Today's Topic: Is the Confederate flag inherently racist?

It's a bunch of Bullshit is what it is. Tell 'em the war is over, and we won. The flag is nothing more than a symbol of America's greatest divide ever, the Civil War. That war was based on control and slavery. There should not be any celebration of this breach of unity, at least not on government property, paid for and maintained by public tax dollars.

Yes indeed the Stars and Bars needs to be hauled down after 130 years. It only flew over a real nation for 4 years, and that nation was based on a shared desire to defend a way of life that included slavery. Sadly, many poor white southern farmers died in the Civil War to defend an institution, slavery, that did not benefit them in any way. In the same way, many southern rural voters now cling to the absurd symbols of a stillborn nation despite the fact that they are the beneficiaries of the New South. Instead of chopping cotton or sawing wood, they are able to join the service economy free of the dead weight of a black race kept in misery and servitude by the Jim Crow laws.
It is time to realize that the same misplaced mindset that gave rise to the Civil War also contributes to the anachronistic pandering to its symbols. Do you want to get in a time machine and go back to live in those days of mortality, starvation, hatred, and utter ignorance? No? Are you happy being a citizen of the USA? Then Shut Up and haul down the damn flag.

In the preceding rant I failed to mention the courage and determination and sacrifice of the CSA's soldiers. Granted, they gave the last full measure of devotion. But courage and sacrifice in a misguided struggle are at best a mixed blessing and at worst .... Robert E. Lee is regarded as a demigod in some circles for keeping the South alive as long as he did. I say: if he had been less competent, fewer widows would have died looking at the back of a mule. His efforts at reconciliation and his service as president of Washington and Lee University were helpful, but his lack of political understanding that the War was unwinnable was a flaw.

A few years ago here in Chesterfield County Virginia, the Board of Supervisors declared a Confederate History Month. Not Civil War history month, mind you. When the protests on both sides started up we became a laughingstock. Before it was over we had visits from David Duke and the Worldwide Church of the Creator, and it was not fun. Please, let's let this die. It has gone on too long.

It is interesting that most northerners feel this way, the civil war was about far more than slavery, it was about a lot of things,one being the north wanting to exert control over the intire country. Many northern farmers were slave owners, and that did not change because of the war. The various versions of the Confederate flag flew over different regiments fighting in the war. these men fought for their rights, beliefs, and land. They fought under these flags, to desecrate the flags is to dishonor those who fought and died. They were still Americans regardless of your thoughts on the war.Yes it was an ugly chapter in american history, but those men were doing what they had a God given right to do, stand up for what they believed in. Thats why our ancestors left england, because of the oppression. These men were fighting what they saw as oppression. Slavery was only one side of the whole ugly affair. Comparing the confederate battle flag to the Nazi party flag , and comparing me(a good ol boy), To Hitlers SS troops who senslessly murdered millions of Jews is ignorant and offensive. I would guess that you also compare Pres Bush to Hitler on a regular basis. My advice to you is study your history a little better, There is never a need to compare hitler to anyone, unless you are talking about the genocide in Darfur that the UN is condoning.

Private citizens should be able to fly any flag they want wherever they want. State capitols should fly the American flag and the state flag. That being said, I don't think the Confederate flag is automatically a racist symbol. People are racists, not flags.

The confederate flag is not racist. The confederacy was about far more than owning slaves and there are many proud descendants of members of the confederacy. They are entitled to their history and their symbols.

Chris, I lived in Midlothian at the time you describe and I was proud of the County Commissioners for declaring Confederate History Month. It was, as I know you recall, in direct counterpoint to black history month which was crammed down our throats every January. I was disappointed when they buckled under and was not at all embarrassed by the ensuing kafuffle.

The Civil War was about more than slavery, granted. But take away slavery, and all the other things did not add up to a war.
If you think the Confederate Flag is such a good thing, stop waving the stars and stripes. You can't have it both ways.

I am not a southerner and am not entitled to wave the confederate flag but I am a strong enough American that I think all of this comes under the 1st amendment and you other good Americans need to get over it.

The Confederate flag does represent the southern heritage which includes the ugliness of slavery.

It's ironic that the people who most would like to take away the power of symbols they dislike are the ones who ensure the shock value of those same symbols by yelling, whining and berating objects that would otherwise be mere historic artifacts. The American Civil War has proved to be an endlessly fascinating subject. Whole libraries and tons and tons of ink and documentaries and time and effort have been spilled and continue to be spilled on this subject. We can define ourselves around this epic conflict. And yet I find it difficult to speak with someone on this subject who has obviously read a book on it since high school. I believe those who would wave a confederate battle flag with the intention of conveying a specific message are as ignorant as those that infer a specific message when confronted with that same flag. We should not be a country of people who will trample other people because we suspect they might want to hurt us, much less that they might want to disagree with us. We do not teach our children such behavior, do we? There are many lessons to be learned from the study of any war. Simplistic slogans and catchphrases cannot define the American Civil War, neither can a flag.

