• Home
  • Friends
  • Groups
  • Share

SIGN IN | HELP
noplacelikehere.gather.com
  • group home|
  • featured|
  • posts|
  • photos|
  • videos|
  • members
by ♯ ♪
Member since:
August 11, 2006

Believe it or Not - The Trials of a Fallen (Yet Spiritual) Catholic

November 24, 2006 02:09 PM EST
views: 259 | comments: 98

Sometimes, I really don't care where I'm from. This is where I am now.

There’s been a lot of controversy on Gather lately regarding religion, the sanctity of religion, satire and its place with respect to religion, respect of others’ religious beliefs, etc. Personally, I can’t speak for the people involved; I can only read what they write and ponder it. It’s my own personal choice not to comment, or to leave a comment if I feel the need.

What I don’t like to see, either here or anywhere else, is the sort of “lynch mob” mentality that takes over when a person or group feels threatened. You don’t only see it with regard to religion. Just three weeks ago, with the elections looming large, liberals and conservatives were slinging the mud just as furiously. You see it when some supposed hottie shows her half-naked butt to the world and leaves biting comments because others attack her. It is fear that drives the attacks; and for what? These are only the words and only thoughts, of people who may or may not agree with you. These are not bullets or cannons or bombs. They cannot hurt you unless you allow them to.

Many might call me a heathen; some might want to pray for me. Why? I choose not to go to church, or belong to organized religion. Yet I consider myself to be highly spiritual, in touch with what’s good in the universe and the good that’s inside of me. These are my trials as a fallen Catholic.

My mother was a very devout, Catholic convert. She converted from the Shinto religion when she came to the United States and because of my father, who was also Catholic. My father, far from devout, stopped going to church when he was old enough to smoke, drink and do what he wanted to-about age 12. It was much later, about 15 years ago that I learned his childhood parish priest was involved in the molestation of several boys, one in particular, of my uncle. I can see why going to church held very little value in my father’s mind.

In my youth, we all went to church, and I was enrolled in Catholic grade schools as well. In my middle school years, I started to question the rigidity of a church which was supposed to embrace all who came to its doors. You were supposed to be loving, yet nuns were slapping your knuckles with rulers or dragging you about by your ear lobes. In reality, Catholicism, as well as the other churches, does not embrace everyone. It doesn’t matter how good you are or what your intentions may be. If you are a homosexual, if you actively participate in any contraception besides the rhythm method, if you have sex before marriage, if you allow abortion, if you disagree with the politics of the priest, you are not welcome to worship here.

(I would like to interject at this point that it was while at Catholic grade school in the 1960s, I first learned – from my teachers – that the Bible was translated many times over the last 1,900 years, and that many of the translations were changed for political reasons, or translated “incorrectly” because of language differences. People who may want to dispute this point should look online for a minute or two. There are many online references to problems in translation of the Bible. In fact, we were told to get a certain version of the Bible, because it would be closer to the “Catholic” way of thinking.)

It was no surprise then, that during high school, I decided to see what other religions had to offer. My best friend and I spent our Sundays going to various services. This wasn’t so easy to do in a small town like Colorado Springs was in the early 1970s. We attended the Baptist, Episcopalian, Methodist and Jehovah Witness services. We read the works of Ram Dass, the Bahai holy texts and the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. (In fact, my friend ended up attending and graduating from the Maharishi International University.)

There were good things about many of these institutions, but the people there always gave you that nagging feeling that if I didn’t agree on one tenet, I would be rejected. And there was always something I didn’t agree with, or that didn’t sit right with me.

One of my friends was Baptist, and her mother held prayer groups where we were “prayed” over. As a typical sixteen year old, I didn’t feel like I was that close to damnation where I had to be “prayed” over. Overall, I was a pretty good kid. For example, I’d never been arrested. I didn’t even start experimenting sexually until I was 16, so I was indeed a late bloomer. My drug use was tame and limited. I was usually nice to people. I played guitar at church for mass, and did community service (before there was even a term for it) every Saturday by entertaining the elderly in rest homes. Yet, here was this middle-aged woman praying for me. There was something more than slightly annoying about having a person you barely knew praying for your soul without your consent.

When I was 18, I married for the first time. My soon-to-be husband was in the military, and because of our impetuous youth, we felt the ceremony had to be done right away. My mother felt it we had to be married in the Catholic Church. We were married in the chapel at Ft. Carson, after a whirlwind courtship and no premarital classes, which usually were prescribed by the church. Had we taken them, I might not have been married at all. Nine months later, we were divorced in the eyes of the law, but not in the eyes of the church.

Fast forward eight years; I wanted to marry again, and my fiancé was Catholic. His parents wanted us to marry in the church. We could only be married in the church if 1. I received an annulment, and 2. We took the premarital classes. We took the classes; but I found I could only get an annulment if I paid the Archdiocese of St. Paul $3,000. I had to fill out paperwork claiming abuse of some sort. This wasn’t true; in fact, my failed first marriage was because of poor timing and immaturity. In the eyes of the Church, that’s not a valid reason for an annulment, however; so I was encouraged to embellish my story for the Archbishop. In the midst of taking these classes, I found I truly loathed my fiancé; we broke up, thus saving me the expense of $3,000 to erase my first marriage in the eyes of God.

Since then, I’ve wised up. I’ve refused to actively participate in any church which will cleanse my soul and clear my marriage for mere monetary contributions. My husband, who was also baptized Catholic, and I married in the inter-denominational and welcoming Church of God, both of us having been married once before. He’s also not big on organized religion. However, the specter of being a fallen Catholic always looms large. There’s the guilt associated with not continuing familial tradition. Both of our children were baptized Catholic, mostly to appease the grandparents. However, I made up my mind that if my children wanted to continue receiving sacraments, it was totally up to them. (One did; the other didn’t.) Both children attended Catholic schools. For me, the intrinsic value of a Catholic school education far outweighs any disadvantages. Both of my children are free thinkers, and they know why they were in Catholic school. And yes, I support the school, not only with tuition but with my time.

We do not go to church in the traditional sense. I do not feel the need to openly show myself in a church setting. I celebrate my oneness with the universe in other ways. I believe in a higher power, a supreme being, but I don’t necessarily call him/her “God.” Unlike many Catholics I know, I don’t believe it is okay to commit sins during the week, and be absolved by confession on the weekend.

I do not believe in the Bible in the literal sense. Nor do I believe that the Koran, the Torah, the Vedas or other sacred texts should be taken literally. Because of this, yes, I do not believe in the literal translations of the virgin birth, Moses’ parting of the waters, and many other things which are depicted in the Bible. I respect others who believe, but I expect them to respect my beliefs as well. There are many worthwhile lessons to be taken from any sacred script, but my own interpretation has merit, too. What difference does the nitpicking make anyway, as long as the lessons learned are helping you to become a good person?

