LEFT OF THE RIGHT: We Call It The Great American Dream, But For Some It's Called The Great Big Lie

Elinor,
Thank you so much, your words are an inspiration. My passion for the forgotten, those without voices is exceeded only by my passion for enlightenment. If I can know that I've widened someone's view of the world, even just a little, it is of more satisfaction to me than material possesion could ever hope to achieve.

"And it is why we continue to fight for things like a raise in the minimum wage...."


Ummm..yeah... What good is raising the minumum wage going to do if you're just going to raise everyone's taxes on the other side Devin?

"That is why we Democrats are fighting for things like universal health care."

If Democrats are so concerned with healthcare for American citizens then why won't they talk about the billions of dollars that illegals cost our system in healthcare for which the costs are neevr recovered Devin?

Also why won't the Democrats speak honestly about how much our taxes would actually go up if we instituted some kind of government administered/financed healthcare system. When Democrats speak about it it's in sugar coated generalizations.

"Vote for a Democrat and you'll have free healthcare for everyone...no one will ever suffer again and we will all live happliy ever after."

Not quite!

Some people just want to punch a clock... they live their entire lives like this. Those are the ones who never seem to get ahead even after putting in their forty hours. This is a competitive world and you have to work hard if you want a better life.

Oh sure, anyone who "works hard" is just fine, no need to worry. Because there's a magic fairy that knows who is working hard and who isn't. And she always makes sure that the "hard workers" are ok and she punishes the slackers with financial troubles.

I'm truly happy that your life is not being affected by what I'm talking about Don, but just for a minute, can't you accept that there is unfairness in the world. That there ARE folks out there who are honest "hard working" people who for what ever reason have fallen through the cracks for God's sake? Do you honestly believe we should leave them to their angst and peril like a bunch of animals would leave a wounded member of their pack to die? Aren't you a human being? Don't you think we are capable of better than that?

Dana,
Who said anything about raising taxes.

Citing the illegal immigration issue as a rebuttal to my call for universal health care makes no sense.

Democrats have been open and honest about how universal health care would be paid for, but of course you'd have to have the ability to shut your mouth long enough to hear them.

And I guess your solution is to leave 46 million Americans uninsured while the quality of health care in our country (now ranked 36th in the world and falling) continues to plummit.

Universal health care is something this country should strive to provide for ALL or it's citizens. Quality health care at affordable prices mean that we all have access to excellent care. This in turn would reduce the number of people that are forced to seek Government assistance when they need the Health care system. Surely no one thinks that the current system will adequately provide for the poor or even middle class citizens. And we KNOW that the costs are not going to do anything but continue to skyrocket. To do nothing means that they we will continue to see the same folks plus more on Government assistance.

The candidates have spoke about how they would pay for the system....the problem is that republicans don't like taking the tax cuts back that Bush gave to the rich. Those tax cuts along with all the money he has sent to Iraq could have implemented one of the finest health care systems imaginable.

To not raise the minimum wage is a travesty for ALL Americans. You can either let these people work and make an adequate living on their own or you can keep them on welfare rolls. I personally prefer them out working and making a wage that they can support their family on. Raising the minimum wage will not raise your taxes...it could raise the cost of the goods you buy....but then so does the cost of gasoline.

Which by the way was $1.40 a gallon in the Clinton White House. Not to mention that when the gas prices began to soar, Clinton tapped into the reserves to lower that price....something Bush has refused to do. I wonder why....could it be that he and his entire administration make money off of oil?

Dana, let's forget for a moment that we're all biased due to our upbringing and our situation in life. Let's look at the millions upon millions of kids out there who have no health care, whose parents work an honest job - maybe two or three jobs - to put food on the table and a roof, possibly a leaking one, over their heads. These are the people who maybe didn't get to go to college because it was either too far out of their reach financially or another reason - pick one. These are the people who fix your car when it breaks down, who re-roof your house, who make the parts that go into your exercise equipment in your home gym.

These are the people who can't afford another car when their own breaks down, who can't afford to get a new roof when theirs gets leaky, who don't have time or money to exercise for recreation. These are the people who can't afford medical insurance because their company doesn't offer it, and it's over $2000 a month for a family of four when bought privately. Yet they don't qualify for Medicare. These are the people, whose jobs are given to someone else when they've missed a few days in a row because they or their children were sick and they had to stay home.

These are the people who YOU don't pay a darn dime for in health care because they couldn't afford to go to the doctor when they got the flu or broke a leg. They work their butts off so they don't have to be on welfare.

But you don't want to pay more in taxes? Why? So your summer home can have new curtains in the fall?

Oh please. I'd MUCH rather pay a few more cents a day than continue to see kids and families in ruins because they work so hard. Get a reality check!