Perhaps you are right, Douglas K. But there are black people still living who can remember living under the legacy of Reconstruction's failure: the separate schools and drinking fountains, the back of the Bus, etc. No matter what the Stars and Bars may mean or not mean to us, i feel it is lacking in civility to fly it because of what it may mean to them.

The confederate flag was and still is, simply put, the symbolic icon of the breakdown in unity of our country. That being said, straight forward and non-debatable, brings this simple fact to light..... The confederate flag, despite the former traitorous American men who fought and died under another country's flag, should not be flown on land that is in anyway, shape or form supported by American tax dollars. The confederate soldiers gave up their American citizenship when the took up arms and seceded from the union. They didn't fight and die under the American Flag, they fought under a lesser abled and degenerate symbol of arrogance and ignorance. There should not be any PROUD confederate descendants. If anything, they should burden an overwhelming sense of shame.

Talk about hatred for a particular sect of people. Thats racism Walter plain and simple, and I refuse to be ashamed of any ancestor of mine, sorry they dont measure up to your high standards.

Walter- Chris,

A little American history might help understand what the war was about or is that taught any more?

Read the tenth amendment and then read the history of why that particular amendment was inserted.

It is sad that during my lifetime the Confederate flag has become such a magnet to the politically correct thought police.

It was once a widely respected emblem and represented not so much the pride in military feats during the War Between the States, but in the determination and efforts exerted while surviving the indignities imposed during the occupation and political persecution of the Reconstruction.

The flag is now such a rallying point for thought police it is rarely displayed as it once was.

I can remember the Ole Miss band had a flag big enough to cover the entire band. They would march out of the end zone unfurling the flag as they went and the crowds loved it.

The Walters and Chris' of the new order have no idea of what they speak... How sad.

Jody and Bill, I've met good ol' boys from Arkansas and the deep south. I have no hatred or ill feelings towards any of them or you. What I stated, regardless of personal ideology, is that flying that symbol on government OWNED land is incongruous! I don't care if the Grand Ol' Ladies of the South, jump up and join arms and sing "the south's gonna do it again", it's a great song. I don't care if you fly it on your own property. I don't care if you think it isn't a symbol of hatred and racism to a large portion of the American Public, because it is, and does stand for, just that to them. You're entitled to practice your beliefs, hold your opinions, and take up arms to defend our country and go hunting, but you should not have a right to shove that symbol of defiance and hatred in the faces of the ancestors who were unduly exploited during that period, by Northern Farmers or Southern Farmers alike. It just isn't right and nothing you say will make it so.

Bill, God bless you and keep you. Here is the definition of the civil war, as it is in history books, not as you might like to glorify it:

The traditional definition of a Civil War is a war in which two governments fight for control over the same state. The Government of Abraham Lincoln viewed the conflict as a Civil War, with both sides fighting to govern the South. The other side, the Government of Jefferson Davis, viewed it as a war in which one sovereign nation (the United States) invaded another (the Confederate States).

Until we are able to ACCEPT history for what it was and not as we would like to rewrite and remember it, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but the flag will eventually come down or Federal aid dollars of all kinds should be withheld.

It's a just a matter of principle.

PS. Jody, I think you might have meant to call me "prejudiced" and not "racist' as you did. They have distinctly different meanings. ; )~

Bill H-
Oh yes, the "occupation and political persecturion of reconstruction". It was mean of those federal troops to try to shut down the lynch mobs and KKK when they burned barns and terrorized the recently freed blacks when they attempted to vote. It's a shame I am so ignorant of the real story of the south, as presented in "Gone with the Wind" and D.W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation".
I happen to believe that the Civil Rights Era was a pretty good thing and that we are all better off for it. Either slavery was good, or "all men are created equal". In my view it is inconsistent to reject slavery while feeling nostalgia for the culture that accepted it.

No, Walt you said no one of confederate descent should be proud, that we should all hold our heads in shame, that has nothing to do with where the flag is flying, you have insulted an entire race of people with very harsh words. Predjudice is a glossy pc, feelgood word, rascist is what it is. Slavery was wrong, opression was wrong, we still have a long way to go, but I refuse to be ashamed of my family because of choices they made when life or death was at stake. I guess it is easy to sit and pass judgement when you have all the facts.

