Some day the info from the government will be so far from the truth, it will be considered fiction. And that day isn't far off.

Look how the Republican party condemned Scott McClellan for writing and exposing the Bush administration for lying to the American people. Not once did they admit what he said is false, they were rabid about him exposing them. Their ideals are it's okay to lie to protect a liar. Teach your children well.

very interesting and I agree with what Ron and Jim said. It's very unfortunate how "children" are being raised these days and how screwed up everything is.

You folks "got" the message well ! Thanks for your understanding, you must be some of the "more mature" children closer to "senility". :-)

Jerry, I understand the alegory but in case you have not noticed it is the Younger Voters that are most prominent in the Ron Paul Revolution and back Ron Paul for President. I don't think the "parents" in you story were very successful this time. A lot of the "kids" caught on to the lies. It is the older "kids" in the middle range that are still brainwashed and vote the "party line" regardless of party.

Col. George took the words right out of my mouth. It is the younger people in the country who are the most cynical about the honesty and integrity of our government.
They are the ones who are supporting Barack Obama, and his ideas for "change."
It's us older folks (not you and I, Jerry) who remain loyal and trusting of the current political leadership. That loyalty is crumbling, in the face of the many obvious failures of the current regime, though. And that is encouraging.
The real question is...will President Obama be both willing and able to implement the changes that he advocates? Even with larger Democratic majorities in Congress, the old power structure will still be formidable.

George and Bert, excellent points ! I completely overlooked "objective" concept of common understanding, I was referring to the more esoteric "subjective" concept of "Mental Maturity" in my metaphor (at least in my own mind) ...

You guys are correct, and it is truly gratifying that so many (not yet enough) of our young folks (in their minds and bodies) DO HAVE, the mental maturity that the older ones in body only, do NOT HAVE mentally ... I could have stated that better, but I hope all "get the drift" ...

Lora...and the solution is? McCain? Continued tax cuts for the rich? Continued and never-ending war? No health care for 50 million people? Sometimes government HAS to step in to right the wrongs. I am not saying all this will happen under Obama, but the alternative is continuing disaster.

Lora, anything is possible in regards to what you say ... any politician able to eventually run for the higher offices, especially that of the president, can only really afford to get there, under our present system, by having the financial support of the Deepest Pockets (DPs), that is just the sad reality ... mostly because those that wealthy, the DPs, already control the editorial policy of ALL of our MSM (contrary to the lies otherwise that claim MSM to be liberal) that so influence almost all of the people that might vote.

The game is rigged, no doubt about it ... and money rules ... one way or another. But, based upon the other, two, so far, choices, it would sure seem to me that Obama would be the better of them, at least relatively.

If it turns out that he is not ... then maybe the $hit will hit the fan to the degree that enough people will awake to such truths to where we can REALLY do something about it all ... it will take more than the present 50/50 polarization politically. IMnsHO.

PS ... and when we speak of Obama VS McCain, that example sure brings home what George and Bert said earlier, that which I had overlooked, the difference between bodily maturity and mental maturity !!!

...so I guess we are going through some major growing pains, eh?

Even more, it makes one feel like the rebellious teenager when the parents squash anything remotely close to truth and refuse to listen because they know deep down inside that we are right and they don't want to relinquish their parental power over us.

The sad part is that we appear like the squabbling kids in the sand box, throwing sand in each other's eyes making us all blind to solutions.

Just the constant squabbling and digging up the dirt on anyone who is brave enough to take a stand and hold the reigns for a nation that has lost it's sacred patriotism to a bunch of lying, disgusting bullies.

I wish we could return to the age of innocence and reach an understanding that could project us into a realm of justice and peace. But we've reached a plateau thats foundation is crumbling and truly I believe when we hit rock bottom it's going to be a much harder hit for the small percentage - high society - yes, they too are going to fall and when they do, they won't know how to survive it.

That's where the children come in...the greatest cycle of life...your parents birth you and raise you and when they fall...it's the child's turn to care for the parents.

Where is the love?

