Personal About Politics: Health Care Reform: Fact vs. Fiction

Good going, Cheri.
I just hope that Obama will stop giving up things to the Republicans. They aren't going to help anyway, so the give-aways just hurt the bill without gaining anything.

BTW, you might be interested in this.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977783589

Well done.

thank you for the wonderful article. well said!! :)

Another. well done.

The GOP has just causes all the foot dragging delay because they need more time to poison the well. There is NO logical reason to not want to FIX a badly broken system so their anti Obama motives are quite clear. Time for them to be sent to the woodshed and for President Obama to get serious about doing whatever he needs to DO to get the Dems in line and PASS this thing ASAP!

Ape, we're not against fixing it; we're against demolishing it.

Then please explain why in the past MANY years you and your ELECTED leaders have done NOTHING to address the problems instead being quite content to give tax cuts and breaks to those that should have been paying their good fortune forward by paying a fair share and lifting the quality of life for those below THEM (you)! You squandered YOUR time and now expect to commandeer OUR time to make some rules and have even convinced yourselves that we are the ones being UNREASONABLE! Pah-lease Spare us your phony Americanism and let us get on with doing SOMETHING!

Nora,what have Republicans done to fix healthcare? Bush had eight years. What is the present plan.t

The present "plan" the Republicans have is to defeat any effort at reforming the health-insurance nightmare in the US by whatever means necessary.

Exactly Jeannie. Interesting that Nora says, "we're against demolishing it." If she said, "we are against it." she would be more on target because conservatives & Republicans are against anything President Obama or Democrats propose, not just health care. It just happens to be the topic of conversation right now. As for being against demolishing it...that is exactly what you are trying to do, demolish, demolish, demolish any new plan floated by the administration. Why are you so afraid of improving a system that obviously doesn't work?

Theme : 6 Main Lies Have Nothing To Do With This Promising Reform.

1. The contents of savings (below) in this reform 'have nothing to do with' limit to medical access, rationing, tax raise, and deficit etc.

Rather, without wiping out these wastes and roots of bankruptcy for middle class, all fronts are sure to face larger financial ruin than this recession, which leads to more limit to medical access, more rationing, more tax raise, and more deficit etc than today.

$1.042trillion (cost of reform) + $245bn (cost to reflect annual pay raise of docs) = $1.287bn (actual cost of reform).

$583bn (the revenue package) + $80bn (so-called doughnut hole) + $155bn (savings from hospitals) + $167bn (ending the unnecessary subsidies for insurers) + 129bn(mandate-related fine based on shared responsibility) + $277bn (ending medical fraud, a minimum of 3% , the combined Medicare and Medicaid cost of $923.5bn per year, as of July,) = $1.391trillion + the reduced cost of ER visits (Medicare covers some 40% of the total) + the tax code on the wealthiest more reduced than originally proposed = why not ? (except for a magic pill, an outcome-based payment reform & IT effects and so forth).

Unlike high fuel price and mortgage rate in recent years as the roots of great recession and bankruptcy of middle class, the severity in the high cost of health premiums has come to light lately. Similarly, in an attempt to hide these deficit-driven corruptions and wastes, the greed allies struggle to turn the savings via removing these wastes into limit to medical access, rationing, tax raise, and deficit etc.

In contrast, not to mention a wide range of consumer protection, options across state lines, this promising reform takes initiatives in more primary care docs and improved long-term care. Unnecessarily, hope should not be replaced with all forms of malign lies, fear, just like people don't have to fear quitting drug.


2. Greedy insurers with no competitors by consolidation have nothing to do with the law of price, demand & supply.

Under the free market theory and the premise that the public health is also one of commodity like a house, if the demand decreases on a large scale, accordingly the price tends to reflect it, as in the case of house price, and it never happens for the price to spiral up. One step forward, in case the price is spiraling up, to be sure, the remaining clients should withdraw the contract or choose the other options. In practice, runaway premiums with no competitors by consolidation drive the enrollees out, and 4C + 2R (canceling, capping, cherry-picking, cash for special lobby, rationing, rapid premium hike) guarantee multiple times as much profit. Sadly, no way-out other than the prohibitive ER is allowed in America. Therefore, the victims today and tomorrow deserve long overdue protection from non-profit Government.

3. The plans to stem inflation in the House have nothing to do with crowd-out.
With the heartbreaking tears in mind (Nearly 11 Million Cancer Patients Without Health Insurance), private market also needs changes and should join together to complete this reform , as promised, otherwise, the runaway premium only has itself to blame while new firms are filling the void with competitive deals.
And It can be said that fair competition starts with a fair, sustainable market value.

However, the plan in the House is designed to keep people in an employer-based health insurance system, and the public option would be offered to those for whom employer-provided insurance is not available. And job-based coverage (indirect payment), some mandate code, ample capital, the reduced exorbitant ER costs, IT base to streamline the administrative processes and trim the costs might be favorable to the private market. Over time, supposedly, the public plan will concentrate more on basic, primary cares, and the private insurers will provide their clients with differentiated services. Focus should be on the uninsured, the underinsured.

In an attempt to avert innovation, moderation, and social responsibility, accusing essential affordability, citing take-over, will be a dirty play.

-- Except For The Underinsured, The Uninsured Alone Outnumber The Entire Population In Canada --

4. Profit-driven markets have nothing to do with affordable, sustainable public health.

When the public health is also one of commodity like a house, we come to a tragic and unthinkable conclusion : As to for-profit business, the more and longer ill patients get, the more profits they make, and it will debilitate the overall economy involving education for the future (roughly 40% of the uninsured, around 20million of young adults).

