Is it considered child abuse if you give a child a smidgen of hot sauce on their finger to help stop them from picking their nose?
This is why I ask...
My grand daughter would constantly pick her nose, she is 3. I know all kids go through this stage in life; I have 3 kids of my own.
She knows it is wrong, yet she continues to go hide behind or under any thing she can find to do her deed, despite of her mothers attempts at trying to stop this, including a 3 min time out in the corner, or in a chair, taking away her favorite toy, and the last resort a spanking. This is only a slight tap on the bottom.
I took it upon my self to do something similar to the "old ways" of discipline. Ex: wash mouth out with soap, pepper on the tongue, etc.
What I did was take her by the hand, calmly asked her what she was doing. She cried out, "are you gonna spank me nanny?" I said no, I am not going to spank you. She says, "I was picking my nose." Are you supposed to pick your nose? I said. No, she says, it's nasty. That's right it is nasty.
After that I picked her up and carried her in the kitchen, set her on the counter and got the Tabasco sauce out of the cabinet. I took the lid off and got her finger and just turned the bottle upside down, so that there was just a trace of it on her finger. (Like a woman does with a perfume bottle) I then had her taste it. I thought about the pepper on the tongue, but she knows what the pepper is and would have put up one hell of a fight.
Once she got a taste of it, she started crying that it was hot. I told her yes it was hot, and that I give it to her for being bad and picking her nose when she knows it is nasty. I calmly asked her if she was going to pick her nose again. Still crying because it was hot, she said no. I then gave her a drink to help wash away the hot feeling she had. I did not let it burn that long, and remind you, there was really not enough on her finger that would burn for a long time anyway.
This lasted for a few days, and then she decided to crawl under the kitchen table and do it again. Her mother took her in and put a dab on her lip this time.
Needless to say, while at my house she has never picked her nose again. She runs to me now and says, "Nanny I need tissue!"
My grand daughter told a relative of hers on her father's side about what I had done. The G. Uncle called my daughter and told her that this was child abuse and he would not tolerate it, and if I did it again he would turn me in. Then the G. Uncle called MY mother and discussed the matter with her, emailed his nephew (my son-in-law) got him all upset as well. Great Uncle used to come by here to pick up the kids from time to time, at my daughters approval, but he has not been by here since he made this ridiculous accusation towards me. He refuses to face me. G Uncle told my daughter that he would not come over here any more. Because, He is afraid I know what he had said. (That is what my daughter told me he said)
My daughter asked me not to do it again, so I haven't, because of this, and she herself has not done it either.
If any of you have read my other article; is my granddaughters great uncle a pedophile, you might see some similarities. It is the same man I am talking about. It is possible that he senses my suspicions, and did this to keep his distance from me to hide his actions?
What do you think? Please give me your input on this. Do you think it is child abuse? Do you think he did this purposely?
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Comments: 26
I don't know you, so I can't say much about your relationship with your family, but I can tell you that if my mother ever did any of those things to even my 9 year old daughter.. Well she would never be alone with my daughter again, and frankly, if it was a man I would knock him the &%# out.
You want my input. Yes I believe he did this purposely, and I think most people would have made the call.
With that being said, the deal with the tabasco sauce, for starters there is nothing wrong with it since you and your daughter have tried time-outs, spanking and other forms of disipline. What you supposed to do? Let her eat away and do it out in public? No, that makes people sick and wonder what type of parenting skills you and your daughter has. Right?
As far as the G. Uncle being a pedophile, well why on earth would you or your daughter want him around that child to begin with? I say goodbye and sorry to have known you you sick b*stard!!!! Let them all talk and complain and when they do that to everyone OTHER than you or your daughter, then you can call them up and ask "Is there something you wish to confront me about?". When they say what is on their mind, tell them that their opinion is like a**holes, everyone has one and what would they suggest to stop her from picking and eating from her nose? Tell them that it really isn't any of their concern and if they feel the need to call social services, then you are sure they could find the number in any phone book.