My heart has room in it for everything and every one. I do not care if you’re red, brown, yellow or purple; I don’t care if you’re flaming gay; if you’re a good person, there’s room in my world for you. Families do not have to have a man and woman heading it to be considered a family in my world. Abortion is a legal choice for a woman, and I’m not going to tell any woman she can’t have one, no matter what I believe. There is “good” and there is “evil”, and I think we can all figure out on our own which is which.

As for the place of satire with regard to religion, it may not be politically correct, and it may seem hurtful. My thought and hope is that any of it is not meant to be mean-spirited. Religious satire has happened before and will happen again. Only those who are not strong in their own beliefs will let it hurt them. Personally, I don't see satire as an affront to me, only as another view. Like everything I view on Gather and in life, I look at that view, and then I move on.

“It is important to expect nothing, to take every experience, including the negative ones, as merely steps on the path, and to proceed.” ~Ram Dass
Expand Tags: random musings, family, religion, life, people, spirituality
Expand To Groups: Heart To Heart, Random Musings, Old Hippie's Corner, Church and State, Mideast, religion, Dogma, ideology, Post what doesn't FIT anywhere else!, Confused about which/what article to post where? Post it here!, Rantings, ravings, cribbing, whinning, cursing----do all that and more, post anything you want because you will post anything you want anyways, The Shameless Self-Promoters Group, Writing for Inner Peace
recommend this
email
print
link to this page
Paste this link into an email or IM
Bookmark this post:
Facebook
Twitter
Delicious
Buzz
More

Comments: 98

Janet H. Nov 24, 2006, 2:32pm EST
I am a Bible believing Christian and I am happy with that choice. I look forward to going to church on Sundays and also to fellowshiping with my church family. Being a Christian is a much better life than the one I had before becoming a Christian.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 24, 2006, 2:33pm EST
I'm glad for you Janet. I realize it works for many people. And I know you weren't that drive-by 1!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Janet H. Nov 24, 2006, 2:37pm EST
You're right I wasn't the drive by 1! I don't rate an article unless I can give it a 10. I happened to forget to rate yours but now I have given it a 10.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
David Rochester Nov 24, 2006, 2:38pm EST
Joanne, I found this piece to be eminently reasonable, well-considered, respectful, spiritually-grounded, and fair. I also happen to agree completely with everything you've said, but I think that even if I didn't, I would have felt the same way about it. *tipping my hat to you*
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Travis B. Nov 24, 2006, 2:40pm EST
"Only those who are not strong in their own beliefs will let it hurt them. "

AMEN!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mary H. Nov 24, 2006, 2:40pm EST
Good article Joannne, you have made some valid points. Here are my thoughts.

Are religious people the only ones held to a standard of morality? If there is a god (and I believe there is) He requires that we ALL act in love toward each other. Are those who have not yet acknowledged His existence and/or rulership in their lives exempt from the requirements He has set forth, especially if these dictates create harmony in society and between people?

I find it so interesting that there are so many who often fail to give God a second glance can with such ease quote scripture indicating how "Christians" or other religious folks are to behave or respond while they themselves give little consideration to the fact that they should be behaving in similar fashion.

We all live in a political domain (nation, city, state, town) where there are rules and regulations that apply to us as citizens. We may not agree with these rules, but we are obliged to follow them, lest we face the consequences. These rules, though loathsome to us were designed for our good and for the good of society. Peace only exists to the degree that all parties obey said rules whether they agree or not (unless of course the rules violate a higher moral authority).

There is truth! It is out there. Some believe that they have encountered it and are seeking to embrace it fully. Some have not yet sought or encountered truth. Others ignore what little truth that has been presented to them, seeking instead to belittle others and their pursuit.

If you know or are familiar with the truth should you not be living it? If you fail to realize Christ as lord of your life or God as your creator do you not recognize that in the midst of all of this religious wrangling lies the obvious command to love others and treat them as you wish to be treated.

If those who use satire to mock the beliefs of others honestly and sincerely believed that dancing in the middle of the road at 1 AM cured the hic-ups would you not desire that those around (though they may disagree with you and think you a fool) respect your right to believe as you do and not hinder you in acting in a manner consistent with your beliefs (and encourage you to watch out for cars in the process).

I am saying this: Those who publish articles with the intent to pock fun should honestly evaluate themselves and their motives. This is a practice for all people not just those who subscribe to a particular deity. Can the author of the article to which this article refers honestly say that there was no malicious intent on her part in the crafting of her article? Was it merely for "fun" or was it for "effect"?

We all owe it to self to engage in periodic (daily) evaluate ourselves and motives lest we delude ourselves into believing that we are correct, upstanding, moral and righteous and that it is the "other" who is at fault, lacking a sense of humor, attempting to ruin our fun, unrighteous, etc. We must each judge ourselves; EACH ONE of us!!!

We should each act in a way that promotes love, harmony and goodwill. To post some anything that does not instruct, but merely tears down is irresponsible, in my opinion. I believe in the right of all to speak as they wish. I also believe that we should speak as if we are standing in the presence of god (believe in him or not) and that we will be judged for every unkind word that proceeds from our mouths or that is processed in our thoughts.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Layla Morgan Wilde Nov 24, 2006, 2:40pm EST
I doubt that drive by 1 even read your whole article ! Narrow minds =narrow hearts.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Travis B. Nov 24, 2006, 2:42pm EST
"Was it merely for "fun" or was it for "effect"?"

why not both?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
☆ Æ’åitÄ¥ ☆ Nov 24, 2006, 2:43pm EST
THANK YOU for posting this! I do not choose not to go to church, or belong to organized religion either, so I appreciate you putting this all in writing. I whole heartedly feel this way as well & I will quote what you said:

"I do not believe in the Bible in the literal sense. Nor do I believe that the Koran, the Torah, the Vedas or other sacred texts should be taken literally. Because of this, yes, I do not believe in the literal translations of the virgin birth, Moses' parting of the waters, and many other things which are depicted in the Bible. I respect others who believe, but I expect them to respect my beliefs as well. There are many worthwhile lessons to be taken from any sacred script, but my own interpretation has merit, too. What difference does the nitpicking make anyway, as long as the lessons learned are helping you to become a good person? My heart has room in it for everything and every one. I do not care if you're red, brown, yellow or purple; I don't care if you're flaming gay; if you're a good person, there's room in my world for you. Families do not have to have a man and woman heading it to be considered a family in my world. Abortion is a legal choice for a woman, and I'm not going to tell any woman she can't have one, no matter what I believe. There is "good" and there is "evil", and I think we can all figure out on our own which is which."

--- For once, someone else feels the same way I do and doesn't make me feel like I'm bad, or I'll be going to hell for feeling this way. When I tell people I am not religious, and I feel that religion just separates people, they look at me and ask me if I am athiest, because they just can't understand how I can't (or don't know if I) believe in something! Feeling this way is actually OK and it doesn't mean I'm a bad person. I don't look down on people for having a religion and I would appreciate it if people wouldn't look down on me for NOT having a religion.

