Thanks to Racheline for starting this group and for her first article in it. She's sparked some great conversations about life as a queer woman and it inspired me to invite folks to ask questions from a gay man.
A little about me to start, I'm 32 right now and have been out for about 15 years. I've kinda known I was gay since I was about 7 or 8 years old. I was sure by about 12.
I'm out to some, but not all, of my family, which makes for some surreal moments. I've done some diversity training for colleges on glbt issues and won some awards for programs I've developed.
I was kicked out (well asked to leave) the GLBT group on my college campus for being "too straight" and then was told in my first job that I was "too gay."
Ask away. There isn't much I can imagine that would be more awkward than the questions asked by the men's lacrosse team I once did a presentation for.
And thanks again Racheline for thinking of this new way for folks to learn about each other on gather.
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Comments: 41
being married to a black man, we sometimes get racism directed at us. do you get much prejudice still? i am sure it depends on where you live. we live in an extremely rural area, and so definitely the diversity quotient is behind the times...
I am lucky to live in the world of academe, where people put on a pretty liberal face most of the time. I live currently in Bloomington, Indiana, which, although it is a college town, is somewhat rural and in a conservative state. I've also lived in Tampa, FL and Philadelphia, PA.
I haven't had too many problems that I haven't felt I couldn't handle. I have had to do a lot of explaining to bosses and coworkers at times. But haven't haven't really felt unsafe because of my sexuality.
I was told by my boss at a previous that I was too gay and needed to stop my "pink dog and pony show." The odd thing, he was gay too, but not really out and was scared that people would think he was gay.
The prejudice I encounter most often is from people that are 'friends' and think I'm funny and good to talk to about fashion, but then will say 'well it's not like you'd be allowed to get married, it's wrong.' The other is in classes from faculty who refuse to address gay issues in class, mostly because they are too lazy to find out about them.
I first knew I wasn't like most boys in 2nd grade. My best friend at the time (a girl), was kissing a boy on the playground (in a 2nd grade way, not seriously) and this thought went through my that I wished I was her. I immediately thought, oh I'm not supposed to think that.
I started trying to look up what was going on at the library. Sadly the local library was stocked with books from the 50s mostly. I hoped it was just a phase that I was going through. By the time I was in 6th grade, it was pretty clear to me that it wasn't just a phase. By this point I was being teased pretty regularly in school. "Fag" was something I heard a whole lot growing up. It was a pretty tough time for me.
I was pretty afraid that my parents would be so disappointed and angry and embarassed if they found out. At church I learned that being gay meant I was going to hell. And in health class in my public school I learned that AIDS (which had just been named) was a disease sent by god to kill evil men. My mother told me around that same time that "funny men" as she called them wanted to hurt children and should be put to death.
All of this stress led to a suicide attempt when I was 13. I didn't want my parents to find out. When it didn't take, I figured I'd have to learn to deal with it, but I didn't come out to anyone until just before college. I knew I needed to get out of my little town and to place that would be more accepting.
I wish I knew. I think mostly it comes from a place of fear; fear of the unknown, fear of something different. I also think religion plays a lot into it. Some cultural theorists have suggested that homosexuality undermines traditional gender roles and challenges many assumptions about the way the sexes should interact. People may not be conscious of it, however.
I have encountered this at different times. It's mostly that folks assume they know all about you because they know this one thing about you. More hurtful are the discussions that either state or imply that somehow one is less than human or less deserving of dignity becuase of one's sexuality.
You're right, the coming out narrative has kind of played itself out as a literary form. While I do think that there are plenty of things that are interesting about me aside from my sexuality, I guessthat in answering the questions that folks have asked, I thought it would be helpful to frame them in the context of my story. I'd recommend looking at the other folks who have started similar articles. It seemed like a safe way for folks to ask questions of people they might normally be able to.
No, I've never really wished that I was female. I've always been quite happy being male. (That was one of the first questions my mom asked me when I came out to her.)
Folks might be surprised how much there are strong norms for masculinity in the gay male community. There is, from my perspective, a hierarchy in parts of the gay male community where masculine, 'straight acting' men are much more prefered over 'gay acting' ones. The media plays a big part in defining this, I believe.
And, did you come out to your parents after the suicide attempt? How did they handle it?
Thanks again for being open.
**Do you think that one can learn to understand one "gay" person by asking another gay person a question?
I think you can learn a lot about the experience that might give you insight into your daughter's life. It probably won't match up exactly, but should give you some ideas about what might be going on. It's a scary thing for both parties, I think.
**Is the gay experience in America fairly universal do you think?
I think there are certainly commonalities in the experience. Most people have a set of story about coming out to family and friends, for example. I think that as society becomes more tolerant, though, people's experiences become more diverse. There are more ways to "be" gay today then there were 50 years ago, I think. But there are enough commonalities that folks can pretty much idenitfy with each others' lives.
