Fiction Reads--What Would You Recommend?

Here's a little known fact about me. My favorite author is (don't tell anyone) ...Sidney Seldon. Once I start one of his books I can't put it down.

Mysteries. I am addicted.

I am looking for really good writing in any genre.

I just finished William Gibson's "Pattern Recognition." I'd wanted to read it because from the descriptions I thought it might be a good point of comparison for my own book (to use in that evil query letter, you see!). It was, in many ways. Some of the thematic concerns were so similar to my own that I just shook my head (there was even a scene in a Starbucks! You'll find one of those in my first three chapters, and it's a strand that goes throughout the book). I ended up being really disappointed in how it wound up though - all these great mysteries and set-ups and it just didn't pay off for me in the end.

I'll read anything. ANYTHING!

When I need cheering up, I read Janet Evanovitch's Stephanie Plum books - they're laugh-out-loud funny. Other mysteries: I love PD James, Elizabeth George, Tony Hillerman, Thomas Perry (Metzger's Dog - one of my most favorite books ever). I loved "The No. 1 Lady's Detective Agency" by Alexander McCall Smith.

Sci Fi: I've read most of Ursula LeGuin's and Octavia Butler's books, and a good many of Isaac Asimov's.

Westerns: I like all of Elmore Leonard's, though they can be hard to find. He wrote most of them early in his career, before he went to glitz thrillers. Forty Lashes Less One, Cuba Libre, and a collection of short stories called Tonto Woman are the best.

Thrillers: I like Grisham - and Crichton was all right until he lost his mind, took a hard right turn, and started advising the so-called president to ignore climate change. His Jurassic Park was really a great read - shame to lose him to the forces of stupid.

Odds and ends: Ann Rice's Vampire and Witches series were both good. Loved all of the Harry Potter books, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the Wirrun trilogy by Patricia Wrightson (I read those aloud to my daughter, who loved the ending of the third book so much she made me read it three times in rapid succession!)

Literary fiction: I used to think I didn't like this, but then my oldest daughter made me join a book club. Now I've got some serious favorites. In general, it's hard to go wrong with books which have won major awards - the National Book Award, the Booker Prize, the Pulitzer Prize. Some I've liked in recent years: Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan; Snow Falling on Cedars by David Guterson; Plainsong by Kent Haruf; The Shipping News by Annie Proulx; Girl With a Pearl Earring by Tracy Chevalier; Memoirs of a Geisha by Arthur Golden; Snow Flower and the Secret Fan by Lisa See; Water for Elephants by Sara Gruen. All of these, I'd say, are don't-misses; I couldn't pick a favorite out of that list.

Right now I'm reading Three Junes by Julia Glass - it's wonderful.

Okay, that's about enough for now.

Cathy

Oh, wait, I forgot one of my most favorite favorites. Life of Pi, by Yann Martel.

Now I'm really done.

Cathy

I just love different reasons for different authors.

I'm like a lot of you -- I find a book that jolts me and then I have to go read what else the author has written! I'm still in the midst of my Margaret Atwood exploration -- it's been going on for years, actually. I don't want to read too fast because then I'll not have another one to look forward to! I'd read "A Handmaid's Tale" years ago -- it's what stirred me to write fiction -- but for some reason, I never explored her other books. Then my book club read her "Alias Grace" and that was it! I was off on the search for all her novels. LOL!

The only other author that affects me like Atwood does in terms of both enjoying their work and then wanting to go back and study their style is James Ellroy. If you've read any of his fiction but have not read his autobiography ("All My Dark Places"), I can really recommend it because it gives you a whole new perspective on his fiction.

I went through most of Anne Rice's novels -- and her "alias" pieces -- but finally got bored with her 100-page ramblings and haven't read anything after the witches series. Patricia Cornwell remains someone I really enjoy reading. Others: Elmore Leonard, Carl Hiaasen, Tami Hoag, Julie Smith.

I'm also in a book club so I get exposed to books I'd never pick up otherwise. Some of the ones I liked best over the last few years: "Time Traveler's Wife", "This Much I Know Is True", "The Kite Runner," "Shadows Of The Wind."

Oh, Ann, I read all of those with my book club, too, and loved them. In fact, they're all particular favorites of mine...

Have you read The Red Tent by Anita Diamond? So good...

And how about Prodigal Summer by Barbara Kingsolver? And The Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd?

