Today's Topic: How does one's (trans)gender affect how they do their job?

I think we need laws that prevent firing for any reason other than bad performance on the job or some activity or action that threatens the employer. Like a teacher being convicted of pedophilia.

This is ridiculous.

The same words came up for me - this is rediculous. And why should he have to tell anyone about his personal business, albeit it would be obvious. Would I have to tell people I'm going to shave off my beard or color my hair (they couldn't fire me for the latter becaus eit would be considered age descrimination). I think he should be commended to stepping up to the plate to follow his inner self - they should promote him to recognize his clarity

Again....ridiculous.

We should be embarrassed as a society that we allow this kind of persecution to go on. Assuming this human being has done his job well for the past fourteen years, I would expect her to go on and do her job just as competently following the surgery. And that IS what this should be about: job performance.

The time to advise his employer, in my opinion, would be just prior to taking the time off to go in for the surgery. I would think it would be appropriate to let them know he'd be coming back as a female. No one has to agree that the decision this man is making for himself is "right" because it's none of our business; it's not illegal. I'm sure the man has gone through his own private hell to come to this decision in his life.

People who worry about what example this sets for their children have some kind of myopic view of the world where they convince themselves that, if they can't see it, it doesn't exist. This type of limited thinking is where the actual danger lies. We can't MAKE everyone in the world do what WE want them to do. Accepting that "these things exist" enables discussion. Choosing instead to whisper, shun and close one's eyes breathes life into what we should absolutely fear the most.

For the record: I'm a Christian.

I agree with all the previous posts - it's about job performance - not about what people do in their private lifes. jean

This is very touchy subject, just like abortion. This is a hard call. Making a sex changed is not so private. It is not like being gay where you can keep that more out of the public view, if you choose. Changing your sex is very obvious. People conduct themselves differently with a man than a woman. It is just in our nature. That is because men and women have different brains from eachother, thanks to hormones. And in order to have a sex change, you have to go through hormone therapy which will change the way you behave and even the way you think. So, in an essence on that point, Mr is not going to be the same person that was hired for the job.

I am just trying to be logical about this. Getting into a Biblical view about this is whole another can to open on this kind of subject. But I am only going to touch on the subject because of how this article was started.

Our country is basically a Christian nation, whether or not you proclaim to be one or not to be one. There are many company's here in our country that are Christian companies and because of that I do not support laws that protected discrimination against gays/lesbians or transgendered people.

Look, I am not trying to be a "holy than thou" person. I just believe what I believe and I believe that when you are any of the above, you are just calling God a liar by denying your gender that you were born with. To do that is either heresy or blasthemous.

I think Christian companies should have the right to hire, not hire or fire someone who is ungodly. To keep them whould be allowing "sin in the camp". (see the Bible about the battle of Jerico for what happened with that.) Who is government to say who a company can and cannot hire? What about that company's vision and plan for success? Can't they be allowed to decide upon that?

I know that this guy's job was with the City. Therefore it is not a private company so the matter would be different. But going back to my first point, hormone treatment will change the person he is. He will not be the same person that they originally hired. Would it hinder the job? I can't really say. But I feel that the City did the right thing. Now after the sex change, should she (was he) want to apply again for the position and was to be hired, then it would be ok and make sense. They would now consider her (that was a him) to be a different person altogether that could do the job.

"Our country is basically a Christian nation, whether or not you proclaim to be one or not to be one."

No. America's legal system is a secular institution, banned by the First Amendment from recognizing any religion as the basis for law. There have been over a hundred years of legal precedent going all the way back to the 1800s which define American law as totally separate from religion.

"I think Christian companies should have the right to hire, not hire or fire someone who is ungodly. To keep them whould be allowing "sin in the camp"."

But you were just saying that you weren't trying to be holier then thou... Now the idea of an "ungodly" person can mean anything. In Christianity, if someone worships in a different way then you, you can declare them ungodly. That's been done for the last thousand years in the West. Today we no longer burn people for this, but the concept of the accusation remains the same.

Based on your idea of who's godly and who's not, we may have to fire just about everybody who's not you, your family or your friends. Oh and according to your argument if someone is a good worker, benefits the company and does a great job, he or she should still be fired because he/she doesn't worship your way. That's not how the economy advances. That's how a thriving economy is ruined.

"But going back to my first point, hormone treatment will change the person he is. He will not be the same person that they originally hired."

