My son turned 19 yesterday and as I pondered his life I was filled with pride at the realization that he has become very interested and concerned with the human condition. But as with youth throughout the ages, he is exploring his own ways of discovery and analysis of the world around him. Recently he shared a Linkin Park song with me that he thought was especially moving. I always knew they were very popular, but I was not aware they were so political. But it was a line from their song “Hands Held High” that motivated today’s article. “When the rich wage war, it’s the poor that die” made me realize it was time to remind ourselves of just how futile and unjust that endeavor called war is.
As I began my research for this article I was astounded by the sheer number of articles from the Right, jumping up and down about how much the US military looks like the rest of America. My first thought was, who said it didn’t? So, I checked out the Department of the Army’s Demographic info web site...
http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/demographics/FY05%20Army%20Profile.pdf
And racially, it does NOT look like America. Among enlisted men, the percentage of blacks was 60% higher than the overall US population. Income statistics on US recruits was nearly impossible to find, but from what I could glean from the exhaustive number of articles on the subject, the vast majority of those doing most of the dying and bleeding come from working class, rural America.
But this is not what the author of the song meant when he said “it’s the poor that die.” And I have to add that it’s no surprise that the some on the Right would go spastic with “proving” that it isn’t true, completely oblivious as to what was actually meant by the statement. Who we are talking about here are the poor, who are invariably left behind when those with means evacuate the battlefield to face what is laughingly called collateral damage. Estimates of civilian deaths in the latest US foreign policy endeavor called the Iraq war range from 30,000 to over 650,000 Iraqis. And of course these deaths are among the poorest of that country because anyone with the means to do so left as American troops entered.
And the poor people who are left to occupy the battlefield are not the only ones to die. War has a way of distracting the whole world, leaving the poor ignored and resources diverted to finance that most inhuman of man’s obsessions.
It was bad enough that we were forced to send our young people to flush out and destroy the criminals that attacked on 911. That at least was a reasonable response to that unprovoked slap in our face. But to abandon that effort to START a war with Iraq goes beyond madness. As sickened as I am about the senseless loss of so many of our fellow American citizens in Iraq, the loss of so many innocent poor people seems beyond evil.
I can only shake my head in disgust and frustration. When will we grow up and realize that war is never the answer. That it is an obscenity that must be avoided at all cost. It’s one thing to be forced into defending ourselves against an aggressor or defend a friend under attack. But to initiate violence to achieve a political goal is unforgivable.
*****************
Devin Barber, Politics Correspondent
Devin’s column, “Left Of The Right” published twice weekly or more to Gather Essentials: Politics is a Blue Collar Democrats take on current political news.
Devin was raised by proud Roosevelt Democrats. Being the son of parents counted among the throng of Americans displaced by the Great Depression has given Devin a deep rooted passion for causes dealing with the poor and the working class.
You can find all of Devin’s columns at http://gather.com/leftoftheright
You can keep up with Devin’s postings and his Gather activity by joining his Gather network. Just click here: http://kiwina58.gather.com and then select the orange “Connect” button on the left-hand side of the page.
You can find Devin and other Political Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other politics experts at Politics.gather.com.
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Comments: 200 ( 1 removed by Devin Barber )
I doubt the term unprovoked is proper. Criminal, unethical, immoral, sure. But to suggest that this was done without provokation seems a little biased. It seems a check into the words THEY used for reasoning might suggest some answers.
All in all, it (military service) has always been a vehicle for poor people, mostly from the heartland, to pull themselves into a better life. It was true in Vietnam and it's still true today. I was surprised at the steady decrease of black enlistments and the huge rise in hispanic enlistments.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Love Spartan's anecdote.
http://www.naomiklein.org/video-audio/video
And as for the poor dieing, as long as there is the mega rich that hold "all" the power now, there will be war. We need to do something to stop the power grab by those same rich warmongers before there is no longer an America.
http://icasualties.org/oif/ETHNICITY.aspx
You say war is never the answer then you say its ok in defense or to help a friend. The days of a country attacking us are over. You will have roague dictoators trying to pull something off, terrorist causing individual acts of agression. How do you in this day and age believe we should deal with those? How do you negotiate with a guy that just wants to cut your head off?
