Silencing Christians - Part 14

I think it is sad. Everyone has rights but Christians. Everyone voices their views they have the right to do it. Christians do it and we are pushy and need to be told we cant talk that way. I am sick of it.

I will confess that Jesus is Lord until they cut off my head.

Christians have gotten a bad rap the last few years and I have seen more people lashing out at the majority of them instead of going after those few who are causing the problems. This is happening on college campuses, churches and to various organizations like you mentioned, which I feel is sad since everyone supposedly has the right to express their spiritual views as long as they are not forcing it down people's throats (something people see Christians guilty of doing).

It's amazing to me, Diana, that people have decided that it's okay for someone to stand at the water cooler and talk about his/her sexual exploits, but mention that you're been to church and heard a fantastic sermon and you'll be in trouble.

It is sad. I don't get this cble channel so can't watch the program, but I despise how Christins are being singled out for silencing in recent yeas, maybe the last 20-25.

Even if you can't get the TV shows, you can watch them online.

I watched the first couple of episodes online, saw that they were making a lot of stuff up, and decided it wasn't worth the time and energy required to watch the rest of them. I guess some people just need to feel persecuted.

Making stuff up, Wil? Like what? These cases are real.

You can paint your hair red,white and blue, and paint your face to match coupled with taking your shirt of to show your painted chest and belly and sit there or stand and scream your fool head off and you are considered a loyal fan. But even mention the name jesus and the wonders of his love and you are either a dangerous and troublesome radical or your completely off your rocker. Go figure! It will get much worse as time goes on so be prepared!!

I know, David.

I am so sick of all the persecution of the Christians.........guess that we're not supposed to have any rights of any kind. Oh shoot, I had intended on watching that program Saturday night but something else happened.......I've heard it's exceptionally good.
Thanks for the link....maybe I can watch the back programs.
I do know a LOT about Liberty Counsel........I send donations every so often, but it's a very good idea to print out this article and keep the phone numbers handy.
Thanks for an excellent article....I'm printing it out now!

It seems to me that everybody has rights except for us Christians.....I, for one, am really sick and tired of it......I have never seen such hateful people as those who are anti-Christian.....it is really scary. David, you are 100% correct in everything you say. Things will get a lot worse; it says so in the Bible, so I guess we all need to be prepared.....I always say, though, that no matter what, I am proud to be a Christian.
I was so disappointed as to having missed that program Saturday night, as I had all intentions of watching it. Thanks so much for the link to watch all the episodes...I have put it in "My Favorites."
I am very familiar with Liberty Counsel, as I give donations to them every once in awhile....thanks for all the other addresses....I've printed this article out and will save it.
Thanks a lot!

We discuss faith at my place of employment all the time, I just don't see persecution here. Christians are the majority.

I agree with David!!!!! It's going to get much worse!!!!

"Making stuff up, Wil? Like what? These cases are real."

It's been a while, and I don't even know if I kept the notes I made while watching the programs, but here are some of the comments I made in other discussions at the time:

So far I've only watched enough of the first episode to see the first two examples they've given of Christian persecution.

The first involved a textbook used in California schools. I didn't see or hear anything in that section that showed how the use of that textbook silenced Christians. How does teaching about Muslims from a historical/social studies perspective silence Christians?

The second involved a group of Christians who were arrested for disrupting a National Coming Out Day celebration. I can understand why that would be upsetting, but I don't see why it's considered an attack on Christianity in particular. Protesters are arrested all the time, whether they're Christian or not. That may be an attack on free speech in general, but not on Christianity or Christians in particular, is it?

As I understand it, all the charges were dropped, as they should have been. The Pennsylvania ethnic intimidation law specifically exempts "harassment by communication or address."

"Persecution is also to afflict, to harass, to distress, to oppress, to trouble, to annoy constantly."

That sounds a lot like what those "Repent America" people were trying to do to the people at that Outfest party discussed in the second example. Do you think Repent America was persecuting the Outfest participants?

I'm hoping I'll get to watch the rest of the clip today and see what other examples they give. So far I don't think they've presented much of a case to back up their claims of persecution.

The other comment is quite a bit longer, so I'll put it in a separate comment.

"Making stuff up, Wil? Like what? These cases are real."

