Christology for the New Millennium
Curtis J. Scott
For decades serious scholarship and the pick and hammer of biblical archaeology have chipped away at many core Christian beliefs - from virgin birth to the nature of Jesus - and soon may induce profound changes to Christianity. Sooner, if those holding on tight to traditional beliefs were either aware of such findings, or receptive to the light good, and often devout scholarship has shed on events of the first-century. Sometimes revelations come from getting a hold of earlier version of sacred texts and simply having a better grasp of Greek and Aramaic than our Medieval and Renaissance predecessors. Sometimes new texts are found, analyzed by scholars then unveiled to the world, as was the case recently for the Gnostic Gospel of Judas. Such texts can be quite thought provoking. The Gnostic Gospel of Philip, for instance describes the frustration of the male disciples of Jesus with their master's public displays of affection toward Mary Magdalene. Christians have long assumed that Jesus had no such relationship, but that assumption was based on traditional belief, apocryphal stories made up centuries after Jesus' death, not anything in the Bible; and perhaps solidified by Pope Gregory VII when, in the eighth century he, through some misogynistic bent, turned Jesus' beloved disciple into the whore upon whom a village of hypocrites wished to cast stones. So it can't have been his girlfriend, right? There are other revelations that cause consternation. For example, from a strictly historical perspective, it appears Jesus was not from Nazareth, but a Nazaraean - a member of an ultra-orthodox sect of Judaism that emphasized the healing of the sick. As a student of ancient Greek myself, I assume this was a mild error in syntax. Still, once a thing is repeated for, say, a thousand years it becomes "fact." What is coming into light in the twenty-first century is why, when, where and how we came to believe what we believed. Through scholarship we now have available a view of Jesus in his element and the first centuries of context within which the Bible, the Church and ultimately Christian beliefs formed. A pertinent question would be one like this. If we were to figure out, for instance, that the churches founded by St. Paul had little in common with the teachings of Jesus, and actually censored teachings they disagreed with, whose side should we take as authoritative, Jesus, or Paul? For two thousand years the answer has been "The Church's."
Faithful though I am, the more I come to understand the middle of the first-century through the fourth, the more I have to ask myself, "Faithful to what?" I've come to believe that so many discoveries of in some cases blatant misunderstandings should call into question how it is we've come to believe what we believe. Though the song says, "Because the Bible told me so," it is far more likely that one's Christian beliefs stem from what one's mothers taught, or some other member of our family, priest, or pastor. No matter what religion one is, in practice, it is a religion of tradition. Meaning one does what one does and believes what one believes because that's the way they've always done it - even when "always" points directly to a moment of revelation or change in personal philosophy that occurred in the last 150 years. As the recent rise of evangelical churches shows, it really only takes a generation for people to declare themselves the self-anointed keepers of Truth. Until 1963 the Catholic Church, of which I am a member, used only 7% of the Old Testament and 17% of the New Testament in the transmission of its Christology. The rest came from nearly two thousand years of tradition. After roughly one thousand five hundred years of that tradition Martin Luther, a priest of the tradition, began his own tradition, as did John Calvin and so on. Both men based their Christology on the old tradition while rightly rejecting many Catholic methods of implementation, some of them downright vulgar, many of them outright cruel. Few assumptions about the first centuries were changed though. The distillation of Jesus as both God and a conduit to God by way of salvation remained. Extra biblical traditions also remained. For example, John Calvin was a great believer in the interceding characteristics of saints - a tradition already more than fifteen hundred years old, but by no means Biblical - though the Protestant religions that descended from Calvin quickly adopted a tradition of rejecting that tradition - the decision of men. The point is, for all we say about what we believe the Bible to be and to say about Jesus, as humans we lean toward putting it into our own words, which stem from our personalities, which are formed by those who love us effectively or poorly. The versions of Christianity we've inherited, at their root, show our propensity to make up stories and traditions, and pick and choose those sacred texts that agree with us, rather than the other way around, then call it all "Truth." What we disagree with we have a range of names for. I have met precious few people who take an objective look at the text itself.
The New Testament itself is a perfect example of this. In my conversations over the years with members of the Christian flock of many stripes, I have found that few have an understanding of its origin beyond, "It's the stuff God wanted in there." A more accurate answer is that it's the stuff Athenasius, Bishop of Alexandria wanted in there. It's when one gets to the question, "Who was Athenasius?" that doubt begins to plague the mind; as he is also prominent in pushing, to the point of murderous riots, the idea of Jesus being God as most of Christianity understands it, in the middle of the fourth-century. In other words, Jesus didn't become God in the way a contemporary Christian would perceive it until three hundred years after his death. At that point in Christian history also came the picking and choosing among sacred texts those that agreed with the beliefs of men with political power, including the Emperor of Rome. That's why the Gospels of Judas, and Mary Magdalene and Philip and Thomas aren't in it. Not until this very moment has a Christian had access to the cornucopia of sacred materials and ideas of two thousand years of faith. Also, only now can one get an honest view of life in the Roman Empire, a view that looks upon them as ruthless, murderous occupiers sucking the life and wealth out of the ancient Third World, and not as the heroes of later empires doing much the same ugliness, including our own. Not since Origen of Alexandria in the 200s have we even sought a picture of the real and historical Jesus, his time, or the world that must have influenced Paul's decisions and actions. Only in the last hundred years have scholars obsessed over context; but most importantly, only recently has the grip of politically powerful churches lessened such that a picture of the first centuries of Christianity can come to light.