Most Americans are one (maybe 2) paycheck away from living under a bridge. Credit card debt continues to rise, because we don't make enough to defray current expenses. And the Administration's answer to that? Make it harder to declare bankruptcy. Like putting a Band-aid over an amputated limb.

The issue is not charity, or anyone's generosity, or lack thereof. It's about what's right. One of the reasons for the burgeoning rate of home businesses is that people have a dream of earning enough from ONE JOB to adequately care for ourselves and our kids; without having to worry about being "downsized", "outsourced" or laid off due to "lack of work".

I've lived with the stress caused by knowing that you're good at what you do, and being told by your supervisors that they don't know what they'd do without you; but nevertheless your job is in jeopardy. It is NOT good. And it's a situation far too many Americans deal with daily.

I agree with Jeannie .
This country cares only for the well off.
Why do you think there riots every few years ??????

Imagine a world where access to health care and education had no impact on your personal finances. Where everyone who worked, could afford a decent house and earned enough to pay their bills, provide for their future and perhaps live a little once in a while.

Imagine!!!

Devin, you've hit upon one of my favorite themes; you've touched all the right places, hit all the right buttons. I was raised by Roosevelt Dems, too; my parents were raised in a small town out west with hard working values; they worked hard and I believed that people would rise to the top on hard work alone. Heck, why not? My parents did. My father was born a Mormon cowboy but became an Athiest and a world-class scientist who died too young to leave any money to his family. No matter. We have hard work and talent in our veins; the money always come later. Natch. Not.

It is a very sad fact that the entitlements are becoming dismantled at a time when we can ill afford to do so; the middle class LBJ society is no longer; my family has sunk from prosperous middle class to struggling middle class; we have college and graduate degrees but no property. Alas. I never give up. I can write.

Your points are well made. Very well made.

Devin, that world is called Canada or Sweden. I lived in Canada for nearly 10 years. Americans like to believe Canadian health care is not so hot, but that is yet another lie. My niece is 21 and has bought a house with her brother; she is putting herself through college as an assistant manager for a company and paying for everything herself. She gets two healthcare - one the "Medicare" the government - and another one from her American company. Imagine.

Devin, very intriguing article. I of course see things in a somewhat different light. I will grant you that there are some wealthy people who own businesses that will not pay their employees a living wage, but you cannot make a blanket statement that says the wealthy want to keep all of the poor downtrodden. I don't ever see te government as the solution to any problem. The only job/help that the government has ever "given" me was the 6 years I served in the Navy. The rest of my "career" has been my own doing. If I wanted a better job, then I went out and found it and fought for it. I know that there are hard working Americans that are strugglingto make it, but we offer the most freedom in the world to make a better life, as long as the government and their programs stay out of the way.

Thanks everyone,
I have traveled all over this country and one of the most persistent re-occurring themes I've observed is the blinders-on idea that there is some kind of magic force out there that rewards honesty and hard work and brings bad karma to the shiftless slackers of our world. But this attitude only exists with persons who have never seen hard times. People who believe their good fortune is due in it's entirety to their own personal efforts and credits no one or no thing with helping them get there. For them, it's unfathomable to imagine how a person could experience troubles unless they brought those troubles upon them selves.

And there's the pity.

I'm pretty sure Scrooge was a Republican.

Sort of like the attitude that too many slackers were declaring bankruptcy so it's now impossible to get a second chance. The reason for the majority of bankruptcies is catastrophic medical events. Damn those slackers, anyway.

Here Here, Ron.

Oh Brother, where's Fidel when you need him?

I want to make an observation here. Deven is calling for the government to run this National heath care system. Fine. But I've been here for a few months and I've seen many of the same people saying that a government run health care system is the way to go but, they've also been here saying how bad the government is running the country(ok lets here how all our woes are the fault of the current administration) and yet we're to believe that they'll get it right with health care?
And I do blame both sides for our current state of affairs.

Off work for two weeks due to a broken rib. I am so gald I have insurance and a job to go back to. Because of my falling behind on my pay, I had to lower my 401k contributions. I shudder to think what would happen if I was more seriously hurt and couldn't work.
My co-workers who saw Sicko are now disgusted with our health care sysytem. If this movie had that much impact on my Republican friends, imagine how the left will react. It is time for health care for all Americans. Right now the righties are gearing up to combat Health care, it interferes with profits. Current Health care is a no brainer: People will pay for Health care or die.

As someone who has been without health care coverage for most of her life, I can only say there were times I would have welcomed being covered by even a poorly run health care system that made me wait a little longer in a doctor's office to learn whether I merely had a bad common cold or was suffering from something more serious that needed a prescription medicine to cure.