Here's another comment I made after watching the second episode back in March:

I watched this episode, and I have to say I didn't think they put forward much in the way of evidence to show that Christians are being "silenced." The first story they told -- about Brittany McComb -- came the closest, but I was disappointed that they didn't mention how her lawsuit turned out. And also that they neglected to mention that Brittany had said she would give the edited and approved version of her speech, and then broke her word and tried to give the original version instead.

School officials have the right (and in fact, a responsibility) to make sure graduation speeches are appropriate for the occasion, and to ask a student to change their speech if it isn't. That's true whether the student is a Christian or not, and whether the speech fails to get approval because it contains "overtly proselytizing comments" or because of some other language or content deemed inappropriate for a public high school graduation ceremony.

And it's not like these same Christians are cool with proselytizing at school, because the next story is all about how kids in California schools are being forced to learn about Islam as part of their social studies lessons, and apparently the AFA isn't happy about that at all. I'm not sure how having students learn about the Islamic faith and its impact on "the social, cultural, and technological changes that occurred in Europe, Africa, and Asia in the years 500-1789" manages to silence Christians, but it must since they're so upset about.

I guess they want kids to learn history and social studies without any mention of Islam or Muslims at all, because they say these textbooks are full of "outright propaganda for Islam...influencing a lot of youths, including the American who eventually went to Afghanistan to fight for the Taliban." Wow, that sounds pretty serious! Apparently learning about a religion, even in the context of a history or social studies lesson, can have "real impact."

If that's the case, wouldn't it be in our childrens' best interests to silence not only the Muslims but the Christians, the Jews, the Buddhists, the Hindus, and followers of all other religions as well? Wouldn't it be best to make sure nothing even remotely related to religion ever got mentioned anywhere near a school? Personally, I don't think so. And I don't think the AFA thinks so, either. I think they want to make sure that other religions (especially Islam) are ignored, while Christianity is given special treatment.

That's why they complain about a school where "lunch-time is being used as an opportunity, on school grounds, to openly proselytize and intimidate in the name of Islam and Allah." but they're upset that Brittany McComb wasn't allowed to openly proselytize in the name of Christianity and Jesus.

Their final example of how Christians are being silenced makes even less sense than the other two. The story is about how a bunch of Christians "forced the city [of Philadelphia] to abandon the observance [of Gay and Lesbian History Month]." Huh? That sounds to me like the Christians are the ones doing the "silencing". And they seemed really proud of their accomplishment.

So I guess the main thing I learned from this episode is that the American Family Association thinks it's bad when Christians are silenced (meaning they aren't allowed to say and do whatever they want), but that they think it would be good if Muslims were silenced, and that it's an outright cause for celebration whenever Christians manage to silence gay people.

I didn't watch the other episodes. My connection is slow, and I figured it would just be more of the same.

I'm just not buying the persecution whine.

Jane, it's easy to hide your head in the sand when it doesn't affect you. Everyone should be concerned when Christians are discriminated against or silenced. One never knows who will be next.

Wil, and everyone else, here are what each episode includes:

#1
Christians who have been arrested for speaking out at a public rally, students forced to recite verses from the Koran and to stage their own jihad and activists pushing tolerance to such an extreme that the Bible is being labeled hate speech.


#2
You’ve heard the myth of “separation of church and state” but on this episode of “Speechless. . .Silencing the Christians” you’ll learn how this “sacred cow” of the liberal left only applies when it is being used to keep “Christ” out of school.

#3
“Hate crime” is the new buzzword in law enforcement. But how is “hate” being defined? Learn how this legislation targets thought and freedom of speech that could make it illegal to believe in “Truth” or even quote the Bible.

#4
A student is prohibited from singing about God in a school talent show. Boy Scouts in Philadelphia lose their home of 80 years. A VA hospital neutralizes its chapel by removing Christian symbols. Dr. Gary Cass talks about violence against Christians.

#5
Lesbian couples sue a church for the right to hold a civil union ceremony. A mother is told reading from the Bible to her son's class is against the law. A Canadian pastor faces a hate crimes tribunal for writing a letter to his local newspaper.

#6
Public school students in Texas are told they can’t mention Jesus in discussions about Christmas or Easter. Texas passes a law designed to protect students’ religious liberties.