Thank you, again Joanne. You really just made my day.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
gil asakawa Nov 24, 2006, 2:45pm EST
Hi Joanne, ditto David's comment above.... this is a wonderfully written, thoughtful piece about faith and people's beliefs, and I salute you for posting it.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Corina Carrasco Nov 24, 2006, 2:45pm EST
Well said, Joanne. I agree with most of what you wrote. I am glad you wrote this. Thank you for directing me here.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
MrElf 1961 Nov 24, 2006, 2:47pm EST
Does not being a member of a physical congregation mean you are not religious? I think not.

Denominationalism will send you to hell just as fast as other sins, IMHO. You worship in your own way, Joanne. And you are a good person. I know this. A 10 for you from me.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mary H. Nov 24, 2006, 2:48pm EST
I think that we are missing the point here. We are not talking about church or spirituality for that matter. We are talking about how we should treat others and whether we are able to be respectful of the beliefs of others, though we may disagree.

There are many religions in the world. I do not, however; feel a need or have a desire to satire the beliefs of others, though I may not agree. I choose to live in peace with others and with my God. When others fail to do this (live in peace) it is a sign of something deeply wrong in their soul.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Donald H. Nov 24, 2006, 2:50pm EST
Contrary to what many believe I do not believe that God cares 1 way or the other whether we go to a place to worship. I think that He cares a lot more how we act & interact, treat others & generally go about the daily business of living. If you are comfortable going to church, temple, kosque, ashram or whatever...then by all means go! If you are comfortable sitting alobne in themmiddel fo the wildeness or beside a sea then do so.....it is between you God not between you & other people.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Nov 24, 2006, 2:50pm EST
Sounds to me like you are in good company. Your story reminded me, much, in your ultimate conclusions of Thomas Jefferson. If you are looking for a name, it is deist. A belief in a higher power, with a corresponding belief that no one down here knows a defining thing about him, her, or it.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jerry D. Nov 24, 2006, 2:59pm EST
A very interesting article and so true to heart that we all are human to the degree that we must respect each one to the degree that they respect us. You have written some very deep thoughts and interest within us all. I enjoyed this article so very much.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 24, 2006, 3:05pm EST
Mary, you have many valid points, but I have one question; when is "satire" (comedy, parody, etc.) okay and when is it not okay? When someone is "poking fun" at your religion? When you are poking fun at a political figure? When you are poking fun at yourself? I think what needs to be considered is in "what spirit" the satire is leveled.

Thanks Faith B & Bob B. those are the nicest things I've heard in a long time!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John L. Nov 24, 2006, 3:11pm EST
my bumper sticker reads....RELIGIOUS PEOPLE FRIGHTEN ME
SPIRITUAL PEOPLE ENLIGHTEN ME
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mugg Muggles, "The Man With the Jive" Nov 24, 2006, 3:11pm EST
Joanne-
I was raised Catholic. I finally looked carefully around and concluded that the Holy Roman Church is one of the oldest criminal conspiracies on the planet.
Lenny Bruce had a bit about Jesus returning to earth and finding himself in the slum tenements of Spanish Harlem, where he sees nothing but poverty and misery.
He then checks out the local cathedral only to find the bishop wearing a ring worth 10 grand.
Okay, that's enough pope-bashing for today.
As far as people being thin-skinned about religion-inspired satire, I'm afraid that I am of the opinion that NOTHING is so sacred that it can not be made fun of.
Also, in order for one to become annoyed by anyone or anything, one must choose to do so.
Very thoughtfully written piece. Thanks. BTW- I missed the Dame Ruth article that you say inspired this, but it certainly can stand on its own merit.
"Dominus Vobiscum" ;o)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Miz Lynn aka/BooBoo Nov 24, 2006, 3:12pm EST
Excellent article Joanne. Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." So true. One of our best friends was a member of the Catholic Church, he states, "As a child my punishment for wrong doing was to go outside in my boxer shorts in-20F weather, kneel on a rough hewn stump, and confess my sins." Consequently, my friend does NOT go to church, does not worship, does not see a God of love but rather one of "punishment". I don't blame God but rather imperfect people....
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
☆ Æ’åitÄ¥ ☆ Nov 24, 2006, 3:13pm EST
You are VERY VERY welcome! I meant every word of it. I hope you have a great weekend! Oh yeah... and of course, this is a big fat 10 from me.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 24, 2006, 3:18pm EST
Mugg, this explains a lot about you. The Church was rather mean and sadistic back when I was growing up, and I just didn't get it. I went to a service recently when my daughter had her confirmation (she wanted to). It's a total about face now, everything is touchy feely, lovey, which makes me a little apprehensive.

Yup, Lynn, and it's the "imperfect" people who run the churches.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
☃ Aunt Shanny Nov 24, 2006, 3:19pm EST
10.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Donna M. Nov 24, 2006, 3:28pm EST
From one old Catholic to another...Fantastic writing
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Faith H. Nov 24, 2006, 3:29pm EST
Joanne, your story is much like mine, although both my parents were very devout Catholics. I no longer practice but find peace and serenity in my own devotions and contemplation.
I enjoyed your fair and reasoned piece and am tickled by the even tempered thread it has generated.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mary H. Nov 24, 2006, 3:30pm EST
I believe that we should never seek to harm another, in mind, body or spirit. Therefore, I do not approve of the use of satire in any case. If there are inconsistencies of theology, politics, reasoning, etc. point them out in a spirit of love and concern Seek to be a bridge toward reconciliaton and the acknowledgement of truth.

Never seek a "laugh" at the expense of another person. This is often damaging to the psyche and just plain wrong!!!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Rushmore J. Nov 24, 2006, 3:30pm EST
Well said
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Kristina G. Nov 24, 2006, 3:33pm EST
I enjoyed the article, share your perspective, and thank you for taking the time to write this.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
William M. Nov 24, 2006, 3:34pm EST
I don't necessarily agree with every thing you said but you wrote an excellent article. 10
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Webduck * Nov 24, 2006, 3:34pm EST
In my youth, I too went to church. Several churches, actually. None with my parents, but I did go with my grandmother and some other relatives. I came away feeling that they wanted me to believe that as a young girl I was already a sinner and that because they said so, there was no hope for me. I railed against that idea though, and quit going to churches to find spiritualism. Instead, I tried to find it in myself, which worked much better for me.

My friend and I were discussing prayer recently, and how people like to pray for others. She made an interesting point which stuck with me. It was, "If someone is praying for you, what if what they are praying for isn't what YOU would want?" I don't mean good health, or stuff like that. I mean when they pray for you to do/have something THEY want.

I agreed with everything you said Joanne. Good stuff!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 24, 2006, 3:47pm EST
Maybe I'm alone, but I don't think "satire" seeks to "harm" anyone-which is my entire point. Satire may be funny, but it's basically meant to point out inconsistencies. The church and organized religion is rife with inconsistencies and hypocritical hyperbole, as is our current political system.