For most of my life I was fortunate enough to suffer only from minor illness that I could self-diagnose and treat with over-the-counter medication, but there were many times I was left with the worry that I might be wrong. It left me with a taste of how stressful it must be for those with no coverage who did not have confidence in their ability diagnose their minor Illnesses and to pursue a course of self-treatment. Observing the tendency of those with coverage to seek professional medical advice at the first possible sign of illness has also led me to conclude that those of us who have such confidence are relatively few.

Those who oppose univeral health care because of the expense should also consider the benefits of not have the productivity of 46 million people impaired by the stress those without coverage frequently endure.

here was a joke going around at work.
We have good news and bad news.
OK, What's the good news;
we just signed up with a new HMO
that has really low rates.
That's great! So what's the bad news;
the HMO just hired Doctor Kevorkian

"Thanks everyone,
I have traveled all over this country and one of the most persistent re-occurring themes I've observed is the blinders-on idea that there is some kind of magic force out there that rewards honesty and hard work and brings bad karma to the shiftless slackers of our world. But this attitude only exists with persons who have never seen hard times. People who believe their good fortune is due in it's entirety to their own personal efforts and credits no one or no thing with helping them get there. For them, it's unfathomable to imagine how a person could experience troubles unless they brought those troubles upon them selves.

And there's the pity. "


Of course we know what it is to experience hard times Devin. We just aren't particularly fond of people who expect the government to solve ALL of their problems in life.

Since the discussion pertains to our healthcare system I will try to keep my comments directed toward that.

First off I believe that any society that desires to call itself civilized ought to provide for the health care needs of those who cannot help themselves....ie children, the physically and mentally handicapped and the elderly. That being said I do not believe that it is ethical to expect citizens to subsidize the healthcare of other citizens who have made very poor lifestyle choices and thus incurred a ton of healthcare costs.

Some examples...........it's common knowledge that smoking cigarettes exponentially increases your risk of contracting lung cancer. So if an individual insits on smoking 2 packs a day for 20 years then why should I or any other person who had nothing to do with that individual's decision to smoke be forced to pay for their healthcare if they get lung cancer?

How about obesity? If someone chooses to eat a horrible diet and never to exercise and then becomes obese and has all kinds of health care problems why should others have to pay for that health care?

Of course there are people who make very healthy choices and still get very sick through no fault of there own. Life just deals them that hand unfortunately. We as a nation should do everything we can to help these people.

I am more inclined to be sympathetic to the guy that tried to live healthy, still got sick, tried paying for his own bills and couldn't than the guy who didn't pay attention to his health at all, got sick, and never even tried to pay the healthcare costs but rather expected someone else to pick up the tab from the get go.

I am always hearing comparisons of how unhealthy our population is and how this is some kind of indicment of how bad the healthcare int his nation is. However I believe the measures of our overall health are not soley a reflection of the healthcare system but also of our unique American lifestyle. We've become a national full of fast food consuming, sitting at our desks for 8 hours, not getting enough sleep, never exercising, stressed out people. We pay the doctors and hospitals to make us better when we get sick but it is not their responsibility to hold each and every person's hand 24-7 to make sure that we all make healthy lifestyle choices. That is the individual's responsibility and so many of us are grossly negligent in that respect. It's not just the "the healthcare systems is broke and that's why we're so unhealthy." It's also about us examing our lifestyles and changing them.

One last thing. When I discuss the lesser mentioned points of the current health care problem I'm in no way trying to suggest that an in depth analysis of how the entire system could be restrucrued to make it work better is not valid or worthwhile. If insurance companies are killing people to make profit off of denial of benefits that people are legitimately entitled to then they should be held to account for it. The one thing however that I almost never hear any of you who lambast the drug companies and insurance companies discuss is the amount of money that illegals cost our system every year that gets passed onto the rest of us. Maybe you bleeding hearts think we owe the illegals healthcare. I don't. I don't think we owe them a god damn thing at all and if I were a congressmen I would propose legislation making it legal for all health care providers to refuse all but immediate life saving health care to anyone who couldn't prove citizenship. We're talking billions of dollars a year that the rest of us are subsidizing. Just food for thought for those of you who claim to want an open, honest, and comprehensive discussion regarding the problems facing our health care system.

The biggest thing I would love to see in this country is a revamping of the education system to reflect reality. Most of us have to work for a living, and not everyone is suited for college. Why does our education system not reflect this? Why aren't we set up to give real-world job training to our children in high school so that when they graduate they have a marketable skill? Why do we not have a system that ensures a college education based solely on merit rather than on how much money someone has?

I believe we need to do a lot more in the preventive side of medicine starting with the very young. Remember though, eating a healthy diet is often a matter of having sufficient money to purchase healthy food and also a matter of education. Yes. Lifestyle plays a part as well, as do genetics, and culture. We claim we want our kids normal weight and healthy, but we cut physical education and recess out of schools and require they sit on their butts without activity all day. How do we reconcile what we say with what we do? Take a good look at most school lunch programs and what is served to the children. Tater tots and hot dogs is healthy?