#7
Opponents of free speech work to reinstate the 1949 Fairness Doctrine in an effort to silence conservative radio and television programs. The nation’s leading experts weigh in on this fight and how it’s being fought in the federal government.

#8
A mother who left the lesbian lifestyle faces losing her daughter to her former partner for teaching the girl that the Bible calls homosexuality a sin.

#9
Three cases of employees losing their jobs as a result of the practice of their faith.

#10
A human resources executive and a corporate fraud investigator are fired for writing opinion columns critical of the homosexual social agenda while they were at home on their personal time.

#11
Public university employees face discrimination and threats to their careers for holding a Christian worldview.

#12
A Georgia Tech student faces death and rape threats for opposing liberal feminist policies and a social work student is told she must violate her conscience to complete her program.

#13
U.S. Senator Jim DeMint and Clemson University professor J. David Woodard discuss their new book Whispering Christians, Restoring Our Right to Say it's Wrong. A California church is denied use of a public facility because of the faith content of their meetings.

#14
Agencies that assist victims of faith-based discrimination are featured.

Wil, your assessment of what the segment about Muslims was about is much different than what I saw.

i never heard of this show

Given the wealth and power of the Christian Churches in the U.S. I would suggest that the Christians are the last religious group the suffer discrimination. After all, aren't we celebrating the Christian religion by this whole season of the year? Try getting the beam out of your own eye before telling others to get the mote out of theirs.

"Wil, your assessment of what the segment about Muslims was about is much different than what I saw."

I think that might be because you're a member of the choir they're preaching to, and I'm not.

No, I think it's because the school had the children learning how to do jihad. And yet one cannot even mention Jesus in school? And you don't see the difference and that it's wrong????

Larry, have you watched any of these shows? Did you even look at the list of shows? Please.

Thank you for sharing this info

"No, I think it's because the school had the children learning how to do jihad. "

Did it? Which school was that, again? I watched and listened to Brad Dacus and Janet Parshall talking about all sorts of stuff that was allegedly going on at some school in California, but they never named the school so that I might try to find out if their allegations were true.

After a little research, I think they might've been talking, at least in part, about Jennifer Schroeder's complaint in San Luis Obispo, Cal. (Dacus helped her out with it). But that was way back in 2002. Surely they can find more recent examples of persecution, can't they?

In any case, I think I've already covered that story in my earlier comment, so I won't repeat it. As for the jihad thing, the story made it clear that the definition of jihad the students were taught was "doing one's best to resist temptation and overcome evil." Which part do you object to -- resisting temptation or overcoming evil?

And they did mention Jesus in school. It's just that the story only talked about the 7th grade textbook, which covered 500 to 1789, which included the birth of Islam. The 6th grade textbook covered earlier time periods, and included Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity.

Now I haven't read those textbooks, so I don't know exactly what they said about all those different religions, but when I went to the publisher's website and looked at the activities and internet resources that they say are supposed to "supplement your students' learning of unit concepts", I found a link to this site, where you can learn all about Passover. Here's the kinds of things kids can learn there:

The holiday's name - Pesach, meaning "passing over" or "protection" in Hebrew, is derived from the instructions given to Moses by G-d . In order to encourage the Pharaoh to free the Israelites, G-d intended to kill the first-born of both man and beast. To protect themselves, the Israelites were told to mark their dwellings with lamb's blood so that G-d could identify and "pass over" their homes.

And a link to this site about the Christian catacombs of Rome. Here's a little sample:

The Saviour is often represented at work among men: on the bas-reliefs or on the walls we see Jesus who touches the eyes of the blind-man or raises Lazarus from the tomb; Jesus who multiplies the bread or changes water into wine: it is always the same Christ who goes about doing good.

So it looks like the complaint isn't about silencing Christians. It's letting students learn about Islam. Dacus says that the textbook "would be a great recruitment tool for Islam for children."

And what did Jennifer Schroeder promise when she ran for school board? She said "If I win the election, I'll do the best that I can to bring Christian literature and family values back into the schools.?" So it's OK for Christians to use the public school system for recruitment purposes, but not Muslims. Brilliant.

I accept that kids can't learn about history without learning about some of the more influential religions. But I expect it to be done from a neutral, fact-based, historical point-of-view. The story of Jesus turning water into wine should be treated the same as the story of Zeus seducing Danaë while in the form of a shower of gold.