If there wasn't "satire," this world would be without Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn," George Orwell's "Animal Farm," the Simpsons, and Janis Joplin's "Mercedes Benz" song, The Daily Show and Saturday Night Live. And what a plain, sad world that would be.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Cheryl C. Nov 24, 2006, 3:53pm EST
Well articulated essay about freedom of choice and the common sense we should all use when we infer an author's intentions. It would be good for many to read Jonathan Swift's paradies and satires. It drove the Irish crazy, but he is buried in Dublin's St. Patrick's Cathedral.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dannielle S. Nov 24, 2006, 3:56pm EST
Joanne, the applause you hear is mine. Well and bravely said, my friend.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Kevin Weeks Nov 24, 2006, 3:58pm EST
Joanne,
Well done.

Mary,
"Never seek a "laugh" at the expense of another person."

Humor is always at someone's expense.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mary H. Nov 24, 2006, 4:05pm EST
Not true Kevin, there is humor that does not destroy the psyche of others!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Serina Matteson Nov 24, 2006, 4:14pm EST
Joanne, I skipped over the comments here and apologize. This was an excellent article. Now I know why I feel so drawn to you. I love your open mind, your sense of humor, hell everything about you. As for myself, I was not raised in a religious family at all. We visited the Methodist church ever so often. Now, though, in my later years I have come to know a higher power that I do choose to call God. I still have a long way to go though to be the kind of christian I think I should be. I just know that during my times of illness that the most peace I ever am capable of feeling is when I feel I am closest to God. But I do respect the choice of everyone in the right to believe as they wish. I am so ignorant of religion, still thirst to learn more about my higher power I choose to call God, that I would not dare speak against anyone else of their beliefs. I have no right. I too read the article and it did make a "new" christian ponder much but then I discarded it to the side and I continue on as I believed before. I did not rate or comment. Thanks for this article. I enjoyed it very much.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 24, 2006, 4:18pm EST
Mary, if someone is seeking to satirize you (or whomever) out of maliciousness, that isn't humor. It's called MEANNESS. And when would "humor" destroy anyone's psyche? If you're that weak willed, I guess anything would destroy you. And I agree with Kevin; humor is always at someone's expense. Take a look around.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 24, 2006, 4:20pm EST
Thank you, Serina. Respect is a two-sided street.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
LittleMissSunshine - Shel & Barney Rule L. Nov 24, 2006, 4:22pm EST
I like church. I wouldn't drive by 1. I think if I give someone a 1 they are entitled to why they got it. I confess sometimes I'm lazy and don't rate, but I usually try to.

I also believe that those with beliefs different than mine are fully capable of making good posts and good arguements. If we all believed the same we'd only need one person to do all the talking. I've had my own issues with church. I choose to attend. That's my choice and those who don't choose to attend well that is their choice.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Doc, in the middle, holding on... Curmudgeon esq. Nov 24, 2006, 4:22pm EST
"My heart has room in it for everything and every one."

what more need be commented on???
you are a good person, mythology (and political mythology at THAT!) is not the be-all or end-all of existence.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Leigh V. Nov 24, 2006, 4:23pm EST
Thanks for sharing this article. I am in agreement with you. I am shocked about the church charging $3,000 for an anullment!!!! That sounds like a scam to me. I usually don't get involved with discussions about politics or religion. I say whatever works for you is fine with me as long as it's not hurting anyone. Aren't we supposed to love everyone and judge each other.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Ronald H. Nov 24, 2006, 4:44pm EST
Joanne:

Very revealing article about yourself. I would encourage you to carefully evaluate many of the beliefs and doctrines (including the Bible) from a completely objective viewpoint. I realize that when we are hurt by persons in a religious authority position, we tend to want to avoid them (rightfully so), but please try to avoid the common error of dumping out the baby with the bath water.

I see much truth in the Bible and many writings by several key Catholic doctors of the church. I myself am not Catholic (although I grew up Catholic), but I have been able to reject the behavior and false beliefs of many Catholic leaders (such as the ones described in your article) while being able to retain the Universal truths and wisdom as expounded upon by many people who happen to be Catholic.

Additionally, the Bible is filled with God's wisdom and is incredibly encouraging in an otherwise dark world. I agree that many things in the Bible should not be taken literally and should be placed in their proper historical and spiritual context - and I agree that many Christian church doctrines fail to do this - but that does not deny the fact that the Bible is a treasure trove of words directly from God (through men willing to write them down for us).

There are many inconsistencies in the Bible and there is certainly a Hebraic agenda flowing throughout the Old Testament (as well as a Christian agenda present in the New Testament), but there are also words of truth that are living in both the Old & New Testaments. God is speaking to us constantly and the Bible contains many of his words - if you have not read it in a while, I would advise the books of James, John, the 3 Epistles of John, Psalms - if you read these books with an open mind you will see the wisdom of God in them. I agree with you wholeheartedly that many of the people you have described in your article clearly were not showing you the love of Christ and were blinded by their false religious practices which have evolved since the days of Jesus, but continue to seek & find God - his truth is out there - don't let some bad people ruin your pursuit of truth.

If you have not read it, I would strongly encourage you to read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" - its great satire about Christians written by a devout Christian and is not offensive at all (except to those hard core fundamentalists who wear the darkest of glasses during their daily walk).

Be encouraged.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mary H. Nov 24, 2006, 4:45pm EST
Why is it that it seems I speak and I am misunderstood? It is my plight I guess!

I am not destroyed by "meanness" to myself. I am distressed over "meanness" to others! Can I actually be my brother's keeper?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 24, 2006, 4:53pm EST
Leigh V., I think $3,000 was probably a good price for an annulment, and this was in 1982. If you remember, Senator Ted Kennedy received one, so he could marry his current wife. He obviously has more money than I have. The whole issue of annulments is kind of a mystery to me. You can get one, even after having children. What does that make your children after you receive one? Bastards in the eyes of the Church? The irony is lost on me. Why can't the Catholic Church accept a divorce, if everyone else can?

Mary, I am still not convinced that the article you're referring to was written in "meanness" to either yourself or to others.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
c.l.m. 180Ëš Nov 24, 2006, 5:22pm EST
isn't true religion

suppose to be about taking care of our neighbors like we want to be taken care of, helping the widows (those who can't help themselves), and taking our pointing finger out of everyone elses nose ... ????
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
c.l.m. 180Ëš Nov 24, 2006, 5:23pm EST
oops ... i forgot to add ...
easier said than done!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Abe Zuit Nov 24, 2006, 5:23pm EST
Joanne, as a fellow fallen Catholic let me just say we're both in a good place.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sonia M. Nov 24, 2006, 5:27pm EST
I grew up in the Methodist church and attended both a Methodist and a Presbyterian school. I married a Catholic the first time and did not convert. My son was christened a Catholic, also to appease his parents, but I have brought him up to think for himself and choose what he thought was best for him.

After many years of being a faithful church attendant and follower, and after some events in the church in which I am still a member, I have decided that I will choose the way I believe and worship. I do not feel under obligation to attend weekly services and attend special services and funerals of people I know.