That's utter and complete nonsense. It's not like he's having a brain transplant. If he gets a brain transplant, then he would be a different person. If he's just doing a few snip and tucks and some hormone injections, his brain will remain unaffected. It will be the same person with the same skills, the same ideas, the same work ethic and the same personality.

You can feel and think whatever you want, but sooner or later you have to look at the facts and the logic of the case.

Stephanie,

If I had an accident where I could no longer hear, it too would impact my brain. Would that give the people I work for the right to fire me if my ability to perform wasn't based on my hearing? In fact, our brains change all the time. Her brain changed in the 14 years that she worked there. Your grasp on the neuroscience of it is tenuous at best.

I am embarrassed that this guy would stand up and say this :
"If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he'd want him terminated." – Pastor Ron Saunders of the Lighthouse Baptist Church, Largo, FL
I don't think Jesus would say any such thing . If Jesus was was there in person, he would have compassion on him . and if He felt it was a sin issue , He would tell the man to go and sin no more .

i feel this person should be given the chance to show that they can still do the job and if job preformace changes and becomes completely horrible then and only then should they be let go. It is not right to do it just because they are changing gender.

When i was in high school there was a teacher going threw a divorce and it wrecked her life she was a different person but she was not fired because the school knew after time she would heal and get back on track. this person should be given that same chance because everyone of us will go threw some sort of change even if its an illness that may effect job preformance for a short time and i do not think that is a reason to be fired. No one will always be perfect

In answer to your original title question: "How does one's (trans)gender affect how they do their job?" My gut answer? It doesn't.

The pastor's quote screams my major issue with this firing. Presuming the pastor sees the city manager's move as a "sin" (evidenced by his reference to Jesus), then it would only be consistent for him to believe that it is right to also fire anyone else for "sins" un-related to their job ("all sins are equal in the art of God"). It is alarming that a city -- a U.S. governmental entity -- is so far being permitted to legally descriminate based on religious standards! What has happened to the separation of church and state? Applying the same standards, they must also fire any employee who fibs to their spouse, sasses their parents, eats pork...

Even so, the Jesus of the Bible might have kicked the city manager out of his tight-knit group of desciples, but I don't have any reason to think he would have gone into the person's place of employment to convince those there to have him fired.

It was interesting to read Carol "L'Enfant terrible"'s post on her real-life experiences working with a transgender contractor. My first thought is that the lateness wasn't a matter of going through reassignment surgery and was instead a matter of the way many contractors are.

Carol did bring up some good points about the draining impact of hormon replacement therapy, but I can apply this same "drain" to most any non-fireable malady: AIDS, cancer, pregnancy, new baby, divorce and so on. You can be fired for letting any of these issues greatly affect your work (assuming you don't have the sick leave available), but in non-"At Will" employment states you can't get fired just for announcing your situation.

I understand why the city manager told the powers-that-be about his upcoming procedures -- given that opinions can run high about this issue. But I do not believe that the city manager had any obligation to disclose this information! It's his body, his decision, his life ... it's not up to city to get "comfortable" with his own decisions for himself. By bringing the issue to them it got people talking and sent the wrong, and disastrous, message that it was up to them to "put a stop to this."

How ignorant, and disgusting. I also didn't like the way the mayor stood up and then backed down, or perhaps, "away" would be a better word. Talk about doing a flip flop on conviction.


Stephanie,

//And in order to have a sex change, you have to go through hormone therapy which will change the way you behave and even the way you think. So, in an essence on that point, Mr is not going to be the same person that was hired for the job.//

Of course this individual will go though changes. What does that have to do with evaluation of that individual's ultimate performance. Perhaps "she" will want to become a ballerina? If "she" decides she still likes her job and can do that job, why ever should she not be given the chance? If you had an accident or illness that interfered with your job, do you think you should have the chance to go back to your job or not?

I'm sure there are many employers who would like the discretion to say: You didn't do your job properly today so 'good bye -- you're out.' How does one equitably measure performance in general?

Judging from the comments made by the various city council members, there are no second chances for anything. The woman who said "you are being selfish" is obviously a tad shy in the "humanity" and common sense department. I wonder if she would want to fire someone who got a "nose job" or a "boob job."

Do you support laws that protect gay people and/or transsexual people from being fired on the basis of those identities? YES.



Despite how you may feel about Stanton's gender identity, do you question his integrity for not disclosing his plans to the city until they were almost leaked?