But even if all religions aren't given equal treatment in some schools, I don't see how that amounts to silencing Christians.

Marilyn, I appreciate you speaking out. It isn't easy to stand in the face of adversity, and let the truth be known. But it's right.

Thanks Marilyn

Wil, I think I suggested this to you when we had discussions before. If I didn't, I meant to do so. I know I've suggested it to others who doubt that Christians are being silenced.

Christians have the trinity with them at all times - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Our faith is, or is supposed to be, part of each and every part of our lives. As a little boy of 5 told me, having Jesus in your heart is like having the mayonaisse in your tuna sandwich. It's yucky without it, and you can't get it out once it's in there.

We've been told to "go and make disciples". That means that each Christian is supposed to share his/her faith. That's required of us.

So my challenge to you - to prove to yourself that we are wrong saying that we're silenced in schools, in the work place, in the community at large - is to try to be a Christian for 30 days. Carry a Bible with you and see what happens. Mention your best friend Jesus at the water cooler. Invite people you work with to church with you. You'll see what happens. Wear a cross around your neck and at this time of year, wear a pin that says, "It's okay to say Merry Christmas."

In the US today, it's okay to ask people at work to go to a strip club with you, but not to ask them to church.

The other night, my husband and I went to his daughter's school to see her in the 6th grade choir and band. Her school still has the kids singing religious Christmas carols along with secular ones and a few Jewish Hannukah tunes. As I sat there listening, I realized that all it would take would be for one person to complain about that, and the kids would no longer be able to sing Silent Night. It happens every year - somewhere - in our country.

The liberal media never mentions these things, so people don't know they're going on. Remember when the airline flight attendant was fired for wearing a cross? Probably not, since it wasn't covered on the regular news.

I was asked not to wear one myself when I worked in retail. I told my boss that it was the only necklace I wore. I tucked it inside my shirt, but sometimes as I worked stocking shelves and such, it would find its way out into the open. And I was told about that.

Thanks for all the good links you have provided here, Marilyn. Of course, those who are "not part of the choir" are not going to have the same opinion nor see things from the same perspective - that's where the problems come from. People who would normally do no harm, can see no harm in what's being done because they can't see why we should object to what is being said to us or done to us.

Then there are those who do perceive all Christians and all Christian churches to be similar - all to have money and all to either have power or be power hungry and desire to force others to believe as they believe - that sort of belief obviously brings up fear. Unfortunately, the very belief is incredibly wrong. I attend a little church where all of us are poor so of course our church is poor, also - ha ha! The only thing powerful about us is our faith in Christ and our belief that through Christ all things are possible. That does not mean that we want to force all others to believe as we do. Obviously, every believer here is going to understand that it is our heart's desire that all people would believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior because we honestly and completely believe that He is the one and only way to Salvation/Heaven. He is the only path to righteous living. That does NOT mean that we think all non-believers are somehow beneath us or less than we are because we did not start our lives as believers, we were also non-believers and just as our lives were changed for the better, we do pray that all other lives will be, also. But that is not evil nor manipulative, that is truly caring.

Yes, there has been great evil and horrendous acts performed in the name of God/religion - that is still going on and will be until the end of days. That is because of the immorality of mere humans - not because of God. And, it doesn't mean that everyone who follows the teachings of God/Christ or believes the Bible is the Word of God is of the same ilk.

As many of you have pointed out, too many today have tried to lump all of us in one, big, black pot and it is unjust and incorrect. We truly do need to continue to stand up defend our right to practice our beliefs, but we also need to remember that more than any other symbol, God is known by Love. It doesn't mean we need to lay down and be walked upon, but we do need to take the time to reassure people in some of their fears. In some of the problems that we've encountered within society lately, it might seem to many that we don't love the sinner and only hate the sin. The sinners tend to attack us and if we aren't careful, in trying to defend ourselves, we end up attacking in return. That's not something that you ever see Christ doing in the Bible so we need to figure out how to approach these problems in other ways. If we review the Beatitudes regularly, it helps remind us of the attitudes that we have to maintain and allow God to work on changing the hearts of the sinners.

Again, thanks for supplying this information, Marilyn.

Thanks, Shuana. That is a problem - people assuming that all Christians are the same and that all Christian churches are the same. The one thing we do share - and with those who are not Christian - is that we're all sinners. We all do fall short of the glory of God.