Another article about the truth and the government. As long as we continue to bestow more and more authority upon our "esteemed" representatives and look to them for remedies for problems they themselves have compounded, the truth, as ethereal as it seems to be, will remain obscured. Jerry, your analogy is very fitting. Just because parents are bigger and possess authority doesn't make them right. A bigger, more intrusive central government doesn't make it more truthful. And change can be something as simple as the change of names on the letterhead. IMO, change or truth will not come for a shuffling of seats but a true housecleaning.

oops, should say; "from a shuffling of seats...."

Ayat, a wonderful comment !!! A huge part of our problem, sticking with allegory, is that the parents have agreed to be the carrot and the stick, the good cop and the bad cop, so to speak.

The Repub is the Dad and the Lib is the Mom, and they play the kids off against each other ... always there being one of those parents available to supposedly arbitrate in the best interest of the "family" (at least the "kids" are "supposed" to believe that) ... so every four years, if mom or dad has been "too mean", the kids get to award the "other" parent with the "best parent award" for the next 4 years.

That, providing the kids are not so busy fighting with each other (as intended by mom and dad) to even think of the parents as the solution ... these parents are very wise, and VERY SLY, they have been at this game of "Divide and Conquer" (control) for a very long time !

Jerry, we are already there, my friend (referring back to the title). The American people have had it up tp their eyeballs, and I just don't see any way Mack Cain can win this November, unless people fall for the Republican swift-boating yet again.

Bert got it exactly right. I keep hearing this "experience" plea by the oldtimers, my age and up, who haved whined and whined about our government, and yet they stick to their comfort zones like fleas on a dog. If they can't have the Hillary they know, they will just go along with McCain instead of trying something new. To me, life is risk, at best, everything we do!!!!!! And I am also thinking we can't do much worse than what we have now, a never-ending war, the mindset of greedy corporocrazy, unaffordable healthcare, the descending dollar, and OMG we could go on and on and on and on and on..............

Right!...and I've had it with mom and dad. I think they are both nuts! I'm moved out of their house. The kids I hang with like Independence and are hoping that our newly adopted dad, Ron Paul, will teach them a thing or two! ;-)

PS ... in fact, the parents of the various world families, often visit each other in the others house (nation), and compare notes, make deals even, sometimes telling all of their kids that the parents of some third world nation are abusing their own children, inciting the "good" kids (parental view relatively speaking) to go "over there" and kick the butts of the "bad" parents to straighten them up ... but the problem then becomes critical when the "other" kids try and defend their own parents out of some kind of confused loyalty ... just too much confusion all around ... because of too much parental lying ... even a lot of the kids are developing very dysfunctional and bad habits using their trusted parents for an example.

We need much more maturity all around !

the real problem-crisis- i would say is that many kids today do not even know who their farther- IS. Thank the welfare culture for most of that disaster. moral decline, drug abuse, horrible public schools and a sexual degenerate like Clinton as a role model for behaviour really helped. I know its all W.'s fault. Oh! and Reagan was responsible for the AIDS Virus. These people are a Riot Alice!!!

Yep, and unfortunately we are all getting bad report cards even though we are dedicated members of the honor society. Uhm? "It's just a piece of paper" anyway. I have to go study some more, away from the sand box...the birds sound so much better. :-)

You guys are commenting faster than I can keep up, that is great though, I will just have to keep my replies more general rather than person specific until things slow down here ... :-)

If our parents did not have things so under control (theirs), maybe would could at least get a substitute parent once in a while, you know, like an "independent", that was not so committed to the "game" ... maybe like RP ... but would that "really" work in the long run ? ... it might give us a temporary sense of freedom, like in grade school when a substitute teacher filled in for a day or two ... ? But it never seems to last, the "system" always gets the parent/teachers back in front of the class to carry on the business as usual brainwashing.

I think us kids had better start "cheating", breaking the rules and comparing notes with each other instead of maintaining this "parental loyalty" ...

Mickey, do "you" really know your father and mother ? Or are you like so many that believe the one that promises you the most ? Do you REALLY trust him all that much ? Has he really did all that much for you ?