Under the most wasteful structure on the planet like no coordinated preventive care program waiting until people get ill, about 50% of idle world's best practices, a pay for each and every service reimbursement and frequent readmissions, no e-medical record and deaths, crushing litigations and the more profits via the unnecessary, risk-carrying procedures, and the most inefficient paper billing systems imaginable, overpriced pharmaceuticals, bloated insurance companies, incredible medial fraud, exorbitant costs by the tragic ER visits etc, it might be no wonder with the comprehensive, systematic reform in the pipeline, just one attitude of patient-oriented value in 10 regions has attained 16% of savings in Medicare while their quality scores are well above average.

Aside from the already allocated $583 billion and the savings of this reform package, 16% of $923.5bn (the combined Medicare and Medicaid cost per year, as of July) is around $147.76bn per year and 1.4776trillion over the next decade, and this patient-oriented value alone could be enough to meet the goal.

Please be 'sure' to visit http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13gawande.html?hp for credible evidences !

Today, another innovative, fundamental change in payment system, or patient's outcome based payment reform that is able to turn the profit-oriented malpractices and volume into the patient-oriented value and quality is waiting for a final decision.


5. Inflation-driven greedy allies backed by the insurers have nothing to do with deficit-neutral.

When some part of our body is ailing seriously, we are going to lose competitiveness, equally, when some part of a nation is ailing servery, it is going to loose competitiveness, too. In case somebody in the house gets ill, health will be put over house, in practice.


6. The analyses of CBO have nothing to do with common sense and practice.

Costs of Preventable Chronic Disease account for more than 75% of the nation’s $2.4 trillion medical care costs. U.S. health care spending is also expected to double in the next 10 years. and they are largely preventable -- 80 percent of the risk factors are behavior-related.

Unlike the analyses of CBO, world-wide outstanding public programs put heavier emphasis on preventive program equally, and preventable swine flu pandemic is expected to cost about $2trillion dollars world-wide for the lack of prepared vaccines. (Genes included in the new swine flu have been circulating undetected in pigs for at least a decade, according to a team led by Rebecca Garten of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who have sequenced the genomes of more than 50 samples of the virus).

If CBO asks the profit-driven interests about why they have hindered the budget request for preventive program in Medicare and Medicaid, they will say, " just look at the health Catrina special lobbying has made, we are professional, and we are now obstructing this reform, too " .

7. Conclusion : The public health is a fundamental human right.

As I said previously, patient-oriented value alone could be enough to meet the goal, and another innovative, fundamental change in payment system, or patient's outcome based payment reform that is able to turn the profit-oriented malpractices and volume into the patient-oriented value and quality is waiting for a final decision.

If At least, some media pay attention to this flower of reform, people will feel empty as the past and current discussion has been time-consuming for sure.


Thank You !

This comment sounds so amatuerish after reading Cheri's post... and so much full of bunk

Some of what was said makes sense. It is true that moving from a for-profit model to an outcome-based one would save money and improve overall health of the entire populace.

However, keeping any kind of market-driven approach doesn't make as much sense, especially when there is no option available but to do business with companies that have only "improving the bottom line" as their mission statement.

I do agree that switching to an outcome-based paradigm would reduce the number of malpractice suits (and resulting awards). Too often, tests and/or treatments are ordered more to prevent possible negligence suits rather than to diagnose or improve the patient's condition.

Thank you Dexter.

