetic. Cheerful. And orthodox. His life revolved around church. He was also musical. Played trumpet. Sang. I knew him also in a singing group that the agency had. And once he performed a rap that he had written all about Jesus. The sort of thing that I imagined he would perform in a church or Sunday school. But in the context of the agency, out of place. Dave didn’t listen so well. Dave had all the answers. Dave bought into a closed system of thought. Invulnerable. Impenetrable. Fossils which might be evidence for evolution or for the age of the earth he might well interpret as items God created and put in the ground to test our faith in the Bible.
Carl caught spinal meningitis, and sat in a wheel chair for a couple of years, slobbering on himself before he died, leaving his wife to finish raising 2-3 kids. I went to his funeral. We all went. We all were concerned how his wife would fare.
Dave’s wife left him. I can’t recall whether they had any kids. But Dave was heartbroken. Couldn’t understand what God was up to. Knew that the plan was monogamy. Believed that his wife would come back. But she didn’t, no matter how hard Dave believed. Dave was cast adrift. I think he performed his Christian rap for us after this happened. So I think it didn’t affect his faith.
And that’s where the story ends. I am retired now. I knew these guys a long time ago, during my bureaucratic career. I reflect on them now because they reflect two dramatically different styles of Christianity. My take is that Carl was a saint. And that for some reason, saints don’t live long. What was God thinking? Dave was no saint. Dave was all alone. He was confined by his faith. And it didn’t serve him well. It built up walls around him. Made him unattractive for such a handsome guy. Looks deceive. Carl was not handsome. He had thin hair. Wore glasses. Wore plain clothes. Not a natty dresser. But he was saintly. He was attractive. He was good. Dave was cheerful, effusive, lively. Good looking. Fit. Musical. But what? Unattractive. In a different category. On a different path. Ultimately sad. Where is the Joy? Aren’t Christians supposed to be happy? With Carl there was always joy. His wife had it too. Probably still has it. I expect all his kids are grown now. We have drifted apart. Or actually, I never knew them. I only knew Carl.
Maybe a Christian is a person you want in your life. A person you don’t want to see die. A person you will always remember. A person who never loses joy. In spite of purple weather. Or maybe that’s a godly person of whatever stripe. Whatever faith.
Why am I telling you this Miles? Dunno. For some reason it came to mind after I read your latest. While I was wondering how to reply. While I was thinking of you. The pattern of your thinking. So. There it is.
Cheers.
Jim
Thanks for your reply.
'If I were an optimist I’d say you are making progress.'
:) But maybe you're actually thinking that I'm contradicting myself? I don't think I am, and I think that if you maybe give those comments more thought, you'll agree. But if, after further reading, you don't agree, you'll no doubt explain why you don't.
'You paint with a broad brush.'
Or maybe it's Christ's narrow way that is the picture here? People often find Christianity restricting. Of course they do. But if Christianity is a matter of duty, of compulsion, as it is for so many, it's not Christianity at all. A Christian is motivated by love of Christ, and anyone who tries to 'be good' by effort will not get very far. If one does not feel one's sins, if one is not ashamed of them, one will never be grateful to God for dealing with them. So many are not ashamed, and many of them, perhaps the worst of them, call themselves Christians. There is 'no fear of God before their eyes,' the Bible says, and very many today somehow think that God is some sort of a dopey dummy who will smile and tolerate their wayward, selfish behavior to others. How they can acknowledge him as both the creator and a fool is a question only they can answer.
Of course, one might be well aware of one's sins, but want to hang onto them. So the claims of Christianity might be unwelcome to some, because if people come along who do what is right, their sins will be shown up. Anyone who wants to do what is right will meet opposition from those who want to stick with their bad ways. That 'goes with the territory'. Anyone who cannot put up with dislike, false accusation, uncivil treatment, can forget about becoming a Christian. It makes sense that Christians will meet such things, because people who want to do bad will not think twice about being unpleasant to those who make them feel uncomfortable. Anyone who wants to do what is right must expect to get opposition, and indeed anyone who claims to be a Christian who has a life of plain sailing in this respect should be worried.
Kind regards,
Miles
You have pretty good insight.