You're also right that the one thing that should make it obvious to the world around us that we are Christ followers is showing and giving love to everyone around us - our neighbor and our enemies. That's the tough part, isn't it?

Wil, back to you. :-)


The words of Martin Niemöller came to mind as I was responding to you. This is a translation, of course, since the words were originally written in German.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


In the US today, we need to remember those words. Every time that one group's rights are infringed upon, it hurts us all.

The Gays could use the above argument as well.

I'm not sure that's true, Jane. Marriage was designed by God to be between a man and a woman. Having society acknowledge that is not persecuting gays.

I've read those words before Marilyn, and I'm always saddened in my heart because, yes, it's going to get worse. But then, weren't we warned to resolve ourselves and prepare for it?

We are, Katie. And before the worst happens, we're supposed to tell as many people as we can about our friend Jesus.

I have to say right now I have not watched this show, I watch so very very few shows on TV anymore, cooking, history channel, science channel and maybe a few others.

But my thoughts on this subject that are not necessarily show related

If you look at history from when this country was formed, to present day you will see the trend of people trying to silence Christians, I would get passionate about this subject as well,
Look at how many Michael Newdow's (sp) we have now, just the mere t-shirt mentioning God on a student will get them suspended.
Wearing a political shirt against somebody or standing up for what they believe in will get them suspended
More and more we will see the trend going away from Chritianity.
What bothers me more is how everyone, from schools to businesses seem to be catering to Muslim and Islam faith religions.
Mooch

What? You can't go to your own church and worship as you choose ??? If not then you are persecuted. If you can then this is just cry baby crap.

(and "Gay" is not religion)

Geez, what next, discrimination against billionaires?

The idea that the majority religion in the country is discriminated against because it's not allowed to control everything is very strange.

Fun Christianity fact: Since the beginning of Christianity, almost all of the organized persecution of Christians has been carried out by other Christians.

God does not make federal laws Marilyn unless you've seen a memo I haven't and the bible only speaks to those who believe in it.

I'm wiccan and queer. Bet you don't want to hear from or about me.

Respectfully, the idea that anyone is being "persecuted" because someone doesn't agree with their particular and specific viewpoint is not Biblical. Too many in the Christian community are, in my view, maligning the name of Christ by insisting that their interpretation is the only thing allowable in the US, and only those "orthodox" views should be spoken.

In reading the New Testament, letters are written to diverse churches and individuals acknowledging their societies, and suggesting ways to work and live together.

If we spent more time figuring out how to live like Jesus and less time demanding that others are apostate, our country would be in better shape.

Not meaning to rant, but some of the groups (however well-meaning) just disseminate hate.

Nippy said it well ...

Fun Christianity fact: Since the beginning of Christianity, almost all of the organized persecution of Christians has been carried out by other Christians.

What a bunch of whiners you people are. Instead of sitting around on your butts pecking at your keyboards boohooing about being poor persecuted Christians why don't you go out and help somebody that needs help. Why don't you read the sermon on the mount and go out and do what Jesus told you to do. I don't think Jesus really gives a rat's patootie if I think you are a Christian or not. I do think he pays a lot of attention to how you lead your life and how you treat other people (all other people). I don't think he was paticularly into whining. Be a Christian and quit whining and do it know.

The ACLU is probably on some Christian's hitlist - lol. --Joe

"Wil, back to you. :-)"

Back to me? You wrote an article about a specific series of videos, I commented on several of the episodes, you raised a specific issue about one of the stories in one of the episodes, I responded, and you decided instead of continuing that discussion you'd challenge me to try to deceive my colleagues into believing I was a Christian.

I'll happily respond to your challenge, but I'd like to know if you're planning to respond to the points I made and the questions I asked about the situation with the 7th graders in California.

How long have Christians silenced others? Way to long if you ask me!!How many years have I had to hide who I was because people would believe what they heard from a minister that my religion was devil worshiping! Doesn't feel to good does it. Christians are finally beginning to feel what its like to be a member of other religions.

Like I said above:


The words of Martin Niemöller are important. This is a translation, of course, since the words were originally written in German.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


In the US today, we need to remember those words. Every time that one group's rights are infringed upon, it hurts us all.

