Thank you ACLU for stopping this hideous infraction. Prayer in a public school. I was wondering while you execute the punishment for Frank Lay and Robert Freeman who are accused of violating a consent decree by praying in Santa Rosa County in Florida by endorsing religion by praying, isn't it ironic that one of the men's names is "Freeman?"
Does anyone remember when this was true?
I'm glad they caught these terrible men, and the ACLU is so concerned with prayer, but allows gangs, cursing, and protects the civil rights of hoodlums in our schools by banning the terrible endorsement of religion.
Living in Oklahoma, I can tell you, we pray. We pray in public schools and at meetings.
God save us from prayers!
Oh my! Has anyone been in a public school since they took out prayer? Let me tell you, prayer is needed. If you don't believe Jesus, go ask Allah!
Frank Lay, principal of Pace High School, and Athletic Director Robert Freeman are accused of violating a consent decree banning employees of Santa Rosa County schools from endorsing religion.
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Comments: 94
Oh that's right it's not Christianity so that doesn't count.
Some people have religious beliefs, but they must listen to and write papers on evolution which completely contradicts there beliefs. Hmm, now that's not unfair that's just silly.
Let's make sure to not have any silence, some evil person might be praying.
If they were praying without forcing or leading others (esp students) on school grounds than this law is a violation of the First Amendment. Then if the ACLU was really that interested in civil liberties, they'd be defending these men.
I don't like to think, at all, that this should be a political issue of one party versus another party.
Ok enough of the funny business.
Since religion was taken out, about the time I graduated, I have to say right now that schools have gone down hill. The schools in Maryland are atrocious! kindergartners bringing knives to school for protection. Cops being at schools full time. You name it, its been happening. And its been getting worse.
When I was a teenager, Dave Roever, a Vietnam Vet would speak at schools about God and Jesus, and not long after I graduated it stopped. He was invited back to my high school years later, and could not say Jesus Christ, or give his testimony, I hear he came very very close to it, but abided by the terms. There was a tragic death of a classmate, and the school needed to hear what he had to say.
Its sad that people like Michael Newdough(sp) can dictate what they feel can be said in a classroom. People Like Madame O'Hara can make a statement and rise against God and Christianity.
people Like Obama sneak in Billions of dollars into the stimulus package to make sure God is not anywhere on the campus.
Would you like me to continue?
Mooch
I think it has to do with color TV. That's right. Color TV sets started becoming really popular in the early '60s and the quality of public education has been on a steady downward spiral.
OTOH it could be the Republican party's embrace of disaffected southern Democrats after the passage of the federal civil rights laws. Happened around that time too.
Could be transistors. Solid state electronics replaced vacuum tubes in the '60s.
If you want to pray then do it where it belongs...church or your home.
There is no reason in this world that people should have to be exposed to YOUR religion and intolerances.
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
Well I'm not congress, and staff of schools aren't congress either.
I'm so glad there are people like you that force non religious beliefs down, and make sure that Barry has every opportunity to take the God that this country was founded on out of this country!
Personally I can understand saying teachers should not organize a prayer session but to outright outlaw it? Well it infringes on an individuals personal rights. I can remember just a year or so ago, students at a local school gathered at the school 20 minutes early in the mornings to have a prayer session in the parking lot with each other. The school had no problem with this. The school board had no trouble with this. However, one day a teacher showed up and wanted to join. A week later, it was banned from campus. How was that hurting anyone? It wasnt. If public prayer hurts someone, I would say there are more issues that need to be addressed with that person than the issue of public prayer.
To me, if people can publicly talk about their beliefs or their lack of, then the same rights should be held by all individuals. Just my opinion though.
Will you marry me!
You people would be the first ones bitching and calling the ACLU if a Muslim wanted to pray to Allah before a school event.
When are you going to learn that seperation of church and state applies to Christians as well.
It is the other religions it dose not apply to.
I am currently a practicing Wiccan, I can recite a spell in any public place without one complaint or threat of arrest.
I was a Pentecostal and still believe in much of what I was taught, but if I were to pray that would be an entirely different matter.
What happen to freedom of religion? In fact what happen to just freedom?
So your point about "freedom" would be?????
Do you insist that the US was founded on pagan principles.
Do you stand outside of schools handing out a Book Of Shadows?
Do you push your religion on others and when they dont blindly accept call them names.
Do you think the war in Iraq is one of your gods wars.
We have freedom of and from religion.
If you worship fine but leave me out of your practises.
I hate to burst your bubble but this country was established by both Christians and Atheists who felt that having God in the Constitution was necessary. Even though some had no belief in a higher power they felt it needful to overlook their mindset for a majority who did. If only we could have the same humility and tolerance for all religions today, as our forefathers had then.
Read the Declaration of Independence it begins with:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,....."