**Obviously people are individuals, but do you think most straight people in this country tends to group them together?
I think that for folks that don't know a lot of gay people, the one or few that they know become the template for all gay people. The funniest manifestation of this is the "set-up" when someone knows two single gay men or gay women, they, of course, would make a perfect couple. Regardless of the fact that they have very very little in common save for the fact that they are both gay. It's so well intentioned that it's not offensive, but it does make me laugh.
**And, did you come out to your parents after the suicide attempt? How did they handle it?
My parents didn't know about the attempt. They were away for the day and I had everything back in order by the time they got home. I came out to my mom during my first semester in college; she didn't really talk to me for about 3 months. I think she really blamed herself for it. She made me promise not to tell anyone else in the family. We never really talk about it. I'm think she's afraid to ask and I don't want to push anything on her. She's gotten better in very cute ways. She works in a bank and will sometimes tell me stories about two women or two men with "joint checking" and how she tries to be nice to them because the other girls (her word) at the bank will make fun of them. I do wish she'd just ask me about my life, I don't want to share anything she's not ready to hear. I'll usually tell her if I've been dating someone for a while. But she never asks about them again, typically.
**Why are gay guys nicer to me?
Because they aren't interested in sleeping with you. :) They can still be pretty mean to each other; it's not some inherent goodness that they possess. I think that my own experiences with discrimination have made me more sensitive and able to see it elsewhere (although I still have my -isms and -phobias to work through). In my case it was women who were the safest to be around when I was not out and coming out.
**What does being gay mean to you?
That's a great question, and I think the answer to it changes all the time. A lot of the time it has very little direct meaning. I work most of the time with statistical research in my current job--it doesn't advantage me or disadvantage me much one way or the other.
It often means I have to be more aware of my surroundings when I'm in new places. I have to be more aware of my speech and my mannerisms; to make conscious decisions about how gay I want to appear.
It means I can be close friends with women without thier husbands getting upset. It means that when I go to a new city for work, I can always meet people by tapping into the gay community there.
I might have to think about that one more and get back to you.
I think college groups, specifically, develop really strong norms around their purpose and membership (regardless of the type of group it is) and it was more those norms that you and I were bumping up against than anything else. My guess is that the time had something to do with it as well; in times and places where it is less safe to be gay, there is probably a heightened awareness about people coming into the group for reasons other than support. It's sad and frustrating when a group that is about being oneself is less than supportive about other's decisions.
Why is male homosexuality considered unmasculine by so many heterosexuals?
I didn't really know what slash was until I read your question in Racheline's article. I'm not really familiar with it enough to know who's writing and who's reading it. It seem like it's just harmless fantasy. I'm not really knowledgable enough to comment though. Sorry.
Interesting question.
I actually did some research on this for a paper for school. Until the 12th C., homosexuality didn't really have that connotation. In Greek times it was considered more masculine than heterosexuality. In early Jewish culture it was morally wrong, but not feminine. The first reference I found to gay men being feminine was in Chaucer. I think it grew from a popular theory at the time (which held pretty well through 18th C and still is around a bit today) that one's internal qualities were represented externally, physically. Homosexuality was immoral (sexually), women (Thanks Eve!) were also immoral (sexually), so a man who was this way would have more feminine characteristics. I'm still working out the details.
This idea flourished pretty well. Interestingly, it was gay men in NYC in the 1920s and 1930s who really cemented it. In what was becoming a nascent gay culture (which only really sprang up within large cities) some men in New York started refering to themselves as fairies. They took all the stereotypes and played them to the hilt (a lot of descriptions of them from the time refer to fluffy sweater sets with pearl buttons). They did this, I think, to make a stake at reclaiming their identity and to make themselves more readily identifyable to each other. They were still pretty trapped in gender roles though. They wouldn't really sleep with another fairy, they prefered "trade," more masculine, often married men.
Some less researched thoughts:
*I think that as an "invisible minority" some folks try to create more identifiable markers for society. To make these recognizable, it involves playing to stereotypes. This creates a kind of bubble of protection around a person who is more visibly gay--someone who doesn't want to befriend a gay person would just stay away. This also happens after a stint of being fairly repressed as well, sometimes it's like pulling the top off a pressure cooker. You just want to be militant and in-your-face about it. (Most developmental theorists have a stage like this, not just for gay folks but all minorities.) What these things mean, though, is that the gay people that are the most identifiable to people that don't know them are the ones who have mannerisms that are fairly stereotypical. The data that the average person has on gay people is (in statistical terms) truncated or self-selected and it creates the illusion that all gay men act that way. (That was really rambling sorry.)
I also think that once you are already out of the mainstream, it frees you up to explore other non-mainstream ways of being or acting. I knit, for example. A pretty feminine thing. But it had more to do with spending time with my grandmother and trying to learn more about her and her life than with any kind of political or sexual orientation kind of statement.