So what does all this mean? For one thing we are starting to get an image how Jesus spent his days. One would be forgiven for assuming we already had that, but the simple truth is we didn't, for several reasons. So, who was he? Jesus and his ilk were among several sects of Pharisees, meaning they were educated men, the intelligentsia of their day who, by job description, taught the tenants of their faith and settled disputes - legal and religious - similar to the Irish Brehan. To be a Nazaraean was to be among an ultra-orthodox, ascetic, pharisaic Jewish group specializing in what amounted to a combination of faith healing and medicine man. He lived his daily life under Roman occupation that, though the technology was different, the factors on the ground were much the same as American occupation of Iraq.
These are things we Christians could have known five hundred years before the first wave of murderous Crusades, but weren't interested, precisely because it brought into focus how devoutly Jewish our Savior was. Some two billion people, I would bet, are still uncomfortable with Yeshua the Orthodox Jewish Pharisee, and would rather stick with the Jesus of Nazareth of the Christmas pageant. In other words, they have a vested interested in traditional "Truth" over historical fact. Until the Holocaust, for perhaps 800 years, Catholics of greater Germanium and Poland had an Easter tradition of leaving church after the Stations of the Cross Passion, picking up torches then marching to the shtetl or ghetto to kill Jews. While burning their houses and farms they'd scream, "Christ-killers" with a thirst for blood. Krystalnacht wasn't a Nazi invention. It was part of a Christian tradition of anti-Semitism that started early in the Church, despite everything Jesus actually said about the acceptance of anyone who carried the first century label of "other." Love your enemy was the directive. Kill your enemy became the tradition.
On the surface such revelations about Jesus' life as an ascetic Pharisee seem harmless, and they should be. Still, violence is rarely far behind any challenge to one's beliefs. (Whatever we in the West call what is happening in Iraq - terrorism, insurgency, chaos, etc - it is most definitively the beginning of the Islam's Reformation.) Thanks to fiction writer Dan Brown, and movies like Stigmata, other "facts" about the historical Jesus and the early Church have come to light recently that should cause both literalist Pentecostals and traditionalist Catholics alike to squirm a little in their seats. Both ends of the Christian spectrum emphasize that Mr. Brown is a writer of fiction. Indeed, much of what he writes about the Church is the product of imagination alone. Opus Dei does not hire hit-man priests to kill those who would unleash biblical history upon the masses, for instance. I hope not anyway. On the other hand, historically speaking it is quite clear that infamous St. Athenasius, fourth-century Bishop of Alexandria - the man most responsible for the Creed that came out of the Council of Nicaea and the final verdict on what would be contained in the New Testament cannon - had no problem whatsoever hiring hit-men priests to do away with other priests, monks mostly, who disagreed with his imaginative understanding of the nature of Jesus. And while we're on the topic of the Council of Nicaea, I cannot imagine any historical truth about Jesus more shocking to the modern Christian than the idea that Jesus was not assumed to be God incarnate until that meeting in 325 A.D., presided over by none other than Emperor Constantine. Some historians, myself included, see so much irony in those meetings that we want to either laugh or cry, depending on our desire to believe despite what we know. I can and have often argued that that moment in history was the precise moment in which Jesus, and everything he believed, lived and died for was rendered unto Caesar, so that Bishop Athenasius could be called St. Athenasius. Power and politics have had more to do with what we believe than anything Jesus ever said. Nothing speaks more loudly to that than the relative absence of his words in our traditions. Take away the Lord's Prayer and what do we have?
That meeting was pivotal to say the least. To make a very long story short, Constantine, recently impressed by the God of the Christians took one look at their organizational structure - bishops in big towns, different scriptures scattered all over the place, with the North Africans believing one thing, the Syrians another, the Celts up in Gaul, literally off in left field starting their own set of traditions, already Mary-centered, Athenasius burning his rivals alive and starting riots, (remember, the Romans hate uprisings) - and said "This in no way to run an empire!" He called the wisest and most powerful bishops of the Roman Empire to the table and said, "Make it uniform!" Uniform is what we got. The real Jesus, Yeshua, is what we lost. Gnostic Gospels and letters that painted a different picture of Christ from the one Athenasius and his gang of priest thugs wanted were tossed out. Check that. They were burned if at all possible, but this was not the first time the depiction of an alternative Christ was under fire.
