To Spank Or Not To Spank

At least give her a time-out!! The fourth little girl sounds like a future Oscar winner!

Just a note to explain the situation: the girls are relatives of my friend and this will be a permanent situation.

LC C - You're right...the little one is all about drama. But she is really precious and has lots of good qualities. I don't want to make her sound like a brat.

I do not think that spanking is helpful. Consistent rewards and punishments are key. I have to stress that it is consistent. If time out is not effective, then continue to take more and more away. Toddlers are a lot smarter than some may give them credit. They can wrap a mom or dad around their little finger to get their way. They soon learn what a response to a behavior will be either good or bad. If the parent is concerned, then I would suggest that she speak to her pediatrician in addition to other parents.

I have 4 children and I do approve of spanking in some instances. I do not think it should be the mainstay for each and every thing, just the ones kids HAVE to learn to stay safe. Your friend needs to check the laws in the area where she lives, some states are adding laws about it, California just put one in I think.
Touching the stove, running into the street, going outside without supervision, going into the garage (not usually a safe place for kids under the age of 6 unattended.). These are all potentially VERY dangerous and things I spank for.

With my 2 and 4 year olds they are VERY stubborn and act like twins. They are just barely over a year apart and they depend on each other for back up and tend to lead each other on to see who can wait the longest before listening. My 4 year old burned her arm on an oil heater at a friends house because they were both daring each other to touch it. It was a big burn and had to be treated at the ER. I wish now that I had spanked them both the first time they ran up to it. I do not make that mistake now when dealing with things that may harm them.

Most of the time putting them in the corner or sitting them down for a time out, just pauses what they are doing, does not effect them because they can see (peeking) and hear all that is going on around them. Time outs work better for me when I make them go sit in their beds and they are totally seperated from the rest of the family for a few minutes. I definately think 3 is old enough to understand being "grounded" off of certain things. Mine react to being grounded off of cartoons, coloring, boardgames, and having an early bedtime. This one hits home when they see the other 3 staying up while they are going to bed, this is also a good time to remind what they did, and how they are not going to do it again.

As for positive reinforcement, I have started thanking my 4 year old daughter when she does what I ask, giving her big hugs and acting it out like she just did the most amazing thing. I only do this if she does it the first time I ask, if she does not than I ask a second time, the third she goes to time out. When I let her out (about 5 minutes later) I tell her that when I ask her to do something, or tell her to, she needs to do it to be a good girl. I than think of something to have her do so she gets a chance to re-earn her good big girl status.

I hope this sheds a little light. I know that spanking is not for everyone, and I rarely resort to it myself, but there are those instances. Also, tell her to keep in mind that every child reacts differently to different things, and if the girl is going through a lot of changes still, spanking may not be the way to go until there is a set bond built. You do not want to break trust with it.
One last thought, if the three older girls seem well behaved, ask them how they were punished when they did things they were not supposed to. Might bring up some things that have not been tried, yet.
Sorry this is so long, I am kind of rambling tonight.

Another thing, to me spankings mean a swat on the bottom, not welts and bruises. Just to clarify.... I don't want anyone thinking I am advocating HITTING a child. There is a huge difference.

Thank you for this valuable advice.

Sue..a visit to the pediatrician is a great idea.

Shawnee, your advise is great. My friend is trying very hard to be consistent and knows that is so important. And our definitions of spanking are the same. Your advice about limiting it to those issues with safety are very good.

I used to take a hanger and beat the table! then they realized she's not going to hit us!! But yeah, a swap on the behind or hand is acceptable to me.

When dealing with children who have been raised in the balance of your family, occasional spanking used as a last resort consequence may be acceptable. It is strongly discouraged for children who have been removed from home under adverse circumstances who may be experiencing unresolved separation anxiety.

I think that spanking (a swat to the bottom) is totally acceptable to reinforce the message the parent is trying to give to the child. Most of my generation (I was born in the 60's) were spanked and we didn't have half the behavior problems that subsequent generations have had. Spanking definitely encourages a learning curve...

When my children were little, I used the swat on the bottom with my hand, never used anything else. But only resort to that in cases where misbehaviour endangers the child. The best deterrant I have heard was used on my sister. She was making a fuss, whining loudly and then crying at the table when relatives were visiting. When she started howling, everyone at the table, on cue, did the same. She was so astounded, she stopped immediately and was her usual good little self again.

Ruth...that's so funny!