Golden oldie, and not exactly fiction: Blue Highways by William Least Heat Moon - the only book my mother-in-law and I ever agreed on.

Cathy

My taste is so different. In two words I read: Chuck Palahniuk.
Take the intro to Chapter 28 of his novel Choke.
Example:
In the summer of 1642 in Plymouth, Massachusetts, a teenage boy was accused of buggering a mare, a cow, two goats, five sheep, two calves, and a turkey. This is real history on the books. In accordance with the Biblical laws of Leviticus, after the boy confessed he was forced to watch each animal being slaughtered. Then he was killed and his body heaped with the dead animals and buried in an unmarked pit.

This was before there were sexaholic talk therapy meetings.

This teenager, writing his fourth step must've been a whole barnyard tell-all.

Another gem from that chapter:

Their teacher's outside, waiting. How it worked was, a couple hours ago, while her class was carding wool, this teacher and me wasted some sperm in the smokehouse, and for sure she thought it would turn into something romantic, but hey. Me being face deep in her wonderful rubbery butt, it's amazing what a woman will read into it if you by accident say, I love you.

Ten times out of ten, a guy means I love this.

I also read Bret Easton Ellis. His novels Less than Zero and American Psycho and The Rules Of Attraction are all my style of writting.

I read one of his books once - Chuck Palahniuk, I mean. It was called Diary. I seem to remember thinking it was a pretty good book, but it didn't impress me enough to make look him to see if he'd written anything else.

I've never read Bret Easton Ellis. Not to say I never will - I just haven't, yet.

Cathy

Thanks to all. I see that I'll have lots to read if I try everything listed here.

I might have to start with "Choke." That looks interesting. "Time Traveler's Wife" I've heard of. What's it about and who's the author? (Yeah, I could look up the info, but then I wouldn't get to ask you guys.)

Started "The Secret Life of Bees" but couldn't get into it. Does the pace pick up? And Cathy, you have quite a list. Many of those I've heard of, but they never appealed. And I don't think that I really know much about them! So I've not given them a chance. (Bad me.) At your recommendation, I'll try a couple.

I tend to read more action/adventure, suspense, mystery and romance. I need to cultivate an appreciation for the more literary titles. (Am I a Philistine?) :-) But I do so enjoy when a book starts out with a bang. (Tom Hunter's terrible trouble right at the top!) Reading a description of a sunset or a lake or details of a long road trip stretches my tedium muscles. But I've only recently learned to appreciate country music, so I guess I can learn to enjoy anything.

And I do like well-crafted phrases and paragraphs. So I will get myself to the library.

Nice to see you, Donny. Hadn't seen your name anywhere recently.

The Time Traveler's Wife is about...a time-traveler's wife. It's set in current time, and it's about a guy who jumps around in time. He can't help it - he has no control over it and it can be quite dangerous. He meets his wife when she's a child and he jumps into her reality as an adult; in real time, though, they're about the same age and they meet for real in college? I think? It's a wonderful story.

The Kite Runner is about a boy growing up in Afghanistan before the Russian invasion. His best friend is the son of the family servant; the protagonist is both dependent on him and resentful of him. The servant boy is the victim of a vicious attack which the protoganist witnesses, and which dramatically changes their relationship. After the war, the protagonist comes to America; but he gets called back to Afghanistan during the heyday (the first heyday...) of the Taliban, on behalf of his childhood friend. This book is good on so many levels - you get a wonderful picture of historic Afghanistan, which helps you to understand what they've lost; at the same time, you have a story about love and friendship and courage.

The Secret Life of Bees got better and better. But if you've tried it and haven't like it, you might want to move on to Water for Elephants. It's two stories in one: an old man in his 90's, living out his last days in a nursing home. He's a retired veterinarian. In the present, he's waiting for a visit from a family member who has promised to take him to the circus; while he waits, he's remembering his own experience with running away and joining the circus when he was a young man. It has one of those perfectly satisfying endings - just so good.

Plainsong is the story of two elderly brothers who've never done anything but farm their spread in eastern Colorado. Then a teenager in their town gets pregnant and is thrown out of her house; so a teacher who's also a friend of the brothers' persuades them to take her in. (She does this by telling them they haven't had enough different experiences in their lives, and they're running out of time.) This is one of those books with a whole bunch of story lines, all of them eventually connecting. There's a great scene where the pregnant girl confides to the teacher that the old men are nice to her, but they don't talk. The teacher marches out to the brothers' farm and tells them that they have to talk to the girl, it's what girls need; so that evening, after dinner, they explain cattle futures to her...