We now have a fairly clear picture of the Church in the first-century that shows two distinct camps alluded to in Acts. One is the Jerusalem Church left in the hands of James, the brother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene and Peter, with the rest of the disciples, like John, Thomas and Timothy going off and setting up holy lives that included preaching, teaching, healing and comforting pilgrims who sought them out as followers of Jesus. Though Athenasius would have put a hit out on me for saying so, others and I have come to believe that Hebrews in the New Testament was possibly the work of Mary Magdalene. I imagine Hebrews as the keynote speaker's message to a gathering of priests and disciples of the early Jerusalem Church; a message from one who knew Jesus personally, knew his thoughts and beliefs intimately from so many years in his company; who is reminding these Jesus-centered Jews of their awesome tasks and responsibilities. She is literally keeping them on task against the reality that they are part of a fledgling sect, a cult of neo-orthodox Jews spreading the Good News about a dead rebel who spoke for God, as if God were inside him, and could have been king were it not for the bloody Romans. To stray from the path Jesus trod, when they had heard the Wisdom of God was to imperil one's soul. Add Hebrews to James and Peter, along with the Gospel of Mark - also known as John Mark, the young man Peter sent to see what Paul was going around telling people - and you have the Jerusalem Church, the church Jesus left behind, so to speak.
In opposition to Jesus' best friend, girlfriend and brother were the Paulines, the followers of Paul. To get a sense of the depth of that opposition it has been surmised by some in the biblical archaeology field, based on documents sent to Africa for safe keeping, that the account of Stephen's martyrdom in Acts in not entirely the way it went down. What really happened is that Paul, who believed he had a more recent revelation from Jesus and therefore was the authority on all Christian matters decided to revert to his previous occupation as hit man for the Sadducees, the holy puppets of Rome in Jerusalem, and kill James, the head of the Jerusalem Church outright. Stephen was James. That hit-man theme keeps coming up, doesn't it? This makes Kazantzakas' view of Paul in The Last Temptation of Christ pretty much dead on, so to speak. It also makes sense that Peter would send Mark to look into the actions of Paul.
So where does that leave us? Peter and the Apostles wanted to carry on as Jesus, the Christ, talk about love, giving and sharing the nature of their souls and God's love. Enough of endless rules, buildings made of stone, and fancy titles for men who love power, they said. God is inside us, and all around us! They liked to gather at the water's edge and share a meal. Paul wanted to start churches and create a hierarchy of power within the Roman Empire, based on some things Jesus said. Paul was a can-do kind of guy. He left backwater Tarsus to seek fame and fortune in the big city, took a great paying job harassing and killing Christians who were embarrassing the rich guys in charge then went on to do whatever it took to create the only other authority structure within the Roman Empire. He wanted buildings and power even though Jesus was rather specific about not finding God "in buildings made of stone."
The rest of the New Testament is Pauline. The Gospel According to John is a beautiful depiction of the distilled image of Christ from the perspective of the winning side. Paul won. James was murdered, Peter crucified upside down, Mary Magdalene run out of town despite Philip, Apostle of Jesus, making it abundantly clear that Jesus loved her more than the rest. By the middle of the second-century Christianity was Pauline in all the big towns: the result of Paul's plan and his efforts. In the countryside the outcast followers of the true Apostles wrote Gospels and letters, roamed the deserts, started monasteries. The Desert Fathers, St. Anthony et al blossomed. Most preached about a transcendental Jesus within us and all things, an ascetic Jesus, a Jesus who despised Empire. Some were literally hunted down by a Church that was gradually becoming an empire within the Roman Empire. Thus the need for Nicaea by 325 A.D. to decide who and what was this man Jesus, and who would control the message once and for all.
Men in charge, that's the rub. The Greek Paulines didn't like that Yeshua sounded so Jewish so they changed his name to Jesus. The misogynist Church Fathers didn't like women in positions of authority so they threw out the priestesses, though they had no problem taking money from women; in fact wealthy women were a great source of income in the early Church. One can be forgiven for imagining what Jesus would say about such money. In the Roman Empire, if Caesar said to the Governor of Cyrenia, "For the audacity of wearing a purple scarf, you will run around naked until we cut off your genitals and nail you to a wall," it was done. In the Roman Empire, no one had authority except Caesar. Slaves were naked, period, unless their bodies were so old and wrinkled that they were no longer fun to look at. And everyone was a potential slave. Paul offered that a man who was a slave could, through his church, be part of another secret authority structure. In the church, a slave could be a ward, a deacon, a priest or even a bishop, not just fully clothed, but royally clothed. I can look around Wal-Mart and see how tempting that argument still is; but missing was Jesus' preaching that such things carry negative weight in the eyes of God. They are vanity. They are pride. They are of the earth, as dust. They are sin. What about camels and needles? Nothing matters except how we treat one another, the widows and the orphans. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Give everything away and God will take care of you like the birds in the air.
I am a Catholic because I believe in its definition as both original and universal. That doesn't mean that I don't see one thousand, nine hundred and fifty seven years of tradition based on much original falsehood. Or is it? Is it based on traditional worship of Jesus, or the idea that Jesus was the Son of God? Is it as the Council of Nicaea declared in 325A.D. Jesus is God, "God from God, light from light, true God from true God; begotten, not made; one in being with the Father?"