Personally I don't believe there is any religion that holds all the answers. I have come across a slim few that I strongly feel hold no answers, but for the most part all religions hold the same kernels, that they hold as true, throughout all of them. They are just told in many different ways.
I don't believe that anyone has a right to force their beliefs on another, nor do I believe that anyone has a right to deny another their right to practice their beliefs. Although I could give you a list of religions (both Christian and non Christian) that "push" their beliefs on others through pamphlets and door to door salesmanship.
The way I see it is ... for one side or the other to get their way on the issue deprives the other of their rights. Which is how many of these social issues tend, religious or non religious. Whoever shouts the loudest, has the most influence and can convince our lawmakers get their way.
However in the end, someone has been denied a right. How dose one justify believing their rights are more important then rights of another? It makes no logical sense to say we believe in the rights of all, if only a select few are allowed to enjoy the privilege of rights.
You do have freedom from religion is the same way that those who wish to express it have their freedom of religion.
Silent prayer involves no one but the person who is doing so inside their own mind and body. I do not see how silent prayer includes anyone but that person in their activity.
It never ceases to amaze me how society justifies its punishment of crimes. A child molester can get probation with no time served, but praying is a prison offense. I just don't see how we can accept these things.
There are very few references to God in the constitution and most of those are just a matter of dates....In the year of our lord type of things.
Spin it all you want sweetie but the fact is that Christians only think that freedom of religion pertains to them.
Though I saw no defense for the remarks on rights I am grateful that you pointed out my mistake so that I could rectify it.
Did you really mean the sweetie part or was that sarcasm? Probably sarcasm huh. So much for not shoving ones ideas down the throat of another. Just point out what is easy to address and ignore the rest. Nice exchanging ideas with you though.
As far as other religions, just a few weeks ago I went to my first Sweat Lodge. They have prayer there but its to whatever creator you believe in. Out of respect I asked the person holding the sweat if my being Christian would be a problem in my attending. Not at all I was told. During prayer, I prayed to God they prayed to their Creator (which as it turns out for some of the others was God as well).
Point is I and many others dont shove our religious beliefs down anyone's throat. Not all Christians have a better than thou attitude. I am no better than a Muslim, Buddhist, or any other belief system out there. I dont ask them to hide their beliefs from me and I expect that same respect in return. If a Buddhist or Muslim wanted to pray while I was with them, I would remain silent and respectful of their prayer time. I would only hope anyone I was with would do the same.
I do think Jesus walked the earth not in the fictious way the bible proclaims but he was a real person. He did try and teach a message unfortunately his message has been lost for most.
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The Original intent of the letter from Jefferson was that CONGRESS shall not establish a state religion.
Since when are public schools Congress?
When my kids went to public school EVERY religion could be discussed at Christmas time, EXCEPT Christianity, and people wonder why I despise public schools? Its come to the point Christians are discriminated against.
It would be one thing if ALL religion was taken out, to include Islam and Muslim, but as soon as they try to do that they cry discrimination.
Mooch
also see 'First Amendment' section of the 'Law & Government' section
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [April 1, 1774]
"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" [Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819]
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" [Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822].
Mooch you may want to consider knowing what you are talking about before you start typing.
Lori, you're taking the words out of context also.
March 16 marks the 250th anniversary of Madison's birth, and while his role as the major architect of the Constitution is widely understood, his passion for securing religious freedom is not. "There is no principle in all of Madison's wide range of private opinions and long public career," writes biographer Ralph Ketcham, "to which he held with greater vigor and tenacity than this one of religious liberty."
Historians mistakenly ignore the importance of Madison's early education. Rather than going closer to home, he chose the College of New Jersey (later Princeton), an evangelical seminary known as both a citadel for republicanism and a haven for dissenting Presbyterianism. The influence of college president Rev. John Witherspoon--under whom Madison studied directly--is difficult to overstate. One of the assigned topics in Madison's senior year was to defend the proposition that "every religious profession, which does not by its principles disturb the public peace, ought to be tolerated by a wise state."
Madison's lifelong zeal for religious freedom began in May 1776 when state lawmakers wrote a new constitution for the newly independent Commonwealth of Virginia. The document contained a Declaration of Rights with a clause on religious liberty, penned by George Mason. The original clause declared that "all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience...."
Madison didn't like it. He objected to Mason's use of the word "toleration" because it implied that the exercise of faith was a gift from government, not an inalienable right. Madison's substitute--"all men are entitled to the full and free exercise" of religion--essentially won the day. This put Madison far ahead of John Locke, who generally mustered no more than grudging toleration for religious belief."
Lori
You might consider doing the same.
The full article can be found at http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/EM729.cfm
What it says is that all people have the right to pray which I agree with. I have the right not to have it in my life.
I dont want Christians, Muslims or anyone else trying to force their beliefs on me.
Pray but do it as it should be..in private.
Your relationship with whatever you feel your god is should be a private matter and none of my business which means keep it to yourself.