Snow Flower and the Secret Fan is set in historic Japan and presents the most graphic description of foot-binding you'll ever read. It's the story of women in old Japan, their limitations and their powers. Once a young woman was married, she went to live in her husband's household where she was completely controlled by her mother-in-law. Occasionally she might be allowed to visit her family, or a special friend, but not often. So women developed a secret writing which they used to decorate fans. By passing the fans back and forth, they were able to communicate. It's a fascinating story; I got so involved in it that I ended up looking up foot-binding online so I could understand what she meant when she talked about the lotus-shape.

Okay. There you go. All of those were met with universal satisfaction by my book club, which is a pretty heterogenous group of women.

Cathy

Great stuff, Cathy. Plainsong, with its connecting storylines sounds good. Will definitely try Time Traveler's Wife. History with the Taliban? That also sounds like a winner.

So maybe I'll visit the library instead of the bookstore...$$$

The Kite Runner!!! I have four more chapters to read in that book. The only non-Palahniuk book I've read this year and it is sooo good.

Cathy - Diary is aiight but not as good as Choke or his non-fiction book Stranger Than Fiction which reads just like fiction and many claim is fiction. The stories in that book are... well... I have no words. Great I guess.

Funny thing is I told my wife to have her book club read Choke because I figure if they like Palahniuk they would like my book. They were disturbed. Now, my wife won't let them read Tar and Feather. It's not for everyone.

Choke - not for everyone? Sounds like something I might like. (Heh.) I think I'll look it up.

About The Kite Runner - Khalid Husseini is a doctor. He used to be part of the practice that includes my doctor, and my doctor loves to read. We spend a good part of each appointment discussing books. Last time I saw him, he had just finished reading The Kite Runner, which he loved. He said he hadn't expected to like it - he was just reading it to be polite. :^}

Cathy

Ty, I bet you and your wife have some fun discussions. Do you ever go to her book club meetings?

Tastes vary so widely. My mother tried to get me to read Angela's Ashes--but I like stories that have at least something upbeat about them. I'm all for happily ever afters, at least for a character or two. Don't really mind if some get killed off.

Yet, I stopped reading James Patterson after he killed off one of the 4 major characters in the Lindsey Boxer series! I was seriously ticked off. A major character in a book dying? Cool. But a major one from a series? Nah. How could I trust Patterson again?

Key to my enjoyment is the growth/change of the protagonist. If he's in the same mess at the end of the story, I wonder why I've wasted my time with him. I need to see something different in his situation or outlook or emotions or even locale.

This is one of the reasons I hated "The English Patient." Put me through all that and then someone helps him kill himself? Why didn't you just kill him earlier and save me the hour and a half?

Rambling here. Guess I'll get back to work.

Ha. I didn't like The English Patient either. (I presume you're talking about the movie, since you mentioned an hour-and-a-half.) I never warmed up to the characters; in fact, I disliked them and couldn't work up any angst at all over what might happen to them.

I didn't read the book. Was it better than the movie?

Cathy

Don't know about the book--the movie was so bad, I would never pick up the book.

I disliked them, too. Here we are, having an affair. We don't care about anyone else. (We do get to stand around in arresting locales, though.) And we both die. Didn't we make a good story? NO, you didn't. And this won the Academy Award?

Only one of two movies I ever was tempted to walk out of. But I must have been with others, cause I watched the whole thing.

I kinda liked the secondary story with the nurse and the Muslim (Sikh?) guy. But that's probably because he was cute--the liking had little to do with the movie. Even they didn't get together at the end and were unchanged by their encounter.

So if this was a slice of life yet nothing changed, why show us?

Hah! I hated The English Patient too! The movie, I mean. GOD that was boring! And I like long movies!

Huh, perhaps a concept for a new group...wehateEnglishPatient.gather.com ;)

There are lots of Academy Award nominees and winners I didn't like. Castaway, for example. They had two, count them, TWO good ideas for a movie, got greedy, and tried to cram them both into the same film! Result? One unsatisfying mess.