Thank You Health Insurance Companies:
Has any of you noticed that you Co-pay has gone up? Yes, folks many of your Co-pays just went from 80% down to 75%. After a middle of recession 10.4 % premium increase by those always willing to help you out insurance companies. With many US companies income not able to increase to take up this hefty mid-recession increase, many of your companies have been forced to lower the Co-pay as the only way to take up this increase and not drop your insurance. These guys are so confident that they have won the day. That their $50 million covert advertising campaigns have won them the NO PUBLIC OPTION, THAT THEY CELIBRATED BY GIVING YOU ALL A RATE INCREASE! What nice guys they are! But why should they pay for $50 million out of their bonuses when they can have their customers pay for the $50,000,000. Gee that’s a lot of 0’s. After all they got a lot of you scared of the Public Option even though a lot of you folks use it now.
If we make Health insurance mandatory, based on the 10% plus growth of premiums that these guys have decided that no matter what happen they will get I can make a few predictions: If you don’t believe me check with you financial advisor! Please!
1) Insurance is a base line cost to products and services that must be either passed on or absorbed by the Company you work for.
2) Percent of the labor content of a product or service will determine its impact, but if the 10% holds true all costs of production will have to have a 10% increase, because of labor content multiplier of cost effect. Business A must past onto Business B and so forth.
3) Which means a minimum of a 10% inflation rate:
4) Banks will need to have no less than a 2 to 4 point spread on long term loans (housing) that is 14% interest rate. Short term ugly girls (credit cards rates) will be set @ 8% to 15% minimum! which means that your current cards will also go up by 10%!
5) If a company cannot pass this expense on to their consumers, guess what? They will bleed to death, so expect companies to increase their migration from the US to Mexico and other countries. What does that do to the job Market? Your wages!
6) Can you say new recession is five years or less or a new lower level GNP for the US. Shrinking of our economy.
7) Wages can’t keep up even for the best paying jobs in our economy. Those who have the means will have to move to other Countries. Those who can’t will face continued lowering of standards, because of an ever higher unemployment rates.
Whether these greedy men know it or not they have thrown a gauntlet into Obama’s and the US Senate’s face, because they have made these seven points real for many of us. It is a No Guts No Glory point of Obama’s administration. Obama is going to have to decide who is going to be President of these United States. After he talks this over with Ben & Tim, Obama will know that Obama is now forced to include expanding the Medicare program to all American’s or making health insurance not mandatory. Which is where we are at now? Folks we have a broken Health Care system because of the Health Insurance Companies and we will continue to have a broken Health Care system and a broken economy, which will not be able to compete in the world economy, nothing gained! Base costs, (labor), has to be paid for. Further, Obama will have see, the Public Option, as who is going to dictate our economy. Is it going to be the Insurance Companies or is it going to be Obama!
It is also a shit or get off the pot moment for the Blue Dog Democrats and Moderate Republican Senators. They are in the boat whether they want to be or not! Either they are for a Public Option or they are going to be against it. If they look like they are changing their stance, they open themselves to potential opponents from their own Party. Moderate Republican Senators will be open for all sort of hearsay from more conservative opponent’s next election. Without a real programs and real changes to point to their own parties will get rid of them in the next election.
Dynamics have changed, for many hold off Companies; they have sat back and said nothing, because of premium repercussions, now that the Health insurance Companies have increased their premiums they have nothing to lose! And with many companies just holding on this is insult to injury. You could say, other CEOs, see things clearer now! They’ll get theirs no matter what!
Expect more corporate support of the public option. These guys are no fools. Golfing buddies or not, business is business. CEO’s and CFO’s have to face their investors and explain increases in labor costs after they have laid employees off and the CEOs know that their jobs are on the line!
Why Medicare being the only “Public Option” placed in the Health Care Bill.
1) Premium Tables already done.
2) Provider list already done.
3) Cost tables already done.
4) Contracts already done.
5) Administration personnel in place.
6) Known track record
7) Semi private/public
8) Only Public option that will be up before the next round of primaries
9) 50 yes 50 million swing voters enough to turn the tide even if just 10% voted.
Only thing that will need to be added is increase the size of sign-up personnel. Six months tops to do this. With-in 6 months 50 million voters would have affordable insurance. REPEAT 50 MILLION VOTERS! THAT IS THE SWING VOTE THAT MODERATE REPUBLICANS NEED FOR THEIR PRIMARIES AND THE CONSERVATIVE BLUE DOG DEMOCRATS NEED FOR THEIR’S! Without them they don’t stand a chance!
One line only stops this from happening!
“Anyone regardless of their age can apply for the Medicare Program as long as they have a current SSI number or TIN. (SSI and TIN Claus is to keep out illegal aliens from using the Medicare which maybe a concern for some Moderate Republicans.)
My daddy always told me that greedy men will dam your and THEIR future. Thank you!

Thanks Cheri--not much to add, this is a well researched post. Thanks!

Very interesting.

life and blood

I am sick. Sick of GOP lies. Sick about how many people believe this crap. Sick of Obama's futile attempts at bipartisanship. Sick of our cowardly Dem Congress. Sick og Blue Dogs. Sick, Sick, Sick, ie, SICK.

I am beginning to think we have become a nation of zombies, with the number of people who believe what they see and hear on Fox news.

The only way to nudge those Blue Dogs and others in Congress is to continue to contact them with personal stories. They are tired of the talking points. Our Congresswoman has said she wants to hear real stories, so let's stand up and be heard. It doesn't do any good to rant on this web site when we need to be in their offices, on the phone, in writing, and in person.

"It doesn't do any good to rant on this web site when we need to be in their offices, on the phone, in writing, and in person."

Right on, Prima Donna. Too much preaching to the choir. Obama got elected by a bottom-up groundswell. Those who elected him need to keep the pressure on him and the Congress.

Prima Donna, I have been busy writing letters, e-mails, making calls and attending meetings. This is just one small part of what I do.

Not a criticism of you in any way, shape or form, Cheri. You keep us informed and on our toes. I'm referring to the constant bantering. I've been wasting too much time responding to every comment on my posts, when I would be more productive knocking on the doors that count.

Oh, I understand, Prima, but as you said, it is too easy to just banter here when that is time that could be spent productively contacting our congresspeople. However, I think it is also healthy to vent and have dialogue in venues such as this, otherwise we would all blow gasgets I'm afraid. Well, some already have it appears....

Cheri: Ditto what Prima Donna said. I didn't mean to infer that all you do is post here. I realize how active you are. LOL.

All the identified problems that you cite with the current system are reasons to do something but they do not logically infer the unproven, costly, government-controlled Obamacare solution. Finding and fixing the reasons that the free-market system does not work as well in health care as it does in virtually every other area of American business/life will yield a healthier, freer, cheaper, and more effective system.

For an alternative view see http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977785021

Well, now, we saw how you folks fixed the financial markets, didn't we. Free markets are only free for the rich, the rest become victims of their greed.

Exactly Ron. Talk about rationed care..that's what we have now, and it too is only for the rich, if you want the best care. It's time to try something different that isn't all about greed.

and THAT my friends IS the bottom line. Free market lifts some while it's foot in on the neck of the MANY! Ron.................well stated!!!

Ron, thanks for this contribution.

I would much rather have Government overseen healthcare than free market... where those with financial "might" rule... Health care is NOT a commodity! It’s a human essential.

You are all apparently willing to trade away your liberty in exchange for the unproven "claim" that government will deliver to you a better health care system. Where is the evidence that it is capable of such a feat? Please don't say Medicare as it is financially unsustainable.

//Finding and fixing the reasons that the free-market system does not work as well in health care as it does in virtually every other area of American business/life will yield a healthier, freer, cheaper, and more effective system.
// So why hasn't it?

If the government restricts the insurance companies' ability to enrich themselves at the expense of my health, my liberty will be just fine, thank you. And Medicare has been criticized as "financially unsustainable" for its entire 45-year history, yet it has saved and/or lengthened the lives of countless seniors.