Do you really think it is any wonder why leaders of the terrorist organization Al Axa endorses democrats and sais we should all vote democrat?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57970
"They stay because they like their jobs and want to excell in them." We had a word for them, Lifer. Some were good men some couldn't handle it on the outside. Alot were alcoholics.
"The days of a country attacking us are over." Then why did we attack Iraq.
"These people have made choices acting like they had no choice makes these brave men and women sound like victims."
And Shawn, in a way they are victims, Have you ever talked to a military recruiter. Didn't we send "the army we had, not the army we wish we had". Under protected, and a mission that was a lie.
I completely agree with you. But that doesn't make what I said wrong. You are an example of a true American, but there are some out there, that think it's the easy way. They can just skate on through. You may even know some of this kind.
And BTW, "THANK YOU" from the bottom of my heart for serving "our" country. To many people here forget that.
roam through my web site. There are alot more links like that. it's
www.mystupidamerica.com
The poor want a chance; the military is one place to get that chance. That's why people join; it's a win-win if the country's not at war. The servicemember gets training, experience, and an education, and the country gets someone to stand on the wall.
But the article also was about "collateral damage". Who, among the poor civilians who have been killed, signed up to be a target?
Bring our troops home NOW!!!!!
Class envy galore.
Just another way of degrading any acheivements of the US military.
"Among enlisted men, the percentage of blacks was 60% higher than the overall US population."
So what? No one is forcing anyone to join the military. Rather than use this as a whip against those in the service to our country - why don't you commend them for volunteering?
"the loss of so many innocent poor people seems beyond evil."
Poor hyperbole. There is nothing beyond evil.
"When will we grow up and realize that war is never the answer. That it is an obscenity that must be avoided at all cost."
Then we shouldn't defend ourselves at all? And if you say we should (which you shouldn't because then you would be contradicting your statement) - then I have to ask - do we have to wait for a horrific attack to happen or do we strike first if we know that something is coming our way or could come our way?
War is awful. Living under true tyranny is far worse.
Are we going to be paranoid ? When will the mighy superpower begin to walk a diplomatic road versus being so arrogant?
War is only necessary for defense any other time is not justifiable.
This particular case was not for defense.
My husband was a military officer for 30 years and I know that we never get to hear the truth about anything the government does or why it does it.
That's why I think we should immediately petition the government to declare war on the following countries:
Jordan
Turkey
Pakistan
North Korea
Indonesia
Egypt
Syria
Lebanon
France
Vietnam
Germany
China
If you agree, please tell us what our next plan of action should be.
If you don't agree, maybe you could tell us why we shouldn't protect ourselves from any possible enemy?
You have an obvious gift for writing but why can you not check your facts? This is a volunteer army which consists of a wide range of people. Some go there to change their lives. I head about a former gang member and he said the marines have saved his life. Why is that a bad thing?
Spartan, you are right my spelling is not the greatest. How many languages do you speak? I started up with 4 and am now down to 3.
Douglas, what point are you trying to prove with your lets declare war on these countries? Some of them are allies some are working on becoming our allies. Not sure if you paid any attention to what is going on in N. Korea but they are trying hard to get on our good side. Why...because we stood up to them. Held on to the principle of multi national negotiations even when the democrats (and some republicans who were starving for attention) said we are being ignorant, nothing wrong with bi-lateral talks. Problem is democrats have very short memory. We tried THAT and it sure didn't work. So why don't you say something of substance...no offense.
Patrick, thank you for your service, what options did Saddam give? How many times has he defied countless resolutions. The world asked for unfettered access. What did we get, a tour guide. We wanted to talk to scientist, what did we get, a handler in the room staring at the guy. He threatened neighbors, his own people and quite frankly intelligence indicated that he had WMD's. There were multiple tons unaccounted for from previous inspections, no proof that they were destroyed and I guess as we are finding out now they are showing up in IED's. So they weren't ALL destroyed as Saddam claimed.
Lea, war is never the first option but it should be on the table. During cold war both sides knew that they would not survive a retaliatory strike so it never got to that. Ironically a strong military is what prevented war.