Geez, they should have stayed with him on the island and ended the movie with him being picked up by that ship. The dramatic potential in his failed suicide attempt, and his choice to keep living, is just tremendous. So what do they do? They show you a dummy dangling from a noose and make you figure it out for yourself.

And what a movie THIS would be: guy's been shipwrecked for x years, is rescued, and tries to pick up his life where it left off.

Doesn't it just make you want to scream? What a waste!

Cathy

I like long movies, too, Lisa. Not only do I want my money's worth, but I want my escapes to last more than just 90 minutes. (But King Kong, that was an hour too long, and just bad.)

I also like long books. I mean, if you can finish in an hour, the book could be good. But it's not enough. I like those I'm still reading at 3 AM. The kind you just can't put down--just a few more pages, just one more chapter. And if I've paid $20 for an hour's read? That just doesn't seem smart.

I like Robert B. Parker, especially the Spenser books. But I don't buy them anymore. Those are the kind you get from the library. He's such a fast read that I don't feel he's earned my money. (Terrible thing for a writer to say!)

And he's the only big-name author that I can say for sure overused the simple "he said" "she said" dialogue tags. One chapter was 2 pages long. The second page had lots of white space. And Spenser and Susan he saided and she saided about a dozen times. Proofreader, anyone? Are you showing contempt for your readers, assuming they'll read anything?

Cathy, maybe you nailed what I didn't like about Castaway. Everyone loved it so much, I felt funny about saying I never did. It was a waste--Tom Hanks is an excellent actor.

Hey, about Robert Crais? He's really fun to read.

Don't know where that came from...I was just sitting here, minding my own business, and I remembered that I like his books...

Cathy

That last post should read, "Hey, how about Robert Crais?..." I wish they had a preview/edit function for comments.

I just saw that Oprah's newest pick is Middlesex by Jeffery Eugenides.

Very good book. It's about hermaphrodites. Really.

Cathy

Okay, I've never heard of Robert Crais. Maybe Eugenides. Where do these authors hang out and how come I don't know about them?!

Was there another book called Middlesex? Just sounds familiar.

No preview/edit, but you can copy and paste and then delete the old comment! I've done that a few times when I've caught my error right away.

I usually choose books by recommendations. I also read by author. I love (almost) everything by Jodi Picoult. I am reading Water For Elephants now and am really enjoying it. I have also read many of the books that Cathy M. mentioned and agree with her recommendations. I read pretty much everything: literary, genre, non-fiction. Oh, and someone mentioned I Know This Much is True by Wally Lamb. That is one of my all-time favorite books, so I definitely recommend it.

Maryea, thanks for the recommendations. What's "I Know This Much is True" about? An all-time favorite of another reader/writer has got to be wonderful.

I Know This Much is True is about identical twin brothers, one of whom is schizophrenic. It's long and complicated, but well worth the read. I liked it a lot. Wally Lamb also wrote She's Come Undone, which I loved. He's writing from the point of view of a woman, and he's so accurate that you keep checking the name and bio to be sure he's a man.

Cathy

She's Come Undone was the first Oprah book I ever read. At the time, because that book was so good, I trusted Oprah to find all the good books. Now her club is hit or miss.

I read short stories in literary journals more than novels. I prefer dark literary fiction that tells a compelling story. I think Dennis Lehane and Cormac McCarthy are the two best living American novelists. I know Dennis personally, and he is a kind and generous teacher as well as a brilliant writer.

Linda, two more authors I don't know and haven't read. Thanks for the tip.

Ty, I'm afraid that I haven't read anything that Oprah's bookclub promoted. I mean, I didn't read one just because she recommended it. (Course, not sure that I've read anything on her list.)

Oprah's book club promoted some good books in the beginning, but the problem was that her taste is so dark! After awhile she was pushing books I just couldn't bear to read - the worst was House of Sand and Fog, a book so depressing it makes you want to slit your wrists - so I stopped taking her suggestions. The best one she ever promoted, in my opinion, was She's Come Undone.

She does recognize good writing, by the way. All the books I saw were written exceptionally well. The plots and themes, though, got progressively more hopeless, until I just couldn't read them anymore. I need at least a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

Cathy

The Oprah books I've read (not on purpose, just sort of randomly) all had to do with family trauma, incest, stuff like that. One I didn't like at all was White Oleander. It was just too much! Like, okay, what happens to this girl next? Attacked by feral dogs? M'kay. It got so gothic that I didn't believe it any more.