We believe in spanking for things that can harm the child or if they are totally out of control to regain control again so to speak...

We have implemented positive behavior where you focus entirely on everything good the child does and try to ignore the bad stuff... Ok, so we have gone through tons of counseling and this is what they have told us to do... i cannot see ignoring all the bad things like they suggested as there are times parents just need to intervene so the child and others will be safe.

When using timeout though, here is my suggestion.. put them in timeout for the bad behavior etc... wait 3 minutes and ask the child if they are ready to do what you asked them to do or quit doing what they were doing... if they are not ready.. they sit for another 3 minutes till they are ready to comply...

My son is ADHD and even as a toddler he showed signs of what you are talking about... and more actually, but he did a lot of that. At first, I did not want to use meds and thought discipline totally could control it. As he became older, he became stronger and the safety of his other siblings became a problem as long as safety for myself, so we opted for the meds and they have done a wonderous thing for us. We no longer have the hours of battles just to get him to pick up his socks off the floor and put them where they belong.

You may want to discuss your options with a physician and have her tested to make sure there is not an underlying problem she cannot tell you about.

There is a program online that is really good and has helped us with time out .. it is called time out tots... great program in helping kids understand what is bad and why they need to behave.

Trish, we are in the same boat. I have to agree with her. Well said.

Thanks Trish. We had not of that at such a young age. We will look into it.

I agree with shawnee on this one.
spanking should be a swat not anything that leaves marks. My children are all grown up and when they talked to me badly they got soap in their mouths. when they were getting into something they shouldn't they got there hands touched like the oven situation I would slap their hand and say no its hot it will burn you do not touch. I also had a belt called chucky when the kids did something realy realy bad they got a swat with chucky. mind you just enough of a swat to let them know who was in charge but never a beaten. Most of the time just the belt hanging there and me saying you had better stop that or I will get chucky was all that was needed. I think it always hurts the parent more then the punishment hurts the children I mean lets get real we don't want to have to use chucky or get the soup out and make them put it in their mouth. We don't want to smak a little hand when it is reaching for something hot or swat a toddlers behind when they are running twords a busy street and wont stop. But these things are needed or how will a child ever learn right from wrong?
I also believe a child learns from the ones older then them like older sisters and adults in their life. The child in question sounds like she is just testing her boundrie so give them to her and stick with it.
Hope this all helps.
Now that I have rambled on LOL let me also say that you were recently at my gather sit and wanted me to start an caregiving group. I have one here on gather called caregiving helpline. It is to help all caregivers of the elderly and disabled.
I also edited my last post on my gather home page and corrected the link to my web site.
Thanks
Jewel

I meant to say my group is called caregivers helpline

Wow, Amanda, the responses here were so interesting. I don't have kids and in this instance, glad that I don't have to deal with issues like whether or not to spank. I am often amazed at those nanny shows on TV and how they are able to change children's behavior so easily (or at least what appears to be easy).

I have watched maybe 6 episodes of Nanny 911 and it looked like most of the changes were made with the parents and not so much with the kids. 9 times out of 10 a behavior is caused by the parent, unless the child has a medical reason for it or the child is learning things outside of the home. I am glad there are things like this that might get parents to stop and think, and maybe start being a better parent. (For those parents that need to do better that is.)

My four children were never spanked. I don't believe in hitting for discipline, teaching or resolving conflict-- and I didn't want them to hit--so I didn't do it. I talked. I talked a lot. I also used this advice given to me by someone older when I needed to discipline my kids: "Lead by example, correct with compassion, and teach with love."

I think that a swat on the tushie is needed at times ... not beating, of course, rather a swat with the hand on the rear.

Discipline is a tough area ... there are so many opinions, and what works for one may not work for another. Some go overboard with punishment (did you see the mom on one of those nanny shows recently who punished her son for not blowing his nose, for example), while let their kids go out of control, like those folks who were removed from that Air Tran flight recently, because the 3 year old was out of control -- and the parents were on the news outraged that they and their angel were booted from the plane.

If the little girl continues to not listen, she needs to realize there are consequences. If a time out or having things taken away don't phase her, perhaps a light swat on the rear would get her attention.

