Careful what you ask for...and so I have learned the hard way. For years I have talked about farmworkers, their circumstances, their quality of life, the need for reform to eliminate the fear caused by their legal status.
Unfortunately I received what I asked for - just not in the way I would have liked. Awareness came in the form of rabid Republican cries for immediate justice - an inarguable by-product of elections. Rather than viewing films of workers in the field working for pennies, I witnessed Lou Dobbs commentaries which effectively rounded all illegal immigrants up into one package and declared them "terrorists, invaders, aliens."
I watched in horror as the topic became hot news, shaking my head in awe at the level of ignorance of some of the more outspoken opponents - mainly politicians and other elected officials. I watched dumbfounded as they jumped on the bandwagon, wagging fingers and passing legislation at every level of government.
Numbly, I withheld comment and stood, scratching my head. Is it possible the people of this nation knew so little about those they attacked? I learned quickly that it was absolutely true. Some were just frustrated and frightened by the demonstrations. Some were outraged and terrified into action, their thoughts more and more in tune with true hatred - the kind of hatred that results in death.
A greater majority were silent and began searching. More and more, they asked questions, diversity trainings were requested - the college educated leaders of city and state could be seen thinking through an issue they had barely noticed - until now.
So, how serious is illegal immigration? Where does it fit in to our daily concerns? Well, according to almost all the polls, it is important - but not as important as the war.
What information do we lack as we try to comprehend the changing face of our nation? What are the foundations of illegal immigration?
It's simple, really - as a Gather friend pointed out. Supply and demand are at the crux of the influx, which by the numbers is stil modest compared to 100 years ago. Is it possible that we need these people?
It is not only possible. It is a fact. Demographically, we have not kept pace. We made choices - some cultural, some dictated by business, other choices were educational. 50% of us dropped out of high school to take entry level positions and work our way to the top. Now, 10% of us do. So much for entry level labor.
One has only to look at the job outlook for some sectors to realize the labor trends are there and will continue. Restaurants are the single largest employer of entry level labor. Their employee needs are expected to grow by 15% by the year 2015. The native work force will only grow by 10% in that time period and those in the 16-24 year old category - those most likely to be employed in this arena - will not grow at all.
And that is but one example. There are thousands of others, including construction - both skilled and unskilled.
Paying more money will not account for the fact that we simply do not have enough uneducated workers to perform the labor that continues to be the backbone of this nation. Keeping prices low - preventing inflation, is paramount to those lower-middle class workers. The ones who have some training and earn a decent wage while qualifying for tax breaks, are beyond a doubt, the population most at risk when we choose to deny the obvious and deport critical workers - particularly in the food chain. After that, there is that dream of owning a home someday - a dream that will be decidedly out of reach if contractors are forced to pay more for labor.
Clothing is another issue. While many are comfortably capable of clothing their children, some of us still rely on Goodwill and yard sales for "deals." Raising the cost of goods critical to the lower middle class may assuage the belief that we have met ouir obligation to enforce a law that was never previously enforced but it will cause those precariously near the poverty level to tumble.
None of us want to see "sweat shops," and if they are found, they should be shut down. Many of us realize that whatever clothing manufacturing remains in our country has significant competition from Korea, China and other countries. However, by increasing labor costs related to retail, corporations will simply pass those costs on to us.
Persecution of people who were never given an opportunity to do it right, who live in fear of deportation, who create new "businesses" for anyone legal willing to drive them or purchase their groceries, who would rather die than go to the hospital, who feel as if they meet anger on every corner, who want nothing more to meet us on the street and smile, do not deserve the current political climate.
The Republicans gambled on 25% of the U.S. citizen population. This 25% want to "cleanse" our nation of its brown impurity. A majority of this 25% want to rid our nation of this "filth," no matter the consequences. This population is mostly male, white, and uneducated.
My belief is what is currently revealed by the latest polls. U.S. citizens want resolution. They want those who have been here for a number of years and worked and paid taxes offered a path to legalization. They see the need not to reward illegal activity but at the same time concede that this situation is the result of two wrongs.
Passivity and apathy are not part of the solution. We are truly at risk of being overrun - but not by illegal immigrants. We are at risk because we have legislation that cannot be enforced, we have a minority who is working in a dedicated fashion at every level of government and within our general population to spread ideals that are in complete opposition to the majority.
This is an important year for us as a nation. Let's keep our eye on the ball.