Have you ever wondered to what extent Christianity focuses on sin? I suppose sin explains things. Like why the world is in such a state. As if Christianity has a duty to explain everything. And sin is a part of each Christian’s sense of himself or herself. I am a sinner. But Jesus fixed that. Except he or she cannot say the next logical statement: Now I am no longer a sinner. It’s like a recovering alcoholic. They have to keep saying I am an alcoholic. That’s why I can’t drink. So Christians keep saying I am a sinner. That’s why I can’t sin. That’s why I have to keep focused on Christ. There hanging on a cross for my sins. In some sense, Christianity is all about sin. In the same way that alcoholics anonymous is all about alcohol.
The metaphor breaks down of course since the world contains many who drink responsibly. They may admire recovering alcoholics. But maybe they feel sorry for them since drinking can be part of a satisfying life. Hey Jesus turned water into wine at the behest of his mother at a wedding celebration.
I have a problem with sin. At least sin in the Christian lexicon. Where do you stand? What is your theory of sin? Here’s my take on the Christian view of sin. Tell me where I am wrong. Sin is something that offends God. God keeps track of our sins. Or maybe delegates this record keeping to angels. Someone up there keeps track. Knows when I am sinning. Knows my inmost thoughts. Because sometimes inmost thoughts are sins. And when I die, there will be a reckoning. I will come up before the judge. Before God. And God will decide, based on my record, whether I go to heaven or hell. Am I right so far? Or how would you put it differently?
The problem I have I know to be shared by at least one certified theologian. That Christianity is not about sin. It’s not about morality. It’s not about shaping up behavior. Rather it’s about love. If our motivation is love, we can forget about sin. Sin doesn’t enter in. Love is beyond sin.
The trouble is that both sin and love are large umbrella terms that mean a lot of things and the exact nature of each is hard to pin down. You could easily imagine trying to characterize each human action in each human situation as having some degree of sin and some degree of love. You could imagine scholars sitting around debating interesting cases. Hey, it goes on.
I’m thinking God doesn’t care. God has solved the problem a long time ago, putting consequences with our actions. We are the judge. We may decide to do something fully cognizant of the consequences. In fact we ought to. And most times we do. Sometimes unintended consequences or unexpected consequences dog us. But that’s negative. There are positive consequences too. We may intend for people to be happy. That is what God does. At least that is what I believe. And when our intentions when we act are to make people happy, hey, we are imitating God.
In my mind, Christianity (and the other religions too) are all about imitating God. They are all about happiness. They contain the wisdom of ages, what men and women have learned about what brings happiness. And, negatively, what destroys happiness. That’s the sin part.
But we can go beyond legacy wisdom. We are still experiencing God. We are alive. We know a thing or two about happiness, both what causes it and what diminishes it. We can chart our own course. Mostly it will align with Christianity. And actually, we can judge Christianity. We can say when it fails. When its adherents get something wrong. The emphasis on sin, on feeling one’s sins, on feeling bad because of sin seems wrong. The right emphasis is on happiness, on finding out what brings it, what actions tend to bring happiness. And focus on those.
What think you?
Cheers
Jim
'They will perish because they did not welcome and love the truth so as to be saved.' 2 Th 2:10-11 GNB
The truth that we must all love is that we have done dreadful things, things that drove a perfect man to the cross because he loved. Because he loved you, James. You, personally. If you were the only person on earth, he would have died for you, so that you would be reckoned as having no sin. That's the truth that's to be loved. And if we really love it, we will be reckoned as having no sin. But not if we don't.
.
Now to look into a few things that you brought up... I believe that yes many different religions know much about the bible, but they also pick and choose what they want to believe. That is the difference between a true Believer. Many people call themselves a Christian-but it terms of what a bible believing Christian really is- they are not. I think we must define a Christian. The biblical view of a Christian would be believing fully in Christ alone for salvation. John 14:6 say "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." You believe that His death and paid for your sins, and that He did not stay dead! Your Praise Him for this! As a True Christian you must accept Christ as the only way to heaven-the only perfect one. Excepting this also means you Trust Him and the word (Bible) that He has inspired (Hebrews). You then seek to live in obedience to Him. Therefore, there are many people who would call themselves a Christian, but truly are not. (once again I say this kindly:)
I believe it is a common grace of God to His followers that many (even most) people do nice/even good things. but, those good things will only bring good to those on earth. They will not do any good for the doer in line of eternity. Isaiah 64:6 says " All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away."
