An Open Letter to Governor Palin

An unknown entering this arena needed to earn my respect. Instead, she has my absolute contempt. She is, in my opinion, an insult to women, to Americans, even to Republicans.

Must we stay in the stone age, where fear and superstition, rumor and ignorance were the way of the world? Time to grow up, people. We're going to need a grown-up administration.

Very well put, Sy. I'm glad that you have the words and thought process to say what needs to be said. Thanks!

It's going to be a long 4 weeks. I suppose we can take comfort from the fact that the dirt-diggers are having to go so far into the past to find anything even remotely scandalous to talk about.

Sy,

Have you sent a link to Barack? He still has a page here on Gather.

I don't think that she lied when she said what she said. He was palling around with the President of Iran and made no bones about it. Why one might ask would a fresh faced two year senator want to be buddy buddies with someone like that? And that along with many others lapses in judgment that he has made. What does one say of that?

The Barack on this site is not only not Barack but is an imposter. Anyone care to know who it is just ask me.

Good for Sarah, thought we had free speech and anyone can give an opinion in this Country including you. Well, here is my take, I can forgive an 8 year old boy, but when that boy grows up into an adult, and voluntay chooses to start his campaign in the living room of a known radical terrorist, then that was his choice. And millions of Americans are scared of his known associations, that have been discussed on gather, from people, who freely voice their opinion. In my opinion he does have a hidden agenda, and that alone scares me and I will vote for McCain/Palin along with others of Americans, who have earned the right to speak freely and vote for whoever they choose, whether or not they have your narrow views of free speech. The truth is that millions are in fear, and if the truth hurts you , so be it, as far as I know you can still exercise your right in the voting booth on Nov. 4th,

I think that a woman who keeps connections with a secessionist group has very little to say on this subject.

Nicely stated, Sy. Esther and Ray, you are as disgusting as Palin.

Ray
I am missing your point on free speech. I never said Palin doesnt have the right to say what she said. I think it was outrageous coming from a candidate fot VP, but I never implied that she has no right to say it. If you are that afraid of Obama, I am sorry for you. Our vision of this country is clearly different. I prefer not to be guided by fear, and I think even Senator McCain agrees with this. I think we are a more courageous people than you think. I am offended by Governor Palin's divisive remarks. That is the point of my post.

Esther, I believe, as Ray has stated, that the terrorist invoved is William Ayers, a member of the Weather underground in the 1960s. I do not think she meant the President of Iran, and I do not believe that Obama has met him.

Actually Sandy, I dont know Ray, but I do know Esther, and she is not disgusting. I dont think Ray is either. What I was trying to say in this post, is that we are all together as one people, even if we dont feel it sometimes. We can disagree, but should not attack each other. We have a real enemy. Lets save our hatred for them.

Nicely stated Sy. Bravo!

Well said, Sy. The word terrorist is bandied about way too freely these days to mean just about anything. It should not be politicized. Palin's conduct is inexcusable.

Thank you for sharing this letter Sy.

I second that thanks. Or third it. Or fourth it. I lost count.

Have you sent it to any newspapers? That's an excellent point about diluting the meaning of the word.

Hear, hear, Sy. Well said.

Good article, and well said. Thank you for posting this.

Sy,

If you ever need any additional signatures on that letter. Count me in.

Not to worry, though. She'll be back in Alaska about time for the Northern lights. She's going to need them! lol.

Very heartfelt letter, Sy.

good letter ...more restrained than i would be in composing a letter to someone of her ilk...

and those ignorant enough to swallow the McPain "fear" tactics based on lies are not worth a nano sec of my time....period...

Bravo ... Palin is a low-life B* that does not even know what the role of the VP is in our government. She is aggressive, and loutish, but can back none of it with facts or reasoning, just political BS of which we have enough in Washington and the country already. I wonder how popular she is going to be in Alaska in her next gubernatorial bid. She is really outstandingly bad.
Nicely put, Sy.

Great letter Sy. I find it amazing that the McCain/Palin campaign is using such derogatory remarks as this one and others as this campaign comes down to the end. I have watched a lot of elections and I can't remember one so nasty. Maybe I have blocked them out but I am truly appalled at the tone of voice, tone of remarks and actions that I can only call childish on the part of McCain/Palin. Between winking, smirking and remarks recalling schoolyard taunts it has to be the most immaturly run campaign.

Esther, you should stick to your sex talk if you cannot venture into a political discussion and stick to the facts. Obama is not palling around with terrorists. He gets daily briefings from the CIA who clear everyone they talk to. The idea that he is a terrorist, or has terrorist sympathies is a nasty name-calling lie that there is no basis to.

Neither of Obama's controversial "connections" are terrorists. We think of terrorist and we think of people who murder people. First of all Ayers was never convicted of a crime. Second of all the weathermen to which he was connected were protesting Viet Nam in another time of outrageous activities by the Executive branch. The weathermen did not try to kill people. They phoned in bomb threats in order that people be evacuated.

Ayers is not a terrorist now, he is a well-respected supporter of human rights and has done much for the city he lives in, and it is expected that at some time Obama would have to work with him.

The American left in the 70's, as they say when Obama was 8 years old, was a history in itself, and it is gone, hopefully to be replaced with a more peaceful more effective left.

When you look at this country from the point of view of a black man, and in this case I'm speaking of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, I can well understand his cynicism and his comment of God Damn American, which was taken out of context. The sermon he gave was pretty interesting.

Now I don't like Wright. I think he is a mixed up perhaps traumatized person, but I do undersetand why he might feel the way he does and speak the way he does. Listening to and understanding people is a good thing. It doesn't hurt anyone to hear the other point of view. It is not going to affect us to hear that someone has criticisms of America, I know I do. People crtiicsize what they care about, what means something to them, and in fact it is out right and duty to join the national political debate about things.

The other thing is that it was reported last night on a radio show, uncorroborated, that there were people wishing violence and expressing hate towards Obama at a Palin rally. I think any mainstream political figure in the US that does not strongly scold Sarah Palin for saying nothing to the crowd at a time like that should be impeached, thrown or voted out of office. It is an outrage that Palin would , if this is true, whip an unstable Republican crowd into an almost violent frenzy, I consider that out of bounds for any responsible public servant, and an outrage for candidate for the highest office in the land.

Hi Bruce lol stephanie says it all for me

Esther your wrong on this one Bruce is correct. William Ayers is from my generation and we were activists the word terrorist wasnt in a vocabulary then. Most who use this point were not around at that time and have no idea the political climate around at that time. Many of us were active in that time in history who have gone on to contribute more to society than many of those who were the consumptive idiots in adulthood in the 80s

Well said, Sy.