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Comments: 90
• I don't believe that Lou Dobb's reporting is politically and racially motivated
• What we are seeing is capitalism at work without conscience. The corporations are not only looking for cheap labor here in this country but are also exporting important computer software engineering jobs to India and East European countries. The politicians give lip service about education in this country
• People that over stayed their visa or were smuggled into this country have not sworn allegiance to this country and are not in tune with the ideas of American nationalism and patriotism (I would never wave any other countries flags in America). It ridicules and belittles the personal sacrifices made by millions to follow the legal route to the country
• Legalizing all these people will amount to a mockery of law and order in the U.S
• It would encourage rather than discourage future wave of undocumented / Illegal immigration
• Why does Nike sneakers still cost > $100 when it is made for next to nothing in China ? It is uncontrolled greed. When people quit buying these things the corporations will be forced to cut prices.
I think all the people here illegally should declare themselves and be given 2-way visas to be able to return to their countries to see their families without persecution. Return legally and start living as legal workers. The corporations should be penalized with stiff fines and jail time for second offense for hiring undocumented workers.
Rights and responsibilities is a two-way street.
But, you ARE being heard. More and more each passing day, I think. It seems to me that the political tide is stemming somewhat. The voices of hate aren't quite so loud. The anger seems to be burning it's self down to a more tolerable level. I hear more and more people asking questions, looking for answers, trying to gain some insight into what seems, on the surface, to be a simple issue, but in reality is so complex it can barely be grasped in pieces, let alone the whole.
Maybe fear won't rule the day after all. Maybe the true reasons for this plight will come forward and be addressed in a realistic manner. Maybe, just maybe, the numbers will get crunched in minds capable of understanding their analysis.
The fact is, there just aren't enough of us. No matter how you rearrange and tally it, we're retiring in droves, we're not having enough children to replace ourselves, and we're far too educated, with far higher expectations than a back breaking life bent over chemical laden crops for 14 hours a day will meet.
It's a simple fact.
The only question that should really remain is, HOW do we fix this broken system, making it equitable for all concerned, not IF.
That is exactly where we are all fooling ourselves. There are NOT enough Americans to do these jobs. It seems people don't even realize the extent of the issue. Not to mention, those Americans, if they existed, would expect higher wages. Construction, Agriculture, Meat processing, these are but a few areas that if Americans took over, your trip to the grocery store, your mortgage, will rise drastically due to artificially low prices now because illegals take lower wages than Americans. If you want to solve illegal immigration, then we have enough laws on the books now, if enforced, but they are not enforced, because we can't and won't pay the price. Legal paths to citizen ships are the only realistic plan. God, I'm agreeing with Bush on something! I need to reevaluate this, it must be wrong! No, Bush got lucky on one issue, I think. It was bound to happen, wasn't it?
I agree with you in principle but I believe that something needs to be done. The middle class is shrinking and these low paying jobs have something to do with it.
There are so many factors in this! It's far too simple to just blame a bunch of indeterminate brown faces for it all when much of it has nothing to do with them.
Does it play a part? There's no doubt about that either. But I think that part is fractional when the overall picture is placed into perspective.
congress has done little work on those issues, let alone the other issues that are staring us right in the face. neither has the administration.
I can recall when white people thought that no one black was qualified, regardless of education or training to do "their" jobs. Affirmative action is often "blamed" for blacks getting jobs in society that were once seen as jobs for whites only, and yet many of us (people) know that Affirmative Action may get you in, but it won't keep you there. And I can also recall when women were seen as less productive and not wanted in the work force, because we weren't seen as capable of doing the same work as men, and even now the "glass ceiling" still exhist, but now it has layers that never existed in the past.
If an illegal alien is working, and a law abiding citizens, then maybe we need to encourage them to go for citizenship, and if they aren't a productive member of society and are adding to our rising crime rate and other problems, then send them home, and maybe we should send some of the American citizens (black, white, etc..) who aren't productive and contributing to society in a good and useful way with them.
And of those 13.8 million, how many have applied for any job working far below the minimum wage? Or one that is as hard as these jobs? I'd estimate, oh, about zero! C'mon. One day in the fields bent over pulling weeds or picking strawberries would have most Americans crying, and probably so sore they'd need a week to recover. I hate weeding my garden, let alone an endless one. Would you do it? I doubt it. Then take into account they have to pull up stakes and travel with the harvest, live in squalid temporary housing, etc. and no running water. I doubt this is even an argument.
say industries now suffering from a skills shortage include
energy and health care. The National Association of
Manufacturers says the talent crunch soon will be felt
in technical and scientific fields. While some wouldn't
see this as a bad thing, half of the federal civilian workforce
will be eligible to retire within five years.
The U.S. workforce grew at a rate of 30% in the
1970s, and at 12% in the 1990s through the present.