Or has he just pointed out what mom does wrong in being overly nice to your sister and spoiling her ?

Reagen prepared the ground for the National Security State, making the United States a debtor nation, serving the rich and destroying the middle class. The Bush administration with its globalist agenda has advanced the process of the transfer of wealth and power abroad.

In 1515, Sultan Muzaffar II, the ruler of Gujarat, presented a live Indian rhinoceros as a gift to Alfonso d'Albuquerque, the governor of Portuguese India. Albuquerque had the rhino sent to Lisbon as a present to Dom Manuel I, king of Portugal. When the rhino arrived in the Portuguese capital it created a sensation. No rhinoceros had been seen in Europe for more than a thousand years. It became the wonder of Europe. A few weeks later, a sketch of the rhino reached Nuremberg, where Albrecht Dürer created a famous woodcut of the beast, a print from which can be seen in the British Museum. As those who have examined Dürer's celebrated print will know, the German artist worked from inaccurate anatomical sketches, including armour-like plates covering the rhino's body and a small extra horn on its neck, which he replicated and embellished in his woodcut.

The success of Dürer's print came to define reality. For nearly 300 years, most subsequent depictions of the rhinoceros continued to reflect the artist's errors rather than anatomical fact. In 1956, indeed, Salvador Dali sculpted a rhino, neck horn and all, that owes more to Dürer than it does to zoological accuracy.

False rhino syndrome is the willingness to believe that something is other than what it is. The tenacity of the false rhino in the popular mind for so long is a reminder that human beings possess a vast capacity for misperception and for preferring to believe what they would like to believe.

Interesting story Clarke, it reminds me of the tendency of those who so trust our media (especially FOX) that if a lie is told over and over often enough, it tends to eventually resemble the truth to the participants.

great analogy and metaphor!

Jerry what lie has Fox told over and over again?

All of them ...

PS ... just kidding ... how about "most" of them ... the most destructive being that the MSM is Liberal ... which it is only by relative amounts and that by design of the controlling owners so that there is something for everyone, a place to go IF you believe them to find your "so-called" truths ... that to better fool everyone they can ...

Jerry you can't point to one specific lie because there isn't any. You don't like their commentary and opinions. It doesn't make them liars. Your opinions on how we should all be governed is not factual. People who disagree with your views aren't lying.

I agree with you that media hasn't been the source of truth that it once was. The gloves have been off ever since they picked sides during the Vietnam war.

Jerry did you know that it was Fox news who uncovered the Bush drunk driving cover-up?

"""the most destructive being that the MSM is Liberal ...""""

That isn't a lie. I watch Sunday shows like ABC's "This Week" and they have one moderate conservative (George Will) 2 far left liberals, and a left of center moderate at the round table hosted by a former Clinton aid. Then there is Dan rather. one of the most respected journalists in my life time who produced forged documents condemning Bush one month before the election. You can't find those types of scandals on Fox.

Very simple................very true. Hey kid!

Too true to be funny, Jerry, but it is - both...

Hi Liz and Dave, two of the most mature wise kids I know !

Jeff, If you knew what I know, you would never be able to make the claims that you have against what I am saying ... and that is the truth. You believe what you want to believe, probably as most people do, because you selectively watch, listen, and read what supports your views. You are what you are because you want to be.

If you think MSM is Leftist, that is because that is the purpose of their coverage, it keeps the righties glued to FOX and their radio talk show types ... only watching MSM to pick it apart to believe it is Left as you would prefer to believe ...

As I said, it IS Left, BUT ONLY enough to be considered so ... actually, as far as I am concerned, the further Left you go, the closer to Truth you will get ... try watching some of the PBS shows, especially NOVA ... spend some time with "Democracy Now" with Amy Goodman on FSTV and LINK TV ... watch some of their many documentaries by people that are true investigative reporters, NOT muzzled by paid off from above, and or threatened, editors, who have to do what they do or lose their fabulously wealthy incomes and perks.

Just because you Jeff, and those who think like you do, wish to think the best of your "parents" and their friends, does NOT make them as squeaky clean and pure as you prefer to believe ... it is your misplaced loyalty to them that prevents you from seeking real truth ...