Social Services would surely side with you since you didn't put any more than what you said on that little girls finger. I mean if you POURED it in her mouth that is one thing, but to dab it on there....what the heck is the big deal? She has stopped that nasty habit so mark it down as a suggestion to other parents that go through that same problem.
If anyone thinks that that is child abuse, especially adults that like little children in a very inappropriate way, then to h*ll with them. Tell that sick idiot that he doesn't even need to be around you all anyways, especially that little girl. Tell him that while he thinks what you did was wrong, what he does or has done is sick, sick and more sick.
Good luck to you and your daughter and please keep us updated!
To those of you that think it was wrong, what if the child was picking up dog doo-doo and eating that? And you tried everything in the world to stop him/her from eating it. Would you just "let her/him grow out of that? OR would you try something like what your grandmother did to your mother, and your great-grandmother did to your grandmother and so on? Washing mouth out with soap, well that is fine too IF the child has a potty-mouth and a parent MUST watch and make sure that no soap is swallowed. I don't think any idiot would put soap in the child's mouth and leave it, the whole point is to "Wash the child's mouth OUT with soap". The DAB of tabasco sause is justified I think anyways.
Our great grand-parents used to lock people up in asylums to rot their lives away for having mental disabilities and feeling like there was nothing they could do. I don't think that was a good idea either. My point being, the ways of old, are outdated and unnescessary when today we have a much better understanding of the human mind and know how to deal with various issues in much more healthy and constructive ways. Teaching is better than hurting.
I was an abused child, and will never ever EVER agree that a child can not be taught right from wrong when done properly. If a child has some sort of mental issues that restrict their ability to adapt to normal behavior, then there are plenty of doctors out there.
My son has tourette's syndrome, ADHD, rage seizures and narcolepsy. He has no control over a lot of the things he does. How many times have I hit him? Zero. How would I feel about myself now if I had beaten him every time he started ranting on and on, swearing and just being off-the-wall, knowing now that his problems almost all stem from him having a rare blood disease called S-CAD which causes his body to turn short term fatty acids into ammonia, which for years poisoned his body and mind. I would feel pretty badly now, and thank God I had the patience and strength to deal with him. I know how hard it can be to maintain your composure in adverse situations, trust me.
When I said about my parents that I would not leave my daughter alone with my mother ever again, or that I would knock my step-father out.. There were other reasons behind this as well. Notice, I didn't say if YOU WERE MY MOTHER. :) I could have elaborated more on this in my first comment, but my initial thoughts still stand. I believe this was wrong, and anything that can hurt is bad.
However, I do not believe that it is appropriate to take the opposite tck and never discipline a child. Failure to enforce rules is also a form of abuse, or at least neglect.
The tiny dab of Tabasco you describe was not abuse. It was equivalent to a slap or two on the back of the child's hand. Which is alaso not abuse in a case of deliverate defiance. And it looks like this was deliberate defiance; she knew it was wrong and tried to hide by going under the table. Defiance is never, ever to be tolerated.
Pouring on the Tabasco is equivalent to lots of strokes with the belt or a flyswatter, i.e., abuse. The little dab is equivalent to a slap or two, not abuse.
Children do not just outgrow things if they are not given consistent discipleine and consequencees when they break rules. Which is why you see such little monsters controlling their parents on _Supernanny_. And why the public schools are full of spoiled, rotten little beasts who do not understand doing what they are told.
And yes, I do love children. Enough to think it is important to make the effort to make sure they acquire good behaviors from the earliest age.
Top doc backs picking your nose and eating it
http://web.archive.org/web/20041026221514/www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_903083.html?menu=1
"Innsbruck-based lung specialist Prof Dr Friedrich Bischinger said people who pick their noses with their fingers were healthy, happier and probably better in tune with their bodies."
Toddlers and Nose Picking
http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/11560.html
"The good news is that unlike nail biting, nose picking is a habit your child is unlikely to continue into adulthood. Most children eventually give it up on their own, either because they lose interest or because other kids tease them enough to make them want to stop."