But it's expected to slow to about 3% and to level off by 2010.
By 2010, the number of workers aged 35 to 44--or those
typically moving into upper management--will decline by
19%; the number of workers aged 45 to 54 will increase
21%; and the number of workers aged 55 to 64 will
increase 52%.
The gray-haired demographics aren't limited to
the U.S., either. The number of workers aged 35
to 44 is expected to decline by 27% in Germany,
19% in the U.K. and 9% in Italy. In Japan, that age
group is expected to shrink by 10%, and by 8% in China.
http://www.forbes.com/careers/2005/09/28
/career-babyboomer-work-cx_sr_0929bizbasics.
html?partner=yahootix
>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.ailf.org/ipc/economicsofnecessity.asp
These trends have important implications for the less-skilled workforce in particular when the educational differences between immigrants and natives are factored into the equation. Although roughly equal proportions of immigrants and natives have at least a bachelor's degree, immigrants are far more likely than natives to have less than or no more than a high school education. The Census Bureau estimates that, in 2003, 27.3 percent of the foreign-born and 27.2 percent of natives age 25 and over had a bachelor's degree or more. However, 21.5 percent of the foreign-born had less than a 9th grade education (compared to 4.1 percent of natives) and 67.2 percent had completed high school (compared to 87.5 percent of natives). NOTE 16 Commenting on the economic consequences of these educational disparities, the President's report observes that "as education levels rise among younger U.S. workers and older U.S. workers retire, the number of low-skilled natives is declining." NOTE 17 In other words, there are relatively few native-born workers willing and able to fill the growing number of low-skill, low-wage jobs in the service sector of the economy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Endnotes
1 Economic Report of the President, Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, February 2005, p. 93.
2 U.S. Census Bureau, News Release: "Foreign-Born Population Tops 34 Million, Census Bureau Estimates," February 22, 2005 – Table 1.1 Population by Sex, Age, and U.S. Citizenship Status: 2004.
3 Jeffrey S. Passel, Estimates of the Size and Characteristics of the Undocumented Population. Washington, DC: Pew Hispanic Center, March 21, 2005.
4 "Foreign-Born Population Tops 34 Million, Census Bureau Estimates" – Table 3.1 Foreign-Born Population by Sex, Age, and World Region of Birth: 2004.
5 "Foreign-Born Population Tops 34 Million, Census Bureau Estimates – Table 5.1 Population by Sex, Age, and Generation: 2004.
6 Campbell J. Gibson & Emily Lennon, Historical Census Statistics on the Foreign-born Population of the United States: 1850-1990 (Population Division Working Paper No. 29). Washington, DC: U.S. Census Bureau, February 1999.
7 Economic Report of the President, p. 93.
8 Andrew Sum, et al., Foreign Immigration and the Labor Force of the U.S.: The Contributions of New Foreign Immigration to the Growth of the Nation's Labor Force and Its Employed Population, 2000 to 2004. Boston, MA: Center for Labor Market Studies, Northeastern University, July 2004.
9 Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Department of Labor, News Release: "Labor Force Characteristics of Foreign-Born Workers in 2003," December 1, 2004 – Table 4. Employed foreign-born and native-born persons 16 years and over by occupation and sex, 2003 annual averages.
10 National Science Board, Science and Engineering Indicators 2004. Arlington, VA: National Science Foundation, 2004.
11 Economic Report of the President, p. 94-95.
12 Population Division, Department of Economic and Social Affairs, United Nations, World Population Prospects: The 2004 Revision, Highlights, February 24, 2005, p. 71.
13 Michael W. Horrigan, "Employment projections to 2012: concepts and context," Monthly Labor Review 127(2): 12, February 2004.
14 Mitra Toossi, "Labor force projections to 2012: the graying of the U.S. workforce," Monthly Labor Review 127(2): 48, February 2004.
15 Daniel E. Hecker, "Occupational employment projections to 2012," Monthly Labor Review 127(2): 81, February 2004.
16 Luke J. Larsen, The Foreign-Born Population in the United States: 2003, Current Population Reports, P20-551. Washington, DC: U.S. Census Bureau, August 2004.
17 Economic Report of the President, p. 94.
18 Economic Report of the President, p. 105.
19 Economic Report of the President, p. 93.
20 James P. Smith & Barry Edmonston, Editors, The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration. Washington, DC: National Research Council, National Academy of Sciences Press, 1997, p. 349.
21 The New Americans, p. 351.
22 The New Americans, p. 220.
23 Economic Report of the President, p. 108.
24 Stuart Anderson, The Contribution of Legal Immigration to the Social Security System. Arlington, VA: National Foundation for American Policy, February 2005 (revised March 2005).