Okay, the good writing part I'd like, but I have little interest in family trauma stories. Remember those "movies of the week" from the seventies? And now the Lifetime television channel shows that kind of stuff.

I know there's a market for both books and movies with this tone and these topics, but I'm not into watching or reading them. So, if my books have happy endings, does this mean Oprah will never feature me? Does she only promote literary books rather than the more commercial titles?

Well, she's just picked Middlesex, which was wonderful. And doesn't make you try to strangle yourself with your own panty hose after you read it.

When I checked her list, I found that she had selected both of the Wally Lamb books that I like - She's Come Undone, and I Know This Much Is True. She selected The Color Purple, which I liked a lot. So, there's hope, Beth. ;^}

Cathy

I read an interesting article in conjunction with her pick of Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" - the article's author posited that she didn't necessarily pick books with "happy" endings but that she picked moral books - books with some kind of moral lesson attached.

I meant to read "Middlesex" - I've heard great things about it.

Yeah, I'd say that's true. She's a big one for life lessons. It's kind of surprising in a way - her life has been pretty difficult at times. It doesn't seem like she'd need to get lessons out of books, if that makes sense. I don't read depressing books because I figure there are disappointments and difficulties enough in any given life - I want books to lift me up, entertain me, make me smile. I'm looking for RESPITE from the many lessons I'm forced to learn each day...

Like this one: if you don't walk the dog in the morning - even if you have a really, really good reason not to - you're going to lose a shoe later in the day. ;-(

Cathy

And yes, you read that correctly. My dog is a vindictive bitch.

Cathy

Do I have to defend Hemingway yet again? Read the opening from A Farewell To Arms.

"Water for Elephants by Sara Gruen"

I knew Sara before she sold he first book at an auction to HarperTorch. She's as nice and skilled an author as there is. I recall the message when she said, "I just sold my Circus book."

I later replied, "That's some circus book." It's done very well, been nominated for awards and all from a small press. I haven't read it.

Let's see, right now I have Nicholas Evans, Kim Stanley Robinson, Thomas Pynchon, Tony Hillerman, Michael Connelly and a nonfiction by Jon Krakhauer and one by James L. Nelson Benedict Arnold's Navy where I am a souce and in the acknowledgements at long last.

No women. I don't know what that means.

I wouldn't be surprised if Oprah's folks encourage her to pick "moral" books. She is, after all, in a position to influence others. But just once I wish someone noteworthy would praise a beach read or some other fluffy book. "Hey! It may not be great literature, but you'll love spending time with this book!"

Mark, I've tried Michael Connelly a couple of times since he fits in with other fiction that I enjoy, but for some reason I'm just not thrilled. It's almost as if he's in the ballpark but never quite close enough. Got one of his either in my car or in a stack of to-be-reads, so maybe I'll give him another try.

Like Cathy, I read fiction for entertainment and for an emotional workout. I read plenty of non-fiction for the real stuff.

Okay, now I'm caught up. Ditto on The English Patient, a romance where the guy gets fried in the end. Literally. Truely inspirational. While one of my favorite movies, all of which happen to be Robert Redford films, is The Horse Whisperer, the romantic lead takes it in the chin once again. Left alone on the hill and she rides off. Of course in the novel, apparently sensing the impending loss, he allows the horse to stomp him to death. Annie goes back to her mundane husband and has Tom Booker's baby. Naturally, the guy remains clueless.

Now I feel better.

Ivy, thanks for the tips. "Playful word loving romps" sounds just like my kind of read so I'll have to check out Tom Robbins. Non-fiction is great, too. But when I want to escape, I need a great novel.

Someone's already mentioned Jasper Fforde's THURSDAY NEXT series, right? Well, just in case, I'm mentioning it. A must for readers and writers! Made me laugh outloud in places, and that's rare.

My favorite is the third, "The Well of Lost Plots," but starting in order is probably wise.

Lisa, that's a new one, I think. "Well of Lost Plots" sounds intriguing.

I've never heard of this author or this series. You all have pointed out so many writers that I'm unfamiliar with that I think I must be shopping in the wrong bookstores.

Oh, as a writer (and an engaged reader), you absolutely must read them. Very funny and smart.