A change is needed but not to an inexperienced man who does indeed have tis to some of the more unsavory elements of Islam...! No thank you...! He cares nothing for the USA, his actions & his rhetoric display this openly. Nobama needs to first learn what being a congressman is all about, then perhaps I would buy into his scheme but until he finishes something he starts....no thank you!

I knew Bill Ayers personally in the '60s. Barack didn't have a clue who he was when they worked together.

I was also a friend to Abbie Hoffman (before Chicago). This doesn't make me a terrorist (although the thought has crossed my mind).

Good article.

Thanks to all for the positive comments. Sometimes anger is the best muse.

She's a total b##ch to do that !!!

(but that's politics)

Bush wanted us all united when it was on his terms, in his arena, with him being the ring leader. I don't think we were very united in anything other than outrage that we were attacked so boldly. Some of us wondered why it took so long (since terrorism was nothing new in Europe) and some thought it could never happen to us, ever.

Very well said, Sy!!! I think the McCain campaign is just running scared now so they are resorting to high school slander tactics instead of attacking the real issues at hand. In my opinion, she should just grow up! At this juncture, I remain impartial on the candidates by I can tell you that she is definitely swaying my vote!!!

The media-created ascendance of BO is remarkable. He left a skimpy paper trail making him a perfect blank screen that many can project their hopes and desires upon. The intensity of those who want him to be who they hope he is is amazing.

What do you guys think of the quite-interesting theory that Bill Ayers wrote much of BO's first book?

"What do you guys think of the quite-interesting theory that Bill Ayers wrote much of BO's first book?"

This is not a theory, it is a vicious baseless rumor.

Robert, I know liberals hate to be pinned down with facts, but you're unequivocally saying that Bill Ayers did not write much of Dreams from my Father? You imply it, but did not state it plainly. I'd like to get you on the record.

Robert, I know liberals hate to be pinned down with facts, but you're unequivocally saying that Bill Ayers did not write much of Dreams from my Father? You imply it, but did not state it plainly. I'd like to get you on the record

Fine you idiot. I will state that Ayers did not write the book. Now can you state that it is not true that you molested the little girl next door?

I am really getting tired of people just making up crap as they go along and then demanding that others prove the crap they just made up is not true.

Sy, Sy, Sy, I know you didn't think I'd let this pass without comment.
First Obama wants us to believe that Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn are just people he knows from the neighborhood to say hi to. This is about as believable as his saying he sat in Wrights church for twenty years and never heard anything controversial.

Bill Ayers asked Obama to help him disperse 50 million dollars in grants that he received from the Government. Now, I don’t know about you, but I would never get 50 million dollars and go I need someone to help me give this away. Who should I choose? Hmmm, I wonder, that’s it there’s that guy that always says hi to me around the neighborhood. What’s his name again? That’s right Obama. Now how do I get in touch with him? I don’t know his phone number, I mean it’s not like we’re friends. I know, I’ll walk around the neighborhood until he says hi again then I’ll ask him. Sorry don’t buy it. How did he have any idea they’d have similar ideas about wear the money would be most helpful?

Obama kicked off his run for Senate at the Ayers, Dohrn home. Now, I don’t know about you, but I would not kick off something as important as my Senate run at the home of someone I`really didn’t know. Again, sorry, I don’t buy it.

Face it they are friends.

So who are Bernadine Dohrn and Bill Ayers?

Both are former members of the terrorist group the Weathermen Underground. The group responsible for bombing, NYC Police Headquarters, the Capital, the Pentagon, among others.

Bernadine Dohrn (circa 1970)

“Hello. I’m going to read a declaration of a state of war. This is the first communication from the Weathermen Underground. Kids know the lines have been drawn. Revolution is touching all of our lives. Kids are making love, smoking dope, and loading guns. Fugitives of American justice are free to go. Within the next 14 days we will attack a symbol or institution of American injustice.”

“Now we are everywhere. Next week families and tribes will attack the enemy around the country. We are not just attacking targets. We’re bringing the pitiful helpless giant to its knees. Guard your planes, guard your banks, guard your colleges, guard your children, guard your doors.”

I know, I know, that was along time ago. Now they are patriotic repentant America lovers. Oh, really?

Bill Ayers said on 9-11-01 (while you were watching the devastation of your city)

“I don’t regret setting bombs. I feel we didn’t do enough.”

Bill Ayers said 11/07

“This is a time not only of great stress and oppression and authoritarianism but of a rising, incipient, American form of fascism.”

Bernadine Dohrn on the same day said that she believes that the greatest purveyor of violence in the world is the US. (She obviously knows nothing of the radical Islamic worlds treatment of women, gays, or infidels in general, Darfur, Communist China, etc. etc. etc.) She referred to the US as both “the belly of the beast and the heart of the monster) She said we must do away with Capitalism and move towards more of a Venezuelan socialism.

They are both unrepentant domestic terrorists. You might not like the facts but those are the facts. The difference between McVey and Ayers is the body count and the PhD. In my opinion Ayers belongs in the same place as McVey.

Since you are so offended by divisive rhetoric Sy, I’m curious what was the response you got from the Obama camp to your letter about all his divisive preemptive playing of the race card? I still haven’t heard McCain tell me he’s black or that he doesn’t look like all the Presidents on the dollar bills.

Ken

I was not an Obama fan intiially. I also thought "the media" was making too much of him. I dont think that anymore. He is really smart, he speaks like King, he is quick on his feet, and he projects charisma. Is that enough to be president? Its not too shabby.

I have always liked and admired McCain (as I have repeated on Gather many times). But he lost me with the choice of Palin. Remember that a vote for McCain is a vote for Palin. The chances of Palin assuming the presidency during the next 8 years, are quite high. Lets get real, Ken, do you honestly think that she is presidential material?

Shawn, what took you so long? I was starting to get worried.

I heard Dohrn speak once back in the day. I couldnt stand her then, and I cant stand her now. Same with Ayers. But you are missing the point. Everyone can agree that the Weathermen were a bunch of spoiled, evil, stupid and dangerous kids, who caused great harm to their country. And some of them are still doing it. Others, (and look around you folks, I know a couple who are in positions you wouldnt believe) are not. Even Ayers, who is still an idiot and a scoundrel, and whose comments are unpatriotic, has not been anything close to a terrorist for decades, and whose work is supported by Republicans like Annenberg, a McCain supporter. Uh, oh. Wait a minute. Annenberg supports McCain. Annenberg supports Ayers. OMG! McCain pals around with guys who pal around with terrorists. OMG, McCain is a traitor!!! Who would have guessed.