Hmm. In general yes, but in particular no...from my experience. From what I've seen there can be as many rules about behavior, looks, morals, etc as there are in any other group. But when the group is smaller, it's harder to divide up by those issues. When I lived in Philly, there were different bars for different groups of people (twinks, bears, older, younger, men, women, etc) but in Bloomington, there is only one bar, so everyone gets thrown together. I've enjoyed it because I've had the chance to meet people that I wouldn't have spoken to and people who probably wouldn't have spoken to me otherwise.
In general, though, the group is more tolerant but is not exempt from their individual upbringings. That means that folks still struggle with sexism, classism, ageism, body image issues, and racism just like any other person.
Individuals, though, once they have really become comfortable with themselves, usually feel more free to explore a bit or to reconsider things. I grew up in an area with almost no minorities, but as I came out I realized that my experiences being gay were likely similar to the experiences of racial or religious minorities. I think that made me more sensitive. I still had a hell of a lot to learn.
Thanks for your thoughtful answer to my and other's questions. Your answer about adopting behaviors out of the mainstream in order to provide a bubble of protection makes sense for a couple of people I know. It actually reminds me of some of the behaviors of some hetero teens I knew when growing up. They protected themselves from being rejected by adopting behaviors that let people know they didn't want attention long before there would have been any. I always wondered why they would do that, especially when I got to know them better and found that they really were afraid of rejection. I'm also kind of wondering if that is what my daughter is doing by staying away from me. Her sister is not as accepting of the gay lifestyle as I am, and maybe she doesn't want to have to deal with me being being disappointed or whatever she may think. I think I'll test the waters by writing a letter to let her know that I haven't changed, I still love her and think that who she is is absolutely perfect. Thanks for the help!
Jessie, send me an email of and I can send you the paper.
Okay, I have noticed from certain male gay friends of mine that there are Wills and there are Jacks, (Will & Grace). I have known certain male gay friends since they were around 10 and were so obviously Jack from a young age. I am talking about the stereotypical GAY SPEAK and the mannerisms of overly gay males in their femininity and I have known of few of the Wills for long time and when they came out I was like WOW, really? I have known more Jacks than Wills and I wonder if you can give your opinion of whether gay males that I do believe are born gay are also born with (for lack of a better word) this speech impediment? I am not trying to be rude but it's very hard to put in words so I hope you get the gist. :D
Thanks. :D
As a kid who was in speech therapy all through elementary school to be rid of a lisp and who still sometimes gets called ma'am (albeit a very Kathleen Turner kind of ma'am) on the phone, I'm not sure. David Sedaris, the commedian described his speech therapy class in elementary school as "the future homosexuals of America club." Given the boys that were in mine, I'd be inclined to agree. I'm not sure why for some folks this trait does seem very apparent. I know that I tried for a long while to make myself sound more "masculine" but then I just gave up.
I don't know if being gay is genetic or not or has some genetic component or not (I tend to think that it must). If it did, it might affect other things like voice, I'm not really sure. I did know a man in college who had a very 'gay' voice, but was straight.
Jack and Will existed as characters because they do exist in real life. But they are certainly not the only types there are. I think a lot of gay men would say that on a scale of gayness, Will is pretty gay. There are men I've known that were a lot more "straight acting" than he is.
I guess I think of it as a kind of subtle bilingualism. There are conventions to a 'gay speech' that one can put on or take off, like there are to other minority groups. Some folks kinda choose to stay in that modality, I think for the reasons that you suggest: to make their sexuality more clear, or as a kind of rejection of the need for there to be only one way to be masculine.
So I'm not sure if there is a real answer to your question beyond my anecdotes and conjecture, but it was fun to think about.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/301513/ask_a_gay_dude_dave_chappelle/
Anything to get back on tv, Dee Snyder.
EXCELLENT thread. I really don't have a question because I'm really a gay man inside. I was just at Loehmann's a few hours ago, in Chelsea no less! So many very well maintained boys. *sigh*
Anyway, I think the gay speech pattern may come from more intense interaction with women than other men. I would guess that most gay men have more close bond with girls growing up and take on their mannerisms including speech. Just a guess on my part.
I do see some similarities to what you have went through during school and the time that I was in school.
Lee
Good question. One story comes to mind, in particular. I worked at a school with a large Indian population. One of the students I worked with was dating a boy that her parents didn't know about. One day when we were talking about it, I shared a book on coming out with her, telling her that she was basically in a closeted relationship. The book really helped her think through things. Word spread and suddenly I was being approached by many of the Indian students who wanted to talk about their relationships. I became the advisor for the Indian Students' Association. I think that never would have happened if I wasn't gay.
I'm just waking up and starting my day so my mind isn't quite churning yet to comment on some of the comments left here. And I'm watching the rest of Thoroughly Modern Millie.
It does, I think, on many levels. I think this happens for several reasons, one is that your life will mold itself around that part of your identity. Your friends will know for the most part. Those that don't accept will fall out of your orbit. You will start new jobs and meet new people as a gay man, so the need to come out all the time will dimish. Those in your family who do not yet accept things will learn to at least deal with it if not embrace. Good luck to you. :)