What do you think of feminists?

Women who think feminists are evil shouldn't be allowed to vote.

I don't think feminists are evil, but I think that there are inherent differences between the two genders that become ignored and forgotten in some of the tirades. Women ARE physically not as strong as men. They lack the same upper body strength, and their frames are actually physically different. Women also have more connections active between both hemispheres of the brain. That's because testosterone actually degrades those connections, and as male children mature, less and less of them exist. This is what allows women to multi-task more efficiently.

I believe that chivalry is mostly gone because of feminism. Men raised to take care of women, treat them with respect and honor, have had women step in front of them to open doors themselves, etc., etc. There is nothing wrong with being treated with a little extra respect and care. It's a good thing.

Being allowed to have rights that any human being should have... that's a good thing. Driving men into the dirt, name-calling and not embracing the wonderful things that MAKE us women... that's a bad thing.

Oh good, a chance to tell my bus driver story. In the 1950s I rode a New York City bus to elementary school. There was a woman bus driver on the route. This was remarkable, so I remarked on it to my mother who explained that she had probably gotten the jub during the war.

At that time I knew of no women lawyers, doctors, in fact the only working women I knew were secretaries, teachers, and nurses. Not that there were no women doctors, for example, but they were the exception that proves the rule.

This was the situation before the most recent wave of feminism. I don't think anyone today, certainly no woman today, claims it was a good way for things to be. But few understand the debt they owe to feminists of my generation for how much things have changed.

Some feminists are evil . . . some are not. Some are cute little cupcakes that should be fixing me a turkey pot pie! LoL! Ok . . . just kidding about the last part. :)
Seriously - if you paint with a brush that broad you'll have a huge variety of people from all walks of life included.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

The feminist movement, like many things is very necessary. Unfortunately, like many things, has also gone beyond its good intentions. What started as a way to keep factory owners and big business from mistreating employees, the union, in some cases, has gone a long way to over stepping its bounds and bringing some companies to ruin asking for TOO MUCH. Some of the feminist movement is the same way, making them all look bad to some. Men and Women are not the same, and we should celebrate our differences. What is wrong with being treated like a lady. It would be different in a work environment, if a woman was expecting the same pay for less work. Equal pay for equal work is a different issue. I prefer to be treated as a partner. Yes, I like it when he opens a door for me, and takes care of certain things. I like taking care of things too. I am more emotional and that is who I AM it is part of being a woman.

nice article

If I go the rest of my life without hearing one more person talk about feminism as if it has, or ever had, anything to do with manners or chivalry, I'd die happy. You're supposed to be polite to EVERYBODY. I have held doors open for old men and small children and had the same politeness expressed to me. I realize it's just the product of brainwashing people into making them think an important issue is really a trivial one, but that point comes up every time someone says the word feminism and it's about as relevant to the subject as a discussion of ring tones. Feminism means women are given the same opportunities as men, including earning the same wage, being able to apply for the same jobs, being granted the same personal rights by law, and being given the same freedom to live our lives however we want. It's never had anything to do with doors or chairs or "ma'am" and it never will, however its opponents might try to belittle it. If you work, you are a feminist. If you vote, you are a feminist. If you think your body belongs to you and you're sovereign of any decisions about it, you're a feminist. Every woman, especially in the land of the free, should be proud of the term: someone's hard work bought you these rights.

I agree with both Lisa's. I like being treated like a lady. I crave being cherished.
But if I were in the workplace, doing the same jobs with the same responsibilites, I would expect the same pay and respect.

Soemthing else I would like to mention here. One of the things I dont like about feminist movement...(and this of course of just my opinion)
The longer it goes on and the further it goes....the weaker some men are becoming.
It does seem to be blurring the lines, or at least the edges.......t

Doyle is BAAAD...just kidding. I think everyone is equal and should be treated that way.

I agree that manners is for everybody all the time. And everybody wants to feel cherished, men and women! I've never heard a feminist claim there was no difference between men and women. I used to know lots of lesbian feminists - they were very festive - lots of laughs!