Can we get real here, and focus on the issues. Like where our next jobs are coming from?

I love the tactics. I did not say Ayers wrote Obama's book. I said the theory that he wrote much of it is interesting. I'm not asking you to prove anything, how can you? I'm asking you to state an opinion.

My question is simple. As a study in critical thinking and linkage to reality, how many here will go on record saying that they do not believe William Ayers wrote much of Obama's book Dreams from my Father?

Sy have you ever heard of a country bordering on depression getting out of it by raising taxes on businesses? An moron knows that's tossing a match in a bucket of gasoline. So, yes lets get real. You do understand the reason we are in this mess is because liberals pressured banks into giving mortgages to unqualified borrowers, to "be fair". You realize both Bush and McCain warned the Dems this would happen and were ignored. You do know that Obama was hired to teach "community organizers" how to bully banks into making those loans. Another thing, I find it absolutely hillarious that you won't vote for McCain because he chose Palin as his VP and she's not ready to be President, but you'll vote for Obama who has even less experience than she.

I know you remember the Carter years.

Bill Ayers asked Obama to help him disperse 50 million dollars in grants that he received from the Government

The grant did not come from the government. It came from the privately run philanthropic organization known as the Annenberg Foundation.

Wow Julie big difference obviously you missed the point entirely.

Oh and Sy the last time I checked McCain was not chillin at Annenbergs house or sitting on boards with him. As far as, I know annenberg is not a domestic terrorist. Since when is there a statute of limitation on treason? Who cares when Ayers waged war on the US? He did it. It's not like Dohrn and Ayers are Obama's only questionable friends either.

I remember the Carter years well. He inherited an economy that was poisoned by the war in Viet Nam. I remember it as a time of hope.

None of the bombers, vandals, et. al. during the Viet Nam era were prosecuted for treason. Quite a few of them were prosecuted for other crimes. I'm assuming that the government of the period would have been happy to prosecute some of them for treason if the government thought it had enough for an indictment.

The character assassination practiced by the McCain campaign is a ploy to divert people's attention from the economy. The thing that puzzles me is that they can't come up with anything more than the Ayers and Wright stuff. Both have been public knowledge forever.

Nip you are about the only American that doesn't think Carter was one of the worst Presidents in history.

Hi Sy. Thanks for putting this statement by Governor Palin in perspective. She is playing the attack dog for the campaign and doesn't seem to care much about how accurate her statements are. Ayers has had nothing to do with Obama's campaign for presidency any more than Jeremiah Wright is spokesman for Obama's position on separation of church and state.

I've never been a fan of the Weather underground's tactics, but Ayers and Dohrn had their day in court and have gone on to lead more normal lives.

Since when are we judged in this country based on the people we associate with, whether they are truly our "friends" or not. Last time I checked, guilt by association is much more a trait of the current Russian leadership; we don't need that here in the US.

McCain has made the "Straight Talk Express" his brand in this and prior campaigns, but the brand has been much tarnished by the irresponsible statements that he and Sarah Palin have been so quick to make this year. I liked the Year 2000 McCain. Can't say the same for this version.

I can think of several things I admire about Carter. I can't think of one single solitary thing I admire about W.

So, I guess I can be lumped with Nippy. Good company, I'd say.

James we are all judged by the company we keep and for good reason. Who we choose to associate or not says something about us.

That statement is pretty telling Steph

Sy if 40 years ago some guy raped your daughter, then one day you find out your close friend was hanging out with him so you go to your friend and tell him. His response is oh, I know but that was 40 years ago he hasn't raped anyone since. Then you find out the guy says he isn't sorry for raping her and only wished he'd have raped her longer. Your friend knows he said this but they're still friends. Would you still be your friends buddy or does that say something about his character? Well guess what my friend Dohrn and Ayers raped your country.

In Rules for Radicals Alinsky writes, "There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution."

This is where Senator Barack Obama's campaign about "Change" comes from. He is not talking about positive change but rather the change outlined by his mentor Saul Alinsky. Revolutionary change. Socialist change.

Shawn, nobody here is defending what Ayers and Dohrn did in the early Seventies. But we live by the rule of law and their case got thrown out of court. Would you propose we call them "illegal combatants" and ship them down to Gitmo?

Do you know anyone in Chicago? If you do, the six degrees of separation makes it likely that you also have an "association" with those folks. And the Chicago area political community is much smaller than that. You can choose your friends, but we all have associations both pro and con. In the United States, there is no crime there.

My real point here gets back to what Sy said above. These are phony issues, during a time when really big ones are staring us in the face. The other night in the debate, Senator McCain was unwilling to set priorities among energy, health care and entitlement reform. I don't know about you, but in my job, its important to set priorities, otherwise nothing gets done.

Is this campaign about McCain taking away Social Security, gambling it on Wall Street? Is it about Obama raising taxes on everybody? No, since neither one of these is the position of the candidates, just a distortion by their opponents.

Let's hear what they have to say about the real issues: the economy, health care reform, entitlement reform, energy, the environment, globalization... the list goes on. These are the real issues, not what some guy who is not a candidate did back in the 70's.

Yet another Obama buddy.
When Obama went to Kenya in August of 2006, he was hosted by Raila, and spoke in praise of him at rallies in Nairobi: Obama's bias for his fellow Luo was so blatant that a Kenya government spokesman denounced Obama during his visit as Raila's ‘stooge.’
Raila Odinga, then the current presidential frontrunner, had promised to implement strict Islamic Sharia law if he received the Muslim vote and was elected president. Odinga had signed a secret memorandum of understanding with Sheikh Abdullahi Abdi, chairman of the National Leaders Forum, in which Odinga had allegedly stated his intention, if elected, to: ‘within six months, rewrite the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Sharia as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions’. I hope Obama's female voters are ready to be stoned to death if they visit Kenya and even look sideways at a man.

True enough but what about what a buddy and political supporter said last year or last month

What has been lost in this whole debate is that character matters.

And yet another buddy.
Convicted Felon political fixer and corrupt land dealer Tony Rezko.

I could keep going. Anyone see a pattern. How many of you associate with that many America haters and criminals?

Character matters. McCain has had ample opportunity to demonstrate his. That's one reason I'm voting for Obama.

Shawn,

You need to wake up and -- not only your facts, but check yourself. George Bush's approval rating rivals is as low as Richard Nixon's was at the time of Watergate.

