I do not see any potential problems that are to be ascribed to the system itself as much as to the philosophy of the people in the upper levels of the system. All of our 'systems' are hierarchical in nature ... and that means shaped like a pyramid.
The very upper echelon then has ALL power ... because the top is supported by all of those below. In a true democracy there would be an interaction through all levels for the greater good of the whole ... but only on the assumption that the whole was seeking that result actively. They have to all be working together cooperating for their overall goals ... when THAT is being done ALL DIVERSITY adds COOPERATIVELY to the whole in a creative SYNERGY of achievement.
That great synergistic increase is then redistributed back down the pyramid for all to gain fairly ... in the "perfect" working of the 'system' ... when it works THAT way (perfectly) there is nothing better ... Our heavenly divine hierarchy spiritually works just like that. God being the epitome of the perfect "head" that LOVES those in his system SHOULD be what our temporal system leaders are all about, who they should emulate in that regard ... That is the design for our inter-connective universe.
But sadly, that design has been perverted by leaders that are very unGodly ... they have decided to take advantage of the perfect systems and thus take advantage of the people that make it up, those below them. When advantage is taken it is NOT via love but via something very much less ... FEAR of loss of what they most cherish drives them towards more greed, power, and control as insurance of maintenance of their position in the receiving of the benefits they are able to control based upon their position in the hierarchical level ... ultimately the cream rises to the top, the crap rolls downhill, and the rich get richer (having ever more they fear to lose) and the poor get poorer ... as the system becomes milked that way, it comes to a point where the creation becomes ever less due to many factors ... the most important one being the loss of ability and loss of trust of those at the lower levels who actually do the work that powers the system ...
As the people become less satisfied and optimistic, production slacks off and the people are then in need of motivation ... good leaders (rare) would see to it that the management does it's part to sacrifice some, in order to better share with those at the lower levels ... restoring trust and optimism to the workers ... production picks up and everyone then becomes happy and ambitious again.
But on the 'other' hand, when the system seems to be slowing, poor leaders (from the standpoint of us at lower levels), will begin to lie to the bottom and cultivate loyalty where they can of those below them that they need to support them ... the worst kind of leaders will rob the lowest levels of it's wealth (much as mineral mining of the riches of our earth or clearcut logging of our forests) via an excess of greed as they seek short term gain having either no desire or supposed need to insure the lasting continuity of the resource.
Once such a system has been corrupted to a certain point where the trusting people that have been compliant due to believing lies, wise up and rebel, THEN stricter controls are implemented ... the bottom becomes FORCED in various ways, yet the middle that enforces does so out of fear of loss of their benefits that the top hands down to them.
The more the resistance at the bottom the more restrictive force that comes down from the top ... the greater the potential loss, the greater the fear of it, and the greater the willingness to compromise the morality of coveted leadership positions.
If one were to stop and think about this, they could actually see this happening in this nation right now ... our media has been bought out by the corporate interests of the 'top' and we are fed just what information that best suits those leader's continued position of power and dominance ... and most of us will never even know who these people are because they remain powerful through anonymity ... it they who buy and sell our corruptible politicians, not all, but just enough to have their policies kept in place.
If and when the day comes that the short term gain approach gets to the point of fewer returns to where the top is no longer satisfied, then anything can happen and probably will ... we may well be coming to such a point in our very near future !!!
But for those that fear such a possibility, will deny and attempt to kill the messengers ... I see that all over here on Gather when these issues of sociology and politics are discussed ... those that most want to deny the potentials for such, will go to any length, to act as apologists for 'their' coveted 'system' that they have been coerced into believing they were to be the recipients of that wealth if they play along ...
I will end this now with another thought ... the 'system' is extremely hard on any lowest level PYRAMID programs that the average person might become involved in ... that being outlawed, and called a SCHEME that will hurt the little people that trust in it ... beware of all such CROOKED SCHEMES, we will be warned and told ...
AND THEY SINCERELY HOPE THAT WE NEVER LOOK HIGHER TO RECOGNISE THAT IS JUST WHAT "THEIR" "SYSTEM" IS ALL ABOUT ALSO ... A SCHEME !!!