As I see it, and I was raised Presbyterian, all Protestant faiths have their origins in disputes over details, emphasis, nuance and the authority of documents that were themselves tampered with by earlier righteous, self-righteous and sometimes angry men. As I said in the beginning, between the Protestants and the Catholics there are two-billion people with a vested interest in tradition, many of whom have their eyes squeezed tight and their hands cupped over their ears, saying "na na na na na" as loudly as they can so that the real Yeshua, that Orthodox Jew who lived and talked and died for them, doesn't screw with their image of Jesus of Nazareth, that Danish-looking guy on their dining room wall.
From a sociological standpoint we are generally the religion of our grandfathers. As long as the old man is alive, it's really hard to tell him you're having an original thought about Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammed. Still, I cannot bring myself to point to the walls of my Cathedral and tell my son, "This is what Jesus had in mind." Harder still the mega churches and their narcissistic televangelist hacks in $3000 suits selling the apocalypse for $24 a book. I say we blow it all up then call in the Archeologists, historians, philosophers and educated priests of all persuasions. Let's insist they leave their agendas and vested mythologies in the sacristy then maybe, just maybe we can build it again with honesty instead of self-interest, compassion instead of delusion; and this time without the gold, and the marble, and the hypnotic big-screen TV. What would Jesus do? I think he would point to the guy with the nice fire pit and ripe apples and say, "We'll meet at your house. I'll bring the wine."
"What will we eat, Lord?"
"Don't worry about it."
"Who's in charge?"
"No one! That's the beauty of it. We will all speak freely from our hearts without fear of excommunication or dead relatives, without fear of being turned into naked slaves, or burned at the stake, or made to feel low in any way. Not that there's anything wrong with being naked. It should feel good the wear the skin God gave you. Just don't forget the sunscreen, `cause we've messed with the sky and made it dangerous. Make sure someone picks up Hazel. She's not getting around so well these days. And remember, love God will all your heart and love one another too. Nothing else matters as much as you think it does."


Comments: 48
However, what drives people to belief in something which we cannot prove and is backed up with much writing by other people who, it could be said, were even more naive than us? It could be said, the need to believe in 'something.'
Check my article about some of the possible background. "NOW HERE'S A THOUGHT...can you be a good person without religion?"
The problems is, we are ALL (ideally) conditioned from birth. We have a father, the figure of authority, strength, power, whom we must obey (or so we have learnt). We have a mother, symbol of nurturing, protection, forgiveness and understanding, role model of submission. We are programmed to be both, we are strong leaders and submissive followers. A leader is in charge, telling others how it is, how others should be living their lives. A follower is happy to be told what to do, what to wear, what to eat...and what to think (after all, it LOOKS an easy life when all your thinking is done for you) It's the old syndrome, 'if I were you, I'd do this...'
The trouble is, that 'you' ISN'T 'me' and cannot think for me, no matter how clever you think you are. We are all individuals. We find strength in being in groups, it's the way we have survived, in families, clans, settlements, villages, communities.
Being a good person, being considerate to the rest of your group, started long before the year zero when the calendar became important for some people. There WAS history before the year zero, people DID exist, DID think, DID behave well-and badly-before the person, or persons, called 'Jesus' was born. Life HAS evolved and is still evolving.
However, as I point out in my own article on Gather, many things were done, all in the name of a 'god,' whoever 'he' was, cruelty, abuse, torture, imprisonment and even murder. Surely they can't all be right. Surely those cannot be good examples of what it's like to have a 'faith.'??
It would be arrogance to announce that we have all the wisdom we need, here and now. But it would also be arrogance to assume that a collection of old writings, written by well-meaning but culturally different people, translated and adapted by many others also with biases, selected and repeated by a self-appointed few, holds the key to all our present day questions. Where, in any document, does it say that invading another country is OK as long as we tell others that country has some really awful weapons, and it turns out it was only a rumour, a mistake, or just a lie? Does it also mention, that to say 'god' is on your side legitimises the hurt you cause to your fellow man in another country?
Sometimes, through the community of a church, there is good being done, a togetherness which does positive things, gives support to everyone. The exceptions, it could be said including Westboro, is when hatred is legitimised because the bible's texts are used as the bullets for the weapon, creating no more than a perverse kind of excitement in a self-righteous group, on top of the lack of respect from others outside of it.
I choose to dance to the beat of my own drum, to listen to the beat of my own heart.
Peace.
What I believe is that they, like all of us, were searching for the ultimate Master of the Universe(s). In no generation have all cultures come to a consenus, not yet anyway. Maybe that day will come soon now that knowledge is increasing. I think, rather than placing blame, we should accept what has happened as part of our evolution, and begin to acknowledge that no one had the perfect truth. Perhaps it's time to put all the pieces of the puzzle together rather than having them strewn all over the table. Perhaps it's time to realize we'd be better off coming together and sharing religions, philosophies, and sciences, so that we can have a better fullness.