Real truth would destroy your comfortable perceived relationships within your dysfunctional family where you kids have been so brainwashed ... FOX, and all of the Rush Limbaugh type radio shows, and there are many, must be the only sources your parents recommend to you, because the right NEEDS direction in order to know what to believe and who to hate, and they/you actually believe everything they/you are told from those sources it seems ...

But of course, to be told lies often enough, it comes to seem like truth ... you folks have been had Jeff, your parents have deceived you and you are apologists for them, just as they have planned it all, all along. I would say that you are just naive, but for many it is far more serious than that, gross negligence and even criminal for too many to just forgive ... the fact that you folks have put Bush into office and resisted impeachments, and are still considering McCain as your next president, just proves my contentions ...

IMnsHO.

Jerry I do watch PBS and the liberal media. Like I said I never miss the Sunday shows. Your elitist views that somehow you know better and that you are above all the spin is ridiculous. First off I am a libertarian and believe in an ideology not politicians. Second I believe in this ideology because it works for me and I believe putting people in charge of their own lives makes the world a better place. Third, I don't trust government. it is too big and too corrupt.

I don't pretend that republicans are less corrupt than democrats or that one side is better than the other. Republicans used to be partially libertarian after the Reagan revolution but have all gotten fat and happy. Democrats are constantly marching toward government controlling everything so they aren't even on my radar as viable. For somebody as paranoid as you Jerry I am surprised you like the party that wants government to run and regulateceverything.

Just so you know, not everybody who is a conservative/libertarian capitalist was taught to be that way by their parents. My dad is a left wing loon that thinks and says everything you do. So do 2 of my other brothers and I have to admit i was a lefty until I turned about 30 years old and saw the facade with clear eyes. As far as McCain, he is the worst example of republicans that I can think of. I would much rather have Obama win because I believe he will reignite a libertarian/conservative movement comparable to the Reagan Revolution much like Jimmy Carter did.

Jeff, I stand corrected where necessary, no problem, you must be more squared away than I imagined based upon earlier comments.

Knowing better and being above the spin is NOT ridiculous, it is required to exercise good judgment associated with truth ... the ploy of calling such people "elitist" is just another right wing lie meant to divide and cause hatreds by the sheeple following their pundits.

I am in no way for big government, only that needed to provide basics AND control the excesses of free capitalism, which based upon examples so far, would greedily consume the goose that lays their golden eggs, we the people.

But keep in mind, when I communicate with people here on Gather, I often use them, as I did you above, as "handy examples" to represent certain schools of thought, as referenced for other unknown readers of these words ... in other words, it was never intended to be a personal "attack" upon you, only an illustration of differing principles for over all consideration ...

BTW, I tried hard to keep all of this thread on an allegorical and metaphorical level rather than a literalistic and personal basis ... it was not until you commented did I think I had to go away from that to respond fully ... so when I mentioned "parents" and "siblings" etc ... it was meant to tie those with the intent of the article, a generalization of our society "as a whole" ... allegorically.

Thanks for your participation though Jeff ... I may well be much more of a Libertarian myself than you would suspect ... I like much of Ron Paul's concerns, but I just do not trust big business enough to give them the free reign he "seems" to want to allow them, the rest of the world would have too much of an effect overall, the playing field having been too much manipulated out of balance already.

"""Knowing better and being above the spin is NOT ridiculous, it is required to exercise good judgment associated with truth ... the ploy of calling such people "elitist" is just another right wing lie meant to divide and cause hatreds by the sheeple following their pundits."""

I never said that. I said thinking that you know better and are above the spin is elitism. You are the one who claimed that if I know what you know then I would understand the truth. That is elitism and it isn't divisive to make that claim after what you said without stating facts. I asked you to give me an example of a Fox News lie that has been repeated so much that people take the premise of it as being truthful. You didn't.

It would be much easier to debate your views than to debate what you really mean or how you say things to simply to use people as "handy examples" without actually making claims other than your all knowing righteousness that you would tell me if you thought I could understand. Listen to yourself Jerry.