Your arrogance and ignorance is astounding. Have you ever seen a concentration camp? This is a place where millions died because they did not fit into Hitler's idea of a pure race. They experimented on people, put them in compression chambers to see what rapid decompression does...till their bodies blew up. Poked needles into peoples eyes with blue dye to see if you can change someone's eye color. Built a massive wall with concrete barriers then made thousands of people climb the wall only so they could spray water on them when they fell they bodies splattered all over the barriers.
We treat these terrorist better then we treat our homeless. They would love 3 balanced meals a day. Now is it a vacation spot no...but these are criminals who only want to cut your head off. Where you think they should go? What do you think we should do with them?
Also, some comments here falsely insist that "war is not the answer" and waging war to save your homeland are contradictory statements - but they're not. Waging war because you want what another country has is different from defending your country from invaders. To say that they're the same thing is naive at best and disingenuous at worse.
I respectfully disagree with you. If you look at statistics, at least of the ones that have paid the ultimate sacrifice, you will see that the number of officers (presumably they have college education) is unusually high. Also the demographics that Devin cited were completely incorrect. But lets take this a step further... A "underprivileged" person has two choices, live on the street / welfare or "use" the military as an opportunity to better his life. Why is it that when someone makes the much harder decision to enter the military that the left uses that as a statistic AGAINST our military? The gang member I spoke about earlier wrote a book about his days in the gang. He said he would surly have been dead by now but the marine corp gave him the family he never had and saved his life. He served both in Afghanistan and Iraq and now he is an author and motivational speaker helping inner city kids get away from gangs. How is THAT a bad thing?
Facts are facts. These idiots can try to change the facts but they cannot change the truth. Thanks for always saying what is true!
I provided a link to my source and still I don't know my facts. Oh well, what can I say.
I want to let my Republican friends know that the major motivation for this article is not so much the armies that fight the wars, but the poor citizens in whose front yards they do the fighting. And the poor who are ignored and left to languish while the rich are distracted by war.
As far as the US Military is concerned, the web site I linked in the article has all the armies demographics right there for all to see except economic data on recruits. That information, not surprisingly is quite difficult to come by. But not impossible, while it's true that overall the military looks pretty much like the rest of America economically, those who are doing the lions share of the bleeding and dying are Middle and lower middle income, which should be no surprise because that's the way it's been ever since we've been a country and military service is very often a family tradition. But one thing is for sure, statistically if your in the top 10% income, there's very little chance you'll ever serve in the military and virtually no chance you'll be killed in battle.
No one addressed the question I asked. Why is it only when we are at war do people start counting racial numbers in the military. They no longer sentense people to the military. As far as them being victims is concerned. They made the choice to join. I guess they have no other means to get a college education. How about this work really, really hard in school and get good enough grades to get scholarships. I know that's not possible, millions of kids of all races all over the country don't do that every year. Work two jobs and go to school part time. Nope that's not possible. The only way they can get that college degree they want is to join the military. IT IS A 100% VOLUNTEER ARMY. I grew up in a poor family, my parents could not afford to send me to college. My Grandfather was in the army and the navy in two different wars. My father was an Airborne Ranger. I have close relatives that have served in every branch of our military including myself. Everyone of us had choices to make and we made them. I for one am quite tired of people trying to trivalize these men and women's service by trying to make them out to be poor, dupes that had no choice in there current situation. Jeannie B. I remember those ads they were around when I signed up but unless you are a complete idiot (in which case you'd fail the ASVAB and not be admitted to the military) you are well aware upon joining there is a very real chance you could be called to war. Rube D. As usual you are just retarded.
An excellent point by Patrick C, and an increasingly common one.
Carolyn's excellent rejoinder to the blustering false arguments of Dale is priceless:
"Dale: Our camps are not in this country."
No one addressed your idiotic question Shawn, because it is a false premise.
It is typical of the way you "argue': state a lie and ask for responses.
There have been regular reports on the racial compostion of the Armed Forces since the time the Volunteer Army was instituted.
And, there were several dumpster-loads of articles about the racial compostion of the Armed Forces the last time this nation approached full employment in the late nineties.
Every one else knows this, and they are too kind to point out your ignorance.
I notice that no one is willing to respond to your idiocy on your own articles.
You would think that these people would cut off their own left arms being as how they hate anything left so much ... oh, that's right, they are all mouth, maybe they should chew it off ... assuming they could find it.