Australia's most famous feminist and activist for a myriad of causes, is Germaine Greer. I think she all but impended the true image of the Feminist with her radical approach, she initiated the burn the bra movement, amongst other things and tried to write about a lot of things she had very little idea about, She single handily caused more saggy boobs in a generation than any other person in History, than to top it off would parade around with young Boys, while expressing to others the rights of women and the freedom. She totally forgot about the rights and freedoms of the young boys, mostly Aboriginal, when using them as her little sex slaves.

The final blow came when she denounced Steve Erwin as the worst person ever on the planet for miss treating animals, within a week of his death. With this type of deformity of thinking She is totally unwelcome back to Australia. I think Every one is Equal that treats others as equal to them selves, regardless of sex or affiliation.

I believe a woman should have the right to make decisions for herself and share in the decision of her home and property, the right to own things, to work and be recognized for her accomplishments, but I also think her basic job, when God created women ,was to be a helpmate to her husband and a mother to her children. This should be the top priority of a woman. I enjoy being treated as a woman, I do not want to be treated as a man. I hate vulgarity in women.

A lot of good comments on this one. One of the few times I have actually read through each and every one. I liked the comment made regarding the similarities between the feminist movement and unions. Very good incites Peter I think you what you were after on this one.

My opnion is that I would be a strong minded woman whether the feminist movement happened or not, however I am glad it did because otherwise I would be a lot more hot water than I usually am already!

I think feminists are totally hot, but that's just me.

All that is good can be misdirected to evil. I benefit from the sacrifices of the first feminists. And my family benefits from the fact that I'm not the same as my husband. Hopefully I'm just as valued. To me, that's what feminism bought me.

I'm with Bongo. Now, I shall cry myself to sleep for being considered evil. And almost a communist, even. Whatever shall I do? Just because I don't think I should be a doormat. Hmm.

Miss Manners says chivalry is the strong submitting to the weak. That would be a young healthy woman getting up on the bus to give her seat to an elderly man (See- sometimes women are stronger than men - depends on the woman - depends on the man).

I've read that because of their unique bodies women can make better astronauts than men. You couldn't say that a few decades ago, though, without being called "ridiculous".

I always hold doors for women (or anybody, actually) and I've never gotten in trouble for my "being nice" (make sure you do it so you look like you're genuinely "being nice" and not being a snide jerk. No woman wants to walk through a door a man is holding open for her if she feels like she's playing into his condescending patronizing behaviour.).

Well spoken Peter . . . I have NEVER been run down for being polite . . . I suspect there's more than a few urban myths about it and, frankly, if a woman has such low class . . . she makes herself look bad . . . not you!

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

Here in the Philippines, there's a certain group named Gabriela that helps fight women's right. Nowadays, the group is often criticized because of it's extreme stand on issues concerning women.

The group's main objective is not bad but the problem is the some leaders of the group are using it on their own advantage.

Great article, Peter! But do you really think the the young woman who believed feminism "came out of" Communism will change her mind if you tell her it has its roots in humanism instead? I suspect the world view she's influenced by is the one that holds that humanism, atheism, liberalism, socialism, communism and a couple of other things are all parts of the same conspiracy.

The article is great. As with anything, some will use it to advance their personal agendas and so over time some issues have clouded the good and amazing things the early feminists did. Women really got a new lease on life, new opportunities out of the home, and all women today do owe a big thank you to them for their hard work.

Religion does hate humanism like it hates communism. Communes go back to the first tribal living situations of pre-humans, and humanism seems to go back to the ancient Greeks (that we can read about).

You can't just put modern dates on things like "feminism". The ancient Romans wiped out a lot of matriarchal cultures. I think there was feminism in some form or other for as long as there have been females. Modern feminism seems to be a lot of just rediscovering that women are capable of great variety. 70s feminism was certainly a direct reaction to the 50s.

"However, the Rosie O'Donnell type turns me off"

Aw, Tinch, if my novel Hollywood Sinners is ever turned into a movie couldn't Rosie play the part of Mama Gravy?

I value ANYONE who speaks their mind.


Nonconformists are ingenuitive and are the inventors of the world.

