We argue and debate here on Gather. Short rants and long screeds. We tell each other how right we are, and how wrong they are.
I did my best to persuade everyone I could reach on Gather to send e-mails to the House, Senate and the President on Health Care. I hoped they'd support it, but I mostly cared that they spoke up. I doubt anyone did it on my account.
I read, responded to and sometimes ridiculed conspiracy theories, and sometimes I got really mad. Case in point... vaccines. I spent DAYS ranting, blogging and arguing about the idiocy of refusing vaccines for your kids. My bet is that I changed zero minds (well, ONE person said I'd changed the way she thought about some things). But the proponents of hiding from the vaccination man are increasing nationwide. Why is that, d'you reckon?
I think it's because fear negates judgment for most folks, and nonsense fear has been loudly proclaimed across the land by popular TV personalities. Books are written by renegade doctors who make themselves the leaders and gurus of this nonsense non-medicine. It's a power trip for them. By virtue of their medical degrees (otherwise distrusted by the gullible upon which they prey), their betrayal is hailed as salvation.
When this year started, over 80% of the public endorsed health care reform, WITH a public option. They understood that burdening our businesses with the legacy costs of health care was making them non-competitive, and they sympathized with the 40 million plus uninsured. Today we're at 50-50, but it's beginning to look like we may be gaining at the government level.
Did ANYTHING written by ANY of us about ANY of that have ANY impact?
Probably not. But I enjoy some of it, the points mount up, and I move on.
Mebbe I'll stick to stories for a while.
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And as for vaccines? I think it's that many people are doing their own research and figuring out that in spite of the President's fear mongering by declaring this "an emergency", it's not really.
None of us should ever want people to believe as we do just because we're persuasive. We should want them to do research, to view news reports from various sources, and to make up their own minds. I believe our discussions prompt some people to do just that.
Thank goodness we don't all believe exactly the same things in the same way. What a boring world it would be if we did.
And what boring posts and discussions we would have. :)
People who take the time to post or comment have already formed ideas and have no interest in learning anything. Some just like to see their letters in print to a public. SOme like the egotism and paltry rewards of points. Some think they are the next Hannity or Limbaugh. Some are tabolid junkies who want to believe any bombast.
I do believe that some, including Marilyn, represent a tiny and noisy segment of the public. Reading the diatribes of her and the other fringers does offer a clue in the pitiful reasoning and ideological blindness of their ilk, for whatever that is worth, which ain't much politically or intellectually.
Important Information on Swine Flu
My question- did you both get the H1N1 flu vaccine or are you just flapping here. I will quote you Chuck, "I have to keep reminding myself.. Ya kain't fiks stoopud!"
Doctors speak out about H1N1 VACCINE DANGERS
2nd. I have seen some folks change their minds in my postings so it does happen from time to time. I also saw folks ghost my postings, so if you are more factual then you are listened too.
3rd. If you like fighting then you will always have a fight here. Mental Battle of witts.
4th. If you are spreading lies then you do no-one any service. And understand this Yes a lie can travel the world before the truth even gets out of bed, but the truth will still triumph byt force of reason and your creditablity is lost. So less folk will stand-up with you. Be careful, please!
Vaccines do work! If you want to go back to pre-vaccines years it wasn't too long ago! pre-1950's. If you need to remember there was a discussion on vaccines this summer, several days, everything that was brought up against the formulation, when you looked at the ingredients, the Ingredient was in response to an AD (After Death) and the added expense was made to stop deaths. The principle of vaccination is simple, get the T cells to recognize the virus so you immune system is looking for the virus. In healthy Humans that is all that is needed to give you an upper hand and limit the severity of the infection. Regular immunizations actually help in reducing severity even when an exact vaccine to the specific virus isn’t given, if there are common protein and sugar markers, there still is a cross over effect, but sometimes viruses have new markers now there is no cross over effect, when there is totally new set of markers, body isn’t looking for, there lies the problem. Older folks who have been more exposed to more infections 30’s to 50’s each immune system exposure build a T cell memory, because of the increased chance of a close cross over marker healthy folks in this group will have a better chance milder case, while younger 0 to 20’s will be more apt to get the most severe cases. This group is what vaccines are aimed for. Very old, already weak and sick are at risk too vaccine or not, but they are better off with self quarantine measures. If you noticed many hospitals are not letting folks have visitors for that reason. Did this help in your decission?
Vaccines are temporary thus the reason why people get flu shots every year, what they put into their bodies is worse than the affliction. So far, no one who is pushing this vaccine here has said they themselves have gotten it. Have you?
Chuck L.
