Europeans Torture Iraqis

i dunno. i have never heard of your source and don't know how credible it is.
haven't heard the news story on the sources that i check either.

I think its naive to assume that each and every European country is the same. While Germany is indicting Rumsfeld, the Dutch are doing the same thing he was indicted for.
In other words, big deal.

Please-why is it that George Bush and Rumsfield is accused of all the bad in the world? Are we as a people so naive, as to think that one or two people have the ability to control the acts of thousands, even millions of people? I doubt seriously that George and Rummy have that amount of pull.

It is time people woke up, and put the blame where it belongs. If you go outside your home, and there is a poisonus snake there, and you capture it, or kill it, then tomorrow 2 more snakes are there, did you cause them to show up?

If we build a new road, and there is one accident today, and after the road is fixed to take care of that problem, there are 2 drunkin driving accidents tomorrow, is it the fault that the road was fixed?

We need to see the main issue-Terrorism, and people who just want to kill people. America is a noble country, and the world's leader in saving the defenseless, so why would anyone say that it was a mistake to go into Iraq, maybe the reason was incorrect, but heck people, Do you give a gun to a murderer? Do you give a car to a person who has a blood alcohol of 1.8? So why would you give these terrorist freedoms to kill and take and murder innocent people?

Let us be real, and stop the foolish political rhetoric.

I've never tortured anyone but am willing to try it on democrats...is there an organization where I can sign up?

Randy D. as far as my statement of
"It seems GWB and Rummy managed to somehow corrupt even the Dutch! ",
It is called sarcasm, look it up.

troublemkr s. a simple google search should turn up some other refernces as well.

More finger pointing & taurum fecum....!

Please-why is it that George Bush and Rumsfield is accused of all the bad in the world?
- They aren't, and they aren't being accused of it. They started the war in Iraq, which is a cause of lot of the bad in the world today.

Are we as a people so naive, as to think that one or two people have the ability to control the acts of thousands, even millions of people? I doubt seriously that George and Rummy have that amount of pull.
- Are we so naive to assume that they can't? History is, by definition one or two people controlling millions. Your fervent belief in Rumsfeld and Bush's infallibility is in fact an example of this, because there are millions more like you.

It is time people woke up, and put the blame where it belongs.
- On Islamic Jihadists. I don't think many people would argue this point, however, some people do not believe nation and/or democracy building is the panacea to their threat, as it's sold. Also, there are people who believe that present business interests often override long-sighted foreign policy shortfalls. The middle east has been a colonial disaster for sixty years. George Bush didn't cause it, but he is propagating the same flawed mentality that landed us here in the first place.

If you go outside your home, and there is a poisonus snake there, and you capture it, or kill it, then tomorrow 2 more snakes are there, did you cause them to show up?
- No. Unless of course, snakes could talk, had familial relations, and the other two poisonous snakes were kin to the one you killed. Which is of course what is happening now in Iraq, except they are people.

If we build a new road, and there is one accident today, and after the road is fixed to take care of that problem, there are 2 drunkin driving accidents tomorrow, is it the fault that the road was fixed?
- I am not really sure what you are going for here, except to say that roads should be fixed despite the morons that drive on them. I guess you have a point, but I don't see how it's America's job to fix the roads in Iraq, saving that we are there already, and we screwed them up in the first place.

We need to see the main issue-Terrorism, and people who just want to kill people.
- You are correct. Terrorism has actually been ubiquitous throughout human history. We will never root the noun 'terrorist' out of our language. However, we should go after the particular terrorists that attacked us on 9/11. Which we did, before the economically-driven war in Iraq.

America is a noble country, and the world's leader in saving the defenseless, so why would anyone say that it was a mistake to go into Iraq, maybe the reason was incorrect, but heck people, Do you give a gun to a murderer?
- America's people are a noble people. We are, probably, the world's leader in saving the defenseless, have been since 1946. We have, however, also not saved the defenseless, and hurt innocents in the way of our greater interests (geostrategically and economically). One only need look at the Iraqi citizenry today, or read of our involvement in Iran in the 1950s and 60s, Afghanistan in the late 1970s, Nicaragua in the 1980s, Iraq throughout the 1990s to see examples of when our defending innocents has gone by the wayside. We gave the gun to Saddam (Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan) to defend Saudi Arabia from Iran.

Do you give a car to a person who has a blood alcohol of 1.8? So why would you give these terrorist freedoms to kill and take and murder innocent people?
- No. And we don't give the terrorist freedoms to kill and take and murder innocent people. It is not a right given or protected in a world or our own constitution. They take this right, and they should be opposed. The problem is that the war in Iraq had very little to do with terrorism per se, and much more to do with our economical and geopolitical interests.

Let us be real, and stop the foolish political rhetoric.
- Indeed sir. And analogies regarding poisonous snakes and giving guns to murderers wouldn't at all classify itself as foolish political rhetoric.

They wont get it. They do not want to. Some how it is in thier best interest to protect torturers. Our country has said it is acceptable! The German people can claim that they did not know what was happening to the Jews.. WE CANNOT! I am not sure what is so lacking inside of people that allows them to look at other people as less than people. That somehow it is a joke that people are being tortured.