The questions I'd ask you, Ken, is: why aren't you angry that you pay more than twice as much for healthcare as the citizens of other industrialized nations, yet receive care that is rated #37? And why are you so he**-bent on jeopardizing your health and that of your loved ones on the "claim" that your insurance will cover you? It has nothing to do with liberty; it has everything to do with ending the insurer's stranglehold on our healthcare system.

Utilities have a "stranglehold" on electrical rates and airlines have a "stranglehold" on airline travel yet neither has high prices. Life Insurance and auto insurance are both extremely competitive. What is the regulatory climate in which health care insurers operate and how does it differ from other types of insurers? What aspects of that regulation promote competition and what aspects inhibit competition, etc? These are the types of questions that need to be asked and answered before you can validly vilify the health insurance industry.

I'm angry that a leftist administration would ignore the negative impacts of regulation and mandates and instead publicly trash those affected industries so that it can garner support to move legislation that will increase the central-planning and government control over the people. I'm not saying that our system is ok, I'm just saying that no case has been made for "shucking" it (instead of repairing it) in exchange for an unproven government system that performs poorly everywhere some version of it has been tried.

Life Insurance and auto insurance are both extremely competitive.

Um-m-m-m... no, they're not. If they were, they wouldn't be murdering and bankrupting American citizens to pay multi-million dollar bonuses to their CEOs.

Chuck,
It is fine for you to be a rabid anti-capitalist (I'm pretty sure you share that characteristic with the President) but who exactly have the life insurance and auto insurance companies killed and/or bankrupted?
And while we're at it, shouldn't we just have glorious government ownership/control of all business? That way the evil profit motive can be a thing of the past and all will live in peace and harmony each giving what he can and taking what he must...........?

Auto insuraance industry is exempt from price fixing laws.... they all know what each other charges... and they hate to (in their own words) "Leave money on the table"... Life insuranc industry is a joke.. only term life is price competitive.. and it is used as just a hook to get you into more profitable types.... only 3% of term policies are in force at the time of death.

OK, rather than having you guys trash one industry after another with bogus claims and charges of murder, what is an American industry that you LIKE; OR are you are really as anti-capitalist as you seem to be? BTW, if you make your monthly premium payments, the insurance policy will remain in force. Is that the fault of the insurance company?

Excellent fact-based reporting, Cheri. The insurance industry stronghold is even worse that I had thought.

There are two excellent articles addressing this very issue in the August 17 " Business Week", The L.A Times. Check them out.

Thank you. This is one of the best articles I have seen on the subject.
Now where are the president and congress? Where are the people we elected to fix this?

Mary Ann I think Congress is still trying to figure out whats in this for them.

Mary Ann:

There's an old Texas saying: "You gotta dance with them that brung ya."

If they don't do what we elected them to do, make sure that they understand that they're outta here.

Right on, Jim! Fire the sunsaguns!

Problem is, all that happens when you throw the basterds out is you just get a new crop of basterds.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as casting a vote. Much as I'd like to leave it to the elected officials, we have to stay engaged. Guess that's what's meant by government of, by and for the people. Makes me tired just thinking about it.

cheri I agree this is one of the best articles written about healthcare.

All the BS out there is amazing.

All the BS isn't out there, it's on one channel, and in their heads. LINK

Yer right on the money there...............should be law that ALL talking heads are hooked up to lie detectors. ...and tazers for good measure!

Question: What is the profits of health insurance companies? People keep using this huge percentage of increases, but the only figures I can find say that the average insurance company only makes 3.3% profits. If so, they must have been making next to nothing with these huge increases everyone posts.

I've also seen recent stories that the number of bankruptcies caused by health care bills has been inflated by people with a cause. If a bankruptcy has any medical bill for any amount ($50, $200, whatever), it's being used as one of the "bankruptcies caused by medical bills" statistics.

Republicans have been making health care reform suggestions for years - having to do with costs, not taking over our health care. In fact, while we all know that Obama didn't do much voting, he did manage to vote against any health care reform suggested by Republicans. Imagine that.

Here's what Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) says. "I want Americans to be clear that I have introduced major healthcare reform every year I've been in the Senate. Barack Obama did not introduce any that I'm aware of. He voted against Republican reforms that would have made it less expensive and more accessible for individuals to have their own insurance if they didn't get it at work," DeMint points out. "He's done everything he can to maintain the status quo so that he could call for government intervention -- and we need to expose that to the American people."

Fact: Other countries - like the UK and Canada - are finding that their nationalized health care is not sustainable.

Fact: There are good and bad stories about all of other the countries with nationalized care.

Fact: There are good and bad stories about medical care and insurance companies in the U.S.

Fact: The polls still show that the majority of Americans don't want nationalized health care.

Fact: Most people who try to argue about what is in the proposed bill and what is not have never read one line of that bill.

"Republicans have been making health care reform suggestions for years - having to do with costs, not taking over our health care. In fact, while we all know that Obama didn't do much voting, he did manage to vote against any health care reform suggested by Republicans"

Thanks for reminding the readers of the above Marilyn!

"Question: What is the profits of health insurance companies? People keep using this huge percentage of increases, but the only figures I can find say that the average insurance company only makes 3.3% profits. If so, they must have been making next to nothing with these huge increases everyone posts."

I think, after our last go round, we both know where you go for your facts and figures.

"I've also seen recent stories that the number of bankruptcies caused by health care bills has been inflated by people with a cause. If a bankruptcy has any medical bill for any amount ($50, $200, whatever), it's being used as one of the "bankruptcies caused by medical bills" statistics."

I'm sure you have seen those stories, and I'm pretty sure I know where you've seen them.

