655,000 Iraqis Dead

I just said in another article that this war is totally about politics now. There is no justification for 655,000 Iraqis being killed but hells bells...what about our military people being injured or killed?

We need a MAJOR shift in the White House to end this crap. We are at a stand still and certain people are benefiting from all of this. MONEY/OIL

Nobody including Hopkins believes the figures in those reports. They are hogwash and should be retracted.

Sad reality!!!!

In the end, this war will go down as a bad time in our history. We should never be involved in a preemptive strike for any reason.

Why survey households in Iraq instead of use a body count? I'll answer. the body count is around 50,000 and that isn't traumatic enough to cause a huge uproar. The lesson learned by this survey is you can't trust surveys.

Joe Never? are we supposed to wait until North Korea launches that nuclear missle before we do something.

The question I'm wondering after reading the comment is: Are they posting that the U.S. Military killed 655,000 Iraqis? Are we the ones blowing up scores of children? Is Bush responsible for their deaths? Do not blame our military. Blame the ones making and setting off bombs.

Hi Alberto, I am not blaming the military for tehse deaths. But I do think the strategy that led us to the war we have today, that has created this civil war, is responsible for these deaths. Our leaders, Bush, Chehey, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, who claimed that we would be welcomed as liberators and someohow did not realize that a country with three different religious groups that hated each other would erupt into a deadly civil war are responisble for all these fatalities of Iraquis and American soldiers as well.

Okay, I can understand your views and I believe the military must adapt their strategy to current situations. However, I do not agree that the current strategy created the possible inevitability of civil war. The insurgent bombing of the Muslim groups is raising their tensions. Current reports claim that the insurgents originate in Iran. America must deal with the Iran situation if they want to "win" in Iraq.

The reoport said the military was only responsible for 30% of the deaths. That is still 200K human lives, men, women and children, babies and grandmothers.

Do you believe everything you read...or just what reinforces your perspective. Perhaps one should await the report on Thursday to evaluate the premise it was based on.

300,000 Kurds are missing (we are finding them in mass graves) from Sadham's reign.

WE did not kill those people, OTHER MUSLIMS killed those Muslims. Believe they would rather it be us.

The numbers cited are not accepted by any one including Iraqis.

Lauren G.:

I'll bet your bleeding heart is broken over Darfur too and you probably support the notion that Bush should rush in there and kill a bunch of MUSLIMS to stop them from killing NON-Muslims (etnic-cleansing my cute hindquarters).

Then your heart can bleed for the hundreds of thousands that will be slaughtered in Iraq until someone claims a victory and instills a iron-fist regime and cuts off the oil to us and other infidel countries, then your little liberal heart will bleed some more because you can't fill your SUV to go get some new shoes, and NOBODY is doing anything about all the killing of the MUSLIMS by MUSLIMS in the world.

The report was on an estimate based on a survey condifted by 8 doctors who questioned one person in each of 1800 housholds in randomly selected enighborhoods.
By these methods each of those 1800 people would have to have first hand knowlege of 366 dead people and the circumstances of all 366 deaths. They also would need to name each person and each respondants list would need to be checked against each other respondants list.

Just the motion that anyone knows the names and circumstances of 366 ded people is nuts.

"I'll bet your bleeding heart is broken over Darfur too "
"Then your heart can bleed for the hundreds of thousands that will be slaughtered in Iraq"

It's true Grateful 1. I feel sad when people are slaughtered in war, especially one as senseless as the Iraq War. If that makes me a bleeding heart so be it.

Lauren Is it a senseless war or is it you don't have enough sense to understand the war?

Senseless war to me.

Seneseless posting from you.

"The report was on an estimate based on a survey condifted by 8 doctors who questioned one person in each of 1800 housholds in randomly selected enighborhoods."

I hate to be the one to clue you in on this little factoid, but this is precisely how subject surveys are conducted all the time, specifically because the science involved is reliable and extremely accurate.




"Lauren Is it a senseless war or is it you don't have enough sense to understand the war? "

Obviously, only one who is so much more brilliant than the scientists from Johns Hopkins University could ever hope to grasp and understand this war. Luckly, you're that special person.

"300,000 Kurds are missing (we are finding them in mass graves) from Sadham's reign."

The most recent study of Iraqi civilian deaths only includes the period from the time that we invaded the country. Sorry.




"WE did not kill those people, OTHER MUSLIMS killed those Muslims."

I believe that Saddam has been given credit for those deaths already.




"The numbers cited are not accepted by any one including Iraqis. "

Please provide documentation to support this claim.

Subject surveys are not factual. Giving the number of dead HUMANs based on that method is the same as saying well we don't have to be accurate on this we'll just guess. That sickens me more than the mindless reverberations of the twits who plaster it all over Gather.