If we allow people to insist that Christians NOT practice their faith, then everyone else will be at risk at some time in the future.

Nippy, we want the right to mention Jesus - in book reports in school, in our work lives. We want to be able to openly display a Bible - at a school lunch table or at our desk at work. We want to be able to wear a cross without being told we cannot. We want kids to be able to sing a religious song in a school talent contest, if he/she desires. Is that really asking too much?

Wil, I tried to find your post above about 7th graders. I am all for having schools teach about all faiths when they're studying the periods in history. We cannot possibly understand history - of Europe or of our own country or of others - if we don't include religion in the study of history.

But while we're doing that, we need to be honest about who our forefathers were and what they believed, when we come to that time period.

"I am all for having schools teach about all faiths when they're studying the periods in history."

Really? All faiths? I suppose it would be nice, in the interest of fairness, but honesty, if they did, they wouldn't have time to teach anything else. There are a lot of different religions in the world, Marilyn.

"But while we're doing that, we need to be honest about who our forefathers were and what they believed, when we come to that time period."

Given the diversity of the US population, I would imagine our various forefathers (and our foremothers) believed in all sorts of things. Including a lot of things that it might not be appropriate to teach to 7th graders. But for some reason I've got a feeling that you've got specific forefathers and specific beliefs in mind.

But what does honesty about our forefathers and what they believed have to do with the story about the "kids learning how to do jihad"?

I think it's sad that Christians can't enjoy their "rights" without an unwilling audience.

""Yes, I believe in God." These were the last words of Columbine student, Cassie Bernall, before she was shot and killed during a murderous rampage in which several other Christian students were stalked and executed by fellow classmates."

Those two boys shot 38 people, killing 15 of them (including themselves), and you think your claim that several of those people were Christians makes it a good example of persecution of Christians? Are you serious?

Besides, how could you possibly know what Cassie Bernall's last words were? Were you there when she died? Emily Wyant was, and she says your story is wrong.

"We want kids to be able to sing a religious song in a school talent contest, if he/she desires. Is that really asking too much?"

I don't know enough about the specifics of the other situations you mentioned, but if I'm correct in guessing that this one is about the case of Olivia Turton, which was one of the stories in Episode 4 of the series, then the answer is clearly 'no.'

She won her court case, as reported by the Associated Press in this story. Not only did she win, but both the US Department of Justice and the American Civil Liberties Union submitted amicus curiae briefs supporting her. The judge's opinion can be read here.

How exactly does this constitute persecution or silencing of Christians?

"Folks are welcome to research the book and the facts for themselves on Columbine and any other attacks rather than relying on other's opinions."

Unless they were there, how exactly would folks be able to learn any facts unless they are provided in the testimony of the people who were there and lived through it?

Your still whining.

With some Christians(not all) just the very Existence of other religions means persecution for them. They are the majority religion, yet they are the most angry and insecure group of people I have ever seen! If you want to meet some persecuted people, try and find some Jews who survived the Holocaust! People have it good in this country, stop whining and have faith in God.

Jane, I don't know any Christians who think that the existence of other religions means persecution. Some cults, perhaps, but not Christians. Christians are followers of Christ. And we're supposed to do what Christ told us to do. That means loving people and loving God. It also means that we're supposed to go and make disciples.

The first amendment gives us the right to practice our faith. Christ followers are not supposed to look down upon anyone who doesn't believe. The best way to win folks over to Christ is to love them into the Kingdom.

But I do believe it's the obligation of every Christian to set things right when people are confused about what we're all about. And we are supposed to be ready, willing and able to die for our faith. That doesn't mean that we should wait at home for "them" to come for us. It means we're supposed to be out in the world, befriending people just like Jesus did. And, like Jesus, when we find wongs - to ourselves or to others - we're supposed to point that out.

It's wrong to force children to learn to plan jihad in school. It's wrong to teach them how to cast spells. And, it's equally wrong to try to force them to be Christians.

But it is also wrong to not allow a child to mention the name of Jesus because it might offend someone.

If we allow this to continue and to escalate, then we are not doing the world any good at all, but are being "comfy Christians."

I am a Christian but I also have Jewish ancestry. My relatives crawled through sewers in Poland to escape the death camps. I'm sorry, I just don't see that kind of thing going on in the U.S. On the other hand, I don't tell others how to think. If some Christians want to wear the victim archetype, then I say go for it. It's just not for me.