What a bunch of sick creeps, defend this administration no matter what, support war and killing no matter what ... what a bunch of lame brained excuses and arguments ... if you guys had a brain or an ounce of morality you would realize that you were idiots and just crawl back in your holes and tell each other how much better the world would be if all that were different than you were dead and gone ... dream on Nazi Fascists, it is your type that gives this world nightmares.
http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/kerry_iq_lower.htm
The military doesn't want the draft for many reasons, one of which is that the average american is dumber than the average person in the military. With the draft, we'd just be dumbing down the military. Don't believe me-- about halfway down the link I posted, it shows that the average SAT scores for EVERY BRANCH OF THE MILITARY was higher than the average high school graduate (and let's remember that the average high school graduate nubmer is higher than the average american, because not everybody graduates high school).
Personally, I'm against pulling out of Iraq (notice I don't say end the war because we can't end the war, we'd just end our involvement) because I'm against ending any war that results in more people dying than if we were in the war. Pulling out now would turn Iraq into a Rwanda/Somalia/Kosovo schmorgensbourg that would make any of those situations look like kids play fighting.
Pacifism isn't the answer either.
We have the army and the society we have because it has evolved that way. 100 year ago women and minorities could not vote. Hopefully we are on a road to progress and in another 100 years we will look back and see how wrong we are today.
Disliking war, and liking a nice easy life is great, but that does not mean we can ignore the world and its physical and political realities.
It is positively bizarre how the "left" can go on and put forth the most complicated expensive unproven Rube Goldberg like plans to attack global warming. They can see this threat and run with it even though its entire nature is not yet proven or understood ...
BUT ....
when it comes to a deadly threat that we do understand and have felt and been hit with now - SEVERAL TIMES - all we ever hear is how it is wrong wrong wrong, costs too much, no evidence, we're just doing it for oil, only certain people have to fight, elite criminals that own our society are making money off the war ... and multiplicity of do nothing arguments to a real live threat that is hard to deal with but understood.
No one yet knows what to do about Global Warming ... and believe me it could cost hundreds of times more than the war against Islamic Totalitarianism, and many more people could be affected.
Why is it there is never any balance or rationalism or objective though ... do we just love to sit in front of our computers 7x24 and yell at each other so much. This is not kind of society, democracy or community that the Founding Fathers even concieved of.
People should do a lot more listening and thinking than talking.
So what's your point. That's all true. Well at least some of it is. We never got"hit" by Iraq. And the ones that did "hit" us are still in caves, instead of dead.
One thing about the draft, if too dumb, you could be classified 4 F. So Bush could have been safe either way.
Remember the Dan Rather scandal, the bogus document? The Secretary said that particular document was fake but she did recall a real one. Even Bush sidesteps the question.
"Did you serve your full tour?"
W "I am proud of my service"
"Did you serve your full tour?"
W "I am proud of my service"
"Did you fulfill your obligation to the Texas National Guard?"
W "I am proud of my service"
"Did you ....."
W "Next question!"
KING CHICKENHAWK.
I have a son in college and I think it would do him good.
I see it as a preparation not necessary a committment to go to war.
A person who does not believe in pointing a gun should not have to but he could serve in other areas.
Bush Jr. hid out in the Texas National Guard, and Dick Cheney got 7 count them 7 deferments to stay of of Viet Nam. And then they talk about Patriotism, while knocking down those that did serve in Viet Nam, like Gore and Kerry.
And why did we go to war in Iraq in the first place? It had nothing to do with any of the reasons that they said when they were pushing us into it, as has been shown in the years since they started this war. Will we ever agree what the real reasons were, I don't know, do you?
http://www.unc.edu/~mason/hand.html
The system described there makes aggeressive war (though not defensive war) impossible. It also removes all motivation to use war as a tool of national policy.
If attacked, however, a nation using my system would be very effective in it use of military resources in that it would attack those who cause the problem, not the general population of the offending nation.
Isn't it odd that we say that we fight the war because of the bad things the enemy is doing and then proudly claim to do much worse things. Remember the "good" war, WWII? The evil enemy bombed some of our cities and killed hundreds of innocent civilians. They were very bad. So we bombed their cities and killed thousands of innocent civilians, mostly women and some children, sometimes in a single raid. But that was good, somehow?