A particular hipocritical event turned me completely off from atending weekly services.

I truly believe I can worship and honor God by practicing honesty and integrity in my daily life and relations to others.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mugg Muggles, "The Man With the Jive" Nov 24, 2006, 5:42pm EST
Interesting point raised about the 'legitimacy' status of a child born to an annulled marriage. I'm not sure that the Vatican has given it much thought. They're too busy counting the money. LOL
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 24, 2006, 5:48pm EST
Joanne, our histories and our beliefs are much alike.

I agree with the statement: "Only those who are not strong in their own beliefs will let it hurt them. " but would qualify it by adding "to the point they think they must 'save' others in order to validate their own beliefs."
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Nov 24, 2006, 6:05pm EST
Joanne,

I agree most wholeheartedly with your statement:

What I don't like to see, either here or anywhere else, is the sort of "lynch mob" mentality that takes over when a person or group feels threatened

What puzzles me is your apparent acceptance of such a "lynch mob" forming around people associated by some label with those which you have experienced difficulties. Are not all such "parties" based on something akin to that sort of generalizing?

I am a Christian. I have no control over what others choose to call themselves or choose to do. I did not accept any history or label as my Savior, I merely accepted Christ. To deny what I found to be a powerful and rational basis for that acceptance, for fear some would play labeling games, and associate me with people I had never met, and events over which I have no control, would (to me) be cowardice of a most shameful kind.

The article and thread which apparently lead you to write this one was clearly a "lynch mob" when I arrived. I attempted to "break up" that mob, and get folks to see their irrational behaviour in association with it. I have in the past attempted the very same thing in "Christian" lynch mob situations. So I ask quite bluntly:

Are you advocating treating people that choose to accept the label Christian as valid targets for "lynching"?

If not (as I assume), I would dearly love SOMEONE, ANYONE, to point out the place where the author of that article, or any of it's major applauders, made any statement that they were not intending to malign Christians? They were given numerous opportunities to say they were not, and failed to avail themselves. Indeed they responded to such opportunities by further insults and accusations.

It was a "lynch mob". Calling those that took exception to it's malicious agenda a lynch mob is simply denial.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Kathryn E. Nov 24, 2006, 6:25pm EST
Excellent article, Joanne. Since I come from a religious hotbed, myself, that of SLC and 100 years of polygamy, I shunned all religion, until I continually found myself praying in Cathedrals. Eventually, I converted to Roman Catholicism, but I did so with the Paulist Fathers, SJC. I thought I could be a Catholic in my own way and choose to disagree with whatever I disagreed with. This is mostly true, as nobody really knows what I think because I'm not fool enough to tell them at Mass. But the recent priest abuse scandal here in Mass forced me to withdraw from my local Parish Choir, I just couldn't take the hypocrisy and the fact that a lot of people really believed in all of this...Literarlly...
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dame Ruth, Chief Executive Elitist D. Nov 24, 2006, 7:05pm EST
Okay... FOR THE LAST TIME!! My article was SATIRE, which according to most dictionaries means "the use of irony or wit to expose abuses, follies, customs, etc." Nowhere is it defined as "malicious" or "mean", nor was it my intent to mock the entire Christian population, as many of you seem to have inferred. It was based on a factoid (the definition of a Greek word) that led me to a flight of fancy concerning one of the more far-fetched stories in the religious mythos. It's too bad that Mary doesn't "approve" (her word, not mine) of a non-traditionall look at a ludicrous fable, despite the fact that it evoked laughter in most of those who read it. Hopefully, someone will be kind enough to give Mary a sense of humor for Christmas.
Joanne: I know YOU understand where I'm coming from, as I do you. I gave 10's to both this article and the one that inspired my "gang-pray" comment and its subsequent expansion. I've never made a secret of my opinion of organized religion, but I have no quarrel with those who choose to believe whichever anthology of stories they prefer. I say, "if it makes you happy and gives you peace of mind, believe anything you like, as long as I'm allowed the same privilege." This is an intelligent, well-reasoned piece and I appreciate your having written it.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Madame Donna C. Nov 24, 2006, 7:28pm EST
Joanne, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this piece. Thank you.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Kevin Weeks Nov 24, 2006, 7:29pm EST
Mary,
"there is humor that does not destroy the psyche of others!"

I didn't say that all humor "destroy[s] the psyches of others."

Nevertheless, I'd like an example of something humorous that isn't at someone's expense.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
David Rochester Nov 24, 2006, 8:24pm EST
I mean when they pray for you to do/have something THEY want.

Webduck, I really appreciated this point. Personally I do not think it is appropriate to pray for someone else except in the most general terms . . . perhaps only to ask that the person being prayed for be granted grace and courage. It amazes me when people pray for very specific things in regard to other people . . . how on earth can we know what's best for someone else? I don't even pretend to know what's best for me . I'd rather leave those decisions to the wisdom of the benevolent force in the Universe, which is lots smarter than I am.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Nathan Schauer Nov 24, 2006, 8:51pm EST
Buddhism is my choice. Buddhism doesn't have a God - buddhism teaches a path to enlightenment - thus you can be a Buddhist and be a Jew, Christian, or whatever you like.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Ronald H. Nov 24, 2006, 8:56pm EST
Joanne/Karen/Ruth:

Consider the possibility that Jesus is in fact God and that perhaps Mary H. (like some of the rest of us) has an ongoing close personal relationship with Jesus. Jesus is her friend.

Now if you (at least for the sake of my point) imagine that Jesus is a living spiritual being and close personal friend of Mary H. - then why would it seem "extreme" if Mary H. was offended when Ruth's article poked fun and him and his earthly mother in a crude manner.

If I posted a similiar article about any one of you and your mother (or someone else who was very dear to you) wouldn't your close friends probably be bothered by this - even if you could "take it" - the sign of a close friend is to empathize and care deeply for the person whose friendship you cherise.

I know you may not feel the same way about Jesus (or even his earthly mother Mary) as many Christians do, but you should be able to relate to how one would feel if someone wrote something extremely unflattering about your friend.

I know that when I was merely speculating about Ruth's motives for writing the article or when I was giving my opinion that the article has an erroneous premise (which Ruth later recanted about and changed the article by removing the reference to its premise as a fact), several of Ruth's "friends" spoke up to defend her. Why would it be surprising that some people would actually speak up in defense of their close personal friend (who is also defined as "love itself")?

Can't you see... have your hearts been hardened to the degree that you can't distinguish between kindness and cruelty?

I would encourage you all to step out of your own skin (or box) and re-read the article from the viewpoint that Jesus is actually a friend of yours. From this vantage-point, it should be very clear that the article would be offensive to a friend of Jesus. The article not only mocks him, his mother, but anyone who would belive that the God of the universe could cause a willing virgin to give birth to the Son of God.

If anyone can't at least see why that article would be offensive to some (and understand that why), then you truly cannot relate and must be characterized as "close-minded" and completely incapable of objective observation.