"Republicans have been making health care reform suggestions for years - having to do with costs, not taking over our health care. In fact, while we all know that Obama didn't do much voting, he did manage to vote against any health care reform suggested by Republicans. Imagine that."

Like the prescription drug program that was purposely passed to bankrupt Medicaid and Medicare? Yeah, some of us know what those health care "reforms" consisted of, Marilyn.

"Here's what Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) says. "I want Americans to be clear that I have introduced major healthcare reform every year I've been in the Senate. Barack Obama did not introduce any that I'm aware of. He voted against Republican reforms that would have made it less expensive and more accessible for individuals to have their own insurance if they didn't get it at work," DeMint points out. "He's done everything he can to maintain the status quo so that he could call for government intervention -- and we need to expose that to the American people.""

Demint has introduced several proposals, all aimed toward not fixing what is wrong with the health care scenario here, but with keeping the insurance status quo. He has said "I think health care is a privilege. I wouldn't call it a right." I think we all know who Mr. Demint answers to.

"Fact: Other countries - like the UK and Canada - are finding that their nationalized health care is not sustainable."

That is not a fact, as we found out in our last session, but the propaganda of conservatives in those countries.

"Fact: There are good and bad stories about all of other the countries with nationalized care."

Of course there are, and we know who's spreading the bad ones, and why, don't we?

"Fact: There are good and bad stories about medical care and insurance companies in the U.S."

Yeah, good and bad about the medical care, but mostly bad about the insurance companies.

"Fact: The polls still show that the majority of Americans don't want nationalized health care."

But they overwhelmingly support a public option. You always seem to forget that fact, while you're listing your propaganda.

"Fact: Most people who try to argue about what is in the proposed bill and what is not have never read one line of that bill."

First of all, I doubt you have either, and there is no final bill at this time, so no one can read what doesn't exist.

Let's see...the Divine Ms M. has gone from Health Insurance Companies making only 3% profit to now making 3.3% profit. ANY corporation making that kind of profit would have been doomed a LONG time ago. So we can dispense with Ms. M's phony figures.

So how much do they make, Spartan? Liberals love showing that they've increased 428%, but they don't ever say what the profits are. So that must mean they're really low. :)

Yes, Ron, we have discovered that the UK and Canada are in financial trouble. We've also found that there are plenty of people not getting the care they need in both countries.

Let's start with your first lie by using just one example. Humana's NET profit increased 68% in just the first six months of this year. The industry as a whole averages 35-45% profit. How else would they be paying dividends to their shareholders! NOBODY is going to invest in a company with a 3% profit margin! So, AGAIN...we can dispense with your first lie! (I will post my sources when you post yours!)

Second Lie...Canada and the UK are NOT in financial trouble! Far from it! Here is a little TRUTH about the Canadian Health Care System!

The "care they need" does not include elective surgery, Marilyn. sorry.

Marilyn tried to say Canadians pay 50% in taxes to fund socialized medicine on our last encounter, when the maximum federal tax rate (the only tax that pays for health care) is 29%. A figure much lower than our own. Fact has an alternate meaning with this one, I'm afraid...

'THIS' one speaks in the Collective 'we' like it has some magical weight or relevance that should impress or give status to all utterances emanating from that direction. Dedicated but deluded comes to MY mind.
Irritates me no end since Joe Scar uses that creepy tactic every morning but gives no opportunity for others to OPT out of HIS little imaginary group!

Marilyn, where DO you get your information that you give to us? How can you expect us to believe you?

AETNA - Headquarters: Hartford, Connecticut 2007 Profits: $1.831 billion 2007 CEO Total Compensation: Ronald A. Williams, $23,045,834

Aetna has a long history in the business of insurance. Founded to sell life insurance in 1850, it became the first insurance company owned by stockholders to go into the health coverage business.

Infamous For: “Underwriting Discipline” In 2007, Aetna applauded itself for its low “medical loss ratio”--the percentage of revenue it “loses” to paying for health care. (Sensitive to public relations, the industry now calls this a “medical benefit ratio.”) “Our commercial medical benefit ratio of 79.2% for the fourth quarter and 79.5% for the full year reflected solid underwriting discipline and our focused efforts in the area of medical management,” CEO Ronald Williams told investors in February, 2008.

Translation: We are proud to spend less than 80 percent of premiums on health care by avoiding unhealthy enrollees and keeping a lid on services.



CIGNA - Headquarters: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2007 Profits: $1.115 billion 2007 CEO Total Compensation: H. Edward Hanway, $25,839,777
Like some of the other big players, CIGNA is a multinational business, with branches around the world, from South Korea, to Europe, to Chile. Infamous For: “Limited Benefit Polices” CIGNA has been a leader in “limited benefit policies”--barebones coverage with caps on benefits. The company describes its Starbridge Choices plan this way: “Starbridge Choices is a limited-benefit medical plan that meets the day-to-day needs of today’s hourly workforce at a price that fits their financial situation.”

CIGNA picked up its Starbridge products when it purchased StarHRG from HealthMarkets in 2006. (HealthMarkets’ MEGA Life and Health, which targets the self-employed, has been investigated across the country for shady sales practices and shoddy coverage.) “When people like me and people in our industry initially saw these offerings, we were kind of embarrassed by them,” Bill Crimmins, a “wholesaler who connects insurance companies to brokers,” confessed to the Indianapolis Business Journal on November 19, 2007.

Translation: You get what your limited wages can pay for—stripped down coverage that may not be worth the paper it’s written on.