I do agree with Dana about health care for illegals. As far as I'm concerned they should get only life-saving care and then be held and deported. That sounds harsh, but our system is falling under the weight of these people. We don't actually owe them anything other than a one-way bus ticket to the border.

Our entire system is broken. I agree we need to change how we behave, but the system itself is also broken.

Rich,
"The notion that all a man should do is simply do his job and make that enough to live the amercian dream doesnt consider our market. Some jobs at 40 hours/week pay better than others. some require more creativity, etc. We all have the same chance to get the jobs that will give us what we want. "

Just because this is the way things are, is no reason we can't do better. I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of my hard earned tax dollars being used for things like Earned Income Credit payments, food stamps, and college grants. Not because I don't think those who are recieving them deserve those things. But because the reason we have to pay for this stuff is because corporations and businesses refuse to pay their wrokers a living wage. So in essense, the taxes we're paying to fund these programs is actually going to the corporations and businesses that are owned and managed by people who earn more in a single year than the average American worker earns in 10 lifetimes.

Dana,
So, when you experienced hard times were you satisfied with watching your life go down the tubes while your fellow Americans just watched and proclaimed "oh well, somebody has to lose?" Well, this American is not willing to do that. As long as I continue to suck air, I will fight for a fair share of the pie for the people upon whose backs this great nation was built. Even for Republicans that don't think I should.

This nation was not built by the wealthy and powerful. Without the working class this country would not exist. Every wealthy and successful member of this land owes a debt to every other member because without this government of, by, and for the PEOPLE, the opportunity and infrastructure required for their success would not exist. For anyone who becomes successful in this country to claim he did it on his own and doesn't owe anybody for his success is an obscenity.

Dave M.
I haven't ignored anything. Again we're faced with the attitude that "It's just the way things are." Wow, I sure am glad folks like Einstien, Edison, Ford, Gates, Hawkings, and the tens of thousands of inventors, scientists, and entreprenuers throughout time didn't think like you.

I have not substantiated your observation Dave. Your observation seems to amount to... Just accept things the way they are, because we can't do any better.

I say we CAN do better. There is a big difference in the way we see this issue.

Ok Dave,
What my point was... that if these individuals thought as you, and that is (we need to accept that things are the way they are and there's no need to improve them,) then no improvement would have been sought throughout history and we'd still be living in caves acting on instinct alone. And I did not mention raising taxes. But I do believe we should all be paying into a universal health care system.

Observation unsubstantiated

If society has given you the opportunity to increase your wealth and allowed you to prosper by offering a service or a product to your community, are you not obligated to nurture and provide support to the people who have used your services?

For example, if you opened a business in a neighborhood sellings goods to the people in your neighborhood, wouldn't it make sense to ensure your community thrives by giving back to those people who are your neighbors?

Too many businesses open to persuade a community to throw their money into it with the understanding that this business owes them nothing, and then when their locality, neighborhood, city, county, state dries up, depreciates, loses money, the business is quick to move, never giving to the community they stole from.

The American Dream has always come at a price. People who constantly are willing to earn money at the expense of others have destroyed the principle of an "honest living" because even companies that everyone loves or admire have taken advantage of free enterprise.

If you owe it to your family to always have an open relationship with the understanding that there is a "give and take", why should running a business be any different?

Dave, it would seem, based on all of Devin's posts, that he will never be able to bring himself to call for any level of personal responsibility from his fellow citizens. No one can ever be blamed for the misfortune in their own lives. It is always society's fault.

With him EVERYTHING is a catastrophe that must be solved by government intervention. Devin seems incapable of wrapping his mind around the idea that there are in fact people who have experienced difficulty in their lives and got through it without the government.

Not only that but it seems as Devin is a firm proponent of equality of results and not equality of opportunity. In Devin's idealized utopian America the lazy, unwilling and apathetic are entitled to the same lifestyles as those who have put forth the effort. Oh but I forgot, according to Devin hard work, motivation and forsight are just illusory concepts used as justifications by those of us who have succeeded at the expense of others who we have screwed over 24-7 to get ahead. As we all know from our great teacher Devin, absolutely no one who has been successful in America can claim to have a clear conscience.

To Devin the ONLY solution is more government intervention.

How does someone have rational discourse with someone like that?

Douglas,
Your analogy was right on. It's not just the workers that are exploited; it's the communities as well. Some years ago the Boeing Company opened an assembly plant in my county. It was a sweet deal they got too. To get them to build their plant here, they were offered a 3 or 4 year tax exemption. But when that tax exemption ran out, so did they.