25 Economic Report of the President, p. 107-108.
26 Economic Report of the President, p. 93.
27 Economic Report of the President, p. 106-107.
28 The New Americans, p. 347-48.
29 Estimates of the Size and Characteristics of the Undocumented Population.
30 Economic Report of the President, p. 110-14.
31 A total of 10,000 employment-based green cards are allotted for less-skilled workers, but half of these are reserved for beneficiaries of the 1997 Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act.
32 Economic Report of the President, p. 110-14.
33 Economic Report of the President, p. 116.
34 Estimates of the Size and Characteristics of the Undocumented Population.
35 President George W. Bush, "State of the Union Address," February 2, 2005.
Trying to unravel the thousand ways illegal immigration affects us takes a database and a master manipulator!
LOL...hint, hint
For years, the hard work of these people has been grossly exploited by wealthy business owners who who have made vast fortunes off their toil in the orange groves and packing plants. A good example is Florida GOP Rep Katherine Harris, heiress to a vast citrus and real estate fortune.
IF our government would put the business owners in jail WHO hire these people, the problem would disapear in 2 days! ......BUT, then a NEW PROBLEM would emerge.....$10 oranges! (Well not $10 but somewhat more expensive if you pay people a fair living wage).
Our administration does NOT really want this issue solved...the staus quo is working just fine for them , thank you very much.
Hey, I LOVE Bigfoot, BTW...LOL...grew up on legends of him/her!
After the 1986 Immigration reform law was passed and millions of illegal immigrants were made legal, they left the farms.
For the last two years, even with 12+ million illegal immigrants in the U.S., 3 to 4 million in California, California farmers could not find enough workers.
Yet, we do have a few growers in my county who have had the same farmhands for 10 even 20 years.
I think there must be a reason.
I have said before, what is the most disturbing about the illegal immigrant workers is that citizens in the U.S. now think it is a good and beneficial thing to have a servant class, that can be looked down on, treated as less than human, shamelessly. I think they should read some history. It is this kind of population that revolts. Is that why they were so outraged when the illegal immigrants flooded the streets with their flags?
Wait...was that a compliment or a challenge? ROF!
Thanx a million. I haven't had a chance to tell you, but your words meant the world to me at a time I needed to hear them desperately.
It's actually fundamentally correct for our nation to work this way...Right....Wrong....or Otherwise.
You are my hero.
And yes....I see it too.....It's awesome and could never have been accomplished without you, Debbie, d.m., Amy, Senobia, Dee, Christina and on and on and on!!!!
I was so distraught when I began posting. I just kept thinking, "There are more of me out there - there must be!"
And there is.
Thank you so much. Together we will ensure a humane approach to these issues. We will have a secure nation and we will protect the freedoms of all races.
We will do it.
Tobacco is the number one crop where I live now, and the most of the work is being done by immigrant workers. The tobacco farmers tell me that they would never get their crops harvested without the immigrant workers.
OK, the farmers in the Mississippi river region manage to farm thousands of acres without immigrant workers, but the farmers where I live now can't get their crops in without immigrant workers ? hmmm
You let her run you off way too easy.
Tobacco on the other hand requires some planting assistance beginning with the seedlings (if the farmer starts from seed), cultivating to "weed out" plants that are too close or that aren't doing well, de-flowering which is cutting the flower off each plant by hand, taking the bad leaves off, trimming from the ground up, and finally harvesting - all of which is hand done because it can't be done without thought - you MUST KNOW which plants need it and which don't.
That's why there is a difference.
Lonnie....sigh....the references are ultra-reputable, as I am certain you have noted.
I'm sorry you have such a difficult time sifting through the data.
Timothy......LOL....play nice. I haven't run Lonnie off anymore than I ran you off. Besides, "running off" someone is not my intention. We all have a right to our opinions. Lonnie's opinion counts, yours does and mine does as well.
Take Care
JB
But that machinery requires people to operate. Thousands of acres to farm requires a lot of machinery. It also requires working around the weather, such as on holidays or weekends.
I don't know if you have ever been to the Mississippi river region of western Kentucky, but I can tell you that those farms are MASSIVE.
Ask any farmer, Timothy - there is a world of difference between these crops in terms of manpower.
Yes, there are a lot of Amish and Mennonite owned farms in that area, but they are mostly small time farmers. I'm talking about BIG TIME farmers who farm thousands of acres. It's very common for those farmers to own anywhere from 10 to 20 tractors, not counting the combines, 2 ton trucks as well as semi trucks. Also factor in the manpower it takes to attach impliments to the tractors and combines/ cornpickers. It takes a LOT of workers to drive this machinery as well.