NO, anymore than you would disclose any other surgery or rehabilitative treatment. I'm assuming he told "someone" that he would be away for awhile. Seeing the invective that was directed at him, he probably gave this considerable thought.

Do you think undergoing this treatment necessarily hinders one's ability to do their job successfully?

NO, but if it does then the individual should be accorded the same consideration as any other employee.

For one thing, if that was my pastor I'd leave that church. For another, when a church leader takes a stand like this to interfere in secular town politics, his church needs to lose its tax-exempt status or fire that leader, because he has overreached. This isn't his business and it's pretty clear from the content of his remark that he's not speaking for any Jesus that's in the Bible by advocating discrimination.
If the practice of discrimination against gender identity is allowed to continue, how long will it be before laws creep back on the books discriminating on the basis of race, sex, and religion again? (Not that those laws are 100% effective either, but they're a start.) No country ever moved toward an ideal of freedom by moving backward.

Stephanie--Your commentary implies that you believe a woman couldn't adequately handle the job. You seem to be saying that they hired a man and now they're going to be "saddled" with a hormonally-driven woman. I feel like you need the shutters drawn back so the light of the new day can shine in and burn up your myriad misconceptions. Women are accepted as fully capable thinkers and doers today, whatever our hormones may be up to.

"Religious" people give those of us who happen to believe in God a bad name. No human sucking air is clean of sin and none of us should assume it is our right to cast out others—from anything—because WE view them as "sinners." The very act of doing so is ungodly.

As for the rest of your expressed thoughts, I think Greg and the other respondents did a nice job rebutting.

Yes. Our nation is basically a christian nation. The constitution protects our freedom of religion thru separation of church and state which means the government shall pass no laws establishing one national religion.

I don't see how this is a religious issue.

Exactly the point--it isn't a religious issue.

If he was doing his job, what's the problem?
Oh, I forgot, the problem is that sexual orientation is the last open bigotry we have.
If he doesn't get the job back, I hope the town gets someone they deserve...and we read about how Key Largo is now in conservatorship because of the new heterosexual evangelical(prolly follwing Haggard's cult) city manager put them there!

It is a privilege that comes WITH rights, Brandon. And anywhere we find discrimination or harassment, we ought to, as a society, care enough to address it. I would think that should especially be true in jobs where the salaries come out of the taxpayer's pockets. In an ideal world, government jobs would set an acceptable standard for the private sector to follow.

Obviously, those who commented on my response didn't really READ it.

T.D. - No I didn't insinuate that a woman couldn't do the job. READ my comments AGAIN.

Greg F. - you better go look up the scientific and medical facts that men and women are different. If they weren't, what would be Steve Stanton's purpose in making a sex change? He wouldn't have to if men and women were the same.

Discrimination - YES we should be discriminate because if we aren't, who is to stay what is right or wrong?

Miss W. - a nose job or a boob job doesn't affect your hormones.

John M - "She" was not a "she" for the past 14 years. Steve has been a "he" for the last 14 years and has not started the hormone therapy, therefore, there wouldn't be any reason to look or see if there was any affect on his job performance.

One has to wonder, Did Steve Stanton come forward to see if they would fire him so he could sue for discrimination? Did he have an underlying agenda for personal gain by doing this. If this was so private of a matter, why disclose this publicly? I say he had a personal agenda.

Stephanie--Sorry, but I definitely won't be reading your comments again. (And, in direct contrast to your demanding statement, I can tell you that without "yelling" at you.) I feel quite certain that a second read through wouldn't make your comments any less obtuse.

I suppose it might make me a bit of a hypocrite because, frankly, I'd rather look away and believe that your type of thinking simply doesn't exist rather than waste any more time addressing it. It's not my job to bang my head against the wall in an attempt to enlighten you. Besides, efforts in futility just aren't my thing. Life is too short.

But I would suggest you tune up your spelling skills. Example: Blasphemous is not spelled with a "t." ;)

That's funny, I've pretty much always voted conservative--mostly because I have a white knuckled grip on my money.

I wish to live in a "free society," but I'm not completely selfish in that wish. I also have the desire for others to live in a free society, too. There are fine lines that need to be drawn; it's not an easy task. The whole golf course scenario is on another channel from a man keeping a job he'd already had for 14 years.

Besides the "goon" remark, and maybe the "coercion" jab, I could sympathize with your points, in theory, Brandon. I just disagree on the execution. It's a hard line to walk, it's not always enjoyable, but I'd rather err on the side of fair treatment for the masses.