Blaming any one religion, or all of them for that matter, is not getting us anywhere but keeping us at odds. As we have seen throughout our history, people who are insulted rarely listen to what's being slapped in their face. It's up in each individual to keep an open mind when it comes to spiritual matters, so that the true search can take place. Perhaps it's true that there are many paths that lead to God, through many religions. Perhaps it's true that there is only one path leading to God, through the door of one's own heart.
"" I have met precious few people who take an objective look at the text itself. ""
I would point out, only because my own entire philosophy and the content of my own book requires the differentiation between "objective" and "subjective" meanings ... that "objectivity" is seen commonly as being of a "higher valuation" in comparing human thinking between that and what is considered so much "less", that of "subjectivity.
I see the "world view" of 5 sensory outer objectivity as being "trustable", like in "scientific" findings, to such a degree that almost anything "less" should be disregarded ... this the way "most" people are (have been) taught to "think" ...
The result being an inordinate "trusting" of outside "authority" of the social "institutions" both secular as well as religious ... and for the purpose of this article, it being the latter that have so affected our being where we are to this day in our understanding of "reality" ... something this article suggests we question ... and I fully agree !
Subjectivity of course is much harder to put a "value" upon, but it is, in my view, that which contains the highest source of personal truth for each of us in the form of our own INtuition ... which is a subjective and spiritual "suggestion" from the mind of God through our own Soul ... it deserves more trust and respect than to be subjectively "dismissed" ...
I know that you Curt did not intend your word meaning "that" way ... but it is part of my own "spiritual mission" to get people to take all words into a deeper essential consideration as a way of finding transcendent truth ... those truths being of a higher nature than that so often offered by "objective" orthodoxy ... IMnsHO. :-)
Rosa has offered here good words of advice also, as usual. But as usual part of that suggests we quoit blaming others ... generally a good idea ... except, in my view, where it NEEDS to be pointed out where the error in our thinking that contributes to world problems originates ... these things, such as said in this article, and much of that in my own book, just tell us where to look as a starting point of revision for the turning "the story" around as a means of intended improvement ... NOT as a simple judgmental "blaming" ... IMnsHO.
Thank you for the great article! ;-)
Blessings and best wishes form Moscow, Russia - Sveta
I am a very faithful person. I've had a life of such mystical stuff, none of which I sought, that I couldn't be anything but a believer in the presence of God, and the intervention of souls who've passed to the other side, yet concern themselves with us on a personal level.
I like Don's point that we should be looking for someone now. It reminds me of the Christian joke about the the man on his roof during a flood waving off three rescue attempts because he's waiting for God to save him. When he drowns and get's to Heaven, he laments that God didn't come, at which point God says, "You idiot, I sent three people to save you."
I believe I see two basic types of people when it comes to the deeply religious. One is adamant that what's in the Bible, word for word, is all that God ever needed to say. Their minds are closed to new revelation. They wait for death, or the Second Coming, while trying hard not to be a sinner. The other time sees the actions and beauty of God all around them and is ever listening for the "still, small, voice." I think the rub is in how we changed the definition of "messiah" to being synonymous with "Son of God." The original definition was more akin to "Rescuer from our oppressor."
Rome was the reason they called Jesus a messiah. The biggest problem with Christianity was that it was adopted by Rome and subsequent empires. After the edict of Milan in 313 the message of Jesus simplified and adapted to the paradigm of Empire. The enemy that defined Jesus as Messiah - Rome - was now politically incorrect (suicidal) to talk about. Empire went from a bad thing to a good thing, so much of what Jesus stood for, so to speak, was suppressed. At this point the gnostic texts go underground and bishops start having devoted priests and men killed for thinking of Jesus in the old way. Being Christian increasingly became synonymous with being Romanized and an avenue to political power over the heathen hordes.
But to get to Don's greater point. I believe that God has been sending messiahs all along. Or rather, men and women come to a realization of how God would view what's going on and decide to speak truth to power. We treat most of them he same way too. That's essentially what Jesus did. That makes Martin Luther King a messiah we should have listened to. Like Jesus, after thirty years or so, people are. Gandhi was a messiah. Jefferson was a lazy messiah (demotivated by wealth and comfort.) who, if we had lost would have been hung and some of us we be calling ourselves Jeffersonians. Thoreau would have been his Paul. St. Patrick was a messiah. Even Frances Bacon was a messiah of sorts, forcing enlightenment upon an empire that cared nothing for the masses within it's own borders.
I'm an historian. I can't look at the Bible and not pick it apart, separate politics from divine revelation. I look at the Gospel of Mark, for instance, (the John-Mark Peter sent to see what Paul was saying to the Gentiles, despite never having done the walk with Jesus) and I notice that at the end, there is no resurrected of the savior. It's the gospel closest to Jesus crucifixion. We don't get a resurrection ending until after Paul has been everywhere telling his story about Jesus.
I distill it down to this. Empire effected Christianity. Jesus was all about love, acceptance of everyone no matter what, the communion of friends. He said that God was within us and all around us, not in buildings made of stone. After 313 if became all about buildings made of stone and filling them with people who were worried about where they would go after death. Rome and all Empires who've modeled themselves after them, were snobs, us versus them -- the dirty, uncivilized them -- Puritans looking at natives and calling them savages. Jesus would have called them friends. As pyramids of power took over, Jesus went to the walls of buildings and became the excuse for atrocity and the reason "we" are so much better than "they."