Preferred admissions for the children and grandchildren of alumni - affirmative action for the unqualified and over-privileged.
Actually, Carole, that is no longer true.
-"Some of them are allies some are working on becoming our allies. Not sure if you paid any attention to what is going on in N. Korea but they are trying hard to get on our good side."
They are NEGOTIATING. For fuel oil.
HELLO!!!
Anybody home?
I'm pretty sure that you are confused about who is who.
You sited the article as your"Facts" but where did you come up with your math There are 31% more black people represented in the army then in the population. The educational level is higher. The national high school graduation rates are between 70% - 75% pending on who you talk too. In the Army 76% of enlisted have at least a high school diploma. Only 6.9 % have less then a high school diploma the rest of enlisted have MORE education then HS Diplomas. And lets not even talk about Warrant and officers..they blow your statistics out of the water.
Douglas,
Yea democrats have it 100% correct.... Why do you think terrorist groups are endorsing democrats in the 08 elections?
He was smart enough to fool democrats though. Isn't that the party line...bush manufactured intelligence so we voted to go to war? If he is do dumb what's that make democrats?
************************************************************
Spartan, I have tons of respect for you and the service you have given this country both in Vietnam and now, but I do have to remind you that there are a few National Guard units fighting in Iraq this time... I have several co-worker's who have family in Iraq who went over with the Texas National Guard. One of the LVN's who works for us now was a Medic in Afghanistan with the National Guard and his son is currently deployed somewhere in Iraq with his Texas National Guard unit.
But I'm not surprised by most on the Right choosing to argue their issue instead of the one I've brought up. The side of war I described is very ugly and one few want to even see, much less discuss. The raw inhumanity of war is undefendable, so they don't even try.
Very moving, indeed! But, will any of us actually be MOVED? Sure, our emotions have been stirred up, but will any of us actually MOVE, or take any real ACTION to stop this KILLING that's being perpetrated in OUR names? Or will we just continue to sit on our asses at our computers and 'debate' the issues? Is that all we've got left? Wouldn't the people who built this great country be SO proud?..
I can't help but think how we're TRULY deceiving ourselves; how the WAR machine and the CORPORATE machine that supports and profits from it must be laughing their metaphorical asses off about all the righteous indignation we spend so much energy expressing without actually EVER lifting a finger to DO anything... We're playing THEIR game, by THEIR rules, and pissing and moaning about the fact that THEY'RE winning.
I do agree with you. But you need to take that in context. We are NOT killing the majority of civilians. The terrorists are. When will you realize who the REAL enemy is? Terrorist target civilians you do not want to confront them but negotiate with them. You think we should "leave their holy land" and everyone will be happy.
Thats the fundimental flaw with your thinking. We give in, they just take more.
For some one who obviously lacks any actual writing skill whatsoever, to criticize, insult and impugn mine is frankly, embarassing. Self appointed critics like you are simply a major waste of space and time. Your criticism was unsolicited and unwanted and only serves to reveal a very disturbed and egotistical personality.
I am not making specific judgements here. I am pointing out that the rush to war under circumstance where we are not being attacked and we are not directly defending an ally that has been attacked is simply not an option for grown up human beings. The US has been involved in numerous rightous wars that were in defense of ourselves and our allies. World War I & II, Grenada, the first Gulf war, and most recently, Afghanistan. But far too often we've also been involved in wars that were not. Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo, and now Iraq. And just because we are not doing a lot of the direct killing, we opened the door, and even if we only killed one innocent civilian, that is one too many.
Those are NOT WMDs genius . . . they're what was looted from unguarded munitions depots after our invasion. There were NO WMDs and UN inspectors said as much until Georgie kicked them out of Iraq!
"Now is it a vacation spot no...but these are criminals who only want to cut your head off. "
Tell that to the 90% innocent people who were raped, murdered and tortured at Abu Ghraib! They probably aren't fans now.
"Also the demographics that Devin cited were completely incorrect."
Hmmmmm . . . a link to the Army's own info?? Stupid Army SHOULD know better!
"That's why we need a draft. Just look at all the Chicken Hawks all for war as long as some other patriot does the fighting."