I am a first class Philistine. I rarely ever read best sellers. I want 'beach reads' year round. Nothing too heavy, nothing dpressing, nothing moral, nothing uplifting. Mystery/thriller/romance. The occassional adventure. Just finished the 13th Tale by Diane Satterfield and loved it. ELizabeth Lowell. Steve Berry. Greg Ilse (howver you spell it). Marjorie Liu and Susan Grant for my sci-fi fix.

Actually, at the moment, I'm reading a manuscript from a First Chapters entrant. He posted the entire thing on the internet. It was in my top three non-winning entries. I bugged him after the contest was over, so he told me where to find it. It's called The Fifth Convenant, by Drew Jensen, about a dying Nazi hunter, Hitler's Occult Bureau, includes the Vatican, Armegeddon, a crucifiction site in the Andes that predates Jeruselum, and more cool stuff. At around 600 pages, he's given up trying to get it commercially published. It's one of the cleanest MSs I've seen. It's kind of Dan Brown meets James Rollins, and it's a page turner.

So there. I'd rather read something unpublished than the 15 books sitting unread on my to-be-read shelf!

Geg Iles, yes. Complex but fast reads.

Authors I always read--
JD Robb--but not Nora Roberts
Clancy (yes!)
Karen Marie Moning--but her last book bored me
Elizabeth Peters--esp. Amelia Peabody. A couple of these should be movies.
Ludlum's Bourne series--the movies were great, but they weren't the same stories as the books, so they could make the movies again but this time, follow the books' plots.
JR Ward
Dick Francis--love how he mixes the horseracing world with other careers and glad he came out of retirement

Loved Crichton's Timeline

Wanted to like Grisham but found myself editing instead of reading in a couple of early books so never went back--great ideas, but he needed an editor.

Like Evanovich's Stephanie Plum but not her other stuff.

Married writing team Nicci French--psychological thrillers. Can be disturbing but great reads.

So many, many more but I'm at my office and can't think of the zillions of others.

Among books in my to-be-read stacks-- (I finally had to hide some under the bed!)
Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series
The Harry Potter series--borrowed them from a nephew, just haven't jumped in
The Rule of Four
The Historian
The Lovely Bones

With the help of everyone here, I'm going to have lots to read the next couple of weeks. If you've got more praises for books--or books to steer clear of--keep them coming.

I hope Drew edits enough that publishers are willing to give him a read. 600 pages IS a lot, even for book lovers.

Beth, you and I clearly have the same taste in books.

The Rule of Four
The Historian
The Lovely Bones

Loved every one of them. I love the early ELiazabeth Peters (pre Amelia), and one of two of the Amelia's, but then they got a bit much for me after the 'real' Elizabeth Peters died, and they started being ghostwritten. I like the stuff written other her other names as well.

I'm up to page 358 in Drew's manuscript, and it's so good it's terrifying. I mean, he could make Dan Brown cry like a little girl. He'd bring Preston/Child to their knees. James Rollins, make way. With it's Armageddon/end times thread, he could give Tim Lehaye a run for the money. If ever I had a clue how to start a publishing company, I'd anchor it with this one.

Just finished another manuscript by a first chapter writer as well. I won't say who, for privacy's sake. It's also around 173,000 words, and worth every one of them. It's a fantasy along the lines of JRR Tolkien, and would probably be a highly satisfying read for that crowd. It's also only the first in a trilogy. I'm probably going to have to grovel and humiliate myself to get the rest.

Six hundred page novels don't scare me. I look for them. And with as fast as the Fifth Covenant reads, I'll be through it probably by Tuesday. I'm finding it impossible to lay aside. In fact, the only reason I stopped for a few minutes now was to send an email to Drew to tell him about the tingles running up and down my spine. This one really is the real deal.

Then again, I do love Dan Brown. Angels and Demons was better than DaVinici, and Digital Fortress was better than either. See. A Philistine.

Several people told me Angels and Demons was better than DaVinci--and one of them just this morning!!!

I had never heard of Dan Brown before DaVinci and with all the hoopla--him saying that this was true and that such and such was based on fact (things I knew to be untrue)--I just couldn't bring myself to read his stuff. I saw the movie last week--boring. For all the buzz, they should've made a better film.

600 pages is not too long for readers--it's the publishers I worry about. My first manuscript is 240,000 words, so I understand the task before someone who has to cut for the market.