This article the reprint of a comment that I made on http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977180418
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Comments: 23
In the "pyramid" scenario envisioned by our country's founders all the blocks that make up the pyramid are the same size, implying that every "unit" is equal in importance regardless of their place within the pyramid. This has been distorted by classist mentalities which decree and decry that position within the pyramid is indicative of individual value. This attitude is counter to the engineering concepts of a pyramid in that the blocks at the top cannot hold their place without the lower blocks supporting and holding them up. Those at the top, who see and treat the lowers as inferior, worthless and/or undeserving undermine their own position's security with their actions and rhetoric. Sooner or later they will destroy the structure(s) that hold them up and they will fall into the mass of rubble they are creating.
Thanks for sharing this Good Article. 10
For I'll give you credit as I do know that you will understand.
For Western nations, establish three relatively independent, self administered spheres or sectors of social life - cultural, political/legal, and economic . Capitalist and socialist governments and European "social democracies" have applied the same values to all three sectors: this doesn't adequately represent the different, but related, needs of each.
Underlying all such analogies, is of course, the individual human being. Regardless of their perceived position in such systems, it is the actions of individual human beings which provide the actual benefits of any system. While some may be seen as workers, management, owners, etc; If the individual being acts in selfish or misguided "unselfishness", damage is done.
The question ultimately comes down to how individual human beings can be led to behave in non egocentric ways. Without that, no system can overcome the natural advantage self centered behaviour has in fulfilling the desires of the selves. This fundamental problem has always existed in every society, just as it does now.
While those near the top of such "schemes" may be undermining their own, or their descendants, status, there is always the "fallback" psychological position: This is the way reality functions, so those who position themselves well will survive whatever unfolds better than those who do not. If I do not grab this or that "life-preserver", someone else will. And there is no logic which can outmaneuver this ultimate truth. "Dog eat dog" is in fact the "winning" strategy in all cases, but one;
If a God exists.
In the Book, there is a phrase which summarizes the awareness of the futility of denying the implications of interactions based solely on human desires and logos. It's called the fear of God. A human that does not believe the story ends according to the will of God, is incapable of acting in anything but self interest. No matter how elaborately one decorates that self interest with logics and rationales, it is still self interest in the end. And that won't cut it, for our species. If there ain't no God, we're screwed.
For one who claims to be a devote of reason over religion, you don't make it very obvious. To note there exist good people that say they don't believe in God, and bad people that say they do, is NOT a logical foundation to render as a factual conclusion; Believing in God has no effect on a persons tendency to do good. That's like saying that because one has seen obese people eat a little, and thin people eat a lot, eating must have no effect on weight gain.
Your reasoning on the basis of somebody you figure is clever, saying they figure ethics could evolve, is absolutely no different than some Sunday Christian reciting things his pastor said to verify ethics could not evolve. I myself understand how ethics might evolve, and often delve deep into evolutionary concepts. I can go where you can, but you cannot say the same. And in the world of science, possibilities are not spoken of as truths.
You speak as facts, things that no one could possibly know as facts. Perhaps you feel it is best not to use the word 'believe' when speaking of the things you accept. Perhaps you like to think you're beyond all that. Funny what folks will believe.
In my past wanderings through world history (new to me basically, since my formal education was never much beyond the very technical) I started looking at the Greeks (and earlier civilizations) and the forms of governments that were slowly emerging with ever new embryonic forms in those many, many pre-Christ days. The slow development of Democracy in Greece especially is fascinating with -- as I see developments -- varieties of Gods' and Goddesses' 'imagery' providing templates for real human beings to act and shape one's self by. Our ONE God seems to me to be saying always: " 'SHAPE SELF', and the WORLD will take care of itself."
The REAL WORLD had to be lived in by every GREEK, of course, and it seems that the 'linking up' process between 'imaged' special qualities provided by revering many, many Gods and Goddesses (G&G) [emerging spirituality] and having to deal with the 'wrapping around everyone' finite world where our ancestors seemed to have to figure out for themselves how to eat every day and create their non-cave homes [emerging materiality] was an always present imperative. ALL THAT GOD created = materiality plus spirituality.