Clark is it so essential to your happines that you would lend your efforts to suport junk scientific surveys in order to Bash Bush? You have sunk to a new low.

It's JOHN HOPKINS! It was funded in part by MIT!!! These are not crackpot scientists who believe in creationsim these are our nation's best and brightest. Even if they overestimated the casuallties by a few hundred thousad, that wou.d still leave a quarter of a million Iraqis dead.

We pledged to liberate them and instill democracy and instead they are dying in a civil war.

David T.,

Iraq is a very different situation than N. Korea. You know this, I believe.

Whether it's 50,000 Iraqis or 500,000, it's still too many...and even the "low" number of 50,000 is still 10 times the number killed in 9/11.

I've seen right wingers on this board deny that Foley is into teenage boys based on the idea that the Democrats started a conspiracy to discredit him.

The amount of denial here is amazing.

Johns Hopkins is one of the top premiere universities in the country, and THE place to go if you are interested in studying anything related to medicine. As Lauren said, these are not "crackpot scientists."

They also state QUITE CLEARLY in the study:

"The number of extra Iraqis who have died since March 2003 includes deaths from all causes, including those due to a rise in certain diseases and illnesses, the study said."

Now, if you count in disease and illness due to war (such as unsafe water and living conditions) then 600,000 is hardly unbelievable.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061011/ts_nm/iraq_deaths_dc

If I heard our fearless leader President Bush correctly this morning at his new interview - he dismissed that figure....hum....wonder if he made that decision based on other information - like the weapons of mass distruction info he was given...?

Have you ever thought about this? what if your family members were being beaten, raped and tortured by Saddam and his sons? Not to mention the slaughter of innocent people such as the kurds or anyone who did not believe the way Saddam did. They had no freedom of speech, their young daughters. some of them as young as 12 were chosen for Saddams sons pleasures, then the bodies of the girls were thrown to dogs to kill these innocent kids. Men taken out of the homes and tortured, thrown in cells, buried alive, killed. And you say we have no business being over there. Anyone who has an ounce of compassion in ones heart for their fellow man , would want to help them. If this were happening to your family members, wouldnt you want someone to help you????? For whatever reason that we are there , we have taken a madman and his loony sons out of business. I am glad that President Bush was man enough to stop this. WE ARE THE LUCKY ONES. WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND RIGHTS. FREEDOM NEVER COMES FREE, THERE IS ALWAYS A PRICE TO PAY..BECAUSE OF OUR GREAT MILITARY FIGHTING TO HELP OTHERS IN NEED AND FIGHTING TO GIVE US FREEDOM OF SPEECH WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT THIS UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME. You want to whine and complain but you still dont get it.THERE IS NO DRAFT, THESE BRAVE SOLDIERS VOLUNTEERED TO HELP AND I AM SURE THAT GOD WILL REMEMBER THEM FOR THEIR SACRIFICES.

"Subject surveys are not factual."

However, they ARE the most accurate means of gathering information in many cases. They are based upon scientifically proven accurate methods that take into account the probability of errors. They are, without any question, one helluva lot more accurate and reliable than your "pull it out of my ass" methodology.





"Giving the number of dead HUMANs based on that method is the same as saying well we don't have to be accurate on this we'll just guess."

No, it's not. It's based upon scientifically proven methodology. YOUR method relies entirely upon guesswork, with the #1 key being that, if it makes Bushie look bad, ignore it and move on to an alternative "reality."




"That sickens me more than the mindless reverberations of the twits who plaster it all over Gather. "

If someone who posts the results of a scientifically produced survey constitute "Mindless reverberations of twits," what would you call it when someone opposes the results vehemently, yet refuses to post any documentation to support his belief?





"Clark is it so essential to your happines that you would lend your efforts to suport junk scientific surveys in order to Bash Bush?"

I sure wish I didn't have to see something like this report come out. I wish to hell Bush would've just taken the legal path, and let the UN inspectors do their job, or at the very least, if he HAD to violate international law by invading, he could've/would've/should've abided by the sage advice given to him by countless military and Iraq experts, who told him precisely what would unfold if he didn't secure the peace and get the people to work immediately. Trust me, I get no joy in seeing Bush wrong when it means that ANY humans have died or suffered.




"You have sunk to a new low. "

Because I tend to favor scientifically proven methods of information gathering, rather than simply yanking turds out of my ass?

A 50,000 person body count is pretty damned horrendous. That number shouldn't be tossed out like some get out of jail free card. 50,000 or 600,000 - each of those was a human life, just like each of our own.

"what if your family members were being beaten, raped and tortured by Saddam and his sons? Not to mention the slaughter of innocent people such as the kurds or anyone who did not believe the way Saddam did."

I guess I'm supposed to say that I'd be happy that George Bush murdered my wife and kids, right? Sorry. I wouldn't.