If I had a choice Mama Gravy would be played by Bette Midler - wouldn't she be a divine dance hall owner? She'd look so 30s!

OH! That reminds me of a joke!

How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?






That's not funny!

As a philosophy, feminism is an outgrowth of, closely allied with, and supportive of humanism. (an application of the precepts of humanism specifically to women as a class of people).....i am a humanist...because i am female, i don't have a prob with the feminist label either....we are responsible for some important positive changes throughout the decades that benefit all women....there are many books written that list the legislation, workforce,healthcare system and other aspects of those
changes....

pleasant change reading your article vs. the inane drivel of TJ LDS-man.....

cheers,gayle

I think anyone who believes there are no differences between a man and a woman is a fool. I love being a woman and cherish the differences. I enjoy having a man lift things for me, opening a car door and treating me like a lady. God made me this way for a reason.

If thinking that men and women can achieve the same goals if they set their mind to it is "feminist" then I guess I am one myself. I don't think gender should stop anyone from doing anything (well, ok, except the logical baby making stuff and such) LOL

But I think God did NOT create us equal and I'm darn glad for that!

There are those who have nothing to add to the discussion so they just call anyone they don't like Communists. The women's movement was layed out very well in this article, Peter.

Beverly - equality for women is about equality under the law. Sure men are usually stronger physically. But, if you can't understand your own equality with everyone else on the planet then you have nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Peter -

I remember the discussion you were having with the young woman who thought Feminism came from Communism. I was part of that discussion too, and I thought the linkage was a little bit of a stretch.

However, I'm not much of a fan of feminism, so I cheered her on.

She had said that some feminist had put a bit of the communist manifesto in her feminist manifesto.

I had to wonder if that was the "feminist" who'd shot Andy Warhol! ha ha

You get all sorts of people who do all sorts of things - and taken out of context that will always provide fuel for the opposition.

Just about anything I say, a woman could. I study yin and yang through the I Ching, and my elements are both feminine. Though I'm assimilated to being male, and mostly I talk like a guy, I plan on being a woman in another life.

Feminists are over rated: I'm so over being rated by anyone!

Rosie is not a feminist. She does not epitomize what a femininst believes or does. Rose is just a plain old rude type of person. She has few manners! I'm a humanist, I believe in people, all people. But people must be respectful to others to gain my respect. She is not respectful of anyone and has not gained anything from me but my disdain.

I never really think about the roles feminists have played to shape my life, but I should thank them. I just assume I am equal in worth to a man, and conduct myself in that manne. I know my worth and I project it well. I was actually given a higher starting wage than 2 of my male collegues because I was confident in my abilities and negotiated my wage. All women need is confidence (and not to be around sexists). I'm blessed that I run into limited sexism, though I do hear the offhand remarks by male collegues about "dumb girls" who are lucky they are attractive enough to land a husband. Like they are incapable of taking care of themselves without a man. That does set my teeth on edge. I've never let my gender stop me from doing what I want to do. (and for the record I don't WANT to do pushups, it's not because I can't - okay, honestly, I can't do pushups)

So yes men and women are different, but we are equal in worth. Don't let anyone tell you differently. I thank feminists of the past for giving me the confidence to say that and believe it wholeheatedly. The feminists that give feminism a bad name are the ones that think men are inferior. THAT is obviously false. Equality. Not special treatment for either gender. One is not better than the other.

And now, I step off my soapbox.

I can't think of anything relevant to add to this discussion that hasn't already been said but I did enjoy reading the article and the comments.

I agree with this:

"Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings"
-Cheris Kramerae, author of A Feminist Dictionary, 1996.

As a woman, I want to be treated as a full-fledged human being. I want my opinion to be as valuable as any other human being's, my labor to be considered as valuable as any other human being's. I want to have the same right to choose my life path, own property, parent or not parent children, etc, as other human beings have.

Everything else is a distraction.

By the definition you cited, I'm a feminist. My father (and to a lesser degree, my husband) are more like the feminist so singled out in media - men haters that think women deserve more than equality. Then you have the women who hate feminists thinking that they caused the death of chivalry.