"Prisoners were forced to wear darkened goggles, which were at times removed as bright lights were shone in their eyes, De Volkskrant reported. They also were kept awake for extended periods by being soaked with water and exposed to high-pitched sounds." As opposed to having their heads chopped off on video, The bastards!


I guess it is OK because it is happening to people who happen to be the same race/nationality as someone who did something evil. That is how the terrorists think! You are doing the same thing.

"The German people can claim that they did not know what was happening to the Jews.. WE CANNOT! "

Genocide...persuasive interrogation...yeah I see similarities...great argument

iT IS A SHAME THAT PEOPLE PREFER LOVING THE TERRORIST, AND MURDERERS, over the innocent people that these terrorist have killed all over the world.

Because America allows a record, unlike Hitler did, and Russia, and China still, we are accused of killing so many. Did anyone ever think that if, any records of all the terrorist killings, all of saddams murders and orders of killings, all of irans murders, etc. etc. etc.were added up, i believe we would find there are quite a few less dead due to us helping the defenseless. To sit and type on a computer how terrible the U.S. is, is just plain immoral, unethical, and an embarassment to America, as well as the World in my opinion.


To try and defend why you would accuse our country, or our president, or military of even coming within a 1000 miles of the same attrocities, is a shame, and has no moral standing.

People accuse me of defending the president and rumsfield because they are murderers, and that i am as blind as the germans were, is attacking me, because there is no defense for the shameful foolish defense of the position to feel bad for terrorist.

Christine states:
"I guess it is OK because it is happening to people who happen to be the same race/nationality as someone who did something evil."

Christine, how does the "race card" fit into any of this. I think it has been demonstrated that the "terrorists" are from various countries and nationalities from around the world. The only thing they seem to have in common as far as I can tell is their ignorance of Islam and their desire to murder innocents to gain their goal, Islamic domination of as much of the world as possible.

But Joe, was invading and nation-building in Iraq in any way related to stopping these""terrorists"" that "are from various countries and nationalities from around the world"
In fact Joe,
"The only thing they seem to have in common as far as I can tell is their ignorance of Islam and their desire to murder innocents to gain their goal, Islamic domination of as much of the world as possible".
If this is the case, and Saudi Arabia, which 19 of the terrorists from 9/11 were raised, is as completely untouched and protected by this administration as it was in administrations past, it becomes quite clear that this war has nothing to do with terrorism.

Now we have to clean up our easily anticipated mess for the umpteeninth in that god-forsaken place. We look weaker to the rest of the world, because our politicians that either didn't vote (notice I don't say voted against) or voted for the invasion, refuse to actually provide our soldiers with the equipment that the greatest country on earth could easily provide, or make the citizens of this country put their money where their mouths are and institute a draft. When I see the CEO of Haliburton making 30million dollars as salary, for basically administrative contracting, and I see their truck drivers being paid 80K tax free, while our soldiers get paid 40K if they are lucky, and taxed to the nines, I know what this war is really about: what 90% of all wars are fought over.

The Dutch have their own axe to grind because of the murder of Van Gogh. And they have also outlawed burkas. (The first country to do so completely.) They don't need us in order to show their anger.

Apparently the US is setting a bad example. Alternatively, the US is no better than anyone else. So much for the "city on the hill."

The US is not drilling holes into our captives heads, or cutting them off with butchers knives for that matter. There is a HUGE difference between torture and 'persuasive' interrogation...Many of you are unable or just unwilling to see the difference

Please enlighten us on this glaring distinction between torture and persuasive interrogation.

I am all ears.

Charles B. In a word, Yes. It is well documented that Hussein was funding/supporting terror in the larger middle east, had some connections with Al Qaeda, violated the UN cease fire, fired on US aircraft, the list goes on if you are interested but I don't think you are. The resolution to go into Iraq cited 28 violations of which wmd was one.

Actually there were only 19 highjackers in total, I believe 15 of them were Saudi. But they did not act in the name of Saudi Arabia; they acted in the name of Al Qaeda so why would we attack S.A.? And exactly how is S.A. protected by this administration and past administrations? Protected?

I'm not sure what the difference is when you state "politicians that either didn't vote (notice I don't say voted against) or voted for the invasion" What is the difference of the distinction "didn't vote (notice I don't say voted against)".
And as far as the statement "refuse to actually provide our soldiers with the equipment that the greatest country on earth could easily provide, or make the citizens of this country put their money where their mouths are and institute a draft." Which politicians "refuse" to give our military what they need? As far as the draft issue, we have an all volunteer military; you can pony up anytime as well as anybody else for that matter. charlie rangel is talking about bringing back the draft again. He brought legislation to bring back the draft last year but when it came up for a vote he voted against it. Sounds like he is still trying to scare the people with it, playing the race and class cards this time. I'm sure after he blabs about how much we need it he'll vote against it again. The rest just sounds like economic mumbo jumbo. No offense but it just sounds like the usual Halliburton, economic redistribution stuff.

Loud music, blindfolding, disorienting prisoners is not torture...

Drilling holes in peoples head, cutting off fingers, chopping off their heads you know all the 'fun' stuff the terrorist in Iraq like to utilize....

I would say you are all ears, but since you normally fail to respond once you have been refuted I will not hold my breath for a response