UNITED HEALTH - Headquarters: Minnetonka, Minnesota 2007 Profits: $4.654 billion 2007 CEO Total Compensation: Stephen J. Hemsley, $13,164,529
Your health insurance company may belong to UnitedHealth without you even knowing it. Oxford? PacifiCare? IBA? AmeriChoice? Evercare? Ovations? MAMSI? These insurers are all part of the UnitedHealth behemoth, which also owns Ingenix, a health care data company, and other health-care related businesses. Infamous For: “Hand in the Cookie Jar” UnitedHealth hit the headlines in 2006, when the company’s then-CEO, William McGuire, was fingered in a stock options scandal. Though he ultimately returned $620 million, he managed to keep a comfortable $800 million. Forced out of his job, he handed the reins over to Stephen Hemsley, his “trusty chief operating officer” who joined UnitedHealth from Arthur Andersen, the accounting firm that closed shop in the wake of the Enron scandal. Turns out Mr. Hemsley was more involved in the stock options scandal then previously thought.

UnitedHealth’s grasping hand is also getting slapped by New York State General, who says he intendeds to sue the company for systematically forcing patients to pay more than they should when using doctors and hospitals outside their insurer’s networks.

Translation: We’ll use all our resources to make sure you don’t get the benefits you paid for and give our top execs big money for doing it so well.

YES THIS IS A REPRINT FROM http://www.insurancecompanyrules.org Go there to learn about Humana; Healthnet, Coventry; Wellpoint

She is another DRT.. I posted the profits.... she wont accept that either

So you've posted the profits in dollars. What is the percentage of profit.

When we were talking about the huge dollars the oil companies had in profits last year, it finally came out that they were only 6-8% profits - not huge. What I've read says that insurance companies have 3.3% profits. Do you have a different number than that?

Ron, as I explained to you repeatedly - and I'm sorry you don't understand - we were talking about Quebec and their income tax is 48%. You're quoting national income tax. You also have to add on income tax that each province charges. Nice try.

Jesus! NOBODY can be this dense! Someone could hold a steaming pile of cow dung in front of you and YOU would claim it was Apple Pie!

lolol....I just spewed my iced tea on my keyboard...thanks, Spartan...it's been a rather dismal day and you just brightened it!

The industry average ROI is above 18% and that is after everyone gets thier little takes to deflate the numbers... Most business would love a 15% roi or less

I didn't post profit in dollars. I gave percentages...a fact conveniently glossed over by our pageant contestant in her response to "Just How Bright ARE You"?

Humana is a hospital, not an insurance company. Dexter is for insurance companies or the health care industry as a whole? If you do the health care industry as a whole, and have Big Pharma in the mix, the number is not representative of what insurance companies earn in profits.

Spartan, I've looked and looked at the tons of information you copied and pasted from somewhere. What is the percentage of profit for the average insurance company?

Sorry, Spartan, I guess that was Dexter. So where is your post about the percentage of profits for insurance companies?

Scares the heck out of me when maryland uses the word "facts" as it it obvious she/he does not have any idea of the meaning of the word.

Marilyn,

Humana Inc. (NYSE: HUM), founded in 1961 in Louisville, Kentucky, is a Fortune 500 company that markets and administers health insurance. With a customer base of over 11.5 million in the United States, the company is the largest (by revenues) Fortune 500 company headquartered in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, and has a market cap of over US $13 billion, $25.2 billion in revenue, and over 26,000 employees nationwide. Humana markets its health insurance services in all 50 U.S. states, D.C., and Puerto Rico, and has international business interests in Western Europe.

During the mid-1970s, the company used a fast-track construction process to complete and open one hospital a month. So they are an Insurance company that owns and operates hospitals. How is that for having your hand into the whole pie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humana

Thanks for that info, Nanina!

Yes, thanks, Nanina. I've never heard of Humana as an insurance company, just as a hospital system, in many places where I've lived.

Spartan, where are you getting your figures for profit percentages? Everything I've read tells a much different story. Yes, Big Pharma makes big percentages. But nothing I've read says that the insurance industry does. One of my relatives works for a life insurance company and their profits also range from 3-4% and have for the past 4 years. I've heard the same about health insurance companies.

Excellent article. Very informative.

Everyone should read about this:
http://burr.senate.gov/public/

The Patient's Choice Act.
No one knows about it, cause Obama and the Demos
want to keep the Republicans out of it.
How fair is that? what about Obama promising
to be fair to both parties.
We NEED reform, not more Gov. control.

Fair denotes an effort on both sides, Kelly, and what Obama has gotten from Repugs is NO, NEVER, NOT GONNA HAPPEN. If they are shut out of the process, they have no one to blame but themselves. And about freakin' time, too.

Amen RON

For those few unenlightened posters above re the BUSH wonderful prescription Drug boondoggle. I get ONE medicare prescription a month. SPIRIVA for COPD. I have a 6.00 co-pay and Medicare pays 175.00 for it. On the package it tells me it is Made IN Germany. Now explain why, before I was on Medicare I went w/o needed medication because I was not allowed to buy this from Canada at a fraction of the price yet the Government gets it from Germany!

Excellent article, Cheri! No matter how much you speak the truth there will always be some a** clown who wants to dispute it!

Excellent article.

Superb article!

Strong arm it through!!

This is so well done it hurts.

Is there a place to order little teeny tiny r/w&b no bigger than a spot bandaids imprinted with "this is the GOP answer to health care" LOL

You mean they really do have a health care plan? Who knew?

Great post.. very accurate and to the point.... have you ever noticed the oppostion never offers facts like these? They NEVER offer hard facts......

They prefer to make things up.

Why use facts when lies will do? It's easy to make up lies but hard to look up facts which may not even agree with the conclusions previously decided upon. This happens to some degree by both sides but overwhelmingly by the medical industries protecting their scams.