I don't call myself a feminist, because I'm a humanist. I don't object to a man holding my door, because I'm for courtesy; I'll hold a door if I get there first. Courtesy and consideration should not be a male-only thing. All humans should be treated as people with understanding and tolerance.

I am treated as a full-fledged human being and always have been because I've never expected any other treatment. The problem isn't feminism but the way the labels been applied to male-bashing tendencies. That's not the fault of the original feminist movement any more than Christ was responsible for some of the atrocities done by Christians. It has been equated as the female version of chauvinsim (which began as a term for the admiration of men).

People who understand the humanistic intents behind feminists aren't offended by the term. People who can believe anything they see in the media probably don't even know what a feminist is.

I come from a family of strong women, and we've never let anyone treat as less than anyone else. My grandmother owned her own business in a time when not many women did that. As a child in the 60's, my mom was the only working mom among all the ones I knew. In the 70's, I joined the male dominated military, as a radio and television broadcaster, at a time when there were *no* women on the radio during prime time. I actually had a sargeant tell me his goal was to get the broads out of broadcasting!

Then I studied compter programming, one of only 5 women in a class of 50. In 1982, in my first job interview, the manager asked me if I had children, and how I planned to handle child care. Feminism has made those questions illegal today.

For me, feminism is the simple recognition that I am as smart, capable, and valuable as any other person; I have a right to compete, and I have a right to be paid the same. I also have a right to follow my heart, raise children, marry or not, and expect to be treated with the same courtesy and respect as anyone else.

Kind of like the same rights the gays and lesbians are fighting for now. Different front, same battle. And we women, who benefitted so much from our mother's battles, should be right in there fighting with them.

I've known lots of lesbians and none of them were "man haters". They only required one thing of men and that was that they keep their body part out of them.

Easy enough.

Stephanie -

Women did cause the death of chivalry. Is there really still a discussion about that these days?

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Peter -

Once again, I have no problem with the 'idea' of feminism. Its all the crackpots that have tried to implement policy based on it that makes me grind my teeth in aggravation.

Poor deployment has killed more good ideas that I can count.

Interesting... nothing here on 2nd or 3rd wave feminism... it isn't dead, it's just changing.

For the record, I'm not a feminist. I'm not any sort of "ist." :)

Bret,

Miss Manners still talks about chivalry. She says it means "The strong giving in to the weak". A young healthy woman would give up her bus seat for an elderly man and that would be chivalry.

Some info on 'waves' of feminism from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-topics/


"So some have found it useful to think of the women's movement in the US as occurring in "waves". On the wave model, the struggle to achieve basic political rights during the period from the mid-19th century until the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment in 1920 counts as "First Wave" feminism. Feminism waned between the two world wars, to be "revived" in the late 1960's and early 1970's as "Second Wave" feminism. In this second wave, feminists pushed beyond the early quest for political rights to fight for greater equality across the board, e.g., in education, the workplace, and at home. More recent transformations of feminism have resulted in a "Third Wave". Third Wave feminists often critique Second Wave feminism for its lack of attention to the differences among women due to race, ethnicity, class, nationality, religion, and emphasize "identity" as a site of gender struggle."

What a fantastic dialogue you have started here, Peter!

According to the US Dept of Labor, women earn 73% of the salaries of men in the same positions with the same qualifications. For some occupations, such as surgeons in DC - women earn almost 50% of what men do.

Violence against women is still a problem. Murder is the leading cause of pregnant women. The ladies who are so concerned with the rights of newborns should care about that, at least.

Those two single statistics indicate more than what they state. Women are undervalued. Period. Maybe things are better, as in I can call the cops if my husband knocks out my teeth, and they will probably take him to jail now. Once not that long ago, it was his right.

Obviously, the work of feminists is not done. It is sad that we as women have allowed ourselves to be entertained with trivial niceties while atrocities are happening every day. It is even more disturbing that the feminists are considered to be the evil ones by our own kind. But, divided we fall, yes? Score two for the home team.