I personally think a child picking their nose is gross but it is acceptable behavior to me. I would promote habits such as placing the pickings on a tissue and washing their hands afterwards before punishing them.
Mark L - I grew up in a big family. I have several cousins, etc. that picked their nose and now they are grown still do it! Have you ever been at a traffic light and look over at the car next to you and see them digging for gold? I assure you they did not just start picking their nose, it was a bad nasty, ugly habit from a young age. It had to be!
Mecal W.- You said that most children give it up on their own, well if my grand daughter knows it is wrong, and hides to do it, then she will continue to hide, and never out grow it, I mean if no one sees her, how can she be teased?
Angey T and Dorine- Thank you for understanding where I was coming from. And Angey, the great uncle works for human services, *sigh* If you have not yet read that atricle please do. Dorine- thanks for visualizing the method I used to place it on her finger, and seeing that the amount was very very small. I mean you could not even see it on her finger, just a tiny spot that had a slight reflection of light, from it being damp. I say damp, because there was not enough on her finger to even make it wet. You used the amount in comparison to a slap or two on the hand.. the amount was more if a 1 finger tap not even a full slap.
Sometimes I think we should go back to the old ways of dicipline. The kids now adays compared to kids back in the day... need I say anymore?
Telling her nose picking is "nasty" does this mean she is nasty? Believe me this is how she now sees herself.
Why not tell her the facts. That it is not socially acceptable to pick ones nose in front of others.
You think she won't understand, not so, she already understands you think she is nasty.
Children with allergies and constant congestion know how to unplug their nose. You can teach them another way.
Burning her skin with pepper sauce and calling her nasty is more harmful than nose picking.
Why does anyone in your family allow any child or children to be with the pedophile when another adult is not present?
You have asked for comments, those are mine.
Spanking, the taste of hot sauce or the taste of soap is not abuse! Truly good parents have to do things sometime that they really do not want to do to drive home important points with their children and leave lasting memories with the child when all else has failed and the cooperation of the child has not been achieved.
Parents have the responsibility to instill the values in their children that they will need as adults and those of you who refuse to properly raise your children are doing them a great disservice that will come back some day and point a large finger at you as being a failure as a parent.
As a former Juvenile Officer working through the Juvenile Courts in the state of Tennessee I can state as a fact; of the hundreds and hundreds of children who I personally worked with, because they had run afoul of the law, only a very few of them had parents who had ever physically disciplined them.
Parents who refuse to physically punish a child when they have earned physical punishment are the predominant reason that children and many young adults today have no respect for themselves or others and know within themselves that they can do whatever they wish to do simply because they wish to do it because a spineless parent has taught them to be selfish and self centered.
Raise and teach your boys to grow up as gentlemen and your girls to grow up and be ladies who are respectful of themselves and others and you'll see the juvenile detention centers mostly empty. You'll see dramatic declines in the numbers of teen aged sexually transmitted diseases and the numbers of children having children will fall to near zero. I have known several 12 and 13 year old mothers and there is nothing more sad than a child with a baby.
Elizabeth F., continue to use the hot sauce and, as a last resort, when necessary, those infrequent fanny paddlings and you'll have an adult granddaughter who you can be totally proud of some day because she will be be a true lady and those are becoming very rare.
As for the other...
They do not believe he is a pedophile, so they see no harm in her being with him. His wife is usually nearby, as she herself does not see his actions as being wrong.
Thank you for your comments, but I have to disagree with you.
So when you are dealing with these juvenile offenders and they are not doing what they are told, do you hit them?
You'll just have to take my word on this, I do not punish children with violence, and no one who knows me would consider me in any way spineless. My children do not throw tantrums in public places or any other embarrasing moments like you mentioned either. They are not perfect angels either, but they understand consequences without the fear of being hurt.
