After giving this some thought, and getting input from members, and giving it more thought; I think Gather has a split personality. I think there are one of two basic intents that writers have when they publish, and members have when they look for something to read and/or comment on;
There is the serious side of writing, and the lighter side.
There is a sort of "old school"; Gather as a place to develop writing talent and engage in rigorous discussion of "intricate" matters, which became the unique "personality trait"of the site. Within that theme there were always less cerebral sub plots, but it's what gave the community a sense of identity.
In the thread of a recent article (/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976795701), which asked about how to deal with the growing volume of short, not truly "literary" offerings, generally intended to provoke playful banter or merely offhand opinion style reactions, and the resultant "chat room" like atmosphere that is developing on Gather; a pattern emerged. The consensus seemed to be that there was nothing inherently wrong with the less weighty new aspect, but that it was crowding out the very thing that made Gather special.
George Corneliussen put it this way;
"The circus always draws more people to it than the library does. It's been that way since circuses and libraries have coexisted on this planet. That doesn't mean the library is any less valuable, it just means that more people want to go to the circus than the library. Funny thing is, you can find lots of books about circuses at the library, but you won't find one book about libraries at the circus."
But is it possible to preserve the "library" part of Gather in the process of growing more popular? Or will the trend toward "circus" inevitably overwhelm the once heady personality, and the "old school" vision, of a true writers site, fade into the strip mall ubiquity along the super-highway of the internet?
What if there were a division, nothing solid mind you, just a click or two, that separated the "library" from the "circus"? Based on the notion that;
There are two fairly distinct intents of writers and readers that are worthy of a place on Gather, but tend to create a sort of mutual animosity. Not because these intents are incompatible with Gather's purpose, or the varied interests of it's members, but because folks want to go to the "circus", or they want to go to the "library", but rarely do they want to go to the library's circus, or the circus's library.
So here is what I propose: Two basic categories, called something like; "Serious Writing", and "Food for Thought". Every article would be placed in one of these categorizes, by the author, as they saw fit. The theory being; that if one wished a high level of participation, one would want to place their article, on the side of Gather, where the folks looking for the kind of thing the article offered would most likely be. Articles poorly placed would generally draw little interest or response.
A second, and not necessarily important differentiation, could be the way the two sides were "scored", in terms of points. In order to keep the "library" well stocked, and maintain the "old school personality", as well as offer a just reward for the increased efforts of those investing more in their work; it would seem reasonable to grant more points for articles on the "library" side.
While this might cause some to fudge the line, blatant placement of "circus" items in the "library" would be a risky wager, and articles that were close calls might as well be in the library anyway. The powers that be could, by adjusting the differential as needed, maintain a balance between the two halves of Gather.
Wutcha think ??


Comments: 64
Do you really think gather's programmers can do this? :)
Marilyn - good thoughts, John!
An interesting possibility...
...But, what exactly would be the harm in placing an article that could be seen as either serious or light in both, as that is now what is being done with ALL articles?
Yes, I realize the "volume problem" and am in this idea attempting to relieve some of the sense of endlessness. What I find troublesome with what now exists, is that many people are publishing multiple tiny articles in an apparent attempt to generate points. I do not think this "splitting" approach would solve this, but by "packing such articles closer together, the impact of each may be diminished.
I do see a potential for folks to place such articles in the "serious" side, but little benefit would come of this, theoretically. Hence, this silliness would primarily be confined to the "side" where it most naturally belongs. My impulse in this proposal is primarily to preserve the "writers site" personality in some way, and I don't see how this can be done if there is not some form of separation that highlights these serious efforts.
I think that MOST people will post to BOTH categories, primarily in the hopes that their articles will get MORE comments that way.
I suppose that may happen, though I doubt most serious writers would really be tempted to post articles to the "frivolous" side. One would loose credibility that way, and be basically insulting their own work. The urge for those who's primary goal is to generate maximum points may not be as tempted to cross the line as might at first be supposed, as it takes almost as much time to re-post to the second side, as to generate a "new" article, with little assurance that it would bring as much benefit points wise.