Not all novels have to be short. Epics and adventure tales deserve longer formats. But selling to a publisher becomes immeasurably more difficult. (Since I was able to cut 5,000 words in the 72 hours before I submitted to First Chapters, I know that with time I can get mine down to a manageable word count.) Until we're established authors, adherence to standard word counts is often one of the unbreakable rules.

When did Elizabeth Peters die? I thought I saw current stuff on her as recently as last year? I know someone in the family--daughter? niece?--helps with research, but I thought she still wrote. I bet you loved the Vicky Bliss stories.

Tell Drew that we all wish him success.

ADORED Vicki Bliss! I may be wrong, but I thought Elizbeth Peters was Barbara Michaels. Have to go look it up.

Elizabeth Peters isn't dead - is she???? She's actually a famous Egyptologist, one of the reasons her Amelia books had a certain amount of credibility. I think her real name is Barbara Mertz.

Boy, I think we may have hit upon the common touchstone here - I like Elizabeth Peters too!

You guys might like the weird book(s) I wrote before my latest - I was just writing for fun and didn't want to do any research, so I set it in an alternate world that has no magic or science fiction elements - it's sort of vaguely Edwardian and has airships, because I like them.

Anyway I've gotten a couple of comments that the main character reminded them of Elizabeth Peters.

I've never quite gotten the first chapter to work right but I think it's a pretty good (if idiosyncratic and probably not sellable) book.

And I like long books!

According to Wiki, she's is Barbara Micheals (Barbara Mertz), and she's still alive. My bad. And I loved her Jacqueline Kirby novels madly!

Idiosyncratic works for me!

So, Lisa. Do we get to read your book? I think I already love it. Post, post, post. (Non-subliminal message. Did it work?)

Pat, I can see you as Jacqueline Kirby. You have the same sensibilities. I wasn't going to say idiosyncratic, but okay.

Ah, but you meant Lisa's book. Got it.

No, that's ok. I'm idiosyncratic too! LOL!

I will think about that. Like I said, the first chapter is still kind of problematic. But one thing I like about it is that it proves I can write in a different voice that doesn't involve obscenities every other line.

Lisa, that leads to a question. In real life, do you curse the way your characters do in your stories?

I don't curse at all, but some of my characters do. They have to, to be real. Even in our threads here I've put words in the characters' mouths that I don't say. Just wondered if other writers have found they do the same thing.

Depends on the context! When I was playing rock I cursed up a storm. But it really is about channeling your characters' voices. I try not to get in the way.

Hm. I didn't care for the Dan Brown books - though I read them both. I read DaVinci, didn't like it, and then got stuck because my book club wanted to read something unserious for a change and selected Angels and Demons. The only thing I liked about it was that when I went to Rome the following summer, my hotel was just off a piazza with one of the featured fountains in it! When I asked if the fountain was a Bernini, the cab driver said, "Angels and Demons." Cracked me up.

As for Nicholas Evans - he just pisses me off. I mean, come on, he sold Horse Whisperer without having finished it, got paid $X millions - yes, that's correct, MILLIONS - for it, and then wrote the lamest ending ever. He uses the whole book to set up this decision for his female protagonist, and then when it's time for her to decide, he kills off one of her choices. Dumb. Really dumb. I've never read another one of his books and never will. I'm bitter.

Off to a meeting. Crazy day.

Cathy

I think we all have writers we love to hate.

A friend recommended Nicholas Sparks as her favorite author, praising him highly. The first book that I read was good, good enough to have me start a second. At the end of it (can't remember which) I thought, "Okay, not a very happy ending. But that's just one book." So then I read The Notebook. And saw two movies based on his books. All depressing endings. Won't read any more of his books after that.

Never read Horse Whisperer only because the topic didn't appeal. But I've heard about it and also about the end of Bridges of Madison County. Apparently neither end satisfied readers.

I guess there's a great lesson for us in this--Write an ending that satisfies and makes sense given the first part of the book.

Beth, must a novel have a "happy ending" to satisfy readers? What about one that's sad, but it provides insight, growth, and closure? Can you think of any book you loved that didn't have a happy ending? Catherine, Lisa, Pat, and others: what do you think?