Not quite. Cheney spent his deferrment having sex (check his daughter's birthdate) . . . Bush defended Texas from the VietCong for a few days . . . everyone of means finds a way out of it. Where was Rumsfield?? Who in Bushie's Admin. are war veterans?? Thought so.
"We were attacked on our own soil."
Not by Iraq. Why didn't we invade the despotic Saudi Arabian Kingdom? Guess THEY don't want freedom, huh? Currently, they're free to support Al Qaeda and they do!
"And the casualties in Iraq are far fewer than were being butchered by Saddam. "
Once upon a time . . . not anymore. Guess you're not aware of the even worse genocides in Rwanda, Darfur and other countries OR the fact that Saddam was our buddy and WE gave him the weapons to do his dirty work, huh?
"Yea democrats have it 100% correct.... Why do you think terrorist groups are endorsing democrats in the 08 elections?"
Yeah, right. The best thing that could happen to the terrorists is more inane, criminal, corrupt, unethical, illegal GOP strongarming. Georgie is making more terrorists than they could ever recruit without him. They LOVE this guy! Nothing like our current policies to make the world hate us more and love the terrorists more, is there?
"If he is do dumb what's that make democrats? "
Spineless.
"We give in, they just take more. "
Yeah. ...take more of their OWN stuff back. It . . . uhhhh . . . IS their land and oil, right? Ok . . . it was . . . if we give them back their land, next thing you know, they'll want their oil too! Take Take Take . . . that's all they do! LoL!
The poor are dying disproportionately. Facts are facts.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Here is an interesting story I heard on PBS the other day while driving home from out of town about a couregeous American woman.
Sue Downes an American hero
I think the reason you all have to constantly work yourselves up into higher degrees of anxiety and such a fever pitch is so you do not expose yourself to any other ideas that might cause you have to drop this whole charade. There are lots of things wrong with the world and our current President, but not all of them bear on fighting this war.
27,499,638 (July 2007 est.) population of Iraq.
301,139,947 (July 2007 est.) population of the United States of America.
Simple arithmetic:
30,000/27,499,638 = .0011 * 301,139,947 = 331,253
650,000/27,499,638 = .0236 * 301,139,947 = 7,106,902
Would we tolerate this kind of death rate for civilians in the U. S.? This is a horrible conflict. We need to stop this blood shed.
the people of Iraq want us to leave.
What would be wrong with having a general election where all Iraqi citizens decide whether they want us out immediately, to leave in the near future (maybe 6 months),
or want us gradually pull out.
This same question is true in Afghanistan. Apparently we are not going to continue looking for Osama bin Laden, so maybe the people of Afghanistan (all of them over 21)
should vote when they want us out.
We have more important things to do with out money, troops, and resources than
continue fixing problems that cannot be fixed (to our liking) that is in the Middleast.
Maybe Richardson is right, we need to get out ASAP. No democracy can be institured at the point of a gun. Middle-easterners need to decide for themselves IF democracy
is for them - NOT US.
Using your logic US should not have entered WWII. Millions of people died during US bombings of European cities. Yes war is horrible. It affects the weakest of the society but SOMETIMES it is necessary. You and your friends think this war is non justified, I happen to disagree. And we can argue till the cows come home but that will not change the fact that we ARE at war. Now you favor to pull out...let the thugs take over and that might reduce our casualty numbers but will do nothing to strengthen the region, protect the poor etc. Right now we are beginning to see the fruits of securing the country and you just want to give all that up and pull out. I know you do not care a hill of beans about Iraqi's and quite frankly I understand that. But the anti war movement keep ignoring the big picture which is the greater stability of the region. Now Doyle has gotten a lot more humorous these last couple of days but you can't ignore the fact that terrorist publicly say that Iraq is the most important battle for them. It is their oil (Iraqis) but I guess you prefer OBL or Iran to move in. That would be peachy…anyone besides the US right Doyle.
In October of 2001, you could listen to the Rush Limbaugh drones stating they would do anything for 'W". They dashed to the recruiting office to join their buddies. Now their mothers stare down at a grave and wonder why they let them go.