I do NOT have time to talk about that, though.

My purpose on Gather today is to monitor a discussion on racism. Want to join, Shawn?

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977471783

Thank you for the idea, Nippy:
Obama

Hey Nip the fact that the man was willing to be tortured for five years rather than leave his men behind in the Hanoi Hilton says all anyone needs to know about McCain's character, The man is an American hero. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Obama '08 -- all the way!

Character does matter. People you "know" don't make you who you are. In the end, you should be judged by who you are and what you do. If we'll let our perceptions of the depth and caliber of people's relationships with each other blind us to what someone is or says, we're fools.

Many a celebrity is well-loved but found to be an ass in reality. Many a jerk or apparent idiot was a dedicated father. Our rush to judge people we don't know, relationships (and their signficance) we've never seen in person and what that means about someone is ludicrous and embarassing. If someone appoints someone unsuitable to a key issue, one that has bearing on our nation, it's our business, like choosing an unqualified vice presidential candidate or having a key financial advisor convicted of embezzlement.

I interact with and know many people I don't agree with or don't even like. Some of that is through my job. Some of that is to try to better understand people who don't think like I do. I am not a radical republican because I talk to them. We will never work together for the future if we insist on only associating with like minds. Polarization can be the end of this nation.

I would put it a different way, the whole country should be more familiar with the way different people think and why.

It is a huge net plus for a President to know Jeremiah Wright, William Ayers, and that includes wackos and former wackos and reformed wackos from the right and the left.

Obama is right to say, think and believe that ignoring people, marginalizing them, villifiying them, without knowing the truth and why is an injustice and stupidity that his country has engaged in politically over and over and over.

We might not be in this mess with oil today if we had not overthrown Mossedei(sp?) in Iran and installed the shaw because we knew that he hung around with terrorists ... in this case communists.

The same with Viet Nam, what we say as Communism on the march, was Viet Namese nationalism against being raped and screwed over by the West.

When you do not hear people and try to understand them, you make mistakes of worldshaking proportions.

I am thanking God that what shall NOT be the end of this nation is another 4 years under the current tactics and/or Administration's policies of the Bush/McCain/Palin train

What I believe shall be the undoing of this nation is what always undoes unions -- strife, and division.

Well atleast the Obamazombies aren't being divisive lol. I love how you guys have no problem painting McCain with guilt by association brush of Bush. lol what a joke.

Shawn, you seem to miss the point that an association by itself is just an association, and association to Bush and the radical Republican machine is significant, in a bad way, a way that has in 8 short years brought the very existence of this country as a world superpower not to mention our competence and fairness into serious question around the world.

John, good question, I think we are not a Christian nation, but we are our brother's keepers. What that means and how to do that is the question. I think the do a good job of this kind of thing in the so-called European "socialist" democracies.

The thing that has called into question the effectiveness of ability to do this in my opinion has been the deliberate sabotage of the whole idea by some of the people at the top.

Sort of like using the fall of the USSR to justify that socialism is ineffective or invalid, when the USSR was a totalitarian tyranny. In murdering millions of its people and watching them and reacting to the slightest hint of political opposition by imprisooning or murdering people the USSR was not taking care of its people. The whole discussion has been distorted for so long peolpe do not even use their minds to think about reality anymore, they just react to words that have been programmed into them.

Amazing. There is much work to be done.

Yeah look how well the government ran social security and medicare. Lets give them Healthcare and Industry are @$%^ing kidding me? Why is it all these socialist countries in Europe are now electing conservatives? As far as, the Bush thing goes Obama says McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time, news flash Obama voted with Dem Congress (which has a lower approval rating than Bush) 100% of the time, well when he wasn't voting present.

Wow Jeff nuts much?

Shawn,

How long do you think those conservatives would stay in power if they tried to remove healthcare?

That's one of the reasons they were elected. Look into European or Canadian Healthcare sometime and let me know what you think.

So You Want Universal Healthcare? Obama or Hillary’s Plan?
Posted on March 23, 2008 by politicalnighttrain
Ads by Google
Concierge Health Care
Top Medical Experts Providing You With Exclusive Care. 888-560-3856.
www.PinnacleCare.com




Both Senator Obama and Hillary Clinton have proposed universal or “single payer” healthcare systems, though there is very little difference between the two approaches. Both proposals currently contain some provision for private healthcare, but for how long. Once we are down the road to government run healthcare, how long before a Democratic controlled Congress goes along and passes a true government run system? Four years? Eight? And once in place, it will never be undone. Political Night Train believes we need more light on how other universal healthcare systems are doing and because of a recent posting by a reader, we will run a series of articles that try to get at what the Canadian system offers, or does not offer it’s citizens. Here then is the first, and perhaps one of the best articles we’ve seen. You can read the entire article at http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/Articles/Opinion/Your%20Turn/2008/02/26/23084/ Your Turn: The real cost of “free healthcare”A letter to the editors Private healthcare does have its problems, but it is hard to argue that it is failing on the whole. With Canada being the main country of comparison for many healthcare arguments, it will be the main focus of comparison for this piece. A widespread myth about healthcare is that Canada’s universal coverage system is superior to the U.S.’s private system in terms of quality of care received. This is a vital dynamic of the healthcare system and claims against quality of care should not be taken lightly. A patient of Canadian healthcare waits 17.7 weeks, on average, for hospital treatment with residents of Saskatchewan waiting an average of 30 weeks. These waiting times are unheard of in America’s private system. In the United States, the occasional story of a death occurring while waiting for an operation, while unfortunate and heart-wrenching, is nothing short of ordinary in countries with socialized medicine. In 1999, Dr. Richard F. Davies, a cardiologist at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute, described to the Canadian Institute for Health Information how delays affected Ontario heart patients scheduled for coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In a single year, for this one operation, the doctor reported, “71 Ontario patients died before surgery, 121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery,” and “44 left the province to have the surgery, many having gone to the United States for the operation.” In short, 192 people either died or became too sick to have surgery before even getting a chance to be operated on. You say you want universal healthcare, like that being proposed by Senator Obama or Hillary? You say the Canadians have universal healthcare and that it’s a great system? Let’s read what the Canadians have to say. The following article is an excellent example of how the elderly are treated at Canadian hospitals. Still want to send your mama or grandpa to a universal healthcare hospital?