Let me pose this question to all the Confederate supporters and wagon riders out there in GatherDixie.com. Would the south let the north fly their flag if THEY had won the war? I doubt it. The south can put whatever cushie feels good ideology on that blatant symbol of hatred if they wants to, it don't change the facts Jack. You are either a racist, card carrying, confederate flag waving supporter of hatred or you are an GENUINE AMERICAN. Proud to be a member of these UNITED STATES, not confederate states, OF AMERICA. I know where I stand and it ain't gonna change now.

The root cause of the civil war was the divide over the slavery issue and the battle within the Federal government between slave and free states over that issue. That being said, it is harder to link the flag with the institution. The institution existed before the creation of the CSA and one could argue that the CSA was a feeble attempt to preserve the status quo. I think in general most people associate it more with "Dukes of Hazzard" and illegal booze running than with a desire to return to the particular institution of slavery.

Christopher, I never made any such connotation. I don't believe that the south wants to rise again or for slavery to be reborn. I'm saying that you can't fly in on public grounds because it is a symbol of hatred, divide and racism. We wouldn't have David Dukes boys wavin' any flags up in here in NY despite the numerous racists we have living in this state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War

Read your history, not somebody's take on it.

That doesn't change the fact that it still holds a stigma of rebellion and hatred. I don't care if people wave that flag on their own property. I don't want any of my tax dollars supporting any state government that thinks it's ok to hold the "stars and bars" in such high esteem. Just like I don't want my tax dollars supporting abortions, etc. If you were the descendant of a black slave, you might feel differently about the whole thing. Actually, I know you would. It doesn't affect you, so have at it, eh?

I think the dead horse is dead. ; )~

Slavery was not just an issue in the South. Many people in the North were slave holders. That continued right on through the war up until slavery was abolished. And, for those of you who believe that the Civil War was a slavery issue I have this to say: You better pull out your history books and study up some. You're about to fail your finals. The Civil War was mainly fought over states rights. At that time the USA was in its infancy. Many Americans were still hurt by all the control the British government held over the colonies. There was an entire war fought for that too. It was called the American Revolution. Now, for those of you who aren't very good in history, I'll enlighten you. After the American Revolution the citizens of the US were fearful of one person wielding that much control over such a vast array of land and people. That's the reason our govenment is a republic and not a monarchy. Many of the early Americans were for smaller state controlled affairs and not centralized big government. When the centralized government started telling Southern states what they could and could not do, the South rebelled. THAT is what the Civil War was about. The individual rights of states to govern themselves. I don't see slavery mentioned in that, do you? And, becuase the Confederate flag is a part of history, yes it should be allowed today. And, no, I don't think the Nazi flag is the same. Hitler and the Nazi party was about killing people. The Confederate States of America were not. That's like comparing apples and oranges.

How would a Texan compare flying a Confederate flag or a Mexican flag over their state house? It was once part of Mexico and was part of the confederacy. Hummm.

Again, Mitch. Slavery did not exist just in the South. The Northerners owned slaves as well. So, if that makes the South racist, then so is the North. I think when you mention racism you mean with Jim Crow laws and thing like that. That was after slaves were freed and after "The War of Northern Agression" (as we sometimes call it) ended. So, by your definition that has absolutely nothing to do with the Confederate flag becuase it's a flag of a government that had already been defeated.

I brought it up because I and alot of other people don't see how you get that the Confederate flag is racist. As I said, the Civil War was not about slavery, but states' rights. How can you call that racist? Therefore, I can only conclude that such racist laws are what you had in mind. I'm sorry. You weren't clear on how you get to the fact that the flag is racist. However, if you think the Confederate flag is racist, why not the American flag in general. Americans (in general) regardless of where they lived, owned slaves and proudly flew the American flag way back before the Civil War was ever thought of. You know why you don't see the American flag as racist? Because it isn't. And, neither is the Confederate flag.

Also, I thought I did answer your original question about the Nazi flag. The Nazi flag is a symbol of death and genocide. Hitler and the Nazi party killed many Jews, gypsies, and others. Because of that, the Nazi flag has become symbolic of death. Like I stated earlier the Confederate flag does not symbolize death. We, in the South, did not kill millions of anybody. No, I do not think the Nazi flag would be appropriate. Again, it's like comparing apples to oranges. You can't say oranges are anything like apples. They are two different things. So are the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag.