I'm sorry if these words dig deep into anyone's personality, but it is what it is.

Go back and re-read Ruth's article, but put the name of your closest friend in place of Jesus and see how it makes you feel.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Nov 24, 2006, 8:58pm EST
Lynch mobbing happens. There is an allure in taking an opportunity to "throw a stone" at a stoning of someone or something we are threatened by. One might cast an insult in a moment of apparent anonymity, at an apparently defenseless target. We all know this, and have probably at some point in our lives indulged the temptation.

What is being here discussed, indirectly, is whether the article in question, and the subsequent comment string, was one such occurrence. OR, was the entry into that thread by those that questioned it's nature an example of lynch mobbing?

Squirm as many have, and will, the article and thread bear witness to the truth. All the hallmarks are there: The generalizing, the poor reasoning, the vicious responses to questioning and calls for moderation.

If these things are what you consider part of a good time, you are casting a vote in the struggle of civilization. You may wish to believe you're not. You may wish to attack those that are aware of the struggle, or your vote. You may even attempt a lynching of such people.

But if in the future, you ever try to speak up against any person unfairly ridiculing or undermining any person based on some happenstance of association by Faith, or race, or heritage, or custom, or nationality: there will be a small voice that you will need to stifle. And your words will ring hollow.

I want my words to ring true and clear. What do you want?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Ronald H. Nov 24, 2006, 9:21pm EST
Great point John. I want my words to ring true as well.

I welcome a open reasoned discussion about significant events in history (like the virgin birth of Christ) - with persons of varying opinions participating without getting personal or trying to negatively over-generalize and categorize all persons of a particular faith (such as Christianity).

I agree with you that it does seem strange that the lynch mob response seemed to be coming from the anti-Christian crowd toward the Christians - it was somewhat reminiscent of the 1st Century attacks upon Christians by Jewish officials - they didn't like what the Christians were saying so they picked up their stones and there was poor Stephan.

One would expect (after 2,000 years of periodic acts of cruelty falsely in the name of Christ) that it might have been the other way around, but now its the non-Christians who are acting like a lynch mob - trying to have their own little separatist party and hatefully responding to the presence of persons who don't entirely believe what they believe.

By the way...I know the topic of discussion has gotten off task, but I actually really enjoyed Joanne's article. I empathized with her plight at the hands of certain fundamentalist religious leaders and a system that does not appear to reason. I also applaud Joanne for not going on a tirade against Christianity in her article (unlike some other recent articles) - I think its Joanne's type of article that can draw people together for a common cause - to feel her pain, sympathize and examine our own spiritual walk to make sure that we are not supporting a religious system that disagrees with the teachings of Jesus.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Nov 24, 2006, 9:32pm EST
Joanne,

It is an excellent article, in my opinion.
I will surely be reading more of your work.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Michelle R. Nov 24, 2006, 10:44pm EST
What a beautiful article. You obviously spoke for many hearts, including mine, and you did it magnificently. Thank you.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Amber Fire Nov 24, 2006, 11:51pm EST
"I first learned – from my teachers – that the Bible was translated many times over the last 1,900 years, and that many of the translations were changed for political reasons, or translated "incorrectly" because of language differences"

This is so true however I learned it during my training as a minister. The flip side is if you get yourself a Concordance you can actually translate the scriptures to their true meaning. This was quite the eye opening experience for me.


"In the midst of taking these classes, I found I truly loathed my fiancé; we broke up, thus saving me the expense of $3,000 to erase my first marriage in the eyes of God."

This was priceless Joanne I laughed till I cried. Thank you I was beginning to think you would deprive me of your quick wit, so glad to not be disappointed.


I too gave up "organized religion" years ago it just does not suit what I believe the Divine to be. I have my own path and I walk it with conviction and my beliefs are secure. This is probably why comments directed at how I believe do not make me feel the need to respond. It is a good policy you have to read the view, accept that persons view, and move on.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Quinn (aka Entwife) Blackburn Nov 25, 2006, 1:52am EST
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle

Wishing You Laughter
..
U
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Mark who can't get enough sunflowers P. Nov 25, 2006, 2:07am EST
Excellent article. I agree whole heartedly that there is too much "standing on doctrine" in religion. Although I try to walk with Christ, I find it difficult to fathom that all the other religions in this world are without merit or sanction from whatever/whoever created us. Tolerance is apparently NOT something that many religions are able to embrace.

I just try in my own small way to teach this without causing offense. Not always an easy thing to do.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dolphi D. Nov 25, 2006, 4:20am EST
Joanne, thank you very much for inviting me to join this discussion.

First of all, you made a powerful statement: Words cannot hurt us unless we allow them to. On the other hand, humans as we are, words either spoken or written affect us powerfully. The ignition points for most of the clashes, outbreaks and wars have been words. Words have been instrumental in bringing about great social changes or chaos. The words in the world's literature are largely directed towards a person's emotions rather towards logical thinking.

Secondly, your journey through life is a interesting case in point. Every new born child starts this journey with some inseverable baggage like parentage, sex, race, color, physical features, mental traits etc. Later on the child learns from experience that this inalienable baggage that it carries has to cope with society's own baggage of prejudices, innuendoes, insinuations etc. Further on, more complications are involuntarily added to the baggage by way of culture, creed, nationality and so many other affiliations. A part of this add-on baggage sometimes gets changed or modified due to one's individual experiences and observations. Some balance is somehow found; extreme opinions are usually formed out of extreme experiences and extreme instability. Rarely people take time to examine each and every tenet on which they base their life. The rest, however, carry on with their baggage with great conviction, love and fondness, albeit its acquisition is to a great extent incidental to the place, the time and the condition of their arrival into this world.

A person may not like his/her name mostly acquired as an infant. If someone makes fun of that queer name derogatively and willfully, it hurts. Even if the name is misspelt or mispronounced because of ignorance or negligence, it hurts. Some people also get agitated if their language, arduously cultivated through years of schooling, is cavalierly used by others. What baffles me is that the same people do not think twice when they attack others' deeper rooted beliefs in the same cavalier fashion. The argument they offer for this is the freedom of speech.

The freedom of speech is very dear to us because of the constant repression of it by the political and religious powers throughout the course of history. We have become almost paranoid that unless we have the unbridled freedom of speech, the abuses that the history witnessed might recur. We fail to realize the responsibilities that are contingent to the freedom of speech. I am afraid that these zealots who want to demonstrate their freedom of speech in a perverse manner are the ones who really undermine it.