Without a clearer understanding of the formula for awarding points it is difficult to say for sure, but assuming comment count is important, putting articles simply intended to generate many quick comments on the serious side might be rather "pointless" if folks didn't respond much. The possibility of having a "flag" like check-box available, to express that the reader felt misled by the articles placement, and some form of negative point impact resulting, or at least a failure to have the "read" count toward points, might be a powerful deterrent to dumping thoughtlessly in both sections.
"plagiarism"...Hmmm....maybe three basic "sides"...
Thanks
Mr. Knight, thank you for this example; this masterpiece; your LORD OF THE FLIES. The beauty here is that the "circus" and the "library" are both necessary.
No need to duck, I mentioned it first. But I don't mean "flag" in a catastrophic sense. more in an informative sense, and perhaps a minor point "penalty", such as negating any point value that having read the article yields to the author. Essentially making it "pointless" to bug people with "off sides" articles.
You gots it. That's exactly what I'm aiming at.
No, seriously, like I said, I really like your idea. I just don't think it's going to be implemented the way you have intended. Even with the "posted in the wrong category" flag (which is not a bad idea either, Julie), it's only an "After-fact" flag, which still doesn't stop people from posting stuff all over the place.
Well, you're supposed to laugh, so don't be sorry.
The point of the flag I proposed is to reduce the incentive to post in the inappropriate "half". As it is, people can post as much as they want anyway, and they're posting numerous articles that are five minute knockoffs. If they're going to post ten articles, why would they not put all ten on the "lighter" side? To think this set up would make them want to post twenty may be hasty; Why aren't they posting twenty now? We're not talking about things that are difficult to create.
What I believe would occur, if this "division" was done right, is people having little reason to post to the "wrong" side. If someone put a short silly piece on the serious side, it would get little response. The same piece on the correct side might get a good response. So if you had two such articles, you would naturally put them both on the "lighter" side. The question becomes, what is the value in duplicating the two pieces, and placing a set on each side? The answer is, very little. So why not simply create one or two more short fluff articles and put them all on the light side, where their value would be potentially high. The same reasoning works with any number of articles, there is simply not much to be gained if folks on each side do THEIR part, by not commenting on inappropriate pieces.
The one catch I really see is, points are probably awarded at a low level, just for getting someone to click open your article. That's why I suggest a box that would negate this small reward if the reader felt the article was on the wrong side. That way, it would be clear to authors that it would do them little good to try to "trick" people into clicking on an article by making it look like something it was not.
Thank you for your thoughts and open minded attitude. This is a real problem, and needs real consideration.
My suggestion is that we simply encourage Gather participants -- and this could perhaps be done officially in a "welcoming email" from on high -- to post only in those areas which are of interest to YOU. In other words, if you're a person who enjoys the quick and impressionistic approach, don't inject your "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" point of view into a serious, intricate discussion of a complex issue, just for the sake of popping off. On the other hand, if some people are having a fairly fun and flippant conversation and you're the more serious type, refraining from being a killjoy with longwinded and serious discussions which may showcase your brilliance but will not forward the discussion at hand.
I admit that it takes self-discipline to do that. I am often guilty of the latter crime. I get a notice in my email about a particular conversation, and I seem incapable of preventing myself from adding my two cents. But lately, I've really been trying to rein myself in. If someone is mixing the two -- writing quick and flippant pieces about serious issues -- just ignoring them will put a stop to that activity when they are no longer rewarded with Gather points.
Just a suggestion. It's a complex problem with no easy solution. ;-)
Thanks for your considerate view. I too have begun leaving many a thread untouched for reasons you site. I do believe however that growth will continue to create "crowding" ramifications that will eventually cause many of the most talented and intelligent members to fade away. Dealing with the sheer volume of "chatty" and quick response articles and comments erodes the sense of a "writers community" that forms a crucial incentive for many of the more serious authors which provide Gather with content that makes it "special" in the world of online interaction. My hope is that a solution of the type I here propose, might be implemented in such a way as to impact only slightly on the user, yet provide a "preserve" for the more serious writers and debaters.