Dave and Dana,
You two beat everything, you know that. Typical Republican nonsense. I have not advocated a "perpetual handout." I am arguing for fair pay for people who work. And when I say that you are against change, I am saying that your satisfaction with "the way things are" is anti-change. If you can accept the premise that many good, hard working people are being under paid, how is wanting to change that equate to perpetual handouts?

The two of you READ my articles, but you always get it wrong. You say I'm for perpetual handouts. No I'm not; I am for fair days pay for a fair days work. And like I said in my article, you can take your charity and shove it. I've stated many times in my article that I am talking about folks who are honest, hard working. Yet the way you want to characterize them as lazy, irresponsible, slackers, why? Is it because you hate the idea of being fair. Your premise that anyone who is not doing well in this country is irresponsible is cold, naive, and just plain Right wing rhetoric. I've known plenty of high wage earners who were irresponsible as hell, so what's your point?

But you're right about me wanting government intervention. If that is what it takes to get corporations and businesses to pay "THOSE UPON WHOSE BACKS THEY'VE ACHIEVED SUCCESS" a fair wage, then so be it. I have NOT advocated raising taxes or dispensing handouts you twits. If you're going to argue with me, at least have the intelligence to get what I say right.

Rich,

There are a full time lot of jobs beside McDonalds that pay minimum wage. In the eartly ninety my daughter took a job as a sales clerk to give her some income until she found something better. When she figured out a simple problem the store was having with its computer system, her boss gave her the docs and asked her to learn more about the system. She did. was was promoted to assistant manager and when she asked for raised to go with the promotion and duties and was told that being given the opportunity to gain computer and management experience should be compensation enough!

I see the new and better? Gather still does not contain a comments previewer and editor. My apologies for the mistakes in the above.

Ok Rich,
Here is the URL for a site called "Living Wage Calculator."

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/results.php?location=4700

At the bottom you will see a chart showing around 26 occupation areas and their typical hourly wage. I looked up Phoenix, AZ and found that 45% of the occupational areas had wages below the living wage for that city. That means people have incomes less than what is required to live. And as you will see, not a single one of these jobs is at McDonalds.

"Fair" is a relative term that can be applied from different levels. If you have a full-time job straining your muscles all day, you probably don't think it's fair that the guy who tells you what to lift makes more than you. If you spend all day at a sales counter dealing with difficult customers, you probably don't think it's fair that some guy makes more than you for going over inventory sheets. Somewhere along the timeline of capitalist evolution certain jobs have proven more valuable than others and the disposition of the bottom line reflects just that. I've had two businesses and paid a "fair" wage to my employees. If they didn't think it was "fair" they could move along or become more skilled and earn more money. Never once was I told my wage scale was "unfair". According to this article, I was cheating the working man by not paying enough to comfortably feed, clothe, and house every employee simply for showing up. Idealism, in this arena, is a good theory and soothes the altruistic nature of most but fails miserably when put into practice. Equal distribution, and I think that is the ultimate goal here, will have to be paid for and for that to happen you have to remove the human desire to expect a just reward for contributions that exceed those of the run of the mill worker bee.

Devin, you say that it is not fair that a full-time worker lives at or below the poverty line and that, as a society, we can do better. I think what you will see, before you see the wage levels rise in this country, is a stagnation as wage levels in other countries rise. The equality you seek will take place on a global scale as more and more nations expand thier economies. Protecting our job market from outside influence while, at the same time, legislating "fairness" at home is a tall order for our government. I don't think socialism based on protectionism will get us very far.

I was lucky. Found the American Dream, husband left me with 5 young children, because he couldn't cope. I found work and struggled to make it. Worked two jobs and still did not make enough. Could not stand Welfare. Kept trying. So I have been at both ends of the money. My children are grown and educated now. I went back to college along the way. Made substantial monies. Now I am not a burden to anyone/

Opened a Food Bank, and was receiving large quantities of fresh food. had a tough time giving it all away. Got so busy, the town closed us down. That is another story.

Devin,

Good article; great analysis of some real world facts that some people just don't want to get because it would change the status quo and their bottom line. I wonder if all those hard working agribusiness will give up their subsidies. I wonder if the next congress can make a dent in corporate welfare and insist on 'free' and open markets and none of that off-shore hanky panky. I wonder if our leaders will lead us to the path of righteously overcoming our addiction to oil -- it's so costly!

Probably not. But, I'd be willing to bet the country that they will throw us all a universal health care bone! Each side will have a different name for it, of course.

For all those who pride themselves on working 'smart' instead of hard, wall street will throw you a few bones, or maybe not.

Wow Rich,
You can't imagine how surprised I am that you would impugn yet another legitimate source of information.