Great post and some excellent comments filled with facts.

I saw where a politician wants to read the whole thing before he decides whether to vote for it. Good luck on that. Good article Cheri.

Excellent factual article, Cheri.

I think the plan should be for those that don't want health care reform, they should keep their employer's insurance plan. Open enrolment for the government plan can be once a year. So in January when your employer can't afford the increase in insurance premiums. You'll have to make up the difference or drop the insurance. Hopefully, you are not laid off, because open enrollment for the government's plan is in November.
Those that are on Medicare and Medicaid will become a part of the government plan or do without, oh wait, they are already government programs.
The government program can be staffed by Americans, instead of calling the 1-800 number and reaching an employee who's thick accent you can't understand, so you have to call back and try to find someone who you can understand a little.
It may sound harsh, but it is the best bet for people to really understand, if they go bankrupt, they can chalk it up to a life lesson.

Good link from Congressman Adam Schiff: www.familiesusa.org

check it out!

In no other industrialized nation do 20k people die because they can't see a doctor? Do you know how fabricated that sounds? How does one compare nations with a quarter of our population and usually far smaller to get stats like that? Do they actually list cause of death as inability to see doctor? Just like still borns are listed as part of infant mortality here in the States but many other nations do not do so, kind of twists the base for figuring doesn't it?

Please, you list these anecdotal events (without parsing for example in the LA story for illegals) and do not mention anything about Europe's medical problems with it's legals/illegals? You use the Huffington Post as a source?

You mention the depth of lies (only implying it's one sided of course) but fail to mention the one key aspect of the entire debate that is POing and scaring even some of your supporters. Never mind the government being quality control or how is any of this justified under our Constitution. Never mind how the one state currently enacting something similar to this is being swamped and its private insurers being crushed.

No, how about just getting the basic dollar figure out and tell us how the true cost. The Administration continually says their plan will save money and cover 40-50 million people. The CBO (who usually is far too conservative with its estimates) totally disagrees on both issues.

There is a lot of disinformation out there but a large part of it is emitting from the White House.

"In no other industrialized nation do 20k people die because they can't see a doctor? Do you know how fabricated that sounds?"

Do YOU have any idea of just how whiny YOU appear with your horrific fear that somebody is going to take something from you?

What they do not know....but, by God, the government's not gonna git it!

Spartan,

No but can you imagine how shrilly that you sound claiming a right to take it? Nor does she bother to answer the question.

Cheri,

Heaven forbid that I or anyone else dispute the government's (and by extension apparently you) right to take from me what I earn.

I understand that neither of you can see any reason for people to resist this plan. That alone says more about your support for this than you think.

Here's a plan. Keep all your money, Charles. Just don't ever ask for ANY government service again in your life! You know, small things like police and fire protection. You can also tell our military that they won't be getting any of your precious money for national defense. You already have some of the worst roads in America, so you can keep those too! And, don't let me catch you driving on MY interstate highways! LOL

I've never seen so many Americans willing to vote AGAINST their own self interest!

We are the only upper income type country that does not have Health Care for Seniors and children.

as well as many in between those ages

Very true.

thanks for setting things straight

Chuck Grassley said today he wanted people to have a choice, which is why he opposes a public health care option.

Just for clarification purposes the thesaurus offers these choices for "option."

Option: Noun
1) choice, alternative, recourse, course of action, power to choose, right to choose
2) Choice, selection, alternative, possibility

....I'm just sayin'

Oh My GAWD....you'll have to try this! It is hysterical. It's called the "Republican Translation Computer" and here is the link: http://dscc.org/decoder.sjs?petition_KEY=176

"Select a Republican and a quote will appear on an opposite screen. You read the original quote then hit Translator, to read what they really mean!"

It's priceless!!!

Wonderful well researched article! Thank you

Marilyn, inaccurate again.

Here's Quebec's tax rates. See for yourself.
http://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/qc.htm

United Health Care reported 150% increase in profits for the second quarter of this year.

Thanks, Baby. I appreciate the info.

"6 Myths About Health Care Around the World

1. It's all socialized medicine out there.

Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance. But many wealthy countries -- including Germany, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland -- provide universal coverage using private doctors, private hospitals and private insurance plans.

2. Overseas, care is rationed through limited choices or long lines.

Generally, no. Germans can sign up for any of the nation's 200 private health insurance plans -- a broader choice than any American has. If a German doesn't like her insurance company, she can switch to another, with no increase in premium. The Swiss, too, can choose any insurance plan in the country.

As for those notorious waiting lists, some countries are indeed plagued by them. Canada makes patients wait weeks or months for nonemergency care, as a way to keep costs down. But studies by the Commonwealth Fund and others report that many nations -- Germany, Britain, Austria -- outperform the United States on measures such as waiting times for appointments and for elective surgeries.

In Japan, waiting times are so short that most patients don't bother to make an appointment.



3. Foreign health-care systems are inefficient, bloated bureaucracies.

Much less so than here. It may seem to Americans that U.S.-style free enterprise -- private-sector, for-profit health insurance -- is naturally the most cost-effective way to pay for health care. But in fact, all the other payment systems are more efficient than ours.

U.S. health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs in the world; they spend roughly 20 cents of every dollar for nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing. France's health insurance industry, in contrast, covers everybody and spends about 4 percent on administration. Canada's universal insurance system, run by government bureaucrats, spends 6 percent on administration. In Taiwan, a leaner version of the Canadian model has administrative costs of 1.5 percent; one year, this figure ballooned to 2 percent, and the opposition parties savaged the government for wasting money.