Despite your elitist pompous intellectual conceit I admire the fact that you can look down your nose at people without actually calling them names. It is rare for people on the left. I only say this because you seem to think your truths are too devine for me to grasp. I would much rather you tell me the truths instead of assuming that I can't handle the truth.

Jeff, I told you ... the lie that MSM is Leftist ... and I also explained what that means ... you have ignored that.

I have no intellectual conceit other than for those that could understand yet refuse to do so ... I am constantly explaining the concepts needed to make this a better world, it is people like yourself that reject without any attempt to ever even understand ... I wrote an entire book about it all, have made it available for a free download even, but even many that say they want to understand cannot, I would hold out little expectation that one such as yourself that really does not want to, ever could/would ... that is NOT being "elitist" or anything else other than stating the facts of the truth ... IMnsHO.

Read the book, it explains the Basic Equation of Truth, the BET as (+=-) ... can you handle the truth ? Prove it.

I do understand your metaphor/allegory. The problem is using "children" in it. It's best to reverse the roles, my friend, for children are more often than not, far too bright and clever to fall for this for too long. Rather it would be as desensitized adults who would fall into this trap. I speak from experience. Children tend to keep you on your toes with their acuity. You just cannot deceive them for very long. Plus, they adapt, and they adapt to your deceptions very quickly and shall get the best of you, because they are far quicker on their feet than are their tired, aging parent and/or adults.

Never ever for the story by (I believe) Hans Christian Andersen,
"The Emperor's New Clothes".

Sure, the Emperor was naked, and everybody SAW that the Emperor was naked, but the only one with sense enough to speak it out, keep it real, and bring the whole kingdom back to reality was the child who yelled out:

"But he has no clothes on at all!"

All of the fearful adults -- who knew better -- went along with the program.

"Some day" is always off in the future, but

the deceptions of which you speak are already here.

**********Featured in We the People*************

Thanks Nita, your point is well taken ... but in "this" metaphor, the "children" (that have NOT noticed the nakedness, actually more correctly, either ignore it, or like it), just seem to love and trust their "parents" way too much ... how the heck else could have GWB and his henchmen spent so many years tearing this country and the world apart ... !?!

Jerry I will read your book and do a review on it. As far as the mainstream media being liberal, that isn't a lie. They are just as liberal as Fox News is conservative. The difference is that Fox news commentators don't pretend to be objective and screech when they are called conservative. What political party did Tim Russert work for? What political party did George Stephanopoulos work for? How about Chris Mathews? Tom Brokaw admitted to believing in one of the political parties philosophy. What party was it? Do we have to guess about Dan Rather?

I ask this because I as a libertarian capitalist can not be objective regarding what is good, bad or more to the point news worthy. I am biased. There are no truths regarding political philosophy. Until you realise that, you ARE an elitist. Because you are the one with all the "correct" answers. Politicians pick the winners and losers. They could care less about truth.

Jerry I say all this knowing full well that you are a decent human being and obviously more intelligent than average. I just think you are wrong to associate truth with political ideology. As I said I will read your book and respond.

Jeff, I associate truth only with my own intuition, because I know truth on earth is but relative, because of perspectives differing in time and space if nothing else.

I have found in studying the difference between the simple dictionary words conservative and liberal, that there are surely correlations with the two parties, as in right and left, and those taken to the extremes cause problems on both sides, but I still maintain that it is the right more often than not that does the labeling and thus instigates the problematic conflicts ...

Just as I say that it is the right that has come up with the word "elitist", something used a lot by that guy named Horowitz (David I believe) from the right, that is so often on FOX, who crusades against liberalism in the universities claiming it is all the "fault" of left-wing "elitist" professors, and promotes young republican groups in such schools, lecturing to them often and writing books while associated with right-wing think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation (if I remember right).

The way I see it (I am too lazy to reread to see if I already said such here) is from a spiritual perspective of intuitively reading between the lines of all of the lies and half truths put out by all who stand to gain one way or another from what they tell us ... my philosophy goes so much deeper than the orthodox surface story ... I am NOT an "elitist", just a caring person seeking highest truth and a better world for people not greedy and mean ... it is as simple as that ...