Not sure if you paid any attention to what is going on in N. Korea but they are trying hard to get on our good side. Why...because we stood up to them. Held on to the principle of multi national negotiations even when the democrats (and some republicans who were starving for attention) said we are being ignorant, nothing wrong with bi-lateral talks. Problem is democrats have very short memory. We tried THAT and it sure didn't work. So why don't you say something of substance...no offense
Victor, prior to Bush becoming president, Bill Blinton and his chief negotiator Madeline Albright worked out a deal with the NK's that is tantamount to what we have now. Secretary of State Powell endorsed the plan and said that we should definitely continue with what was achieved. GB jr. comes in and scraps the plans and takes on a hardline approach which then led to the NK's kicking out the UN/IAEA inspectors and eventually detonating 2 bombs. It's at this point that everyone altered their course of action vvs the NK's and came up with something that was already in place 8 years ago.
FYI, when GB jr. became president, he had no idea why south korea was important to the US geo-politically until the Saudi ambassador to the US explained it to him and ended with you have 30,000 troop stationed in Korea.
Also, There were multiple tons unaccounted for from previous inspections, no proof that they were destroyed and I guess as we are finding out now they are showing up in IED's.
Please let me know how Iranian (alleged) made IED's are ending up with WMD material. My understanding is that there are no nuclear, chemical or biologial elements in the IED's. Also, why did we slander and libel Dr. Hans Blix so badly when he said that there was nothing there. Why did all the intelligence services including the Mossad say that there was nothing there. Why was so much fabricated by us and used as an excuse to invade a country. Why did we not listen to the UN when they said they wanted to continue talks. Diplomacy is much much harder but longer lasting than gun boat/gun against your head diplomacy.
What I have said from Day 1 of the invasion is that this will be our Algeria. The only difference being that there are many Algerians that liked their colonizer i.e. France.
Last but not least, I was priviledged to be educated and come from a well to do family, the guys I led were for the most part uneducated and poor.
Victor, for curiosity sake, have you ever been in combat? Have you ever shot to kill or been shot at? Have you ever experience mind numbing fear? Have you ever stuffed a boy into a body bag? If you haven't then all you're saying is mindless babble. War my friend, is very vicious and very cruel. And that is why peace must be given every opportunity to succeed.
While we should always honor the service our brothers and sisters in the military, they are the last one's we should listen to regarding the neccessity of using force. It's like asking a carpenter if you should build a wooden deck or a concrete patio. The carpenter is going to say a wooden deck because that is what he knows.
> you think about the issue of innocent poor people dying
> in wars and dying because of how war distracts the rest
> of us from issues concerning the poor.
Devin, I see this as sad and unfortunate. It is hardly fair,
at least the way we all tend to think of things, but there
is a larger way to view it as well.
Percapita there are a lot more poor people than there
are rich people, so there is one equilizing metric.
Poor people are usually less able for many reasons, just
or unjust. They are able to be taken advantage of by
rich people who can often set them against each other
or convince them of the advantage of working for them.
This is the way of nature, from the smallest one-celled
organism to the largest creature on the planet.
I think it is wrong for someone who does not face this
problem to take such an attitude as you do. As you wrote
in your article, your son does not have to fight in Iraq, or
anywhere else unless he wants to in the US.
Would your son's analog in Iran, Iraq or most of the Islamic
countries have the same luxury?
Clauswitz said that war in the extension of diplomacy by other
means. Anyone looking at the world in total knows that predation
and and force are the norm, and diplomacy, is really the
"other" means, perhaps aside from evolution.
The higher level and more reasonable an entity or group is, the
more likely they are to be able to solve problems reasonably to
both groups satisfaction. There is no point in a lamb negotiating
with a lion though, because there is no practical solution.
So, there is not much practical solution to war when one group
decides to set about a path well-worn in this world of assumed
superiority and right of conquest. You seem to want to say that
it is us, the West, the misguided Imperialists, that is being
the aggressor rather than the Islamic Totalitarians.
I see things differently. I see the Westm far from assuming
personal superiority recognizing that a democratic path of
multiculturalism and tolerance and the system that brings
that about, is a workable sustainable way for people to live
together. The proof is that Muslims are welcomed here to
live mostly as they please in our imperfect but inclusive system.