4. Cost controls stifle innovation.

False. The United States is home to groundbreaking medical research, but so are other countries with much lower cost structures. Any American who's had a hip or knee replacement is standing on French innovation. Deep-brain stimulation to treat depression is a Canadian breakthrough. Many of the wonder drugs promoted endlessly on American television, including Viagra, come from British, Swiss or Japanese labs.

Overseas, strict cost controls actually drive innovation.



5. Health insurance has to be cruel.

Not really. American health insurance companies routinely reject applicants with a "preexisting condition" -- precisely the people most likely to need the insurers' service. They employ armies of adjusters to deny claims. If a customer is hit by a truck and faces big medical bills, the insurer's "rescission department" digs through the records looking for grounds to cancel the policy, often while the victim is still in the hospital. The companies say they have to do this stuff to survive in a tough business.

Foreign health insurance companies, in contrast, must accept all applicants, and they can't cancel as long as you pay your premiums. The plans are required to pay any claim submitted by a doctor or hospital (or health spa), usually within tight time limits. The big Swiss insurer Groupe Mutuel promises to pay all claims within five days. "Our customers love it," the group's chief executive told me. The corollary is that everyone is mandated to buy insurance, to give the plans an adequate pool of rate-payers.

The key difference is that foreign health insurance plans exist only to pay people's medical bills, not to make a profit. The United States is the only developed country that lets insurance companies profit from basic health coverage.



6. America has "the finest health care" in the world.

We don't. In terms of results, almost all advanced countries have better national health statistics than the United States does. In terms of finance, we force 700,000 Americans into bankruptcy each year because of medical bills. In France, the number of medical bankruptcies is zero. Britain: zero. Japan: zero. Germany: zero."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778_pf.html

Thanks R.F. Great points....we just need to get this information out to counter all the all the misinformation and out right lies. It seems to be an uphill battle, because it appears that many find the lies much more interesting.

Here's my two cents on the co-op plan vs. a public plan: The former is reliant upon hope--a hope that somehow insurance companies will see the light and play buy a set of principals, or keep some promises; the latter ensures the field play by a set of principals.

Without the public plan insurance companies will cheat. They will find loopholes. We learned this last year during the financial meltdown. Big businesses cannot be relied upon to police themselves or do what is right. They are beholden to their stock holders, not a set of morals.

Wake up America before republicans and lobbyists pull the plug on us all.

Thanks, Sean for bringing up the co-op. I certainly hope that pointless idea shrivels up and dies. You are exactly right, insurance companies will not police themselves. Too much greed.

By the way. You don't think big insurance companies don't have the where-with-all to undermine little co-ops? Think again. Think big oil. Others play in that market because they allow them to just so much as they don't upset the apple cart. If they do, they buy them up and shut them down.

Those who really want health care reform have already compromised enough with republicans. There is no reason the majority of Americans should give up on their desire for a choice of a public health insurance option. We have already given up Single Payer Universal Health Care. It's time for the right to meet us half way and support the public health insurance option.

The right never, ever meets halfway. They will continue to boycott any plan floated by President Obama or the Dems. Wouldn't matter if it's the best plan in the world.....if it has a hint of helping out the common man instead of big business, and therefore lining their own pockets, they are not interested. Greed is their first, middle and last name.

The right never, ever meets halfway.

Amen, Cheri.

Now that Ted Kennedy has died , I am afraid health care reform is giong to die also.
Way too much money for polititians, dem and repub, to let it pass.

Maybe if every American would donate $100 dollars to a fund for them we could buy back our government and country.

$100 times 300,000,000 , enough?

I'm afraid the insurance companies and big PHARMA would still have more....

It is a sad day indeed for our country to lose such a wonderful statesman. Although he was born to privilege he always fought for the rights of those with lesser income. As long as I can remember there have been Kennedy's involved with American politics. I am not sure there is any other family that has left such a mark on our country's political landscape.

May Edward Kennedy rest in peace with the rest of his family. He was a champion for human rights and liberals all over the world. He dedicated his life to fighting for the "little man." In so doing, he gave a voice to those who did not have enough money to have their own voice be heard. Edward Kennedy fought the good fight. Sometimes he lost, sometimes he won, but at least he fought. His legacy, like his brothers legacies, will live on.

As we are all now in the midst of what Edward Kennedy called "the battle of his lifetime," let us remember that he fought the insurance industry, sadly to no avail, his whole political career. He believed that health care to all was not a political battle to be won but an inalienable right to be realized. Let's all remember that as we continue to fight for public health care.

I cannot think of a better argument against bipartisanship than the comments of the people against health care reform. Their lies, their mulish insistence on repeating these lies when they're corrected, their childish rejoinders (not to mention icons), their utter ignorance, and their outrageous greed and selfishness are enough reason to say To hell with them. I almost wish the President could see the stupidity on this site; it might make him say "What a display of self-righteous, dishonest fools. Let's force this through."

But, I cannot think of a better argument against bipartisanship than the comments of the people for health care reform. Their lies, their mulish insistence on repeating these lies when they're corrected, their childish rejoinders (not to mention icons), their utter ignorance, and their outrageous greed and selfishness are enough reason to say To hell with them."

The Dems have wanted to push this through for years, whether or not anyone was for it, Kris. Dick Armey was interviewed on Fox the other day, and he said when Hilliary was trying to get this through, the Dems on the committee said, "Americans are going to have nationalized health care one day, whether they want it or not."

Is that really the way you want the US to work? It's not the way it's supposed to work.

"Dick Armey was interviewed on Fox the other day"

Well, THAT'S an intelligent conversation ender in and of itself! LOL

It doesn't get much more toxic than Dick Armey right now.

You are so right, Spartan....the conversation is dead in the water before it even begins.