No system would be perfect, and I only wish to mitigate a growing dissatisfaction all round. If the "one" Gather form we now have results in the loss of our best writers, you will begin a downward spiral that cannot be reversed. I have already witnessed the departure of several such quality authors. Waiting till this becomes blatant, will result in a Gather that is basically "circus".
I do not propose that humor or fun cannot be found in the library, and would assume that if such were well done, it would receive plenty of attention there. Please bear in mind that classification would be entirely up to the author.
For instance, if you want to engage in a serious discourse, you might be dismayed by articles on recipes or jokes. Just the same, if you want to write jokes or share recipes, you might be intimidated by all the weighty articles out there.
and John replies:
You gots it. That's exactly what I'm aiming at.
Why is it that food writing is being equated with jokes or fluff in this type articles?
In the last 24 hours this has happened twice. I'm getting thoroughly fed up with this trend in thinking.
I am most serious about my food writing and I earn a living at it. I do not consider my food articles fluff. It takes time to do the research I do, test the recipes and put it together into what I hope will be enjoyable reading material for anyone who happens to stop by. If you must equate writing about food with other type writing, please do not lump it with fluff or jokes.
Terminology is very difficult on this subject. Again, classification would be up to the author, and if they felt their article would be better received on one side, they could choose it to be so. If they felt it would be worth it to place it on both sides, there would be nothing preventing them. this would merely be an "atmospheric" division, not a "solid wall".
Sorry, I should have spoken more explicitly; I don't think it is fair to call any form of writing "fluff" in it's entirety, and I've tried to avoid that. I think Andrew was referring more to the kind of "Which is better; french fries or onion rings?" sort of thing. I find some articles on food to be highly instructive and enlightening.
I don't think food writing should be dismissed as disdainfully as some of you do.
I will make it a point to speak in defense of this art, when I see it wrongfully besmirched, thank you for sticking to your guns.
I don't see why it would be difficult for Gather to institute a system wherein the author can post to only one category, or to use a flagging system.
Seems like an easy solution to me!
Thanks for the good thoughts. Yeah, names are not a big thing I don't think, you've got the idea. The problem with restricting to one side posting would be enforcement, and the definition of "the same" article. I doubt if Gather is at all interested in endless nitpicking and hairsplitting. I figure it may not be a real problem, but one could always try it without the restriction first and see.
And there's definitely more than two factions.
For some, one form of interchange is preferred most all the time. For others, their feeling varies from day to day, minute to minute. But when one is wishing to indulge their mind in thoughtful, well developed concepts and insights, it can be annoying, even frustrating, to be distracted by the more impulsive side of social interchange. And if one is interested in a more free flowing carnival like experience, the presence of voices that are expressing intricate, or profound insights and analysis, can be deflating to the sense of openness and and casual interaction.
The difference is, I believe, one we all feel, but rarely actually think about. It is not directly related to happiness vs sadness, sorrow vs joy, fun vs work. It seems to have more to do with the degree to which we wish to linger on our perceptions and thoughts. Whether we are seeking the company of intimate friends, with whom we can explore the "nooks and crannies" of our existence and creative expressions. Or we are seeking the company of casual companions and fellow citizens in the society as a whole, sharing the busy lives, and varied interests that make us unique individuals with different opinions and styles.
One is not better than the other. One is not more moving or exciting than the other. They just don't mix very well. When we are contemplative and introspective, the sounds and sights of the wider world can be distracting. And when we are "out and about", drinking in the the aromas and textures or our fellow journeyers and world-mates, the revelations and highly developed conclusions of deep explorations by those involved in careful discussions can be tethering and limiting.
I do not propose segregating these forms of interaction by individuals or groups, but simply by time and a short distance. Perhaps one gets their fill of the carnival of this worlds hustle and bustle in their offline life, and they come to share in the company of others that wish to discuss the details of things they are concerned about. Digging deeper into the nuance and meaning of our existence. This can be through anything from philosophic treatments of human tragedy, to hilarious witty jabs and caresses of the absurd twisting of personal reactions to each others mental meanderings.