There is much to speak on this, but suffice this much.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Rick McGirr Nov 25, 2006, 5:03am EST
And then there's the happy atheist - me. I choose to walk in wonder at what little I know, which leads me to observe that the vast universe is great, and I can predict that by the time I die, I will still know precious little. I have chosen as my spiritual filter the scientific method. That which is able to be observed, compared, tested is the basis for my worldview. I try my best not to jump to any conclusions. There must be a preponderance of evidence for me to accept that something is actual. Since there is no evidence for the existence of any supernatural being, I choose to assume for the present that there is none. I am always willing to consider new evidence and willingly change my position on any subject, from the sum of 2+2 to the existence of ghosts. Experience leads me to project that I will not see any evidence that will lift my burden of skepticism. But I don't feel any less wonder at the nature of the universe, and I go through each day feeling fortunate for all I have. I try to treat others well, abide by the law, pay my taxes, etc. For all intents and purposes, I don't sin much. But nor do I care much about any personal view that differs with mine. I will hold your views and mine to the same light of reason and inquiry, and whichever can be observed to be more mindful of the evidence is the one I will prefer. But I believe that, despite our differences, we have much more in common, and it only makes plain sense for us to work out our problems as if we only had one planet to live on, because we do.

For this reason, I do not object to anything anyone says, about me, my beliefs, or whatever. Mock me, praise me, make fun of me, it just doesn't phase me. Do a stinging satire of my most profound beliefs, and I will at least try to see the humor in your words, and the silliness you see in my position. I am not so righteous that I am above comment, nor am I so proud that I will not listen, and I'm not too stuck up to laugh at myself. Matter of fact, I've pulled some of my worst jokes on myself!

It's really funny how people tend to go on and on when you get them talking about their beliefs, myself included. There I go again. Thanks for sparking my interest, Joanne.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy*~temporarily MIA ~* O. Nov 25, 2006, 8:00am EST
I do not go to church. I do trust in a higher power, whatever it may be. Spirituality is in my soul, religion is not. Religions are rules of man, same as a government. Spirituality consists of rules within me, that my morals, values and belief system follow. No where do my rules say to discriminate against my fellow man. No where do my rules say its ok to molest children. No where in my rules does it say that I have the right to say what is best for another humans body and soul, or choices in life. My list of 'no where's' could go on and on...
I believe my God looks at the choices I have made and the effort I have put forth. My ability to know right from wrong. Moral from immoral. Plain and simple.
I agree whole heartedly with everything that you said. (and then some!) I also agree with Mugg...Laughter helps, poking fun makes you explore the reasons that made you feel the need to do so in the first place. I also think the world is too tightly wound. People take offense at something others find humor in, when offense wasn't even the intent at all. People's lives would be a lot less stressful if they would only step back, take a look around, and let themselves laugh at what they see. Just like those around them are already doing. The world needs to stop seeing humor as judgment. They are different. Just cause I am laughing at something doesn't mean I find it bad, offensive, or disturbing, or any other negative adjective...It means I simply find it FUNNY. It truly is a humorous world we live in. (and I find the most humor, in the people in it.)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy*~temporarily MIA ~* O. Nov 25, 2006, 8:03am EST
*Wendy World Disclaimer*
The above comments are my opinions only. I am not going to debate those who don't agree. I'm telling you upfront, that you do not have too. That's the beauty of opinions, we are all entitled to our own...
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
donna f. Nov 25, 2006, 8:47am EST
Joanne,
Give me a good ole "fallen" Catholic , like yourself, anyday over the self righteous
hypocrits who take the dogma, any of it, literally, anyday. I worked closely with nuns for 21 years, and believe me, in all those years I have met only 2 that meet the criteria of what I believe a nun should be. That being a person devoted to helping her fellow man, loving unconditionally and willing to work for a better world. The same goes with priests. I applaud this article, although I woefully admit, I missed Dame Ruth's piece., which is soon to be rectified.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 25, 2006, 9:04am EST
First of all, I cannot believe all the wonderful comments written while I went to bed! I read every one with interest, openness, and I appreciate all of them, because they're all well-conceived. Every comment here deserves to be an article! Thank you, especially, Dolphi, Rick, John Knight and Ronald H.

On the subject of lynch-mobbing: the stone throwing usually goes both ways and I don't condone any of it, for any reason. Each and every rock thrower is WRONG. When I see an article here that causes so much vitriol, I read it and the comments, and I walk away. I simply refuse to participate, and that's a good rule of thumb to use. If an issue is so close to you that your emotions are stirred to that extent, WALK AWAY. Why put down in words what you are thinking in the heat of the moment? Fear and anger will make you say things you probably don't mean. Put your energy into writing something thoughtful and post that.

I know the comments here have turned into anti-Christian/Christian, but people, use your heads. We're doing this same thing to the Muslim world, as they are doing to us. Maybe this is wishing for a utopia that will never exist, but when are we all going to get along?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 25, 2006, 10:42am EST
Dee Dub, you have a point. Unfortunately, human kind is more likely to kill each other.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
amanda w. Nov 25, 2006, 11:53am EST
I missed the arguement and decided to pass. I was raised a devout atheist but chose to follow my own spiritual path. I believe organized religion\s are manipulated to suit political and monetary purposes and have caused many a war. As for being offended by satire, deal with it. There's satire about things I believe in all the time...some I find amusing. It doesn't negate their beliefs if they're true to form. Thanks for the insightful article.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Cheri D. Nov 25, 2006, 12:05pm EST
"It is important to expect nothing, to take every experience, including the negative ones, as merely steps on the path, and to proceed." ~Ram Dass


Good article, Joanne! Ahhh....just more "Grist For the Mill", isn't it? ;)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Edward Nudelman Nov 25, 2006, 12:08pm EST
To Devil Woman....

Of all the comments I've read on this issue and others like it, yours stands out as the most vile and beyond belief. You have indeed shown yourself true to your screen name.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jill B. Nov 25, 2006, 12:22pm EST
Wonderful! 10+
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
June M Nov 25, 2006, 2:06pm EST
Joanne, I think the satire of which you refer was intentionally written to start another Gather War. You, as well as I, know who this small group is that kisses each other's tushes, and gives them slaps on the back. They enjoy seeing others pick up swords and go after each other.

If I misunderstood your article, I am sorry. You have always been a kind friend to me and I don't know of you intentionally hurting anyone. I am sure the original article was probably meant for that small group, but since it made it into the open spaces of Gather, it offended many people of all faiths, religions and beliefs. It was a vile attempt to make Mary appear to be the village slut. It also took the Godhead away from Jesus.

Everyone has the right to their own beliefs but what is the point of making fun of something that our very country was founded on and the majority still believe in? This senseless article only points out why Americans keep losing respect in other countries. (I am not referring to your article, Joanne.)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Nov 25, 2006, 3:44pm EST
Joanne,

"I know the comments here have turned into anti-Christian/Christian"

This is utterly deceptive, and frighteningly simplistic.


If a woman is being raped by Phil, and Greg tries to stop him, is that fairly characterized by 'Phil/Greg' . . ?

To say this is a battle between anti-Christians and Christians is wrong.

Anti-Christians either were or were not 'mobbing' Christianity. If they were, attempts to get them to see the destructiveness of that behaviour is not fighting them. It's an attempt to free them. Go read the thread, I was the one that did this first (other than Parke, who was ridiculed and accosted simply for asking a question as a non-Christian), and what I did was not violent. I was not trying to harm or impose my beliefs on those participating in that 'mobbing'.