"Nippy...Is that really asking too much? "

Short answer, yes.

Longer answer, religion is an important part of many people's private lives. The US was founded on the principle of a secular government. For the protection of everyone's religious freedom it's vital that we keep it that way.

THANK YOU, Nippy.

Sorry, Nippy, we'll have to disagree about. The first amendment gives children the right to sing a religious song at a talent show that mentions the name of Jesus.

Jane, of course there is a big difference between not being allowed to mention Jesus and having one's life threatened. But everything starts somewhere.

I remember when couples on TV shows in the 50s and 60s could not share a bed. Bathrooms were not mentioned. Little by little, as we closed our eyes to changes in the entertainment media, filth has crept into it. That's what happens.

Little by little, everyone's rights can be whittled away - and they have been and are being today. But because it supposedly doesn't affect everyone, not only don't people care, they're standing in the wings with pom-poms shouting, "Way to go government!"

And then those same people want to know why we can't all get along and why we can't all be united? Oh please.

"The first amendment gives children the right to sing a religious song at a talent show that mentions the name of Jesus."

So which Christians are being silenced? The court ruled in her favor. How is she, and all the other little kids who want to sing about Jesus (or Allah, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster, or whoever) in their after-school talent shows, being persecuted?

"It's wrong to force children to learn to plan jihad in school."

What school is forcing children to learn to plan jihad?

None Wil, this stuff is made up.

"None Wil, this stuff is made up."

I said as much in my original comment, Jane. But Marilyn assures me that "[t]hese cases are real." But when pressed for specifics, she seems to prefer changing the subject. :(

Marilyn, like millions of others, chooses to believe anything the AFA says. That's unfortunate, since very little of what they say is true.

I believe these cases are real because I have seen cases myself. We've discussed that before Wil. These things happen in schools all over the country every year. Things happen in businesses all over the country. Almost every Christian I know has a story of something like this that has happened to someone in their own family or church or neighborhood.

"These things happen in schools all over the country every year."

Can you give me the name of one school where children were forced "to learn to plan jihad"? And can you explain, even briefly, what that means?

The AFA is one of the biggest propaganda mills in this country. If you beleive the garbage the AFA generates your gullibility is of awsome proportions.

Jesus said, Those who live by the sword die by the sword. That is aparent in this argument, those who live by the argument die by the argument. Has anyones mind been changed by the exchange of opinions? I bet not. I can see however the increased rage that it brings upon both sides.
We have the rite as humans to belive within ourselves the things wich we will base our life upon. It is these things that will dictate the direction of everything. If we are Christans then let us believe and stand firm. We are here not to argue and debate but to be examples, just as Jesus was. He did not come to force those who do not believe futher away with argument but to draw them with with love and compassion.
Please understand that God will not force anything upon anyone. The hard times we go thru we bring upon ourselves. The precious time spent arguing is time lost from being an example and helping those who are in need. If we want a voice we must earn a voice with our actions. Show people love and compasion. Understand that the only time Jesus disputed anyone was the " Church" becouse they thought they were above all. He said they set laws that they cant even live by. He wanted them to se the true will of God. I often wonder, have we yet?

I do know many graduation ceremonies have discontinued their "benediction" speeches by a member of clergy. I did hear of one story where the valedictorian planned a "sneeze" in his'/her speech so that the rest of the class could yell out "God Bless You!" Creative!

By the way, very good words/advise from Samuel!

Thanks for sharing.

sharon SugarMomma is a wise woman,

Sorry, this may be a bit off topic. You are a wiccan and queer??? You have more to complain about than us Christians. In Jamaica, we have laws against both!!! (IMAGINE THAT!!!!) People like you face more persecution and efforts at subversion than we do.

Robert (picking up and dusting off) S.,

"I don't think Jesus really gives a rat's patootie if I think you are a Christian or not. I do think he pays a lot of attention to how you lead your life and how you treat other people (all other people). I don't think he was paticularly into whining. Be a Christian and quit whining and do it know."

Laughing so hard I couldn't type for 5 minutes - still laughing while typing.

That's the most accurate comment of this post I've read. And I'm a Christian.

Dennis

wow never heard of that show. There is more persecution and silencing of Christians to come.