Perhaps one lives a life that burdens one with the need to move carefully and soberly through their day, and they come to explore the feelings and activities of the people that they are stimulated by, sharing the ins and out of any manner of life's varied demands and pleasures. This might mean anything from exchanging recipes for a family feast, to offering sympathy to a bereaved parent, to laughing at a silly joke.
I don't propose we divide our membership, but provide a means of accommodating the altering moods and yearnings of us all.
Now if you can just work out the kinks, and the "Powers that be" here on Gather pay attention, I think alot of people searching for different things on the site would be accommodated, and this would probably be a much more enjoyable experience for all involved..You should really submit this idea to the staff...It's good !!
You have put considerable thought, time and observation into this recommendation. My views are somewhat cynical though as to whether this would be a workable solution. Members on Gather want to be read, recognized, and rewarded for their efforts. As within the current system, some members will do whatever they can to achieve these goals. This includes the publication of content to unrelated groups, incorrect use of tags, among other techniques. Some of this activity is unintentional, brought about through a lack of understanding combined with inadequate/ambiguous system capabilities. However, there is also commensurate activity that is intentional, yet without any mitigating factors, or remedies.
Thus, this proposed system will be abused (intentionally and otherwise) in the same manner in which the current labeling/identification processes are on Gather. The delineation of 'Serious Writing' and 'Food for Thought' is also far too nebulous to be very effective, and many members will just post to both (if they can) in order to obtain more visibility. Also, without some means of 'reigning in' abuse of the system, it will very quickly lose all meaning.
This entire issue will also take on a new perspective when the content recommendation system is implemented. This will do away with 'ratings' and should bring more credibility back to the 'Highest Rated' articles and images. However, the task of finding new 'Gather Gold' will still be an issue. Therefore, other means of finding content on Gather must be embraced.
Today, hundreds of articles are published on Gather per day. In the near future, it is possible that the same quantity of articles will be published per hour. This will virtually render the 'Recent Articles' listing meaningless, and it will become an ineffective way of finding new content on Gather. Hence, we must look beyond the scope of where we are today, in order to arrive at solutions that are workable for tomorrow.
I appreciate your thoughts on this, and do not argue with your general convictions, especially with regards to the eventual burgeoning of content, which will make all forms of classification more problematic. The solution I pose is as much a statement of the duality of intent that I see fueling much of the friction lately, as it is a serious proposal for taking action to dampen its effects.
Of course some will abuse such a format intentionally, and others out of ignorance. I see a possibility to minimize the return on investment by exploiters and a rather abrupt education by the unobservant. Much would depend on users resisting the urge to comment in an article's thread about its inappropriate positioning, and getting word out that this is counterproductive is actually the biggest educational issue I would foresee. If this restraint could become the norm fairly quickly, I believe the mis-characterization by intent or error would soon become rare. There would simply be no payoff.
Whatever is done to classify articles more clearly will be subject to abuse, and counting on policing or penalties, envisions a kind of oversight that is both unlikely to occur, and is prone to endless haggling. What I'm doing here, is opening the discussion to concepts that are community driven, and can naturally strengthen over time. Removing motivation to cheat, or remain blithely unaware of the unwelcomeness of poorly placed articles seems such a concept.
I don't wish to be condescending, but few seem to have grasped the de-motive quality of the basic concept I present, and repeatedly sight the tendencies this idea is designed to make less attractive. An analogy might be draw to laws which create an "atmospheric" barrier in the flow of traffic on roadways. Of course there are cheaters and fools, but by and large the acceptance of this "non- solid" partition by motorists, creates it's own incentive, regardless of police oversight. It simply isn't an attractive alternative in most situations, to violate the lines.
Please take the following as a 'tongue-in-cheek' example of my thoughts on this subject....