I am still listening and looking for our new messiah. (My next article will address why.) I assume he, or she, will say the same things as all the others. Love one another and love God. Empire IS the problem. We will be judged by how we treat the least among us: the poor, the elderly, the children, the widows, the have-nots. Don't worry about where you will go when you die. Worry about what you do here, now, and in death you will find contentment. Power corrupts, etc.
Peace to you all, and thank you for caring so much that you are willing to take the time to write to one another. That's the most important thing.
I'm off to the bonfire.
CJS
And thanks for sharing more of your beliefs, Curt. I believe that we are all called to be messiahs. We must all rise to the level of spiritual mastery that is part of our awakening. The "Spirit of Truth" is alive within all of us. Some may call it the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't matter what we call it. I see it's manifestations here in this group and in the world, although not as much as I would like. But I trust that it is active and spreading around the world.
Sveta, I love Spong's books. I had the opportunity to hear him speak and he is a fantastic and very lively speaker. He has found himself embraced by the Unity community and now does a lot of seminars and guest speaking at various Unity churches and Unity Village.
Carla, I know nothing at all about Spong, except name recognition, but I sure do agree with your take on the rest of what you said.
Donald, I am not surprised at your view, as I have sensed it in your words for some time now and suspected we would have to discuss it eventually. I believe I have mentioned it before to you, but it must have either went by you, or, you elected, as I did, to discuss it later, so as not to disrupt the rapport that we have shared. ( I hope we will still share that anyway) :-)
So let me run my concept by you once more. I do not, at the moment, remember the specifics, but the Urantia Book is probably what I go by the most for my own interpretation of the "Spirit of Truth" ... which I have myself equated, for all practical "Trinity" (+=-) purposes, as being the Spirit as (=) generically ... which then stands for whatever "name" we want to apply for the most transcendent Spiritual relationship that living humans can experience, which is unconditional love and that involving absolute truth for all intents and purposes ...
Granted that many will experience just that and associate it to some "other" idea, concept, or being. But the key thing to me is the experience of the association and what that brings the person. There is that saying; "by their fruit they shall be known" ... which becomes ever so important when it comes to any recognition by others.
The more important thing though, is the knowing relationship the person has with God, by whatever name ... most important is that God Knows !
When I had my experience, there was no doubt at all in my mind that it was from God, no doubt at all. I had never had a consideration or real concern about God prior to that, which amounted to anything much. Thus my mind was not preconditioned to think any certain things about any of it, surely NOT what to expect, because I never even knew, let alone would believe if I had known of, that God could really appear to anyone ... being then an agnostic, I had no expectations.
I had always basically went along with secular orthodoxy on that, like, "Oh yeah, that idiot actually thinks he's talking to God, better get the straight jacket on him quick" ...
Well, I have spoken "in mind", heard distinctly in mind, and actually carried on a two party conversation, "objectively" in the form of "automatic writing" on at least one occasion. I have the evidence in my possession.
Thus, the Spirit, as far as I am concerned, can be considered a persons own Soul, as their INternal higher Self that transcends the lower self that is the ego, it could be "The Comforter", the "Spirit of Truth", the "Holy Spirit", the "Spirit of Christ", or "God" ... all amounting effectively to the very same thing as far as we people are concerned ... because it stands for what Carl Jung called an "archetype", which is "generic" for things of a realm above that result in a "general" classification of relationships manifested from the "source archetype" ... as I presently understand it anyway.
There is one critical thing about my opinions, it is that as far as the Holy Bible goes, I put little stock in the veracity of it over-all, except when my own INtuition tells me that something is applicable to be taken a certain way, seldom if ever literally, I seek and value always the subjective esoteric over the objective exoteric of the literal word.
So though I have read, I spend little time tied to just that, I have studied deeply the Urantia book, having read it through cover to cover 5 times, I have studied the OAHSPE and found it very enlightening also because it answered some very specific questions I had. If one were to come to my home and see my library of the books I own which I have read, the photocopies of the covers of ones I have read that I do not own, the Internet manuscripts that I have downloaded, printed out and read, and so much more, one just might begin to think that I have done my "homework" ... the point being, that I had no prior opinions before I "awoke" and all learning has been subsequent to that and looking ONLY for highest TRUTH whatever it turned out to be ... I entrusted my findings completely to God ... by whatever name. Generic God !
Had I been a practising "Christian" having faith in the dogma and creed, I would have never been allowed to believe that what happened to me had any value or credence according to "church authority" ... thus it surely would have NEVER happened ... at least in the sense of the "Truth that sets one Free" ... because I am completely free in every way ... and I love it !