When small clusters like families, clans, tribes, villages, towns, poleis, and city-states came along and were seen as ways to 'improve' material existences, I presume the ONE GOD we humans were to consciously find later on as the old G&G members became mythic, must have been pleased because WE -- HIS PEOPLE -- were becoming immersed in the given divine task of SHAPING ONE'S SELF and trying to help others (like our progeny) about how to find and SHAPE THEIR SELVES too.
Thus the growing need for rules of behavior in families, clans, tribes, villages, towns, and city-states [emergence of RULES and LAW--for COMMUNAL advances] with lots of variability in leadership styles ranging from ruthless and gentle clan and tribal leaders to chaos producing and law abiding city-state leaders and counsels. PERSONKIND EMERGING AND DEVELOPING on the UPWARD [not always] march toward an improving quest for perfection.
I am of the growing opinion that our greatest need in our present day is to learn how to live properly -- day to day -- while we seek out and make more perfect the lessons we learn from HISTORY and the lessons we learn from each other as we speculate about the nature of future directions for our selves and our children (e.g. and in my case my childrens', childrens', children, for starters). My technical background and my (hopefully illuminated) FAITH says that the means for improvement can be created and our GOD-GIVEN task is to learn about our very own, collective human and humane creative and creating powers. I entertain the notion that that is what our Infinitely, Divine Maker intended in the beginning after the choice in Eden [that ill-famed GARDEN saying don't crave everything -- thus bounding GREED?]. Maybe there are planets where 'things' and 'souls' like our own made different choice and didn't eat the apple. Lets find ways to inter-communicate ASAP.
Democracy MAY BE in its developmental infancy, and in the world in which we are currently experiencing, the Greek-developed DEMOCRATIC organization of human effort IS faltering under the weight of present and past stupidities. As I measure things out, that failure is due mostly to poor EDUCATION of us PEOPLE who should always want to favor mental development and heart felt fellow compassion simultaneously. Imagine a WORLD where everyone is always intellectually curious, creative in inexplicable ways, and caring about one another. Would there be greed, and corruption, and hate, and WAR, and leadership stupidity? Would we vote for wrong people? Could WRONG LEADERS ever emerge into public offices? Would democracy then thrive because anyone--almost literally--could become a great leader?
Our knowledge of the organizations (usually of very varied folk) in GREECE included meetings in their poleis (i.e. city states) in which there were not huge numbers of persons. The information and educational meetings were organized so that almost any citizen selected and included as a citizen into the governmental sponsored meetings was then well informed in polis needs. The design was to get the system to support communal loyalties, and always trumped 'individual', and greedy, aspirations. Greeks held periodic meetings, meetings, meetings of all interested citizens and thus all citizens were always knowledgeable. PUBLIC EDUCATION! This genius could be said to be one designed to personalize interactions. [Not unlike TOWN MEETINGS in Towns like my own in Massachusetts.]
Such a WORLD IS POSSIBLE to bring into viable existence All we have to learn is how to think about how to act in ways to get there!
Thanks for creating another trigger for deep thought, Jerry, old friend!
Dick
As for what you said Dick, I do not know the history, but it almost seems that everything went down hill when the Romans took over from the Greeks ... maybe the Romans were the neoCONs of that age and sought more control of everything ... ?
Back tonight if all allows, thanks for the great comments so far.
For those who seek power over others, it has been long know that to achieve such, it works very good for the apex to divide the base in order to conquer it.
Thus when you picture what would be a "perfect" pyramid (actually a triangle for this purpose) you would have the leader at the top (apex) and the two 'sides' where one was on each bottom corner ... this being the "less than Godly" version, there would be a "break" (void or gap) in the center of the base line that "divided" the two corners into "opposing" sides ...
Thus each side had to look "up" for leadership as to how to "relate" to the opposite "side" below across that "artificially created" break/gap/void that was put there by the apex just for that purpose, to instill the needed (apex opinion) conflict and mistrust between the created "sides" just so that each had to look up their respective verticals for the leadership (Father [above] knows best) ...