Perhaps a more effective way for me to express my view on your proposal, is to expand upon it. Instead of breaking Gather into two parts, it should perhaps be broken into 8 parts, or 10, or 12, or more. One 'part' could then be reserved for poetry, one for jokes, one for technical stuff, and fiction, and perhaps another for daily blog entries or muses, among others. This would then allow members to more easily identify the content that is of most interest to them. Members could also be allowed to define their own category, if none existed which fit their content. This would provide greater flexibility overall, and allow for the expansion of Gather into hither-to-unknown areas of cyberspace, accommodating a great variety of applications and material.
Each 'part' of Gather could then be defined with a label. Perhaps calling it a 'tag'. Then, members could search for content using these 'tags'. This would a very effective means of finding content, and tailoring searches to a members area of interest.
Thus, I think that Gather should implement 'tags' for identifying content. Then, implement a way for members to add tags effectively to their articles and images, and then educate members on the proper use of these tags. This, combined with a comprehensive and easy to use search mechanism, would be an excellent way to resolve many of the issues Gather suffers from today.
While my words may be facetious, my intent is not. I believe that the existing tagging system can work to resolve many concerns. However, it must be more effectively managed, across the spectrum of Gather's processes. If done properly, Gather can easily accommodate a flood tide of new content, and members, while keeping us all sane at the same time.
All right, you asked for it !
I'm kidding too, and I appreciate your view, but you're so techy about this. Most people aren't just looking for a particular subject, or point of view. They're often interested in the "buzz" around here. What folks are up to, what new things are being written about, or discussed. They are often exploring the "space", and hoping for a bit of adventure. That's what the community thing is all about.
Remember, this is a site about creativity, not research. Tags will get me anything on the internet, but they won't get me a place where familiar minds are interacting across different subjects and developing new insights and perspectives I can be a part of. It is this interplay of people that makes this site addictive. The sense of belonging to a vibrant community. Tags will not make that happen.
DON"T get me wrong, you're a vital part of this community, and a valuable aid to the experience of many members. But this particular problem ain't about tech, even though good tech can help resolve it. So...tell me; how hard would it be to create a two sided Gather?...
As I suppose it always has been, and will be, with humans.
Thanks for your input, and keep up your good work.
For the less technically inclined, even tho Gather is a website, it's also a large database. Think of it as a huge filing cabinet. The groups are the drawers. In those drawers are many folders that can be arranged in various ways. (By tag, by recent, by comment, etc.) Each time we apply a filter, we rearrange the folders in the drawers. Our articles can be a part of a whole lot of different folders, depending on how we arrange them. It's not a perfect example, but it may help to understand the process when trying to come up with a solution to a weighty problem.
If you suddenly split your filing system into two different cabinets, someone has to sort out all those files and decide which cabinet they belong in.
The second problem is with articles just like this one. Which side does it go on? And, if you post it to both the comments will be separated as well. You've got double duty to criss cross back and forth answering them all AND your audience doesn't have the benefit of the other ideas already submitted.
And of course, as has already been mentioned, people will just post to both sides in an effort to gain a larger audience. While the serious writers may not do this, those who are simply point whoring will. It might be somewhat self correcting, but with that many articles and that many publishers, it's going to get away from us before too long, just as it is now.
There's got to be a solution and this is a decent start, but I'm afraid in practice it won't hold up. As I mentioned in Cena's article, I'll put my brain on it. There HAS to be way!
Thank you once again for your most thoughtful comment.
It's good that you bring up the standing database and the need for any solution to take it's state into account. My thoughts on this are based on simply letting them remain in the "un-categorized state they are, available from either "side". The partition would only apply to subsequent submissions and effect current lists of recent articles and comments. That is where the "community" exists, and where the friction seems most noticeable.
However, I am not convinced of this initial ideas feasibility by any means, merely it's goals worthiness; Maintaining the "old school", writer/thinker based part of Gather in some form. Your turning that obviously powerful mind on this problem of swamping the quality writing with "chat room" socializing, and the subsequent fading of the cadre of excellent authors, is something that, if indicative of a growing awareness of this dreary possible future, alone makes my attempts here worthwhile.