What's to skew? Rent plus utilities plus groceries plus transportation plus insurance plus clothing & personal requirements equals a "living wage." And for a significant segment of the "career" workforce, wages come up short. There is nothing to deny here. Facts are facts and all the wing nut rhetoric in the world is not going to change that. Why a person who says he is just another working stiff would continue to deny these facts in defense of elite wealthy power barons who could care less if he lives or dies forces me to come to only one conclusion. You, Rich Kaye are a sucker of Biblical proportions. Don't you get it; the very people you defend hate you. Just imagine how satisfying it is for them when they can convince a wage earner that defending big business is somehow patriotic, but defending a brother worker's right to fair compensation is not. Think real hard about that for a minute Rich. You are a worker yet you are more passionate about defending your employer than your brother workers. What is wrong with this picture?

I want you to carefully examine what you're arguing about here. Your side defends a person's right to improve his or her situation through self reliance. My side believes that raising everyone is just as effective for the individual, and it has the advantage of being a group effort and it's more compassionate. The flaw with your sides approach is that it requires going it alone, which is always a disadvantage and is just plain selfish. Compasssion vs. selfishness... mmm, I'll stay with my side.

Bottom line is that if you're a worker then you should be standing with the workers. Business has enough advantages as it is without workers who turn out to be traitors like you.

Devin, your article is very fair and it is truthful. People hate the truth. I also have been at both ends of the financial spectrum. You have done a great job. I am coming back here with my 4.0 when I can, because your are right, and it needs to be verified for those who are too comfortable now to see the plight of the innocent of all ages in their own country,that our boys are dying for. I guess they could go to New Orleans, check out the progress and the money spent there to "help". Save your breath. Ellen B By the way, this is a ten!!!!

Devins America: its not anybody's fault that they cannot make it in the greatest country in the world,----- it's the republicans fault of course!!. If only his Hero Jimmy- malaise- Carter a true share the paycheck socilalist wasn't such a economic disaster- of course Lefty Devin wiil tell us it wasn't Jimmy's fault he was a complete disaster- it was the republicans fault- of course. Devin are you ever going to get tired of peddling this same economic stupidity, that has never worked anywhere it has been tried. Devin, Michael Moore, Castro, Chavez, aggree with you doesn't that tell you something.

As someone who has been in the position you describe.... I disagree with your points.

Education and hard work will get you from nothing to something.

It seems to me that the liberals in this country operate under the mistaken belief that everyone should be equal. Nothing can be further from the truth, our illustrious (and not so illustrious) founders made a great observation when declaring our independence..... "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are CREATED equal...."

After that people you're on your own merit will rise to the top (in most cases). It is not the government's or anyone else's place to make sure that everyone has the same opportunities, healthcare, or bank balance. You want a better bank balance earn it. You want better healthcare earn it. You want better opportunities, educate yourself (Turn off the idiot box, get out and do something with your life.)
I don't feel sorry for people who work 40+ hours a week and merely maintain their lives, if you want something better go out and get it.

P.S. it never fails to amaze me that liberals, the majority of whom subscribe to Darwin's theory of evolution, complain that things aren't fair. Get over it accept your hypothesis, life is all about survival of the fittest.

Thanks Ellen, it's nice to see someone with intelligence join the thread. Although most of my antagonists here are pretty much incomprehensible, there are a few that bring reasonable arguments to the table. I pretty much ignore wing nuts unless they make a somewhat coherent point. But most of the time it's just mindless ramblings like the two posts above this one.

Great Article, Devin!

Defending the plight of the working poor will always be a battle which many in the US will denounce as un-natural, un-constitutional and un-Godly. As many here have proclaimed, these people believe that we should let economics be a Darwinistic force on the populous. They do not care that they are putting the concerns of money ahead of the health and welfare of people; and they do not care that 'money-based economics' is neither natural, constitutional nor Godly.

Economics is a totally man-made social construct which allows for the elevation of some individual's living to rise well above the living abilities of others by capitalizing on the labors and consuming habits of the masses.

As long as they and their loved ones are fed and cared about, the uncaring care nothing for others, so long as the masses continue to generate personal profits. They are not interested in working together to make a society that is grand for all, because 'the all' includes people whom they despise and see as fungible or superflous.

To them, this is not a nation built on the values of compassion and care, nor on the values of safeguarding the lives and liberties of their fellow countryfolk. They care only for themselves.

Very well said Bill,
The Right's constant use of sarcasm belies a tendency towards very simple thinking. I suppose it would be difficult to feel compassion for another human being when you are incapable of the emotion. I wonder if they realize the premise of 'survival of the fittest' represents the most primitive of the social attitudes demonstrated by humans. It's hard to accept that there are human beings, alive today who are proud to pronounce that they've learned to accept that it's 'just the way things are' and that the mature reasonable thing to do for us dumb liberals would be to accept it as well... sigh!!!