Yes, tobacco is more hands on labor intensive, but it takes a lot of people to operate the machinery that I listed above.
You need to go down to Columbus, Ky and travel from there to Hickman, Ky, and from Hickman, drive from there to Tiptonville, Tn. Then you will see what I'm talking about. I'm talking soybean farms that stretch out at least 5 miles in lenght.
A lot of those farmers are getting into the chicken farm buisness. This has escalated since Tyson opened a chicken plant in Union City, TN and the former Seaboard Farms chicken plant opened in Mayfield, Ky( the name of that plant has changed, not sure of the current name). Those farmers are managing those chicken farms without immigrant labor. Don't know how they are doing it, but they are.
They must have hired Americans to do the jobs that illegal immigrants won't do!
It doesn't! The crops you list are simply NOT labor intensive. There aren't many migrant workers who run the equipment. They work in the hand labor end.
That's WHY you don't see too many. Now - are you trying to tell me that you know where thousands of acres of tobacco are and no migrant workers? Excluding soy and corn? And chicken farms are not labor intensive but farmers seem to prefer the immigrant labor....call it a fad...who knows....
The turkey houses on the other hand and the hog farms ARE labor intensive.
You obviously didn't read my last post in it's entirity, which is typical female.
Nowhere in my last post did I say that the chicken farmers are using immigrant workers, and no where in my last post did I say that there are thousands of acres of tobacco and no immigrant workers.
Actually, I don't think that your arguments are pro-immigrant, or pro-illegal immigrant. I have come to the conclusion that your comments are styero-typical of the female point of view. You girls read a few words in a sentence and take them out of context.
Go back and read my last post, and then give me a common sense response to what I posted.
Jackie, once again, I can't put anything better than you do, but you're amazing and thank you for expressing views I can never put into words. People like you are wonderful lights in an otherwise dark day like today.
Sigh....I'm too tired tonight and I'm worried sick about N. Korea causing the next world war.....
Your latest comment will take a level head....No one has ever played the "female" card on me before....
Just wait til I'm rested....I'm going to make you think fondly of Pikeville....
Timothy V. I grew up in Indiana. Talk about FARM COUNTRY! Mostly corn and beans tho, along with some cows and some pigs. The labor intensive jobs, you are correct, in those cases, does lie with operation of the heavy duty machinery involved. However, there are skill level difference and pay differences that may help explain the lack of migrant workers in your area. It may not explain them in totality, but it does factor.
In Indiana, we have seen migrant workers come and go for generations. They were hardly noticed until the news inflamed us all of late. Now there is an uproar there too. Seems kind of hypocritical to me when there aren't many more now than there were 10 years ago there.
Why do you ladies always portray illegal immigrants as "farm workers", "fruit pickers" or other "agricultural" labor"?
Ref: first paragraph.
H.G. when the topic under discussion is that particular segment of the illegal population, I try to stick to it. It's difficult to stay on topic in any of these discissions when the issues overlap in such intricate spaghetti bowls of chaos. So if I can contribute to dealing with each topic as it is addressed, I try very hard to do so.
I, personally, have other articles that address (and will address) other segments. I have also commented prolifically in other articles regarding other segments.
To say "always" is a misrepresentation of my thoughts on this complex issue. I will, however, admit that I still consider this particular segment to be the least advocated and largest, followed closely by the service segment and the construction segment. (Which, yes, I acknowledge is growing rapidly. Stupid Hurricanes!)
So, how serious is illegal immigration?
One has only to look at the job outlook for some sectors to realize the labor trends are there and will continue. Restaurants are the single largest employer of entry level labor.
Are these Ag jobs, or just jobs you want illegals to fill?
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And that is but one example. There are thousands of others, including construction both skilled and unskilled.
Are thes Ag jobs?
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we simply do not have enough uneducated workers to perform the labor that continues to be the backbone of this nation.
Uneducated workers? As in dumb people? I resent that statement because "the backbone of this nation has always been American middle class labor. NOT illegal immigrants! And to insinuate that is ludicrous! It's as if youlook down on those with no college. Did it ever occur to you that some people would rather work with their hands instead of in an office?
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Keeping prices low - preventing inflation, is paramount to those lower-middle class workers. The ones who have some training and earn a decent wage while qualifying for tax breaks, are beyond a doubt, the population most at risk when we choose to deny the obvious and deport critical workers - particularly in the food chain.
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. These are the ones most likely to lose their jobs in favor of your precious illegals.