I forgot to mention that I am happy to open doors for anyone, and I do frequently. I am capable of being polite as much as any man. Men deserve polite gestures just like we do. They may not be the ones bearing children, but many of them are involved in raising them. Even when they are not the fathers. Feminism does not deny chivalry, but rather shares it with the other side.

Peter -

I couldn't agree more. And I ride the bus too. Sadly, I seem to be the only one giving up his seat for anyone these days. Whenever I do that, I think of the previous discussion we were having about this topic.

No doubt about it, chivalry is dead..........even if I do it. Its just not statistically significant any more.

Here are some facts about the pay gap. More info can be found at the NOW website: http://www.now.org/issues/economic/factsheet.html

In 2005, women's median annual earnings were only $.77 for every $1.00 earned by men. For women of color, the gap is even worse – only $.71 for African American women and $.58 for Latinas.

The General Accounting Office compiled data from the Current Population Survey regarding the ten industries that employ 71 percent of U.S. women workers and 73 percent of U.S. women managers. In seven of the ten industries examined, the pay gap between full-time male and female managers widened between 1995 and 2000.

If women received the same wages as men who work the same number of hours, have the same education and union status, are the same age, and live in the same region of the country, then these women's annual income would rise by $4,000 and poverty rates would be cut in half. Working families would gain an astounding $200 billion in family income annually.

Pay equity in female-dominated jobs (jobs in which women comprise 70 percent or more of the workforce) would increase wages for women by approximately 18 percent.

Fifty-five percent of all women work in female-dominated jobs (jobs in which women comprise 70 percent or more of the workforce) whereas only 8.5 percent of all men work in these occupations. However, the men working in female-dominated jobs still receive about 20 percent more than women who work in female-dominated jobs.

Women are paid less in every occupational classification for which sufficient information is available, according to the data analysis in over 300 job classifications provided by the U.S. Department of Labor Statistics.

In 1963, the year of the Equal Pay Act's passage, full-time working women were paid 59 cents on average to the dollar received by men, while in 2005 women were paid 77 cents for every dollar received by men. In other words, for the last 42 years, the wage gap has only narrowed by less than half of a penny per year.

Okay I read this article and a few of the comments, now, I was born in 1926, but when I was born, women were treasured by their husbands, taken care of, never had to work to help out, if money was needed a man took two jobs so she could stay home with her kids. When I was 18, I had the right to vote of course, so I didn't miss out. When the war was on I worked for the Civilian side of the Army, paid more than soldiers in the field, what's wrong with that back then, and when the war was over, I found a husband who took care of me and our four children, I went back to work after all were raised, I was intelligent enough to have a good job, and had men under my supervision, I wondered about the feminist movement going on then, and I didn't take part in it, laughed at the women burning their bras, etc., I mean come on, and then I was still enjoying the devotion of my husband, never treated second class in my life, why, not because of a movement of any kind, but because I never considered myself that. I am sorry for the change it made in how men look at women now, we are all equal, we all work, men do housework so women can go to work, I think it is funny. Now Peter here is another comment for you to smile at. or not.

I too have nothing more to add to this discussion. I am not a feminist either but do believe in equal work for equal pay...

Great article Peter!

I have yet to meet a woman who has been paid a different wage than a man in a similar job.

Could it be that the methodology that's used by the Bureau of Labor Statistics uses yearly wages, instead of hourly wages as their benchmark? Women tend to take more vacations, more sick leave (often to take care of dependent children), and more pregnancy leave than men. I'm pretty sure that isn't taken into account in the numbers you presented. I've heard this argument before and it turns out that when you use hourly statistics, it distorts true labor statistics.

This article and its comments have been very interesting. I don't have much to add, either, as I think it's been well-stated. I will state that, while I don't call myself a feminist, the choices available to me in my lifetime, in great part, have been because of this movement. I can't even imagine my daughter and my granddaughter not having the choices we have now; how horrendous that would be.

Bret, Do you really think that you are the first person to consider maternity leave? And, I suppose you are also supposed to be more of an authority on pay rates than the Dept of Labor. Right.