Gee Rich,
I'm sorry, but I didn't notice you standing by watching my life unfold. Don't you realize Rich, that it's just that kind of rambling summation of something you couldn't possibly have any knowledge of that makes the vast majority of gather members revile everything about you. It is apparently the manner in which you come to your political opinions. You just make them up, tell your self over and over that it's fact and voila... it becomes fact. What a sad little man you are.

Rich - I would be perfectly happy to pay more income taxes for universal health care.

Rich Kaye - The idea of redistribution of wealth via higher taxes by the government would only raise the taxes on the rich. You realize that since you have identified yourself as being firmly middle class, you would have nothing to fear and possibly much to gain.

Personally, I'd rather see our American rich redistribute the wealth more equitably all on their own; without government involvement. Besides being a perfect way for them to exemplify what fine countrymen they are; and showing that fine humanitarian heart they often publicly claim to have; a vast redistributing, which especially favored the lowest tiers of wealth in our society, would sweeten and enrich every economic pool. Proper riding of those changes by the captains of industry would open doors to results quite surpassing any economic top-end currently available. Raising, securing and stabilizing the base allows for higher heights to be reached.

Not to mention the productivity of workers, Bill's Spirit. Very good comment. Sadly, today, the focus is on the investor as if there are no other stakeholders in the economy.

I have two things to add to this argument:

1) 80 percent of the world's wealth is owned by 20 percent of the population

2) these days, even if you have worked hard and saved all your life and have good insurance, you are only a medical disaster or two away from bankrupcy or worse

I'd be willing to pay higher taxes for universal health care. Heck, I bet what I pay in insurance premiums and medical bills is higher than any amount of taxes the government could levy. The point in the US is those at the upper stratum of income (as well as corporations) do not want to pay their fair share of taxes. And the discrepancy between the upper and lower classes is only increasing, so the problems will surely only continue to mount.

Hasn't it ever occurred to you that the only reason the wealthy ARE wealthy is because they've been giving the workers the shaft while they keep the gold.

Our point my simple friend is; that this money you say we want to "take" from the wealthy is NOT theirs! You say that taxes are too high, right. And you really resent tax dollars that are used for welfare and Medicaid right. Well we wouldn't have to pay for all that welfare if business owners paid a living wage. Because 80% of welfare goes out in the form of food cards, and the vast majority of the people who receive them work full time jobs like police officers, firemen, and United States soldiers for crying out loud. The way we on the Left see it is; that the wealthy are "taking" from us.

Rich Kaye - I totally agree that 'This is such nonsense.'

For example, it is nonsense to think that someone would feel sorry for a person who pockets 'only' 2 - 3 million per year after taxes. Let's review the fact that just 1 million per year is twenty times what the middle class earns per year and almost seventy times the national poverty level.

'Spoken like someone that wants to gain by taking from someone else.'

Of course you totally ignore the bulk of my message to draw that conclusion. I espoused that the 'rich' should redistribute their wealth more equitably without force or pressure from others. It is the choice of the multi-million dollar CEO's to layoff workers, move jobs out of the country, or import cheaper labor so that they can reduce company manufacturing costs and allow themselves to continue to make exorbitant salaries. Are they they not acieving personal gain by taking jobs and income earning opportunities away from others?

It's pretty clear that Devin's purpose is not just to take the wealthy 'down a notch,' he also wants to raise the impovershed up by a notch (or two, or three) with his process.

Rich Kaye - Additionally; if we reduce the taxes on everyone, how shall we pay for our paved roads, bridges, public parks, cops, teachers, and firemen?

Reducing taxes would reduce the flow of money that provides, supports and maintains these things. Are you suggesting that we should do without them? Do ou have some other ideas on how to fund public works and public services?

Rich,
"Im not denying that there are employers out there that operate this way, but there are also people out there , on teh left, that take what hey can get without a desire to work. See what I mean, there are people at both extremes."

By your logic; because there are people who drive too slow, we shouldn't do anything about people who drive too fast. I swear Rich I think you argue just for the sake of arguing. But this is all off the track, my point is that both the workers and employer's are victims of the "that's the way we've always done it" trap. Regardless of the how or why, I believe workers deserve a bigger piece of the pie and I'll keep fighting for it as long as I continue to breath.

Oh by the way Rich, just because I said I've lived among them and was one of them does not mean I've been an "abysmal failure in life." I spent the first five years of my life working as a truck driver and heavy equipment operator in the highway construction field. Then I spent the next 18 years working as an associate highway engineer. It was after I retired from that field that I started pursuing writing and stand up comedy. I've actually done pretty well personally. But you see I have this peculiar ability to see outside my own life and be aware of the plight of my brothers and sisters of humanity. An ability you seem to lack.