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After that, there is that dream of owning a home someday - a dream that will be decidedly out of reach if contractors are forced to pay more for labor.
I hate to break the news to you Jackie, but housing costs are NOT being kept down by illegals! The cost of a house here has more than TRIPLED in the last 20 years, with fewer and fewer American people able to afford them without some sort of funny financing that is going to eventually bite them in the ass. Sure the contractor is keeping his costs down, but he certainly is NOT passing the savings down to the consumer?
So, please let me ask you again - Why do you ladies always portray illegal immigrants as "farm workers", "fruit pickers" or other "agricultural" labor"?
"I have not idea how many have applied. I'm also pretty sure you don't either. You think its a bad thing that American workers will not work for less than the federal minimum wage? That's an odd position. Well I have 3 acres under cultivation every year. My wife and I plow, plant, weed and harvest it ourselves. We also both have full time jobs."
Been gone, still try to answer any posts, so......
No I don't but a logical estimate from having been a supervisor in a few similar situations tells me none, or very, VERY few. No I don't think that's a good thing, I also think the minimum wage should get a big raise to make up for it's static position for the last several years, no one could live on it, but that's the kind of jobs we were talking about, so quoting those figures really meant nothing, is what I was trying to say. You and your wife sound to me to be the exception, rather than the rule, but that's pretty good, and I commend you. I have three acres, and hate mowing the part that isn't in garden, let alone the garden work, but I love the fresh veggies, and the mulch for the garden.
" [ rolling eyes at your sexist comment ] "
Me [ laughing my butt off at your comment }
You still haven't commented on my post last night . I thought that you were going to make me " think fondly of Pikeville " ?
So you can JUST WAIT.....[sticking out tongue and showing Timothy her middle finger]
You ain't keepin' me a waitin' . You just won't admit that you were wrong .
Perhaps you should put that middle finger somewhere and keep it warm.
O.K., maybe this is an easier one: Out of the 12 - 20 mil. illegals here, how many are actually migrant farm workers?
The weather has turned cold here in Kentucky. Perhaps Jackie is keeping her middle finger warm ( don't know for sure that she lives in Kentucky, but I suspect so )
Nah! She lives in California!
So how does she know so much about tobacco farming in Kentucky ? or does he ?
Sorry. Or does SHE ?
How many threads have ended with you and I being the last two that posted ?
She says she's from WV...I just think she reads alot!
We should start a band called the "Thread Killers"!
" Thread Killers " That's just way to cool !
Just wondering, what kind of guitar do you play ?
But then, that leaves me open to repay the favor - doesn't it? LOL
Jackie...
"O.K., maybe this is an easier one: Out of the 12 - 20 mil. illegals here, how many are actually migrant farm workers?"
2 million for the planting, harvesting, packaging
More if you include animals and processing.
Total: closer to 5 million of the 12 million work in some type of work directly related to our food supply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Timothy said: You need to go down to Columbus, Ky and travel from there to Hickman, Ky, and from Hickman, drive from there to Tiptonville, Tn. Then you will see what I'm talking about. I'm talking soybean farms that stretch out at least 5 miles in lenght.
"A lot of those farmers are getting into the chicken farm buisness. This has escalated since Tyson opened a chicken plant in Union City, TN and the former Seaboard Farms chicken plant opened in Mayfield, Ky( the name of that plant has changed, not sure of the current name). Those farmers are managing those chicken farms without immigrant labor. Don't know how they are doing it, but they are. "
I stated the chicken farms are labor intensive and therefore migrants or immigrants are typically utilized because there isn't enough of us who want to do this type of labor. IF, in your area, the citizens are working - there is no reason or openings for illegal labor. HOWEVER, remember this: MANY areas have excellent job opportunities and chicken farms are a decidedly last resort. It's kind a like my home town - there are four convenience stores, two family owned pawn shops, four restaurants - 2 family owned and 2 fast food - two grocery stores and three pharmacies. There is a health clinic, a small hospital and one middle and one high school.
If a food processing plant was located in West Virginia, would people work there?
I don't know - maybe the women would - it would definitely be an experiment. Because wages are depressed, chances are the companies could employ them for the same amount they currently pay an illegal.
And Timothy: As far as soy beans and corn. You made the mistake of assuming these crops are labor intensive then try to wiggle your mistaken ass out of it. Again, don't assume so much and if you do create a smoke screen, I'm willing to go with it - but there is need to end in insults and innuendo.
Take it like a man, if you are one. I mean, is the testosterone at such a high that a simple, "I stand corrected," is impossible?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
H.G.