Actually, Mitch, alot of my African American neighbors have Confederate flags of their own. Why? Because they realize that the CSA and the confederate flag and the Civil War were not ABOUT slavery. Did the CSA allow slavery? Yes. It was an economic practice, not what the entire country was about. Also, if you do some research, the vast majority of Americans at any given point in time did not own slaves. Only the weatly and elite did. You and I will not agree on this issue, and that is ok. At least in my opinion. So, you might as well agree to disagree with me becuase I have no intentions of arguing this point. It will never come to an end. This debate has been going on for years and will continue to go on until the end of time. I've said my point. You've said yours.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I have read all of your opinions, debates, disagreements, etc. and felt compelled to add my two cents. Michelle, you had a couple of valid facts, but I have to go with Walter on this. Let me just say, "Sometimes people are too close to a THING to really see it for what it is. Regardless of the War between the North and the South, and all of that hocus pocus bull they put in our textbooks back in the 70's (I mean come on guys, who do you think wrote history?) If a person wants to be a proud, known racist...so be it. But don't do it on the soil that your tax paying opposers' help to maintain. Keep it in the closet. The Confederate Flag is not the American Flag...plain and simple. And Black America (notice I didn't say African Americans, just as I don't say European Americans, or Irish Americans, get my gist) does not need another thing to remind them that the "Dirty South" will never see them as equal. So, if you are going to be POLITICALLY CORRECT, the Confederate Army is dead and gone, the U.S. Army lives on...Welcome the new Millenium!

Really Michele, the CSA did not merely "allow" slavery. They took up arms and died by the hundreds of thousands to defend their right to do what they wanted with black skinned humans. There is a bit of a difference between those two propositions.

Brandon, in my case you are wrong. I personally live in a very rural area of New York State and we have plenty of racist bigots living amongst us. I'd say that most of my neighbors fit the definition of "Redneck" to some degree or another, including myself on a great many issues, but right is right and until the question was posed to me of the editor, you're correct, I hadn't really given it much thought, as I don' t live in the south and I am not bombarded with images and icons as reminders of a time in American history that is a blemish for all of us. What you're personal views on the flag are, are of your own and those who share your views business, but don't expect the taxpayers (Republican or Democrat or Independents) to pay tax dollars to support such a staunch symbol of defiance. Just like was said awhile back... why don't you let the Mexicans put up a few of their flags on public and state government buildings and properties in Texas? Or hey, maybe we can start letting 'al Qaeda' fly a few of their flags over some of the skyscrapers of NYC or Washington, D.C. The reason is that they are not the Stars and Stripes. They do not qualify as an flag of The United States of America anymore or anyless than a confederate flag does. We don't call a confederate flag Old Glory. We don't sing a National Anthem when we stand in front of one and I'm sure that most Americans (good ol' boys included) don't remove their hats and place them over their hearts when they see the stars and bars displayed. Some do, but like some of the posters, they are members of a dying breed and eventually, it's only gonna be the Red, White and Blue that's flying.

wow this is such a topic! I was born and raised in Louisiana and now live in Oregon. I am only 23, so I don't have a real understanding of the deep rooted issues of race, but what I do know is that damn flag is embarrassing. Like it or not, agree with this or not, but a lot of folks see the confederate flag to be symbolic of many ugly things. Perception is the key word here. We can debate over the "true" meaning of the flag (as has been done here), but the real meaning of something symbolic is always buried in the interpretation of individuals. The symbol is perceived by many to stand for racist mindsets, and whether you choose to think this or not, it is still viewed by many in this manner. Therefore, if you truly want to help move this nation forward-- together-- then it will take some real maturity to consider the feelings of others, and maybe just keep the pride within your property and within your heart for whatever reasons you choose. Dr. King's message was of LOVE and cooperation, and the confederate flag usually stirs hostility and misperceptions. I love my cajun food and jazz music, but my gut turns everytime I see a confederate flag, especially when it's on a jacked up 4x4 truck. I'm not claiming that every single person who sports it is racist, but what I can say for a fact, there is a very strong correlation between that symbol and racism, and I for one am ashamed to represent a place that still holds on to such ignorance. It is about damn time to just let it go.

The confederate flag is quite simply, not the flag of the United States of America. It makes no more sense to fly the Confederate flag on US government buildings than it does to fly the French flag.

I am as most people who know me to be quite liberal. I strongly agree with George's comment "Flags are not racists only people." Therefore, I feel there is nothing wrong with
the Confederate flag.

So Maureen does that mean that the flag of Germany's Nazi party isn't perceived as a racist symbol by millions of people across the globe, holocaust survivors and their descendants? I mean it's only a flag right? You're comment is as useless as a fart in a wind storm. Thank you for playing.