It's time to move on to the next article...

It is unfortunate but it still comes down to someone seeking a hand out. You state that a business owner who has built a business on the backs of others should redistribute the wealth equitably. Well, we can see how well that worked for the communists.

Further, it fails to recognize that the business owner had a dream, set up a business, funded it and nurtured it to get to a point where employees were a viable possibility. To then deny him or her their profit seems completely inequitable.

My husband, who commented above (secesh) grew up extremly poor. He has relatives who continue to do as it appears you do, bemoan the fact that someone does not recognize their value and reward it as they feel they so richly deserve.

He, on the other hand, work hard, went into the army to serve his country, worked for an education, worked at menial jobs all the while watching for his opportunity for advancement and when it came he took it.

He never asked for nor received an equitable distribution from any employer. He takes what is given and strives to do more to get ahead.

Finally, I take exception to the label right wing wingnut. He deserves the respect that he has earned over the years. That is the only equitable thing that he has ever demanded. You should learn from his example.

PS: I actually have been a democrat most of my life and the democrats that I grew up with actually believed that hard work was its own reward.

Devin, You constantly seem to be harping on the 'fact' that firemen, policemen, and soldiers are on welfare or receiving food stamps. This may be true, some of my fellow soldiers were indeed receiving food stamps while I was in the army, however, it is usually only for a limited time and until they get promoted (for merit, and experience). The fact is that entry level jobs in those professions do not get as much to start but the pay increases rapidly, if you are motivated.

I think you just like to use those examples because it annoys you that most of the members in those professions are conservatives, even when they are low on the totem pole.

Rich, I think it would be fair to say that Devin's definition of fair share would be just about all, or more pragmatically any kind of redistribution would be fair, that is until he finds himself in the position of being accused of not paying his fair share.

The libs argue that everyone should be able to have a 'living wage' unfortunately this loosely translates, IMHO, to communism/socialism....correct me if I'm wrong but the vast majority of emigration is from communist/socialist countries to capitalist countries, clearly that model doesn't work Devin.

Let's take the issue of the minimum wage for starters. The original idea of the minimum wage was to serve as a _floor_ for wages - it was the idea that there is a certain minimum amount of money that any person's labor was worth, no matter what the task. IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE A "LIVING WAGE". That is a modern-day corruption of the idea of the minimum wage. If you think about it, inter-twining the two ideas doesn't even make much sense. Are the proponents of the "living wage" suggesting that any person who has a job of any kind should be paid enough to support a family of 4, even if the person doesn't have a family, nor does the person rely on the job as a sole means of support? A much better way to accomplish the GOALS of a "living wage" is through something like the earned income tax credit. With the EITC, if you are the head of a family and you don't earn enough to constitute a "living wage", the government pays you the difference. That is the method preferred BY REPUBLICANS. But Democrats steadfastly cling to the "minimum wage-living wage" idea, mostly because of organized labor.

Devin's Utopia exists; but it's not run by people.

He'll get there a lot quicker fighting the current, rather than using it to make some progress on his agenda while he's visiting our imperfect world.

Rich,
Thank you for the article. It is indeed amusing. My favorite is this:
"I say that freedom to accumulate limitless wealth amounts to monetary gluttony. And monetary gluttony is why so many must suffer in poverty despite being honest hard working citizens."
This thinking is straight out of Karl Marx. At least he was honest enough to state up front his view that profit is equivalent to stolen labor. Yup, Bill Gates' wealth was all stolen from the backs of average schmucks like you and me. And the rest of his "proposal" is pretty much straight socialism. The government determines how much a person "should" make, employers must be forced to "share" their profit with their employees, etc.

Walks like a duck.

Immigrants, while a burden on our healthcare system, aren't the real problem.

The real problem is for-profit managed healthcare. As businesses, HMOs, PPOs and the like are profit driven, even at the expense - literally - of their customers.

Deporting illegal imigrants won't solve anything because there's nothing for them to go back to. If the US were sane and/or rational, we'd develop a program to assist impoverished countries like the former European Common Market brought the under-performing countries of Europe to a level where they counld compete.

To fund universal healthcare, I'd take an amount equal to 1% of the military's budget and establish clear and strong guidelines as to how the funds were to be used. There would be periodical reviews of providers. The under-performers would be given a couple of chances to measure up before becoming ineligible to prove care under the univaersal plan(s). Private insurance would still be available to cover elective procedures and treatments.

Hello :o),

I just wanted to say I am finally going through what is now under 5,800 pieces of gather new mail that is in my inbox on here. So with that in mind I have finally come to a piece of mail that was addressed to me in regards this article submission you have created to share with the gather community. Thank you for taking the time and sharing your piece with us here at gather. :o)

And I hope you have a Happy New Year... in 2009 :o)