Bret, are you one of those people who beligerantly claims the Jews weren't massacred in the Holocaust as well?

Jennifer -

The last time I heard this brought up on CNN, a Bureau of Labor Statistician straightened things out for Wolf Blitzer, on the air. It definitely answered a lot of my questions.
I had long believed this stat was puffed up. I still do.

Elsie, thank you (and I am smiling). Thank you for your comment and I'm glad you had a good husband and good marriage. You deserve it. It sounds like you didn't need feminism too much.

I guess feminism works a lot better for those women who aren't so lucky and don't have a decent man to take care of them and their children. Some husbands are rotten. Some rather stupid. Some just die too soon and leave the wife holding the bag.

I wonder if all lesbians are feminist by default - not having men to cover all those bases for them.

Bra burning is silly to my mind - I hear those things are expensive!!!

Holocaust?

Huh?

And ...

Nobody has commented on how cool Mae West was!

In the 80s in college I was in a very festive Take Back The Night march and a woman burned her bra and the only thing about that that seemed scandalous was how terribly flammable the thing was. It went up in a flash that barely took even one second. If you blinked you missed it. She screamed. We laughed.

I wonder how long one of those fabulous 50s bullet bras would take?

What does bra burning have to do with feminism? How many bras were really burned?

Peter -

Feminism has been incorporated into all those absurd female sensitivity classes you are forced to take in the corporate world, so that your company doesn't get sued.

Since I'm married, I listen to the women in my office as a bemused outsider.........however, they do let me get my 2 cents worth in, occasionally. When they do, the talk always devolves into "where are all the REAL men?" or "whatever happened to men with good manners?"
I chuckle and tell them that corporate Feminism beat it out of us. They're usually disappointed to hear that, but they almost always silently nod in approval.

That reminds me of an old joke:


THE PROSPECTIVE FATHER-IN-LAW ASKED, "YOUNG MAN, CAN YOU SUPPORT A FAMILY?"
THE SURPRISED GROOM-TO-BE REPLIED, "WELL, MMM, NO. I WAS JUST PLANNING TO SUPPORT YOUR DAUGHTER. THE REST OF YOU WILL HAVE TO FEND FOR YOURSELVES."

Ha ha - I bet there were lots of women who lived under the Taliban who were content with their status - if they had a nice husband and house and children (and, so, status in the community) then what's to complain about. The other women who were not so lucky, I guess, were the "wrong kind of people" and so TOO BAD!!! Kind of like Elsie's attitude of "I had it good so who cares about anybody who didn't - in fact I'll have a good chuckle at them".

I don't know what women being rude in your office has to do with much, other than woman can be very rude. I doubt feminism invented rude women, though. I think they were always rude, as men were. Most, even, maybe. People have to learn to be nice. I think rudeness reflects more on a person's parents than anything. That's a shame you have to work with rude women.

Good one, Peter.

The women in my office aren't and weren't being rude. They just want to know why there aren't any 'good' men any more. My answer : some of the good ones have been wussified, and the others just lay low, go bar hopping, and women hopping on the weekends, never committing or becoming deeply involved with anyone of the female sex. That might get too complex, and they might have to adhere to standards that are out of their control. Its easy to see how this all has transpired over the past 30 years.

Oh. I thought they were being nasty to you.

I was just trying to get the conversation going on and on but it seems they all kept it over at the other place.

Hello! Hello? Hello anybody???!!! I'm over here!

My great grandmother, and her daughter (my grandmother) packed up their children and moved from Iowa to Renton, Washington to work during WWII. They helped build planes and other things. The men were all gone to war. Rosie the Riverter was the icon for those women, and they fulfilled every aspect of womanhood. Huzzah to them!! My mother told me there was NOTHING I could not do if I wanted to. She was right. Is that evil? Methinks NOT. I have been: an artist (who has had her art displayed in the Metropolitan Museum in NY), a ceramic artist with her own business, a DJ, a Program Director of a radio station, a Master Board Control Operator of a television station.....along with being a wife, mother, and card carrying member of Little League!

Huzzah!