P.S. Maureen, your profile says that one of your "heroes" is MLK. Is that Martin Luther King? Because I'm sure he and a few other deceased black American's might also see the confederate flag as a symbol of oppression and racism. You may be liberal, but you are out of touch with reality and lacking compassion for a large portion of the American population.

Interesting indeed ~Juniper~!

A lot of good men and wimen died for the stars and bars. I do not think the flag is racist in that respect. I am a native American; Cherokee and Ottawa, if i were to look for signs of racism in a flag I wouldn't have to go any farther that the U S Flag. The history of relations between the United States government and Tribal people is one of racist and evil, but I still love this country and have no problem with the flag. Slavery was a much smaller issue during the civil war than people today try to make it. Several of the southern states had all ready outlawed slavery before the war started. Many southern soilders did not owe slaves. They were fighting for State's rights!
I've siad enough. I am sure there are people out there who want to shoot me right now for my stand.

Brandon, you're comment, as follows, "This is a state building not a FedGov building. It is up to the state's elected officials, who we assume are upholding the will of the majority and following the letter of the state's respective laws, that ultimately decide whether or not the flag stays or goes. Anytime this thing is put to a vote on the ballot in a statewide referendum it wins with a huge majority.",

is perfectly fine with perhaps a couple of exceptions.... First being state rights. If we use todays current events to determine to what degree states rights are influenced by Federal Guidlines and FEDERAL LAWS, we can look no further than to the current example of voter initiatives that would allow the legalized use of medicinal marijuana in Oregon, Vermont, Arizona and several other states. The fact remains that these states are not allowed under FEDERAL LAW to permit or make legal this practice, and currently none are doing so for fear of losing FEDERAL FINANCIAL AID which is contributed to and created by the tax dollars of all AMERICANS.

My point being this, if your state or any other state wishes to continue to fly the confederate flag or include its image on any flag, or embellish it onto any state government owned property, including parks, court houses, etc, I think it only fair and fitting that those states, choosing continued defiance in the matter, should have all FEDERAL FINANCIAL AID revoked until such a time that the FEDERAL LAWS are complied with, including these states' "symbolic surrender". This means no aid to schools, highways, infrastructure intiatives, etc.

Tell your elected officials and voters to put their money where their mouths are and I'm sure they won't be whistlin' dixie when it's all said and done.

The Confederate flag controversy did not arise in the 1980's, it was very much a feature of oppostion to Civil Rights. The flag did not go atop the South Carolina State House until 1962. Georgia added the confederate battle flag to the state flag in 1956 as a direct protest of the de-segregation of schools.

George Wallace began flying the Confederate battle flag over the Alabama state house in 1963 to protest Attorney General Robert Kennedy's audacity to visit the state following widespread police action to harrass and harm civil rights activists.

In Mississippi, Confederate flag-waving crowds of students attempted to prevent James Meredith from enrolling at "ole Miss, and the public comments of the time leave no question about the meaning of the Confederate banner.

Ditto all the other bastions of the "old south". Look it up - when did the south suddenly "rediscover" the virtues of their beloved symbol of treason.

The pernicious canard that the Civil War was not about slavery is one of the soothing fictions of the modern small government movement. Read what Jefferson Davis wrote about giving his life so that africans could not rise above the level to which God had ordained them.

Yes, there were competing ideas in the north and south about taxation and trade -which is inevitable in a mercantile and an agricultural based economic system, but to deny that slavery was not a cause of the war is ludicrous.

For 40 years, the South held both expanded homesteading and the admission of new states hostage to the need to protect a Senate majority that favored the "peculiar institution".

And, if there were a few slaves still living in the northern states, as one commenter noted, northern states had abolished slavery by the time the South seceded.

There would be some merit to re-claiming a beloved symbol of of heritage if this symbol was not linked continuously to opposition to Civil Rights.

Every one has a right to whatever idiotic symbols they treasure, but the fictions around these symbols and the anger they arouse should also rightly be heard.

If all the Confederate flag means is slavery to people, then we might as well dump the flag we have now as well. Slavery was an acceptable part of America before the civil war under our current flag. Other nations flags as well. I think the issue somewhat ridiculous, and South Carolina's alone to make as to what they do.
If you want to make it ugly, then it is. Other than that, what other flags or symbols should we ban?

There is way more ugliness represented in the confederate flag than just racism. See it for what it is and stop being so ignorant.

To Walter, there is also a lot of ugliness show under the history of the United States Flag. and to Chris, most people don't know or care to know, but five of the Southern States had outlawed slavery before the Civil War began. The issue was state's rights not slavery and the war was fought for that reason. Yes, the debate about slavery was a national issue but the fighting started after the Pres told the nation, that the federal government could dictate to the states what they could and could not do.