I have met people that had similar spiritual awakenings, who were predisposed to attribute it to their prior religious beliefs ... and they fall into a lock-step with the exoteric church dogma and become "trapped" ... they love it, and maybe "think" themselves saved and free ... but not by "my" standards based upon my experience ... I would feel sorry for them if they didn't so put themselves as having the real experience as they often claim mine is false and of my imagination brought on by Satan ... how sad for them I think, and one of my goals has been to point out these "differences" to folks interested but not yet "set in their ways" ...
Those that have been convinced that they must wait for "THE" messiah as in the form of one determined and predicted being, in the mold of the historic few that became famous over time, such as specifically "Jesus" in the "2nd Coming" IN BODY, will have an awful long wait I predict ... but of course that is their choice and their business ...
Donald, now back to you specifically, you seem to have considered Baha'ull'ah (and his "group" of relatives) as "that" messiah, with possibly another expected that you are waiting for ... I am not up on your belief well enough to really speak of it ... but in effect, you seem to seek the "proof in the physical", the objective person that will be "known" by enough seekers to be "qualified" to be believed when he speaks the subjective truth.
Of what little I know of "him", along with all of the "others" that you and others have named, such as Jesus, Mohammed, etc ... I take nothing away from any of them, and some of them I may attribute much more to than others ... but in God's eyes (so to speak) each was just as important as the other ... and I am sorry to say, because I know how most people would take it, but I myself feel qualified to be of such a group.
Granted, I have no followers, nor do I want any, I am unknown and that is fine also, but my message and the equation, the Basic Equation of Truth as the BET (+=-) IS MOST CRITICAL ... and I am confident that it will eventually be appreciated for that ... but it really does not matter to me, because I do God's bidding and that is all that is expected of me ... if I plant only one mental seed and it sprouts and grows, that is enough, even if I don't, I will have tried, and that also is enough. A raging fire can begin with only one tiny spark under the right conditions.
My main message is to NOT WAIT for a messiah to come ... your Grace is already withIN, just waiting to be recognised and partnered up with ... self/Self is such a partnership. IMnsHO.
"it really only takes a generation for people to declare themselves the self-anointed keepers of Truth"
Well, I wouldn't doubt it. I also would give two cents for the opinions of a man than rambles on for pages, declaring supposed fact after supposed fact, about the Book, Christ, and God. I know the God of Abraham, so I know that no one who did, would take it upon themselves to state hundreds of such "facts", on their own authority. It's not possible, to my mind. I wouldn't state one.
however, I doubt that the Nazaraean you write of died for me....
read THE HIRAM KEY. I think you'll like it.
Let me propose another alternative for your consideration. First, that Jesus meant exactly what He said and not some contrived and convoluted explanation to fit the preferences of people later for their own convenience. Second, that we (you, I and everyone) has always had the spiritual ability to have direct and personal contact with the CREATOR and THE CREATIVE FORCE of the "ALL" that is. The predicted (by Jesus) living COMFORTER to come was part of a more formal and generalized "advisory" process by God for affecting and effecting social evolution through specific PLANS brought from time to time ("I send unto you wise men, and prophets and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city..." (Math. 23). Jesus here is not speaking of some spiritual adviser to be contacted individually in the "other world" but of real, flesh and blood Manifestations of the Godhead (such as Himself), and when He says "I send unto you..." He is not speaking as Jesus, the man but as God (because He is speaking of both the past and the future). He even predicts that the COMFORTER (which is one of Those He is speaking about here) will be persecuted from "city to city". Which indeed He was. Jerry, are you one of those pretenders who want to interpret Jesus for their own benefit. Or are you a listener (both of the flesh and blood Manifestation and the Spirit which is in "Heaven" and never descends) or are you just another one of those who manipulates scripture for your own convenience? That is, are you "just another clergyman" but of your own "church" or are you truly an enlightened individual who can help mankind to be truly united and harmonious without the need for a politicized "church" paradigm?
I realize that my words are surely not for everyone, not for most, and maybe not even for many, but my only desire is to help those who can use, just as I was so helped in the readings I pursued in seeking understanding after my "awakening" ...
I doubt that there is a single thing more I could say to you at this time, to assure you of anything, you will believe what you will, even about me and my message ... yet I am always more than willing to continue a dialogue if there is any desire or chance of teaching ... as far as learning goes from my perspective, I am open to what God sends my way, but I no longer seek anything otherwise, my past experiences have been sufficient, beyond imagination, to satisfy my needs for now. IMnsHO.
I am not so sure that you are reading my words properly, because I see no relationship of similarities between what I say and what I know of (which is admittedly NOT from "inside" of) what the "Churches" say about the Comforter ...
And of course IF one wanted to really understand me, there is always the free version of my book ... but no guarantees there either in understanding or acceptance, just ask John.
The Celtic Church flourised in western France, Britain and Ireland until the seventh century and then accepted the supremacy of Rome and "went underground."
The Nazarenes of the middle east (as you say Jesus was not "of Nazareth" but a Nazari,) shated in common with the Arians and Celtic Christians, a non - hierarchic system of communal living in which members of the community had and gladly accepted, an obligation to support each other.