Almost euthanasia
By Klaus Rohrich Tuesday, February 26, 2008

Next time you feel like bragging about how great the Canadian healthcare system is you may want to consider what’s routinely done to elderly patients in some of our hospitals. Recently an elderly woman, let’s call her Mary, had a stroke, which affected the left side of her body, meaning that the stroke occurred in the right lobe of her brain. Mary was admitted to hospital in a fairly timely fashion and was quickly diagnosed by competent medical staff, including a neurologist. After the diagnosis she was given an intravenous drip (IV) containing blood thinners and other medications designed to ameliorate the affects of the stroke. She also received a CAT scan, which established that the stroke had caused considerable damage to her brain. The hospital informed the family that there wasn’t much that could be done for Mary and to prepare for the inevitable, even suggesting the withdrawal of the IV. The family was devastated at the prospect of losing Mary and hesitated in following the hospital’s recommendation, reasoning that withholding medication and nourishment was contrary to their belief in the sanctity of life. Here’s where the story gets interesting. It took four days for the neurologist to contact the family regarding Mary’s prognosis, and when he finally did contact them he informed them that he had cancelled plans for Mary to have a speech therapist and physiotherapist. His view of Mary’s prognosis was that the situation was completely hopeless, as a second CAT scan had revealed even more severe damage to the right lobe of Mary’s brain than the first. “There’s nothing else to be done,” the doctor informed the crestfallen family members. Mary, however, had other plans. As she lay in her hospital bed for over three weeks, she slowly began to regain her ability to speak and actually managed to move parts of her left side, starting with the toes on her left foot. Throughout all this time Mary’s family and friends were at the side of her hospital bed caring for her and communicating their love to her. On numerous occasions Mary was able to speak to relatives in Germany in her native German and related the conversation to family members at the hospital in English. She also regained the ability to write—all on her own without help of a therapist. As her speech managed to improve, Mary began to express a desire to eat, as for the entire time that she had been hospitalized the hospital had failed to feed her. When questioned by Mary’s family as to why they hospital refused to give Mary food, the nurses explained that it was a liability issue, as stroke patients were never fed until they had passed a “swallowing test”. Only problem is the person qualified to administer the swallowing test is an itinerant tester that apparently moves from hospital to hospital, covering, it seems, a fairly wide range of territory. According to the hospital, during the three weeks that Mary had been hospitalized this tester had had only one occasion to visit the hospital to administer said swallowing test, but Mary was sleeping and was therefore not tested. It seems highly implausible that a community of over 20,000 people with an ultra-modern hospital wouldn’t have visits from a qualified professional tasked with testing stroke victims more frequently than once every three or four weeks. Much more plausible is the doctor’s view that Mary’s life isn’t worth saving, given the results of the CAT scan, regardless of Mary’s remarkable progress. What happened to Mary under the Canadian government healthcare monopoly is frightening, albeit not unusual, as many other people have related similar stories. What happened to Mary would under any other circumstances be described as an attempt at euthanasia. But here in Canada they call it healthcare.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2048

Last month, the Canadian Medical Association (CMA) released a new study showing that last year patients waiting for health care services in just four clinical areas cost Canada’s economy $14.8-billion in lost productivity and health expenses. It is clear that health care rationing and maintaining inappropriate wait times for medical care represent poor public policy. A study released last month by the European-based Health Consumer Powerhouse, comparing Canada’s health system to 29 European countries, ranked us 23rd overall, and last in terms of value for money spent. We can and should do better.

WHY ARE CANADIANS STILL WAITING FOR HEALTH CARE?
Wait lists for medically necessary health care are Canada’s shame, says writer Nadeem Esmail. Canadians are generally proud of their universal access health insurance program, which ostensibly provides access to care regardless of ability to pay. However, as Beverly McLachlin, Chief Justice of the Canadian Supreme Court, says, access to a waiting list is not access to health care. An examination of Canada’s lengthy wait lists can help put that statement in perspective, says Esmail:

In 2007, wait times for access to health care in Canada reached a new historic high: 18.3 weeks averaged across 12 medical specialties.
Canadians waited a median of 25 weeks for cataract surgery from the time their general practitioner referred them to a specialist to the time they received treatment.
More alarmingly:

Canadians waited a median of 42 weeks for joint replacement.
This means that those patients who were referred by the their general practitioner for a hip or knee replacement surgery on January 2, only half would have received their treatment by October 23 while half would still be waiting for care.
Consider the personal costs a wait line of that magnitude entails:

A patient may experience an adverse event while waiting.
The wait could cause a potentially more difficult surgery and recovery.
Any wait time entails some amount of pain and suffering, mental anguish, lost leisure, lost productivity at work, and strained personal relationships.
How concerned is the government about the personal costs associated with these lengthy wait times? According to Esmail, not much. Their main goal is to avoid serious negative health consequences rather than minimize waiting and, thus, personal costs all together.Source: Nadeem Esmail, “Why are Canadians Still Waiting for Healthcare?” Fraser Institute, February, 2008.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=15694

MORE PRIVATE HEALTH CARE IN CANADA URGED
The architect of Quebec’s now-overburdened public health care system is proposing a strong and controversial remedy that includes further privatization and user fees of up to C$100 (about U.S. $98) for people to see their family doctor.In a 338-page report, former provincial Liberal health minister Claude Castonguay concluded that Quebec can no longer sustain the annual growth in health care costs. The province currently spends about C$24 billion (about U.S. $23.6 billion) annually on health care, or about 40 per cent of its budget.Other recommendations include:

A new tax, including a “health care deductible” based on income and the number of visits made to a doctor’s office or hospital in a calendar year. Low-income families and children would be exempt.
Encouraging private-sector involvement in the management of hospitals and medical clinics.
Lifting a ban that prevents doctors from practicing both in the public system and privately.
Raising the provincial sales tax by up to one percentage point.
In the report, provocatively titled “Getting Our Money’s Worth,” the working group headed by Castonguay also recommends an overhaul of the Canada Health Act, which “sooner or later must be adapted to today’s realities.”“If nothing is done, at one point we will reach a crisis point … this is why we say it is urgent to act,” Castonguay said. “There’s no miracle solution, there is no simple solution.”Source: Sean Gordon, “More private health care urged: Report for Quebec government proposes fees, health act changes to help overburdened system,” Toronto Star, February 20, 2008.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=15608

you really believe that the code phrase “Universal Health Care” is anything but socialized medicine? Read this article from the Telegraph before you answer. Read it all the way through because the really important information is buried toward the end. Because it matters.

Gaius highlights a bit: British cancer patients are substantially more likely to die of the disease than those in other western European countries because of poor access to the latest drugs, according to an authoritative report to be published today.
[...]
The proportion of colorectal cancer patients with access to the drug Avastin was 10 times higher in the US than it was in Europe, with the UK having a lower uptake than the European average.