Oh, and...P.S......through it all, I made about HALF what a man would make doing the same thing. I bitched. Does that make me evil? :)

I think Feminism had its day, but that day is no more. Some of Feminism has been incorporated into everyday life, and other parts were simply left to atrophy.

I'm a staunch feminist - Russian feminist - and it in itself tells a lot. ;-) I have nothing against men opening the door for me or helping to bring my luggage - even though I can well manage with both things by myself - but I want to see more women in politics, business and especially religion. I want to see women making their choices for themseves, without any pressure from outside. I want to see women uniting to defend their interests in every sphere, social or private. I want for men to view women like responsible human creatures and equal partners, not like dolls created for their own pleasure... if not worse. And I must admit I do admire Western feminists - in many respects. ;-) Despite all the possible extremities, we Russian women have a lot to learn from them... just like, maybe, they from us. ;-)

Blessings and best wishes - S.

Well said Svetlana!

Sveta,

Western women have much to learn about the relaxed attitude and understanding that Eastern European women have, while remaining strong in spirit.

I have been a booster of the feminist movement since the mid 1950's. The first woman I ever dated in hi school's mother was an engineer at General Dynamics Astronautics. That impressed me totally and convinced me that there was no difference between genders as far as role-playing and stereotypes.

Unfortunately, in the West we have gone overboard (as we do in everything), and there is a bitter taste in many people's mouth.

I also dated a woman who was so far out that she would yell if I tried to open a door.

Walker and Sveta!

Walker!

The reason why I never objected when you would open a door for me is because you move faster than I do, not because you're a man, but because you are physically able to move faster and see further than I am. Were i to reach for the door, and you push my hand away, or something, then I'd get upset. I KNOW you would NEVER do that.

Sveta.

I agree with what you and Walker have both said about the patience in Russian and Eastern European women, but often times I feel that they too, go overboard in the patient department. Were I as patient as some Russian woman I know, in certain situations in my life, I would not be where I am now, and neither would some others I know. I think the key is assertiveness. We shouldn't be passive, nor should we be agressive.

All this talk about the stats on labor being 'puffed up' as a result of pregnancy is absurd. The reports that I have read regarding that take into consideration time taken off. Personally, I have been paid significantly less than my male counterparts in the workplace before. I have been flat out denied more than one promotion. In college, I worked as a waitress in a popular place. I was repeatedly told that I could not work as a bartender because the owners did not want women behind the bar. For security reasons. This meant that I was not able to earn 350 a night, but instead topped out at 200 on the best nights I was scheduled. Men who had not been working in the industry or in the restaurant repeatedly came into the business, worked a few weeks, and then went into bartender training. I complained, and I was fired. The lawyers I spoke with told me that since I didn't have the conversations on tape, there was nothing that they could do. Bret, I can assure you that I did not take any maternity leave because I did not and do not have children.

Every movement has its obnoxious fanatics. They start out being necessary to bring attention to the problem. In 1972 a female attorney with her own office in Dallas applied for a credit card in her own name, using her own past credit. The company sent the card in her husband's name. The husband, and other males didn't understand why she was so upset. We women did.

In Texas a man could leave his wife for years, come back into town and sell the business she had started while he was gone without telling her or sharing a dime. So a few loud, non-shaving agressive women seemed like nothing in comparison.

On a lighter note. When I was in college in 1969, a student with about 6 heavy, thick books came toward the building. When I opened the door for him, he exclaimed, "At last! A benefit from feminism." I've thought about that several times. What I considered to be simply good manners was accepted as a political statement. Whatever, it got the job done.

Here's a couple quotes from Catt:

This world taught woman nothing skillful and then said her work was valueless. It permitted her no opinions and said she did not know how to think.

There are two kinds of restrictions upon human liberty -- the restraint of law and that of custom. No written law has ever been more binding than unwritten custom supported by public opinion.

I hear masculinists are good on toast, Phillip... or is that Marmite?

And one from Simone de Beauvoir:

There are two types of people in this world, human beings and women. When women act like human beings they are accused of acting like men.

Just another woolly-headed little woman...