I was trying to get them out of a "lynch mob" mentality. This is not a form of "fighting". There was no fight. There was a "lynch mob" broken up. If you are against lynch mobs, why are you equating the mob with those they were mobbing?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Just A. G. Nov 25, 2006, 8:12pm EST
Great article.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jackie C. Nov 25, 2006, 9:47pm EST
Very good. Great points. I've always believed in the saying: "Deeds not words" as a way of living my faith.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~JOY ~bringing it 2 every1 she knows ;-) H. Nov 26, 2006, 1:07am EST
My heart has room in it for everything and every one. I do not care if you're red, brown, yellow or purple; I don't care if you're flaming gay; if you're a good person, there's room in my world for you. Families do not have to have a man and woman heading it to be considered a family in my world. Abortion is a legal choice for a woman, and I'm not going to tell any woman she can't have one, no matter what I believe. There is "good" and there is "evil", and I think we can all figure out on our own which is which.>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you for taking the time to post on your fresh perspective. I go to church, but don't feel like I have too. I agree with almost everything you have said here.
Thanks also for putting it all out there.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
♯ ♪ Nov 26, 2006, 9:29am EST
FoxyLady, I understand completely what you are saying. People who are deeply devout would do anything to protect that which they believe. Sounds like a recurring theme here...

John Knight, the only thing I have to say about the entire incident of the "other" article is that I never accused anyone in particular of mobbing the author or anyone else who was there in her defense. My stance on Gather is to write what is in my own heart as clearly as I can, and to stay out of any fights altogether. It's NOT just Christians/non or anti-Christians, and I'm sorry if I simplified that a little too much. I've witnessed other people and other articles about other issues get mobbed as well, and it's not "right" in my heart. It actually PAINS me to read such posts and comments, and I will not participate.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Nov 26, 2006, 4:27pm EST
Joanne,

You invited me here with these words:

I wrote this article as sort of a response to the flack that Dame Ruth Dickson received for her article. It has already gotten a drive by 1!

I don't care if you agree with me, but I invite you to read it.


When I arrived I read these words:

What I don't like to see, either here or anywhere else, is the sort of "lynch mob" mentality that takes over when a person or group feels threatened.

I too have a heart. I too feel pain. You chose to accuse a group of people of behaving as a "lynch mob". That you did not choose to name names is not what I'm addressing here. I am quite sincerely seeking to question your accusation as a whole.

There were no condemnations of anyone for not believing in Christ. There were no accusations that those that do not believe in Christ are responsible for mass slaughter or persecution. There was no ridicule of people for not believing in Christ, or the reasons they might base that choice on. Christians did not give "flack" to non-Christians.

There were numerous condemnations of those that believe in Christ. There were accusations that those who believe in Christ are responsible for mass slaughter and persecution. There was much ridicule of those that believe in Christ and the reasons the might base that choice on. People were giving "flack" to Christians.

That some took exception to the logic being used in those attacks, and questioned the clearly stated claims of "factuality" about what were obviously personal opinions, does not constitute a "mobbing". Any notion that Dame Ruth, or the many persons providing encouragement and further disparaging remarks were simply having a bit of fun is ludicrous.

Had they been performing a similar display of malicious ridicule toward any number of other groups, there would have been a great outcry of bigotry and senseless verbal abuse. Would you be accusing those that spoke up about such behaviour a "mob" if the target of ridicule were blacks, or Jews, or women, or Muslims, or any number of other groups of people?

Why is it wrong to question defamation of Christians, but honorable to question defamation of others? Could it be that people are blinded by their own prejudices, and are not really opposed to "lynch mobs" in general, but merely those that lynch people for whom they happen to feel sympathy?

I oppose ALL "lynching". I see no other reasonable position for a follower of Christ to take. Accusing those that attempt to call attention to a lynch mob's irrational revelry, of themselves being a lynch mob, whether or not they happen to be a member of the "target" currently being maligned, is not a matter I take lightly. For I too have a heart, and I too feel pain. And I will speak the truth without fear.

When the time comes that maligning others for sport is considered jolly good fun so long as the object of ridicule is something we do not personally care for, our decent into hell will be inevitable.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Carolion Grailbear Nov 26, 2006, 5:10pm EST
Religion is a green and growing Tree
a multifaceted spiritualiTree
a streaming cloud-sunrise/sunset
a place inside the heart
which has mandala-rose stained glass window eyes.

Good article, J!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lori (Dr Devience) Leidig Nov 26, 2006, 5:41pm EST
Just one point (or maybe two...)

Respect is not a given. It is earned. Joan has earned mine. Self-proclaimed christians must do that on an individual basis. One of my many issues with 'christians' is that they seem to think that this status elevates them above all others. It does not.

One of my other issues is that when a generic 'christian' is used, there are those who want to assume that means 'all' when it usually does not. If you decide to take an article personal, sarcastic or not, then that is your choice and I have to sit back and grin at you all over the place... there must be a reason you decided it applied to you. no? (and just for clarification, this was put out there in general, not directed at Joan)

If you demand respect of your religion, then you must by all rules of logic respect those of us who find religion to be hilarious (in a very scary kinda way.) If satire makes you feel threatened, well, tough.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lori (Dr Devience) Leidig Nov 26, 2006, 5:47pm EST
And while I'm at it, Mary, having one's delicate psyche bruised is a personal choice. I would tend to think that if your God does exist, he must surely have a keen sense of humor... and he would certainly be able to take care of himself. When people take exception to (and choose to let themselves be harmed by) silly fun satire... or even direct attacks on religion... I have to ask why. Why do people let it bother them personaly if I think religion is fun to ridicule? As someone said here or elswhere, only those weak in their own beliefs would give it two seconds pause. Anyone strong in thier belief would grin and move on, I should think. Why else feel the need to go in and defend yourself? Are we really that big of a threat to you? Do you really care so incredibly much what us heathens think?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lori (Dr Devience) Leidig Nov 26, 2006, 5:49pm EST
Gads. My apologies to Joanne for calling her Joan... it is morning here and I've not yet had sufficient cofffffeeeeee
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Nov 27, 2006, 1:00am EST
Well, speak of the devil !

(I'm using 'devil' in a generic sense,
all devils need not take offense)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jock A. Nov 27, 2006, 11:01pm EST
Joanne, I appreciate your thoughts and I agree with much of it. I also agree with the many comments on the problems with organized religion and the idea that going to church does not make one a Christian.

I have, however, found a church that is non-judgemental, doesn't pretend to have all the answers, and focuses on Christian living, not doctrine. This church and the people in it have become the focal point of my social and spiritual life, and I almost always leave the church service feeling better than when I came.

It's too bad that so many churches are so destructive to a person's spirit. Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Janet Somewhere Up On The Mount Nov 29, 2006, 8:17am EST
I am just now reading this.
A drive by one???????
Plezzzzzzzzzzzz
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy S. Dec 2, 2006, 10:17pm EST