It seems very strange to me that while Canada, Britain, France and the other countries with socialized health care systems find those systems in steady decline, the Democrats keep telling us that socialized medicine is the way to go. It’s certainly the way to put an enormous amount of money and citizen control within the power of the Government…but will it save you’re life? Not if there’s a waiting list, and not if - as I suspect - availability of treatment will only be sanctioned by the government if you have lived your life by their standards. ‘Smith!’ screamed the shrewish voice from the telescreen. ‘6079 Smith W.! Yes, you! Bend lower, please!

Money and power…I can’t think of any other rational reason why the Democrats want to push us toward a health care system that clearly does not work.

The other thing that worries me about socialized medicine is that there is no incentive there for the best-and-the-brightest to undertake the arduous work (and heavy cost) of obtaining medical degrees, so that they can be under the power of the Government, rather than allowed to strike out on their own. Then who will be our next doctors? The second tier students? The third? Socialism too often is a showcase for mediocrity. It doesn’t work. The private sector is imperfect, and there are certainly issues within our health care system that need addressing, particularly for the un-insured, but throwing us into this fresh hell is not the answer.

Maybe the answer is to help uninsured people, especially those with children, to buy into the same health insurance plan (or a reduced one, with reduced premiums) that our government employees tap into. Would that work?

Seems to me with all the big plans out there, already in existence, there should be a way for un-insured folks to participate for a manageable fee. People don’t need to be “given” things - all that does is strip them of their dignity and their sense of self-pride [See comments section for an expansion of that thought - admin]. But there must be a way to include them in some sort of discounted participation. We need some new people in government, with new ideas. These tired, old ones need to be put to bed.

Ed Morrissey picks up on the story here.


Tigerhawk quotes a doctor who left medicine once it was taken over by his government. Don’t miss it.
RELATED: Class tells; Class wars do not


Maggie's Farm tracked back with Friday Afternoon Links...
Socialized Medicine, The Kiss Of Death « Sigmund, Carl and Alfred pinged back with Socialized Medicine, The Kiss Of Death « Sigmund, Carl and Alfred
by TheAnchoress @ 10:41 pm. Filed under America, Medical, Socialism doesn't work
[Trackback URL] [link] [ Print This Post ] [ShareThis]
Trackback URL for this post:
http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/05/09/us-cancer-care-10x-better-than-socialized-uk/trackback/


13 Responses to “US Cancer Care 10X better than socialized UK”
ckrieger Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 8:27 am
You don’t have to wait for full socialization for the best and the brightest to avoid entering the world of medicine. My aunt is an oncologist with two daughters. Either of them would make fantastic physicians, but my aunt told them not to bother. Government interference was already too much.

tess Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Amen to this!
I maintain that any American who supports socialized healthcare should spend some time in the military’s healthcare system, or on Medicare/Medicaid. The patient exists as a social security number, and new or alternative treatments are rarely covered.

Bender B. Rodriguez Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 9:10 am
It seems to me that the high-medical-cost problems that we have experienced in this country all started when we began down the road of quasi-socialized medicine with the HMO model of health care, where every tiny little thing was paid by someone other than the recipient of the care. Of course, I was only a kid at the time, but it seems to me that things were better when “health insurance” actually meant “insurance,” that is, it covered unexpected events such as accidents, hospitalizations, and other major medical costs, but regular office visits and drugs were all out-of-pocket. Back then, people could actually afford to pay for office visits and routine health care. Now with so-called insurance, more properly called “health plans,” covering such routine care, providers have priced them beyond the ability of “non-insured” to pay.
.
Socialized medicine — whether directly involving the government or a quasi form involving big insurance companies — doesn’t work at cost containment or at the provision of quality care, just like socialized education has caused tuition and education costs to skyrocket while the quality of education has gone down.

Viola Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Germany has socialized health care and I am often told that many are willing to pay out of their own pockets to get the service they really want. However, it gets really expensive going that route.

Socialized medicine is great for those who can’t afford insurance…but I agree with you, there should be a way for low income people to buy insurance at a reduced cost. It is a disgrace that in a country as rich as the States, are people that are going without health coverage because they can’t afford it. Something needs to be done.

Sigmund Carl and Alfred Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Excellent.

See this for a real look at a one of the BETTER socialized healthcare system.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/health/index.asp?snav=he

As I like to say, if you think health care is expensive now, wait until it’s free.

Socialized Medicine, The Kiss Of Death « Sigmund, Carl and Alfred Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 11:06 am
[...] 10th, 2007 The numbers are in and the Anchoress offers up the analysis. In US Cancer Care 10X Times Better Than Socialized UK, she notes that It seems very strange to me that while Canada, Britain, France and the other [...]

GJMiller Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
If Cuban health care is so splendid, why did Senor Castro send away for a Spanish physician to come treat him when he was stricken with cancer?

stephanie Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Hmm…”People don’t need to be “given” things - all that does is strip them of their dignity and their sense of self-pride.”
Actually, right now it helps to pay the bills. I think I can trade a little dignity for being able to have a roof over my head, personally.
As fas as plans go, there are some. The rub is, if you work making more than $5/hr at a job, you are ineligible for those plans-you make too much. That’s why we battle so much getting helth inusrance for my best friend and my godsons. She’s a cake decorator at Wal mart, and she makes too much money.

TheAnchoress Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Stephanie, I think you of all people understand my meaning. As I did say in my piece, there should be a way for people to buy into existing health plans, paying what they can. It makes the difference between feeling like a “failure” and a “welfare case” and feeling like a person who is in the game, working hard and trying to do right.
‘
As you know, Steph, I’ve been poor; I know the drill - I know what it is to roll coin to afford a haircut, or to go to work with a purse that contains a dime, a subway token and a bottle of clear nail-polish, in order to try to salvage one more wear out of a pair of pantyhose that is threatening 100 runs.
‘
Sometimes people need a hand-out, yes, but making it a way of life has never ended up being a positive - as we see in the UK - and in no way does it help a person to strive to reach their fullest potential if everyone is simply “given” things. No handout can replace the sense of pride one gets by accomplishing things on one’s own.
‘
It is very difficult for me to fathom that a mom making $5 bucks an hour and trying to support two kids does not qualify for some sort of help. Food stamps, WIC these things are in place…there SHOULD be something in place to help out such a mom (and for all I know there is something in place, that we’re unaware of). There should always be something in place to help those who are really struggling and trying to make it. That’s very different than a socialized, universal health care system that lowers the quality and availability of care for everyone.
‘
Do you really disagree with that? I will be surprised if you do.