Elizabeth F. you do not sound like an abusive person to me. You wanted opinions and I gave mine. I do think the physical approaches are the wrong choice, but I don't think you sound like an an evil granny with a switch in one hand and a swirling bucket of hot sauce in the other.
In the state of Arkansas they still allow striking children in school by select individuals, are there any other states that allow this?
I should of made one thing clear. She is in a preschool, or day care if you will. It is not a regular school system.
You are also right about one thing, I am not an evil granny, I love my kids and grand kids more then life itself. They are what I live for. If you peek at my photos, 99% of them are of my kids and grand kids! I just cannot be more proud!
The child probably has allergies, it is not normal to always have excess mucus.
Take her to see an allergist, teach her how to clear her nose so she can breathe properly.
This has nothing to do with bad nasty habits, she is old enough to learn how to use a saline nose mist when she wakes up in the morning to loosen the dried mucus, she can then blow her nose.
Since she isn't in school, around noon and before bedtime is another time to help her clear her nasal passages.
Search for the latest scholastic achievements in developed and developing nations and you'll find the United States of America way down toward the bottom of the list in many areas.
When children are born, they, like any other infant mammal, know nothing, they must be taught and if they are not taught they can not learn enough to be reasoned with. How can some people think that it is possible to reason with a child who has never been taught to be reasonable in the first place?
In Sweeden it is against the law to hit a child. Students in Sweeden test way above U.S. Students, in all subjects.
I wonder how you determine when a child has been hit enough times or hard enough to be corrected.
Hitting is not the only form of abuse,
There is
Neglect: Which will cause "failure to thrive"
This means that infants that are not held and cuddled do not develope,
Verbal abuse: Calling a child nasty, lazy, ugly, etc.
Very harmful
Being in an environment where there is a lot of conflilct.
Parents and siblings fighting and screaming and cursing.
Yes, when children are born they have an undeveloped brain that is a total learning machine. They are learning long before they can speak. So from the moment of birth they are taking up the activities, language, behavior around them.
Children are what they are exposed to from the moment of birth forward. You cannot blame society on the outcome of your child. But if you insist that a child must be hit and called names, you will raise a harmed and limited human with the desire to hit and name call.
That link is to a very good article on our behavior by a gather.com writer who posts many thoughtful articles.
However, I don't think Liz wanted help or information so much as she sought acceptance and approval for her behavior to her granddaughter.
Some of you have told her what she did was ok so she can feel ok about it.
As for hitting and calling children names, perhaps the next time your children are misbehaving you should hit yourself.
I still say this child has allergies, and has learned how to use the tool she was born with to clean her nose so she can breathe.
No where did I see where Elizabeth wants to help the child learn to keep her nose clear so she can breathe.
She just did not want to go get a tissue, she rather hide and pick it! Not anymore... she now has no problem gettin a tissue or asking me for her nose medicine as she puts it. So my efforts worked!
Nowhere has it even been mentioned that anyone told the baby that she was nasty. Nobody has raised their voice to the baby. The baby has not been grabbed, shaken, smacked, cursed at or in any other way been psychologically or emotionally abused. We are talking about the application of perhaps a microgram of Tabasco Sauce which isn't all that hot in the first place. I'm sure that it is much better tasting that that home made lye soap that I used to get to chew when I was a kid. I always did have pretty white teeth though.
Gawd woman, some of the OTC products that are used to stop nail biting or thumb sucking contain capsicum oils and that crap will melt lead!
As for the number of licks that constituted a spanking, I always found that one was enough to get the attention and cooperation of my six kids and the same number seems to be working nicely with my ten grandchildren and my one great grandmunchkin.
I assume that you were thinking of the Swedish law that was passed in 1979 in an attempt to reduce the world's highest child abuse rate for any civilized(?) country.
If you'll spend a couple of minutes doing research, you'll find that it is a dismal failure for the most part. More recent Swedish data indicate a 489% increase in child abuse statistics from 1981 through 1994, as well as a 672% increase in assaults by minors against minors.
TAG! Now it's your turn.