Only in this "counterfeit" system, the Leader above places subordinate leaders just below Him that answer to Him, yet each tells their respective "sides" below, that they are just for them only ... convincing those lower, that there is none above them and that all who would think so, is but a dumb kooky conspiracy theorist ...
I hope that paints a metaphoric picture as intended ... in this case it is the POWER of $$$ that calls the shots ... along with everything that money can buy ... not all of it necessarily very desirable, especially when the powers use vast amounts of deceit, coercement, and even threats of all kinds towards the sub-leaders to keep them in line ... FEAR and GREED become the selfish motivators that allow the apex to have it's lieutenants keep a "veil" between the people and the very top and those of us around the base ...
To complete the thought, in the divine "triangle" of a Loving God, there would be no breaks in the base, all would be naturally interconnected and interrelating to each other through a perfect trinity with love, harmony and cooperation.
In fact, it is my belief that, the ancient depiction of the Jewish Star of David, reflects that esoteric truth in it's interconnected upper and lower "triangles" that are supposed to represent the ideal perfect triangle of the heavenly divine INterconnected and perfectly balanced with the earth form (mirror image and NOT divisively "disconnected" on it's base) where all of "both" are fully and knowingly cooperating ... THAT is the promise of God !!! (for when we wake up to the truth of it) ... and meanwhile, as you say Bert, I agree fully with you right to the glorious end, should it ever "materialize/spiritualize" ...
"When I said "do good" I meant to do things for others without expecting to gain from it...i.e., not in one's self interest. Viewed that way, I think you will see that your two statements above are mutually contradictory"
Well, if one views what I said, according to what you mean, it ought not surprise that there be contradiction. Again, poor reasoning.
You declaring that people who disbelieve in God are capable of acting in ways other than their own self interest does not make it so. Nor does it follow that believing one is acting without the influence of God, make it so. These are things you believe, not "facts" independent of your own self interest. The self is not the body, but a thing of the mind. IT can act against the interests of the body, but not itself. That would be insanity.
The "problem" seems rather simple to me; You state as facts, things which are really just beliefs. Obviously, you treat them as facts in your thinking, and not as possibilities, apparently based on the notion that if one trumpets an allegiance to "science", in opposition to "religion", ones beliefs are automatically more realistic than those who have found valuable insight in writings you haven't.
I find nothing wrong with scientific thinking, since it is really just careful thinking, but pledging allegiance to some concept of a great science god, does not a scientific thinker make. One must actually think carefully, otherwise "science" simply becomes another "orthodoxy" based religion, and not truly scientific at all.
I already spoke to this very matter;
Do you doubt that atheists can "do good" things? Have you never observed such a thing? I certainly have. Countless times. Do you doubt that Christians can do bad things?
The truth value of the statements are irrelevant to the conclusion drawn:
In the final analysis, it's just people
. . for at least two reasons which I already mentioned. Just as one cannot draw from the observation of some obese folks eating a small meal, and some skinny ones feasting; the logical conclusion that caloric intake does not effect weight gain . . . One cannot logically conclude that there is no good effect on the morality of men through believing in God, as done here.
Further, we are not really talking about just groups of people, but a potential all-powerful God as well. You might like to just cut Him out of the picture, but I assure you the feeling is not mutual. Restoring Him to His rightful place in your argument, leads to infinite ways in which what we are attempting to sample may not be even vaguely quantifiable. Consider the words of a relevant figure, when asked about the rather "low character" of some in his company;
They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that meaneth. I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
. . . for as you can plainly see; Ain't nobody of significance arguing with your observations along these lines. But what we can't know with Him around, is what those same folks would be up to if they hadn't come to see that "light", dim and shadowy as it may now appear to them.
Further complexities also enter on other levels, both with and without Him in the mix. It's just not a "factual" conclusion, but simply an extension of the predilection you have for discounting Him, and trying to make it seem like some kind of badge of rationality. No big deal, it would require a great deal of concern for the ultimate truth of ones behaviour to avoid such an ever-present sort of lure. Nothing unforgivable, in my view.
You acknowledge what I just demonstrated, and perhaps I'll explain what you now ask of (though I already did once). It was an answer to the question asked, and if that don't count, what's the use in more.