Kougar Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Tess:
As an active duty healt care provider in the military, your one liner about Tricare and the military health system sound a little glib. The idea that the military does not offer cutting edge and/or alternative treatments is just plain false. When it comes to surgical procedures or cancer treatment, all active duty patients get the best care. Granted, Tricare may not be perfect, but it’s not like people aren’t getting the treatment they need. I’d prefer to see more specific examples of how bad military medicine really is….and don’t try to unfairly us the problems at WRAMC to back up your point.

As for “socialized” health care, or whatever that means, most people have the misconception that those who advocate universal health care mean something along the lines of the what the UK has. Most UHC advocates are pushing for universal health care insurance, not socializing the entire health care industry. Our employee based system clearly doesn’t work for the lower income bracket, and depending on the “free market” is a fallacy. We can’t depend on the market forces to ensure that the poor have access to basic health care. And I’m not so sure that using this one study about the availability of cancer drugs in Britain should lead one to conclude that socialized health care is a bust; the issue is a lot more complex than that. Notice the Anchoress conveniently forgets to include the data from other European countries who have socialized health care “The researchers, whose report is published in the journal Annals of Oncology, found that Austria, France, Switzerland and the US were leaders in using new cancer drugs.” It’s also interesting to note that Avastin, while it may be more available in the US, it costs 50K a year to use it, and probably even higher for lung and breast cancer. And remember, this is a drug that extends life a few months for advanced colon cancer, so we’re not talking cure. That’s problem when you take a one-liner from the Torygraph and use it as predictable prop for free market fundamentalism. The free market is not a panacea, and the government isn’t always bad!

TheAnchoress Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
I have some first-hand experience with military health-care re a family member, and I’m inclined to think that for the most part it’s not the horror story some would suggest.
‘
As to socialized health care - in my archives (I’m rushing out) one may find other pieces which link to stories about heart patients in England who are flown to India to get treatment, about thousands of French patients who died during a heatwave, while under treatement, and about people in both Germany and Canada who purchase supplemental health insurance so that should they become ill and need treatment, they may come to the US and get it in a timely fashion, without being subject to a decision as to whether they’ll be treated due to age or lifestyle choice. That matters, because we’re already seeing articles - in “socialized” countries, suggesting that older patients are being denied care or being delayed care because “hey, they’re 68, this guy’s younger, so the procedure will be more worthwhile.” When the nanny staters start deciding that YOU should not get treatment because you were a smoker, or you had a few drinks, or you had unprotected sex…it won’t be pretty.
‘
Church is for sinners and doctors are for sick people. Neither institutions should determine how much help someone gets based on how good they’ve been, but it’s coming to that, in the health care industries. Under government control, you can count on it happening.
‘
And Kouger, no, I didn’t link to more of the article - I try not to tempt the bandwidth budget - but I DO link, so everyone has access to the full article. Also, I think it is safe to say that Hillarycare was in every way, shape and form “socialized” medicine. We don’t need it. We DO need, as I said - and I think you agree - something to allow the underinsured and poor participation in some sort of health care collective. But I distrust the ability of government - any government’s one from the left or the right - to really come up with such a plan without it immediately becoming bloated and unmanageable.
‘
And life and humanity being what they are, even after the introduction of such a program…there will still be poor, there will still be sick, there will still be those who do not get medical coverage. There always will be. That’s just life. None of that means we can’t worth TOGETHER to create something practical. Sadly, we just won’t. We can’t when political gameplaying has replaced leadership.

stephanie Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
“It is very difficult for me to fathom that a mom making $5 bucks an hour and trying to support two kids does not qualify for some sort of help. Food stamps, WIC these things are in place…there SHOULD be something in place to help out such a mom (and for all I know there is something in place, that we’re unaware of). There should always be something in place to help those who are really struggling and trying to make it. That’s very different than a socialized, universal health care system that lowers the quality and availability of care for everyone.”
First I have to say you’ve caught me on something of a despairing day, Anchoress-it’s been a rough week. I don’t disagree that there’s a large difference between helping someone while they’re down and giving them a lifetime handout. But I don’t see our system helping people while they’re down. That costs money- which is why a mother making $5 can’t get government assistance. Given the limited budget to go around, the money just isn’t there. At least that’s that’s the answer we keep getting.
I’m a moderate- i don’t disagree that some of the socialized societies out there go too far with subsidies. But I also believe we don’t go anywhere near far enough.

Maggie's Farm Says:
May 11th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Friday Afternoon Links…

Adding to blogroll: Theo Spark, under Anglosphere. The charmer on the right with the nice smile is borrowed from Theo, who posts lots of mostly-political graphics. Hmmmm, is the pool open yet? Where my Ray-Bans at? Ya gotta love this globalistical w…

Uh, HELLO ????? Bill Ayers is a TERRORIST and he's damn proud of it.

Obama does in fact, have close ties to this TERRORIST.

Perhaps you are just IGNORANT OF THE FACTS ????

Check this link for the "Weather Underground"

By the way, You should have a look at one of their most outrageous acts of terrorism, which was Days of Rage

If you find it unreasonable to cast Bill Ayers as a "terrorist," then you should do a reality check and get with the program.

If you find it unreasonable to use the words "pal around with a terrorist," you should check your Chicago machine politics and their history, complete with Barack Obama.

Bill Ayers IS a terrorist, and Obama DOES have close ties to this guy-- in fact Obama's political career (fundraising for his campaign) was launched in the terrorist's (Bill Ayers) LIVING ROOM ! ! ! ! !

Perhaps you'd have been wiser to keep your "open" letter closed, or-- better yet, you should have checked the FACTS before you decided to write a misinformed, misguided letter in the first place.

Civil Disobedience was rampant by thousands of folks during the Vietnam war and to call them terrorists is stupid, as in reality they are the patriots that changed the ideology of the Vietnam war and caused the US to withdraw from that war.

Currently Vietnam is one of the better managed countries in South Asia, and doing fine.

Who wants to give candidates a lie detector test? Check out the article.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977472913

jJack, Sy is a very thoughtful, intellegent person. He doesn't happen to share our view of Ayers. He does have a right to voice his opinion however misguided. He is always respectful of different views and deserves the same respect.

By the way the British called John Adams a terrorists, but most in the US called him a patriot, therefore, it all depends upon ones point of view and I see Bill Ayers as a patriot that helped the US get the country back on the right track.