Thanks for interesting post.
You wrote :
"I think it's because fear negates judgment for most folks, and nonsense fear has been loudly proclaimed across the land by popular TV personalities. "
This is true not only for vaccines but for everything, including the Health Care Proposals of Intelligent Members of Congress.
This is true for Wars and for Racial Strifes and for all bitter conflicts and bitter disagreements.
People are afraid of being alone in a Minority Opinion. They always want to be with the Majority ... and are afraid of being criticized.
Of course there are souls filled with courage, valor and bravery. .... Some of them here in Gather.com
I tell this to all people in Gather.com : don't be afraid if people don't like your article or post, if nobody comments or you have very few visits or not a single soul.
The quality of an article is not measured by the number of comments or visitors.
There are wonderful articles in the Internet that almost nobody reads, waiting for an intelligent reader.
And there is a Big Mountain of Garbage, about Celebrities, sports, humans sins and frailities that has millions of readers, commments, visitors and fans.
Please continue your fights related to Health, vaccines, prevention or the Health Care Bills in Congress.
Vicente Duque
Why didn't anybody tell me?
Please have patience with many, as I understand how they think, and why they think it. I was one of them, and I know they were really raised in it from the cradle. It's a cultish mindset.
But also, do give yourself the occasional breather from the intensity involved with even superficial contact with those indocrinated with such a mindset. Your other writing...the stories...they are so good. Keep them coming, too.
I'll keep writing the stories (got a series goin' on a ghost POV at the moment), but it seems I'm addicted to the political stuff. Mebbe I'll restrict myself to commenting for a while.
Please keep up the good work.
as to the vaccine, I believe that polls indicate that a majority of americans believe that the vaccines are safe. But a large minority, around 40%, disagree. I think it's partly due to mistrust of Obama- sadly. A few children will die because their parents made the wrong choice- the choice to deny science.
Those folks aside, there's a constant drumbeat of anti-vaccine nonsense in this country, and there has been for a generation. Dunno what they think happened to smallpox, or polio, but for many of them, vaccines are useless for their purpose, and dangerous in their own right... ALL of them.
I felt like replying, are you okay with your child dying? Happened to a lady 2 days ago in the County next to ours, her 6 year old died. Little girl had no risk factors, she just got H1N1 and died.
Hard to have a nice life after that. What do you do with your life?
I often post with the world view of their limited knowledge in mind, but don't know if I have not even changed someones thinking, but I can insert a seed of doubt in their thinking. Perhaps they will heed, perhaps not.
Today, if someone is hurt by the H1N1 vaccine, there will be no recourse, thanks to our government.
I've had mine!
The Swine flu and H1N1 vaccine issues are vexing and puzzling. I always vaccinated my daughter when she was a child. She is 22 now and can make her own decision. Because of conflicting information and questionable sources, I will neither encourage nor discourage her regarding vaccination.
I truly hope and pray that the current shortage of vaccine is not simply a way to pump up panic. We've had just about all the change, shock and awe we can handle this year. If this is found to be a publicity stunt to enforce control, those involved should be tried for treason.
I see conspiracy theories popping up in all directions. Let's not be too quick to dismiss rumors without researching. Other countries have been taken in and taken over in just this way. Anything that is being rushed on us should cause us to step back and consider the issue the same way we would with an aggressive salesman.
Why on EARTH...?!?
Well, your hopes and prayers are answered! The vaccine shortage was inevitable. They started work on the vaccine back when the first wave of H1N1 showed up in Mexico, remember that? And the scientists warned us back then, you are going to be lucky to get adequate supplies of the vaccine on line by November 2009. And so it has come to pass, it's october and surprise, not enough vaccine. But let's keep in mind that there have been alot of people yelling we don't want no stinking vaccine, and the Obama administration has persevered and ponied up the money for it anyway.
I think that was a good call.
I think you have to hear the whole truth and make up your mind.
BTW, my son and my husband have both been innoculated with the flu vaccine and both are healthy and fine. I am getting mine soon. We will get the H1N1 when it is available.
We are going to see some positive results about the media dustups and it is WAY past the time somebody stood up for our right to be told what is NEWS and what is just talking heads blowing smoke up our butts!
So sad George was done hard by the world all his life, now he is making someone pay, but no one will listen!
The good part is, the many friends that i did stay connected to, though different in opinion on every level from me, we had wonderful educated debates. But that is not speaking for the majority. But consider the sources.