"They had no freedom of speech, their young daughters. some of them as young as 12 were chosen for Saddams sons pleasures, then the bodies of the girls were thrown to dogs to kill these innocent kids."

Tell me, exactly what "Freedoms" do these 600,000+ dead people have now? And, how happy do you suppose their brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc. are that they're now "liberated?"




"Men taken out of the homes and tortured, thrown in cells, buried alive, killed."

Still happening, to the tune of about 3,000 per month.




"And you say we have no business being over there."

We don't. Except that our oil somehow found its way underneath their damn sand.




"Anyone who has an ounce of compassion in ones heart for their fellow man , would want to help them. "

By killing them?




"If this were happening to your family members, wouldnt you want someone to help you?????"

I'd prefer nobody step in to murder my family and myself in order to save us from being murdered, thank you very much.




"For whatever reason that we are there , we have taken a madman and his loony sons out of business. "

How come we weren't bothered at all by his actions while he was committing his worst attrocities (during the 80's)? Why did it become such an urgent, extreme matter of humanity in 2003, long after he'd finished his most dastardly deeds? And, how is it better now that those deeds are being committed without him in power?




"I am glad that President Bush was man enough to stop this."

He's caused it. What are you talking about?





"WE ARE THE LUCKY ONES. WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND RIGHTS."

For now.




"FREEDOM NEVER COMES FREE, THERE IS ALWAYS A PRICE TO PAY..BECAUSE OF OUR GREAT MILITARY FIGHTING TO HELP OTHERS IN NEED AND FIGHTING TO GIVE US FREEDOM OF SPEECH WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT THIS UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME. "

So, this explains why Bush is stripping away our freedoms?





"You want to whine and complain but you still dont get it"

We should rejoice that 600,000+ innocent lives have been ended because of Bush's illegal and unnecessary war?




"THERE IS NO DRAFT, THESE BRAVE SOLDIERS VOLUNTEERED TO HELP AND I AM SURE THAT GOD WILL REMEMBER THEM FOR THEIR SACRIFICES. "

And, I'm sure they'll be thrilled to learn that they've died so that George Bush could strip away our freedoms and rights, while murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

The so-called scientific methods were designed and are very useful for determining things that can't be counted. Like when a mudslide buries a lot of people.

Both this and the earlier study are the only ones to estimate mortality in Iraq using scientific methods. The technique, called "cluster sampling," is used to estimate mortality in famines and after natural disasters.

For Burnham's study, researchers gathered data from a sample of 1,849 Iraqi households with a total of 12,801 residents from late May to early July. That sample was used to extrapolate the total figure. The estimate deals with deaths up to July.

The survey was conducted between May 20 and July 10 by eight Iraqi physicians organized through Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. They visited 1,849 randomly selected households that had an average of seven members each. One person in each household was asked about deaths in the 14 months before the invasion and in the period after.

Eight doctors, 1849 households 231 households each. That is 5.6 household each. Day including Saturday and Sunday. The total area of Iraq is 169,234 sq mi. Those eight doctors traveled a lot. Or did they just drop into the areas where the car bombs had recently gone off.

So I'm sitting at my house and some doctor knocks on the door. He asks me how many people do you know of who died in the last 14 months. And I pull my list of 366 people out of my hat. I have written down all their names and the circumstances of their deaths. They all lived on my block and I knew them all personally. I remember who died in the last 14 months and who died of what and if it was caused by the war. Please (((SARCASM OFF)))

What is likely to have happened here is many of the deaths were reported by several people. Unless there is a list of names the number is a falsehood.

There are only two states of any one human. Alive or dead. There is only two ways to count the dead. Who is missing and presumed dead and who you actually see the body. If there is a large number of presumed dead in this report it is not truthful to give that number and a death total. If there is a large number of double reports It is not truthful to give that number as a death toll.

I challenge you to name 366 people that you know personally. I then, challenge you to say accurately weather they are alive or dead. Then, if they are dead tell how they died.

Do not accuse me of not caring. It is because I do care that I object to people using those deaths as a political tool.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976813129

Time to bring our troops home.....N O W ! They are exhausted to the point they can not protect their ammo dump.........blew up last night.... and they sure are not able to protect Iraqis or themselves properly. Freedom is earned by standing and fighting for it and the Iraqis must be the ones that stand up and fight for it not US Troops. We train troops in weeks they have had years to train their troops. Some day they must want freedom and fight for it............Today is a good day and if we stay there 20 tears they will not stand and fight. Rather, they will allow our troops to die for them !

We are training more all the time and soon there will be a turning point.

Yes, I see we've been training more troops. At the coffee shop the other day I saw something tacked up on the bulletin board that said, "Need a part-time job? Join the National Guard. $60,000 bonus!" Part time job . . .