I think that spanking is on of the most disgusting things imaginable. What on earth would possess you to strike your child? There is NO difference whether you say its a "swat on the bottom" or a spank. Either way you put it, what you are doing is hitting. People try to soften it by using terms like "swat" to make themselves feel better about what they are doing. Spanking does not work, and here are the following reasons

1. What you are doing does not teach your child a damn thing. When it comes down to it, you are frustrated and taking that out physically on your child, you just won't admit it. Seriously, how many times have I been in Wal*Mart and seen some parent repeatedly say, "Johnny, get back over here," then finally get mad and hit- I'm sorry, "spank"- them? More than I can count

2. One of the big responsibilities of parenthood is to train you child. That sounds a little bizarre, but if you train them right from the beginning, you should have very little urge to smack your child

3. Exactly what are you teaching them other than to fear you? Are you sitting them down and saying, "Now, Johnny, mommy is going to hit you because she loves you!" and then start spanking with a big grin on your face, completely 100% without any feelings of anger? NO. You hit your, and they don't understand, especially small children. Even so, say your child is, I don't know, 8 years old, and they are acting up in the store. You yell and hit them. What kind of role model are you? You get down to the kid's level and explain to the the dangers of reckless behavior, and then remove them from the store. THAT is TEACHING. Your job as a parent is to teach and guide. Quoted by Michael Marsall, PhD, "The word discipline, comes from the root word disciplinare —to teach or instruct. What do we teach when we use corporal punishment?" Which brings me to my next point

4. Spanking is an act of laziness on the parent's part. You are too lazy to teach them right from wrong, you are too frustrated with them so instead of removing your self from the situation and taking a breather, you spank them in the name of discipline, and you are too lazy to actually think about what you are doing

5. It's not even your right to spank your child, but that's too long to get into, so go to http://www.wethechildren.com/spankingenglish.htm

I think any one who hits their child should rot in Hell. It's not okay, what in the world makes you think it's okay? Because you got spanked and turned out fine. That's the same answer everyone gives. And don't even try to pull that "kids are brats these days because no one spanks." Read some literature on the subject and you will find that since 1950, spanking has only gone down 9%. Also, don't say "you're 19, wait til you are a parent and you will understand." I have plenty of experience in child-rearing, definitely NOT saying I know everything and that I will be the perfect parent. That is unrealistic. I have raised my 17 month old niece since birth, I have worked in a preschool for underprivileged children with emotional handicaps, and for two and a half years I was a private tutor for children and young adolescents with learning disabilities. I know what it's like to get frustrated with a child, I know what it's like to want to pull your hair out and scream at them to shut up. Take a breather and consider what you are doing before you do it, that's all I can say. And seriously check out http://www.wethechildren.com/spankingenglish.htm

My three year old ignores me when I tell her to do something. I have to force her to do it. I will say, "let's do this together" or something like that. Other times she will do something without being asked and I am amazed!
When it comes to serious danger I will hit a hand. My 7 month old son keeps trying to put his fingers in fans. I smack his fingers and yell, "OUCH!" It hurts his feelings so I make sure to give him lots of hugs and kisses when I move him to something fun and safe. When I do it I will also bring another one of my kids over and ask them to try to touch it too. I tell them to hold their hand there so that I can hit it and explain why. Then they do it, I smack their hand and yell, "OUCH!" so he understands that it happens to anyone who does it.
I do this for a reason. We have a gravity furnace in our house. This means that we have a giant grate in the floor between our living room and dining room. There isn't a lot of room to get around it- about two feet total. In the winter it is the sole unit for heating the whole house so it gets VERY hot. I would tell my daughter it was hot (I would yell HOT everytime she got near it) but that wasn't enough. One day she ran over it and got a second degree burn on her foot. After that she was too scared to get near it and would slow down and walk around it saying "hot". NOW she understood! A second time she fell and her hand landed on it and burned. When it starts to get cooler out I am going to do the same with the heater that I do with the fan because I don't want any more trips to the ER because I wasn't serious enough about it.

Violence is never okay with children. Children should feel safe with their caregiver. I have a few times raised my voice around my children and ended up asking for their forgiveness at the end of the day. I was spanked beyond what was needful as a child and I feel very stongly about this topic. I don't think that spanking is really going to change anything because it only scares the child from doing it, doesn't train the child to think about why that is not a good idea. I think that spanking is something parents turn to when they don't want to be responsible and spend the required time needed to train a child with their child. I like to talk with my children about the world around us. I don't let any subject be taboo in our house because this how we process information. Talking about it and piecing information together. Sure you may want to sensor some words around your children, but be honest with them about everything and they will return the favor.