You are simply too full of shit to respond to. The article is obviously about farm workers and moves on to make a few statements about the whole. The first paragraph is the topic. Articles often begin that way. If you have time to kill being anal, then by all means, carry on. The transparancy of your methods is clear and really doesn't merit the time it would take to respond.
Readers are not stupid - stop treating them as if they are.
I have a question for you both:
Why battle so hard? What do you find so incorrect or insulting? Don't get me wrong, I am flattered that you would go to such lengths, I'm just a little curious as to why you would think there are enough citizens to work in the fields....Where do you think we're going to cough up 12 million or more to replace those now working?
Pssst: There aren't that many standing in line for ANY job - unless they're immigrants.
I have several: a Strat, a Les Paul, a Gibson G3, a HAMER "Slammer", and a Fender Bass.
O.K., you said...."2 million for the planting, harvesting, packaging".
Now let's say we let you keep your 2 Mil. so they can do the planting, harvesting, packaging etc., "jobs that Americans won't do". That still leaves 10 Mil. here in the U.S., with another 3 to 4 thousand "uneducated people" crossing our border daily. Now, I can understand why you "battle" so hard for the people you have come to know in your job with AG workers. But why are you so adamant in having the rest come/stay while only corporations/employers are benefiting? Illegals don't benefit because they are just being exploited, and American workers don't benefit because they are losing wages. And why, with the current 75% dropout rate in the Hispanic community alone, would you think America is running out of workers?
"Why? Did I go off topic?"
Nah....I was just talking in general....no offense!
"Where do you think we're going to cough up 12 million or more to replace those now working?"
Well, we could start with the millions of convicts that are in our prisons, and then we could use other law violators (not illegals), to do other jobs as their punishment. Of course some would then cry that it was cruel and unusual punishment.
Yeah, that would make more room for the illegals commiting crimes in the U.S.
See: immigrationshumancost.org
"Where are we going to cough up 12 million or more to replace those who are now working ? "
H.G. answered that to an extent, however here is another idea. Just in case there aren't law abiding citizens standing in line to take those jobs, how about making the low life scum who are sitting on their lazy butts and drawing welfare get out there and work for a living !
I'm not trying to wiggle my ass out of anything. Soybeans and corn are " labor intensive " . I've stated how that they are labor intensive several times, and you are the one who is trying to wiggle your ass out of that debate.
You still haven't answered one of my last posts where I replied to your incorrect post, in that post you said that I said that there were thousands of acres of tobacco and no immigrant workers, which I didn't. You also claimed that I stated that the chicken farmers were using immigrant workers, which I didn't.
You are the one who is creating a smokescreen to cover your own ass.
If any of you can read anywhere in my posts on this thread where I wrote that there are thousands of acres of tobacco with no immigrant workers, or where I wrote that the chicken farmers are using immigrant labor, then please point out to me. It's obvious that Jackie can't.
So we should just deport illegal immigrant criminals without them facing justice ?
If we as Americans are tired of supporting criminals who are in prison, maybe we should do the following.
1 : Release from prison those who are doing time for petty crimes and put them to work on the farms . They could replace the illegals who have been deported.
2 : Do away with " Death Row " If someone has been sentenced to death, then execute them the very next day after they are sentenced.
I'm sure that you'll find something wrong with this as well, so go ahead and throw your punches.
BTW, You tend to talk out of both sides of your mouth.
You're right, the service industry never has paid diddly. But what I was referring to was manufacturing i.e. GM, Ford etc., the steel industry, and construction etc. When I was 18 just out of high school, I went to work for Samsonite. I was making about 500 a week back then when the average person was only making about 150 -200 a week. By the time I turned 20, I bought my first home and drove a Cadillac. These days, young people don't have the same opportunity because most factories have either closed or moved to Mexico (Samsonite, Gates Rubber Co etc.) The steel mills have closed here in Pueblo due to the U.S. buying steel from Japan. I knew lots of people who worked these types of jobs for as many as fifty years, and raised their families quite comfortably. These people were not as uneducated as some might think. They just prefered to work with their hands or didn't want any part of "office" politics. As I said before, not all people want to go to college and those that are forced to go, just go to party.
They aren't even charging, much less deporting illegal immigrant criminals! The DA in Denver is running for Governor. During his time as DA, he has let illegal criminals go more than 150 times. One example is an illegal alien caught with over 2 kilos of HEROIN! The DA did a plea bargain and only charged the illegal with (now sit down when you read this) TRESPASSING ON AGRICULTURAL LAND!!!!! There is no agricultural land in Denver!! Another was caught with 2000 gms of Methamphetamine, the charge? AGRICULTURAL TRESPASS!!