At any point, regarding your article, because of the way the media feeds off of us, specifically our fear, it's extremely hard to discern the truth adn I can't really blame anyone for questioning the validity of the flu vaccine. I do disagree though, that parents should refuse vaccines for their children. I think this swine flu is being blown out of proportion, or H1N1 (so we don't offend any pigs out there), the regular strain of flu has claimed more lives than the H1 or even the bird flu (a thousand pardons to any aviary fowl out there).
Also, with health care, there is no doubt there is need for a change. I gave up trying to keep up with all of its alterations and editing of the health care bill, I figure I would just wait to see what they come up with. I agree with socialized medicine, it works in New Zealand and in other countries, we're the only country without it.
The problem with the discussions/debates on Gather is that they're son INTENSE. Very short on data... very long on belief, opinion and rumor.
People who want to "argue" their point are usually repeating what they've heard on FUXNEWS and I'm not interested in that crap. Rarely do they have any words of value or original thought.
I'm trying to figure out what it is that you just don't get and I can't.
Labeling people as having participated in "Books are written by renegade doctors who make themselves the leaders and gurus of this nonsense non-medicine" is pure crap Chuck.
The scientific evidence regarding vaccination is clear Chuck but since you obviously avoid any information that doesn't agree with your vaccine paradigm I wouldn't expect you'd be familiar with any of it.
"I’m amazed by the amount of basic science we don’t know", said Philippe Kourilsky, director of the Pasteur Institute in Paris, "We’ve had many successful vaccines over the past decades but we’ve missed a chance to see how these vaccines work." The assumption that vaccines work by simply producing antibodies is wrong.
Ron Montelaro of the University of Pittsburgh has been studying a HIV related virus in horses, known as Equine Infectious Anaemia Virus, and has found that the vaccinated horses die quicker than the un-vaccinated horses. Montelaro has suggested that the stimulation of antibodies may actually help pull virus particles into the cells they are trying to protect.
There is factual evidence, not anecdotal evidence that vaccines, because they actually bypass the bodies natural immune system, only protect a small percentage of the population and 20-30% is the figure the scientific community prefers to use. There is factual evidence that today the only people that contract Polio are those that were vaccinated for it.
Adjuvants are typically used to boost immune response. Adjuvants are sometimes called the dirty little secret of vaccines in the scientific community, as not much is known about how adjuvants work. Most often aluminium adjuvants are used, but adjuvants like squalene are also used in some vaccines. Today we now equate Squalene with Gulf War Syndrome and the country of Germany has provided a “friendly” vaccine made by Baxter that does not contain “controversial mercury-containing additives or preservatives or Squalene”.
Chuck, pay attention, people die from eating peanuts. Vaccines are no different. We're not all carbon copies of one another.
This subject is too controversial for an intelligent well read person to make the comments you've made which perhaps indicates you are neither intelligent nor well read.
Yeah, she's probably overstating just a tad.
Are we thinking, speaking and acting like the majority or are our processes out of step with the majority? Do we care if we discover we aren't? These issues can be a mind roller coaster. We form our opinions based on many different life experiences, and data such as facts, statistics, research, experts’ opinions, testimonials, analogies, experiences of other people, or those whose opinions we trust or respect.
The opinions expressed by others oftentimes cause us to think further, seek more knowledge on the issue and come to our own conclusion which we can support and be confident with.
I did share the information you posted about Michael Moore but have yet to receive any feedback. That was, however, great information and truly appreciated.
"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good."
Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
and Drug Administration
"The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation."
Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)
"In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease."
Dr's H. Buttram and J. Hoffman (Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)
"All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood
into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia...Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia."
Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics
"Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people...in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated."
Professor George Dick, London University
"Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection."
Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)
"In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises,
there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate
accurately...the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a
deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use."
Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)
"Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose."
Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)
"The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used"
Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA
With reference to Smallpox;
"Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine...Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end."
Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)
"Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated."
Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)
"It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus - and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can't do it."
Dr William Howard Hay (lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)
"Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself."
Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation
With reference to Whooping Cough;
"There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence."
Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow (Here's Health, March 1980)
"My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the
nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others."
Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)
"The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine...it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage.."
Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher (Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)
With reference to Polio;
"Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine, being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible for the major increase in leukaemia in this country."
Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA
"No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to
children"
Surgeon General Leonard Scheele (AMA Convention 1955, USA)
"Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent..."
Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)
"The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway."
Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
and Drug Administration
Wayne McLaren, David McLean, and Dick Hammer were hero's too Rory.
and Drug Administration parts with the mainstream perspective it's time for a reality check BECAUSE the mainstream perspective is PROFIT MOTIVATED and those that part from that perspective are not. There are always fools, not being one of them is more difficult than joining the crowd.