So what you are saying is when Ayers was waging war against America he was actually an American hero. Am I right, Rich?
Shut up you big dope. lol
I'm not quite as thoughtful or respectful as Sy. lol.
Seriously Rich do you know how many South Vietnamese and Cambodians were killed by the communists when we left?

Civil Disobedience was rampant by thousands of folks during the Vietnam war and to call them terrorists is stupid

Spoken from ignorance--- did you look at the links ???

Look, "sitting in" is "civil disobedience." Chaining yourself to the door of the courthouse is civil disobedience.

SETTING OFF BOMBS IS TERRORISM, and anyone that doubts the Weatherman set off bombs should do some RESEARCH ! ! ! ! !

Was Timothy McVeigh engaging in "civil disobedience" when he blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City ???

Sorry, I'll continue to call a spade a spade.....

The American REVOLUTIONARIES were in fact TERRORISTS---- from the eyes of the British crown.

Just as Bill Ayers is a TERRORIST--- from the eyes of our American leaders, and all sensible citizens.

Sounds peachy Rich
European Parliament Condemns
Human Rights Violations in Vietnam
Resolution on the situation in Vietnam and the cases of Mr. Doan Viet Hoat, Mr. Nguyen Dan Que and Mr Thich Khong Tanh

The European Parliament,

A. deeply concerned about the state of health of Mr Doan Viet Hoat, who has been in prison for nearly twenty years for offences of opinion,

B. whereas Mr Doan Viet Hoat spent 12 years in prison without judgment, and whereas in 1988 he was rearrested for publishing articles critical of the Communist regime and, in 1993, sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment and 5 years' house arrest,

C. deploring the fact that since 1993 Mr Doan Viet Hoat has been transferred to five different places of detention and that living conditions in the labour camps have continually deteriorated,

D. concerned, furthermore, about the state of health of Mr Nguyen Dan Que, who in 1991, in totally unfair proceedings, was sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment for having sought to 'overthrow the government of the people',

E. deploring the fact that numerous political prisoners are still incarcerated in Vietnam for offences of opinion,

F. condemning the widespread practice of unfair trials where the rights of the defence are in no way respected,

G. concerned about the very harsh conditions in which prisoners are held in Vietnam, and particularly those held in re education camps,

H. whereas fundamental freedoms and human rights continue to be subordinated to the principle of the defence of 'national security', and stressing the unconstitutionality of Decree 31/CP of 14 April 1997, which allows individuals who are regarded as a danger to State security to be sentenced, without being charged and without trial, to penalties of up to two years' imprisonment,

I. whereas in particular the intellectual Nguyan Xuan Tu, alias Ha Si Phu, the writer Tieu Dao Bao Cu and the poet Bui Minh Quoc are currently subject to the Decree 31/CP regime and are kept under close surveillance by the security forces,

J. condemning the discrimination against and repression of religious practices not recognized by the Communist regime,

K. having regard to the arbitrary censorship to which official press organs are subjected in the name of State security, and the ban on independent press organs,

L. stressing the illegal nature of the arrest and conviction of Mr Thich Khong Tanh, a Buddhist monk belonging to the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam, who had organized a humanitarian mission to assist flood victims and who, together with some 20 other persons, was sentenced to several years in prison for 'sabotaging the policy of solidarity' and 'exploiting freedom and democratic rights to the detriment of the interests of the State, social organizations and citizens',

M. deeply concerned at the numerous demonstrations of public dissatisfaction with the corruption of the Communist regime which have occurred in various regions of Vietnam, the very high rate of taxation and the prohibitive cost of land, and condemning the violent repression of these demonstrations by the military and police forces,

N. having regard to the very large number of offences punishable by the death penalty (34) and its growing use by the authorities,

O. whereas only a policy of far reaching political and economic reforms, fully guaranteeing the establishment of the rule of law and the opening of the economy to the market and competition, could contribute to a gradual resolution of the serious situation facing Vietnam,

The European Parliament,

1.____ Calls on the authorities of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam to quash immediately the convictions of Mr Doan Viet Hoat, Mr Nguyen Dan Que, Mr Thich Khong Tanh and his friends, and their release, as well as that of all other prisoners of conscience;

2.____ Calls for the house arrest of Mr Thich Huyen Quang and Mr Thich Quang Do, senior religious leaders of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam, to be lifted;

3.____ Calls on the Vietnamese authorities to halt the implementation of Decree 31/CP and all repressive measures against all current victims of them, particularly Mr Ha Si Phu, Mr Tieu Dao Bao Cu and Mr Bui Minh Quoc;

4.____ Calls for the immediate closure of all re education camps and the abolition of offences of opinion;

5.____ Reminds the Vietnamese authorities that freedom of opinion and the press are necessary conditions for the economic and social development of Vietnam and that independent press organs must be authorized;

6.____ Calls on the Government of Vietnam to initiate a process of political and economic reform geared to instituting the genuine rule of law and an open economy from which all citizens of Vietnam can benefit;

7.____ Reminds the Vietnamese authorities that opposition to and criticism of government policy form part of fundamental individual liberties and therefore cannot under any circumstances be regarded as offences;

8.____ Calls on the Government of Vietnam to abolish immediately Decree CP/31 and all laws subordinating fundamental freedoms to the defence of national security;

9.____ Reminds the Vietnamese authorities that the cooperation agreement between the EU and Vietnam is based on respect for human rights and democracy;

10.____ Calls on the Vietnamese authorities to initiate immediately a reform of the judicial system such as to guarantee neutrality, transparency and respect for fundamental individual rights;

11.____ Calls on the Council and Commission to make respect for and promotion of human rights the priority in their relations with the Government of Vietnam;

12.____ Calls on the Government of Vietnam to guarantee complete freedom to the various religious faiths;

13.____ Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission and the Government of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see what you mean Rich no problems there.

John, we are a nation of underachivers, and the reason is that the very wealthy and privileged cannot bear to realize that great, revolutionary, or financial accomplishment is not for the most part hereditary.

We have people who got the leadership positions worldwide that had power handed down to them because of who they are, not what they are, what they have done, mostly in spite of it.

Look at George W. Bush, used being a CEO of two companies as experience to reach the Presidency, when he was only NOT indicted by the SEC for insider trading because he was the Presidents son. Come on, this is now easy enough to see and understand for even the most dense and ideaologically rightwing of all of us, and this is why the Republicans are going to lose, or if there was a rigged election why there will be veritable revolution.

People are tired of the average sub-moron running the country on whim and image.