Kevin, however, inadvertently brought up a good point. It wasn't until I had a chance to finish reading all these comments that it hit me. He was using TAGS in his analogy, but I think that GROUPS work better in it!
What if there were a main page index of groups with their short descriptions? What if that INDEX were categorized by topic? (Politics, Parenting, Critter Corner, Laugh of the Day, Culinary Treats, Blogs, etc.) What if the group owners took a more vigilant stance on publication within them? What if we all dropped our memberships to groups whose owners failed to keep the content on topic? (What if points weren't awarded for creating groups in the first place, removing the incentive for so much duplication and lax editing?) What if "Recent Articles" as a filter, was sub-divided into the same categories as groups, allowing us to see what's new in a particular CATEGORY, not just the whole of Gather?
From a technical standpoint, this wouldn't be that difficult. I forget whether or not you are required to place tags in your group when you create it, but it shouldn't be hard to introduce a line for that. But for groups, unlike articles, make the tag limited to a drop down list. The list simply contains the categories on the index page. The group owner may only choose the ONE that best fits the intent of the group. From there, it could be automatically added to the index without further intervention from management. The Recent Articles tab contains the same drop down list, allowing us to choose to see what's new WHERE, without sorting through things that do not interest us. It's a fairly simple change, automated from there. End of Gather's responsibility for it.
On our end, each group's owner would only have to go back and add the category, effectively introducing it into the index and thereby categorizing all of the articles published to the group, past, present and future. We would remain an indepdenent group of minds, self policing and self managing. By our actions, we can pressure the group owners into staying vigilant. By the group owner's actions, publishers are pressured to stay vigilant. It's a self correcting cycle that neither creates more work for the folks upstairs, nor undue confusion in the ranks.
What do you think?
(I'm going to post this on the other article as well, just to grab feedback and see if it could actually work that way.)
I like. I'll have to give it more thought, but from what I have thus far been able to imagine, this approach will at least result in some thinning of "clutter" for everyone. It would also seem to provide a modifiable basis for accomodating future growth, and response to feedback...
And you call me "too kind" !
Perceptive sounds more accurate in this instance.
I haven't stopped thinking about this either, but the more I do think about it, the more excited I get about the possibilities. I think it's exactly your idea, combined with Kevin's tongue in cheek idea of splitting it into far more than "two," but in a way that allows the necessary cross over. It lets you decide easily whether you feel like "library" or "circus" at that particular moment and reasonably effectively stops the ridiculous combinations of the two.
I hope someone will comment with the downside and the holes in it so that it can be molded into a plan good enough to take upstairs!
You know where the "suggested tag" list appears as you're getting ready to submit your article? (Before more suggestions are given based on your first choices?) Why couldn't that include the index list of categories too? It would give people a great place to start in learning to use them to identify their articles, and it would give readers a great place to start in finding content. It would cut down on misspellings, alternate versions of the same thing (politics vs political, poem vs. poetic etc.) and narrow the work of the search a great deal.
Out damned spot! I must sleep!
(Did I mention this is all your fault? Yet another restless night spent dreaming of database linkages, queries and data refinement. Thanx A LOT!)
Giving better incentives, points wise, to both the writers and commenters of quality material can ensure retaining and improving upon the "old school personality" of Gather. This may, however, cause some resentment among the school that is discriminated against.
My idea was based strictly on the author's judgment of where the article would do best. I know, the first thought is that everyone would "cheat". Within this thread is my reasoning why that would not be true. Few seem to grasp it, but that's just my take.
Messing with the point system could get really messy. It's already kind of complicated.
Leaving it up to the author, though I grasp your point, really does count on said author having the mindset of the old school. The newbs who don't know anything about it won't see the difference, or know that i's important, much less why. Sure they could be educated in time, but who is going to wade through it all to make it happen? Just another $.02 from the nut gallery.
There may be a way to generate the essential "force" toward increasing the the impact of "quality writing" in a rather simple way. It is dealt with in A Force for Quality on Gather