Jeff, if you find my book incomprehensible you will not be the first ... I use a few words that people are not used to, but I do not do it to impress anyone, but because the meanings of them are needed to show the vast differences between the "pairs" of them in the dualistic sense ... which then needs to be balanced somewhere in between. Probably a quick intuitive skim first, before a serious study (with a dictionary) would be the best way to understand ... I look forward to your review, though I do not expect it to be favorable, because I am far too far out for most people ... :-)

No use from talking...

"I think us kids had better start 'cheating', breaking the rules and comparing notes with each other instead of maintaining this 'parental loyalty' ..."

well said.


this is what i see:
i must walk to the gas station that is less than three hundred feet from my house to acquire cigarettes (my second-favorite vice, behind Birds+Bees). in walking there on any given evening, i am beset by crack addicts and alcoholics trolling for change.
in their eyes, none too distant, is the promise that a little fear on my part would cause them to assault me.

as such, i generally leave my fear at home.

when i get to the gas station, there is usually at LEAST one car idling at a pump. this vehicle is represented (at the walk-up window: the hour is wee) by a driver who is, surprise-surprise: trolling for change. "I ran out of gas," this once-middle-class individual blurts, discomfited. Ashamed.

i am not rich; i cannot give to either... but i generally give to both.
it is not a question of pride-- i have little, if any--and it is not Good Samaritanism. -in truth, the change i give each is a symbol whose meaning i can only scarcely glimpse--let alone articulate. -it runs along the lines of, "i feel your pain."
it sounds like, "there's no cure."

it is all that is left of our American Dreams.

i mean, let's be real: that Dream was like that shimmering zone in a desert--mirage? -or is it an oasis?
we worked hard; we still do.

the ground has fallen out from under us. -our jobs have been sent to the far reaches--
our new Help Desk comes down the line courtesy of India, and PRAY that their English is good enough to "help" from that "desk".
our air-drops whir over Darfur, instead of Indiana's flood-blasted regions.

who will help us?

you.
with us.

we can all do something (some of) our parents did: riot, and stymie the flow of Commerce for a spell. the longer we do it, the more likely they are to listen.

or: revolt. get the Representation that was supposed to come with the Taxation... but left the party early, making apologies with a sly grin...

I don't know that any society has truly understood the difference between "leadership" and "leading". The former is guiding everyone forward, together, but remembering and respecting differences. The latter is spinning everyone until no one remembers the questions.

thomas, thanks for coming by ... some of us are expecting great changes soon in our world status ... but not without problems.

Debra, good points for sure ... we have so much of the latter that the former would be lost in the smoke and mirrors of the former ... thanks for coming by.

A good point to make, Jerry.. yet I don totally agree with you; cuz ofcourse I can't deny this being the reality in many cases, but why do I think you put it in a general& absolute way.. Aren't governments sometimes right (maybe not nowadays but theoretically at least)& wt upsets me more is giving parents as an example.. which in my opinion there;s no COMPARISON BETWEEN YOUR FAMILY& YOUR COUTRY.. cuz maybe your ruler (president or anythin) can hurt you for his own good, but can your parents do that??

roaa, metaphor and allegory for the DYSFUNCTIONAL family ...

David A.: Bravo for you. That's a very astute observation and quite true. It is especially true in so many cases where the "parents" haven't grown up themselves yet.

Amen.

Excellent article, Jerry. Puts a whole new meaning into "suspension of disbelief."

Where are the protesters to the war etc? Something to think about. Thanks for the article.

Somehow this thread got away from me (overlooked) ... thanks for the comments during that period ... Jeff, I agree from the "human" perspective ... but "that" is what we can, and need to, transcend while still living here ... then we could have the proper perspective to properly change things .... it was when I was at your age that I did get very depressed about it all and really ready to end it all when I found what I have about 16 years ago ... you too have that chance should it ever matter enough to you. (+=-)>(+/-). :-)