Thank-you for getting me to think more:) My baby is waking up and I have to get lunch around so I must end this for now! Have a nice day!
You are a delightful young lady (with at least one baby child) and I thank you for taking so much time commenting on what I have written and answering back. I think my own mother was like you. She was a very devout lady. We were Catholics. In some sense we still are. Or rather I still am. Mom is dead. I still go to mass on Sunday. Hey, I’m even a cantor. But our parish has so many good voices, I get infrequent assignments.
Mom and I used to go to daily mass when I was quite young. The church was a block away from our house and we would walk through the dark and cold to attend early mass before school. If I remember correctly, they had three masses each morning, one at 6:00, 7:00 and 8:00. The eight o’clock mass was attended by all the school children. I sang in the choir.
Mom believed everything the church taught. And I suppose I did too. I had neither the knowledge nor the inclination to question anything. And I believe mom was a saint. She was wonderful. And her religion was a big and formative part of her life. She was sexually repressed. Her mother told her to get a priest to explain to her about menstruation. It was a different age. And in spite of whatever sexual repression she had, she bore and raised 5 children, four boys ( I was second in line) and finally one girl, who turned out to be a prodigal daughter, but now, late in life, has become an ubercatholic. Way, way too Catholic. Still, she is a good and committed Christian, focusing much of her discretionary time and money on helping the homeless.
Like mom, you seem to have found your way. You seem to be in a good place. You needn’t get upset by anything I say. I am reluctant to even state where we part company in our beliefs. I have parted company with my youthful religion. My beliefs keep evolving. I yearn to discuss them. I yearn to ask pointed questions. To identify inconsistencies. To engage in verbal combat with thoughtful people. But you have something beautiful going on. I say, keep going.
A blessing on your house.
Jim
PS. Well, maybe one quibble. (I can’t help myself.) You said
“I believe that yes many different religions know much about the bible, but they also pick and choose what they want to believe. That is the difference between a true Believer. Many people call themselves a Christian-but it terms of what a bible believing Christian really is- they are not. “
It’s the “pick and choose” part I want to pick on. It implies that true believers do not pick and choose. But rather accept everything in the Bible. Because the bible has inconsistencies. It has been used, for instance, to justify slavery. In the OT, God commanded the Hebrews to kill every living thing in a village: the women and children and all the animals. (Saul apparently did not carry out this command and thereby incurred the wrath of God. He lost his life on the battle field.) Has God changed? Do we want to believe in a god like that? And what about the sayings of Jesus. If your eye scandalize you pluck it out. Go and sell everything you own and come follow me. Don’t even true believer Christians pick and choose?
I think we have permission to say when something does not make sense. I think that we need to understand the Bible as it was written and as it was intended. Actually, I think the Bible is helpful and I read parts every day and pick a passage to start me pondering something about the nature of God or of the right relationship with God. My thoughts take me wide of orthodox Christian belief, but maybe Christianity needs to evolve into a new phase if it hopes to survive. Christianity has a lot of truth. We don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
God gave us brains and curiosity. I do not think we please God by taking the easy way out, by accepting what others believe blindly and shut down all further inquiry. OK it gets scary. It is scary to venture away from security. To ask too many “What if’s”. But hey, you can connect with God. That makes it less scary. Who knows, maybe you will become the next prophet. God is still there, still reaching out to human beings, still waiting and watching. Maybe you have the gift of connection. Try meditation. Try sitting and listening hard. Try to detect a whisper. Ignore the earthquake and the tornado. God is in the whisper. This is Biblical wisdom. Jesus went off to the desert by himself frequently. As did many in the OT. Who was it in the cave waiting for the whisper? Jeremiah?
We all have to figure it out for ourselves. Legacy religions can help. But I believe closed systems of thought (which can be found in most religions) that have all the answers are not helpful.
We build on what we have. Many people, and maybe I am one, have sprung themselves from closed systems. Still, many holy people, my mother among them, lived their entire lives inside and made something beautiful of their lives. You don’t need to spring yourself. At least not now. God may want you sprung. But that’s up to you and God.
Cheers
j