The opposing side expands, century by century, but intolerance,
by exclusion, but moving chameleon-like into neighboring
territory and then breaking it off it be aborbed into Islamic
intolerance.
The mathmatical modeling of this system is very successful.
Islam is one of the most successful societies on the planet.
But ... does it bring greater freedom and individuality, or does
it win by having the greatest totalitarian system even developed?
I say it does. That is the threat. The threat is bad enough on
a low-tech basis, but becomes a deadly threat when combined
with high-tech weapons, and the ability to use the system of
tolerence and openness in its opponents against them, and
the dependence of its opponents for energy as well.
War follows from the threat, and the war is carried out as it
has always been carried out. Not just based on rich or poor,
but based on value to whatever society is having to fight.
Who do Islamic cultures use to carry their suicide bombers?
One other thing you might consider is the argument of civil
liberties here in the West. Imagine if we lose this fight. I call
militant Islam - Islamic Totalitarianism for a reason. That reason
is that the adherents of this group have no civil liberties. They
are watched and corrected or deleted constantly, based on their
perception of the God and the universe and what it demands
of a citizen.
Even at our lowest point we still structure our beliefs and
conflicts in a way that does not destroy our civil liberties.
I know you will not agree with me, and you will attack me.
Expected, I just want to be able to layout what I think is
logical and makes sense and explains why things are the
way they are.
No reason to improve ourselves since this has been "the way it's always been." I've heard garbage like that all my life and it doesn't fly with me friend. By your logic we should still be burning people we think are witches and using blood letting to cure disease.
Yeah, but I really wanted their take on the issue of poor people and war and they just wouldn't except Bruce who apparently believes that since the poor are the majority here on earth we should just accept that they will represent the majority of dead when we have wars.
> has been "the way it's always been."
That is not what I said. The questions are separate though, and
mixing them together and filling the discussion full of rage and
confusion just ensures that neither goal will be met ... the pure
opposite of civilization is what you are speading the way you
pose your rhetoric and frame your debates.
Poor analogy, Japan attacked us, not Iraq and Gernmany declared war on us. Not even remotely similar!
"It is their oil (Iraqis) but I guess you prefer OBL or Iran to move in."
Good point . . . guess WE should take it.
"The opinion of anyone who has been in the military should be looked at with great skepticism."
Absolutely correct. They are conditioned to execute orders unquestionably.
"They are able to be taken advantage of by
rich people who can often set them against each other
or convince them of the advantage of working for them."
Agreed. That's Devin's point. And the per capita breakdown makes little different to the disproportionate percentages. Better educated and wealthy tend to gravitate toward the Officer's corps and they have lass casualties too.
"You seem to want to say that
it is us, the West, the misguided Imperialists, that is being
the aggressor rather than the Islamic Totalitarians."
No kidding? You mean there was an illegal invasion and occupation . . . but we're not the aggressors. Got it. That said, why did we not invade the despotic Saudi Arabian Kingdom after the 911 attacks? They don't wanna be free I guess?
"Even at our lowest point we still structure our beliefs and
conflicts in a way that does not destroy our civil liberties."
You might want to re-read the 'patriot' act.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
No one does seem to want to address the fact that war kills more poor people in it's collateral damage than rich people. It's an uncomfortable and inconvenient statistic that the pro-war crowd do not know how to adequately assuage.
No one has mentioned (at least as far as I noticed) that the reason the numbers of Hispanics in our military has risen so much lately is because service in our military is a road to American citizenship.
bruce k. - You make one good point, the fact that there are more poor people in this country than rich; and that, alone, does account for more deaths in our military from those who joined to "move up" in class and stature, than those who do not need to join because they already have a pretty high class status.
It is off base to justify the war in Iraq by pointing at the Islamic militants. Saddam's rule had little to do with that religion and noting to do with its militants. In fact, Saddam did not get along with the Islamic militants. He did not want them in his country, was a thorn in their side and an obstruction to their goals.
> war kills more poor people in it's collateral damage
> than rich people.
The hell you say ... EVERYTHING kills more poor people.
for the better for poor people come from rich people as well.
You all seem to have quite a conflict just perceiving reality
without letting your emotions get in the way.
Remember it is not the argument ... it is what
sensible action or remedy can really be taken.
I see none here.