Reports can be written on every religion except that one. I do not understand how a prayer is forcing a religious belief upon anyone. No one had to pay attention. We are talking about rights here. And as a strong advocate of everyone's rights I think it is time for people to stop taking away the rights or one to establish the rights of another.
Your right you should not have to listen, and that is easy enough to do. Just don't, walk away, go lalalalala, but to place someone in prison for exercising their right is just wrong.
I remember prayer, I did go to schools that were Catholic, but I seem to remember some prayers in the 50's. I went to non-public schools since about the 7th grade, till I completed hs. Then just to other schools for different things.
BTW, I think religion is FINE, in schools, Christianity. Like any other religion if they don't force it on anyone, what's the problem?
And I also agree that schools deteriorate because no one allocates enough money to hire and keep enough good teachers!
If you pray, pray in secret, do not stand about on street corners shouting so all can hear. Hmmmm, gee, that sounds familiar somehow....
(oh wait, thats the fly)
But, please no bad spells, need a "good luck" one, instead.
You can come to our schools.
Lets all have a minute and Pray to ALLAH !
Allah oh Holy One you are the same God we all Pray to, please help some of these Christians know you are the same God.
Thank You Allah
Amen
And because they are the teachers, their example carries weight, which in this case it shouldn't.
And that goes for every single religion and faith, not just one...
Very well said.
And Sandy pointed out, Mr. Lay and Mr. Freeman can't be stopped from praying. But they can be stopped from illegally using their positions to promote their personal religious beliefs and proselytizing public school students.
Only if such "thinking out loud" violates somebody else's civil rights. You may be worried, but I'm not.
What these two guys did is just a part of what's been going on in that school system for over a decade -- a systematic violation of the rights of the children in their care. As stated in the complaint, the result of such behavior is that "students not only face overt compulsion to adopt the religious beliefs of school officials, but also must contend with subtle coercive pressures to conform their religious beliefs to those favored by school officials." That is not something kids should have to put up with in public schools.
Anybody can pray silently any time they want. Well, if you're getting a speeding ticket it's probably a bad idea to ignore the police officer asking for your license and registration and take a minute for silent prayer. Like most things in life you have to be conscious of your surroundings. :)
Pray sister woman, pray
tomorrow is another day only if G-d makes it so
there are reasons there are some things we will never know
there are reasons we are told the things we are told
faith is the path to truth and true happiness as we get old........
In the 70s I had a bible class in 4th grade. in the 80s I had a bible class in the 9th grade. It didnt change anything. The kids that wanted to be in those classes took them and the ones that didnt werent. There was no pressure on them. The christian kids didnt leave the class and rush out to the other kids saying they needed to be taking the class or going to church.
I see kids and adults publicly professing they dont believe in God or even that they hate God, but no one tries to stop that. So why is it it, that prayer is so publicly hated?
Oh and in the 70's there was prayer in my public school.
If you don't, you're living in a white neighborhood that's never seen a minority.
"If people took the same stand against this type of thing as they did against prayer would it just go away too? "
Of course it would. But its primarily seen as a "minority problem", and therefore hasn't really been widely addressed. But wait.. as soon as it properly infiltrates the Anglo world, like school shootings and Columbine, there will be discussion. Just wait...
"So why is it it, that prayer is so publicly hated? " Scopes Monkey trials and the (thank-Gaiea-its-dead!) Butler Act. If they hadn't been so adamant about their views usurping science's views, it would never have been such a problem. Had they been fair about it....
There's also that little Salem Witch Trials thing, the Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, 9/11, Jerry Falwell, Louis Farrakhan, Christian Identity,....
Anything beyond "Be excellent to eachother" typically results in a bloodbath or two or several thousand....
Of course students are allowed to pray in school. If some kids want to get together at lunch and pray, by all means go for it. But there is a distinction between that and when a teacher or other authority figure is doing it. Even if they are not forcing students to pray as well, it still creates an uncomfortable situation, especially for those belonging to a different religion (or none), and in a public school that is not appropriate. Private religious schools and homeschooling are an option if that is not acceptable.
I also have to disagree where you talked about how the ACLU had done this thing against prayer but that they do nothing about "gangs, cursing, and protects the civil rights of hoodlums". Are you aware that they are specifically an organization to protect civil liberites, and not to correct everything in society? Gangs are illegal, are certainly not endorsed by the ACLU, and are the responsibility of police and school officials. The ACLU cannot arrest gang members. Cursing is protected as free speech generally, though you can certainly get yourself in trouble for it in a public school too depending on the situation. And I wonder why "hoodlums" should not have their rights protected? Or why they are the alternative to praying people? Not everyone who is opposed to prayer in public schools is a "hoodlum". If these "hoodlums" are in fact doing something wrong they will get in trouble with their school or with the police. Until then, their civil liberties deserve just as much protection as yours.