Call me shallow. I don't care about insight, growth, or closure. I'm not a deep reader. I don't want any more tears in my life than are necessary. I never watch movies with sad endings. I want the bad guy to either get it, or there had better be a sequel in the works. Good has to win. The hero/heroine have to figure out how to make it work. If you kill off a sympathetic character, you better have a reason for it.

I read a manuscript from another first chapter's entrant, and was thrilled with everything but the end. We talked, and I understood why she wrote it as she did, but it left me unhappy. I'm still hoping she fixes it.

That's why I'm approaching the final Harry Potter with trepidation. If Harry dies, there had better be a darn good reason.

Ah, Linda, you're gonna make me think.

I'm sure some of the not happily-ever-afters have left me satisfied. There must be some like that, cause I love lots and lots of books. But if there has been insight and growth and maturity, then the characters are usually not in the same sad situation they were in at the beginning. Thus, they're better off. Thus happier.

Might not be true across the board, but if there's been advancement, I feel I've gotten my happy ending.

If everyone is in the same sad state, even if they have closure over an issue, I am definitely not satisfied. I want change!

I think this is one of the reasons I didn't like Tess of the D'urbervilles. I can't remember all the details, but if she or someone had once said something to get her out of her predicament, the story and her life would have been far different. I know, I know! Not the story he wrote. But I don't like stupidity, for lack of a better word, in a character. Just tell someone, I remember thinking to Tess over and over.

When there is no character growth and no changes in the characters' lives, I get incensed. I guess I want to see people overcoming adversity, not surrendering to it.

Scarlett didn't change in some ways for a long time in GTTW, but she certainly matured at the end. And you knew her life would be different. Just the final paragraphs let the reader know Scarlett will be making changes.

Forever Amber, one of the few books I started but didn't finish, didn't give the reader a sense of character growth. That woman got into the same predicaments over and over again. Aargh! That's why I never finished.

Other books that might have "sad" endings but that satisfy? I'm not sure. Have any suggestions?

I'm with Beth. There has to be growth and advancement. Sad things can happen - even at the end of the book - but there has to be at least a flicker of hope. The reason I hated The Horse Whisperer so much (and Cold Mountain, another wonderful book ruined by its ending) is because the death of the male protagonist seemed gratuitous, as if the authors thought they had to kill off somebody important or they wouldn't be taken seriously. The deaths didn't rise naturally out of the stories' events. They were tacked on for maximum wah-effect.

Sad books (and stuff) I like:

Classics -
The Yearling. Old Yeller. The Red Pony. Of Mice and Men. Romeo and Juliet. Flowers for Algernon. Catcher in the Rye. A Separate Peace.

Modern -
Snow Flower and the Secret Fan. Snow Falling on Cedars. The Kite Runner. The Time Traveler's Wife. The Children of Men.

A lot of these are sad most of the way through. What makes them so good is the positive note (okay, sometimes it's a half-note) at the end.

Cathy

A half-note is truly better than no note.

And I certainly don't mind sad endings. Not so much as I mind unsatisfying ones.

But, to be honest, I do like happily-ever-afters!

Cathy, you've given me many more to read!

Classics - Lord of the Flies my ATF

I knew you'd have something different for us, Ty.

I thought of that one, too, Ty. But, to be honest, I couldn't remember how it ended...
It's been shmrfy years since I read it.

Fill in shmrfy for yourself. Try not to make me so old as to scare me.

Cathy

Cathy, if you don't admit to having read it in such-and-such grade, I think you're okay with the age thing.

I'll never admit to having read it at such and such a time. That's because it's been so long, I can't remember what grade I was in when I read it.

My daughter read it this year in English. She really liked it, as I knew she would.

Cathy

Sidney Sheldon, Anne Rice, and Stephen King are my all time favorites. I ahve read Master of the Game about 3 times and I'll read it another 3 time before I am done with this lifetime, I'm sure. Right now I am reading an old favorite "Insomnia" by Stephen King. This is my second time around for this one. I have a bookshelf full of Sidney.

Have you ever tried any scifi? I finally read "spook country" by William Gibson. Great, couldn't put it down -- topical too. I enjoy finding references to current events in fiction - John LeCarre is another who does this.

I had to stop and think about this. I've read a lot of books in my lifetime, but there are few books I've liked so much that I've actually kept (rather than donating to the library or selling at the resale book store). Perhaps my all-time favorites are "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "Gone With the Wind".

I read books to entertain myself, and i find romantic novels very interesting.