If it were Americans doing these crimes, it would be a mandatory 25 years in lockup!
SEE: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4421679
A large percentage of those who arrive to us have a 6th grade or less education - period. We citizens once dropped out of school at a much higher rate - choosing blue collar over white. There has been a huge societal movement in our culture to educate our children, which resulted in less citizens willing to perform menial labor. Just as black people were once migrant laborers in the fields (some still are).
HOWEVER: There is another kind of illegal immigrant alive and well here in the U.S. The majority I know personally are from Mexico and Honduras. Honduras has a structured private educational system. Families who can afford it - send their children to these schools. They are taught English from an early age and their level of education - especially in math - actually exceeds the requirements here in the U.S. I know certified accountants working as secretaries, registered nurses working as nursing assistants BUT I also know certified electricians working as electricians and engineers working as engineers. Most of the ones I speak of are from Honduras and hold the TPS.
From Mexico, I know teachers who work cleaning hotel rooms and who work in construction. I know engineers who work construction. I know computer technicians who work for small businesses - all illegal immigrants.
I also know several women who are single, illegal immigrant mothers. They make their living cooking and selling food on Saturdays to the large mobile home parks, some babysit and others clean houses. I know one who talked to a citizen owned country store owner and was permitted to cook at the store for the large number of immigrants coming in for lunch (out of the fields and from pipe construction). She brought the ingredients, she was given free use of the grill and the owner took a cut from what she sold. She made excellent money doing this.
So, Debbie: Just so you know, uneducated does not mean dumb - it means uneducated. Where there is a will - there is a way....as immigrants continuously prove to us.
If we hadn't educated ourselves out of necessary labor - there would be no need for them.
As for prison labor.....take into all that can go wrong with transporting and policing 50 convicts in a tobacco field OR better yet, put a machete or a large, sharp tool in their hand....
Timothy: Why does Debbie talk out both sides of her mouth? Because she doesn't agree with an over-simplified comment of mine? That's absurd. Several statements were made in the article above and the whole point is to pick it apart - you did, why can't she?
"As for prison labor.....take into all that can go wrong with transporting and policing 50 convicts in a tobacco field OR better yet, put a machete or a large, sharp tool in their hand...."
They did it in the south for many years with the chain gangs. Aside from the corruption in law and politics in that region, the idea of prison workers worked out pretty well. They built roads and railroads among many other things. They used tools like shovels, picks, and sledge hammers just to name a few. I see no problem with cons working in a field with a machete.....the guards would have assault rifles!
Great point ! I don't see Debbie or Jackie arguing your point as of yet, but I'm sure that the girls will try to pull a " rabbit out of their hat " !
You still haven't answered my question. Where in any of my posts on this thread did I state that chicken farmers in my area are using immigrant labor and that there are thousands of acres of tobacco with no immigrant workers ?
Since you are too prould to admit that you're wrong, I'll answer the question for you. The answer is " nowhere " .
You used the misrepresentation of my posts on another thread where you accused me of saying that I had seen illegal immigrants, which I never posted. I challenged you to prove that I wrote such a thing, and of course you never answered my question because you knew that I never posted such a comment.
The next time that you choose to accuse me of writing something that I didn't, you better be able to back it up. Oh, I'm sorry. You won't be able to back it up because I never wrote it in the first place.
You need to go down to Columbus, Ky and travel from there to Hickman, Ky, and from Hickman, drive from there to Tiptonville, Tn. Then you will see what I'm talking about. I'm talking soybean farms that stretch out at least 5 miles in lenght.
"A lot of those farmers are getting into the chicken farm buisness. This has escalated since Tyson opened a chicken plant in Union City, TN and the former Seaboard Farms chicken plant opened in Mayfield, Ky( the name of that plant has changed, not sure of the current name). Those farmers are managing those chicken farms without immigrant labor. Don't know how they are doing it, but they are. "
And chicken business means exactly what?
Chicken farms, learn to read English instead of copying and pasting my comments.
You still haven't answered my question. Where did I write that the chicken farms are using immigrant labor, and where did I write that there are thousands of acres of tobacco and no immigrant farmers ?
FOR ALL THOSE INTERESTED: Review the thread and decide for yourself.
Pettiness is NOT MY forte, Timothy and I'm sick splitting hairs.
The comments are posted - anyone who chooses can follow the thread.
I'm on to bigger things!
Seeya!
You are moving on to bigger things because you know that you lied, and I called you out on it. This is just another tactic of yours to try and wiggle out of a debate.