Another group that held to this philosophy were The Cathars (Bons Chretiens or Good Chistians) who were numerous in South West France and Northern Spain until the thirteenth century when, having refused to accept the authority of the Pope they were slaughtered in the Albigensian Crusade. Yes, there's a lot of history to which the pious are adept at turning a blind eye.
I personally believe the reason for the success of the Dan Brown book about "The Da Vinci Code" is because though it was "impure fiction" it was still based upon so much information that has so much truth hidden in it, and the "mystery" that that is to our "logic" is due to the powers of the institutional orthodoxy to have hidden it from us over the ages ... yet our spiritual intuition still knows and whispers truth to those who will listen.
IMnsHO.
"Let me propose another alternative for your consideration . . . "
"First, that Jesus meant exactly what He said and not some contrived and convoluted explanation to fit the preferences of people later for their own convenience . . .
Second, that we (you, I and everyone) has always had the spiritual ability to have direct and personal contact with the CREATOR and THE CREATIVE FORCE of the "ALL" that is. The predicted (by Jesus) living COMFORTER to come was part of a more formal and generalized "advisory" process by God for affecting and effecting social evolution through specific PLANS brought from time to time . . . "
Your second part, seems precisely the sort of thing you said was not called for, in your first part. I certainly agree that it is best to refer to the actual words in the Book from which one draws one's notions of what Jesus meant, but you did not do that, and rather, generated your own meaning, which simply has nothing at all in common with the words Jesus speaks of the "comforter".
I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I see no grounds whatsoever, in those and the subsequent words, for concluding that Jesus was referring to a sequence of human beings, or "a more formal and generalized "advisory" process by God for affecting and effecting social evolution through specific PLANS brought from time to time". Obviously, the world can see human beings. He calls him the Spirit of Truth, and says clearly that he will be known directly by those who " . . . hath my commandments, and keepeth them . . . There is no stipulation regarding the "evolution" of society, or the arrival of subsequent "Christs".
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them it is that loveth me, and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Immediately following those words, in the Book from which all of this matter comes to us, one of his followers actually ASKS of the very aspect you introduce into the picture here ;
Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
I fervently agree that one ought to stick with "exactly what He said and not some contrived and convoluted explanation to fit the preferences of people later for their own convenience . . . ". So I do.
Donald, the things along those same lines that you have said recently, I agree with also, I just do not agree that those "named" are as special as most do (most who claim them the One and Only for their religious purposes) ... it is mostly that they have a history that is rememberable for those who want to vote specialty upon them, there could have been many others who made a big difference also, but who's names just never got so publicised ... any of us has every bit as much potential to be "as them or better" ... but as long as one insists that is not so, or not possible, that one will have no chance of being so ... God helps those who help themselves help others ...
Second, though, is my view -- which you admit to some degree is valid -- that we are "spoon fed" a degree of this "universal knowledge" by the process of "revelation" to "speed things along" in our social evolution in order to keep up spiritually (in the sense of moral responsibly) with our also God given intellectual abilities (science). To me it is quite obvious that if we do not "progress" ethically and morally (with a deep sense of personal responsibility) at more or less the same pace as we do technically, we will eventually bumble things in our social relations to the point of "accidentally" destroying ourselves. Thus God "pokes us with a sharp" (my euphemism for the process of directed prophetic revelation) in order to keep us "moving" in the right direction. It is therefore a two pronged attack by God on our lethargic tendency to "stuff ourselves with 'goodies'" to the point of fatal obesity. One is your solution and one is the one that I suggest. So it is not a matter of your being "wrong" and my being "right" or my being "wrong" and your being "right." It is a case of us presenting two perfectly valid approaches that are mutually self supporting.
Such messages being a means or method to self improve one by one, so we too could "become as them only greater" and each teaching each other ... rather than "institutionalizing" dogmatically and fighting one against the other individually or as a group or class.
Then when such as Baha'ull'ah, or Joseph Smith, or The Urantia Book, comes along, no one gets together to compare the commonalities, they just fight over the differences ... THAT is NOT why God sends revelations to us ... that is mans egotistical DUALITY (+/-) expressing itself.
IMnsHO.
For these reasons, I fully support your efforts in getting people to start taking personal responsibility to use their innate spiritual powers to improve themselves and this society we are now about to build on a world wide level. But I am also a realist in recognizing that the human race as a whole is not ready to do this individually without considerable input from an "organized religion" specifically constituted by the Godhead on a new, radically (but deceptively traditional) paradigm. It cannot be done with the old paradigm that was manufactured by people who were not advanced enough in maturity to anything other than what they did in all good conscience.
I guess when the people of the earth have come to see God basically as the used bathwater that has resulted over the ages, I suspect all babies in it probably look the same ... I agree, we should save yours (and potentially "ours").
(to Jerry) "I fully agree with your view that we all have the ability to "touch God" with our spirits and "tap universal knowledge" individually."
Yes, I understand that. I see that you believe in that ability to "tap universal knowledge individually". But your logic that a failure to believe that, is what causes great division and fragmentation, is to me, very weak. Consider please; What exactly is the difference between an extremely egocentric persons belief that they are possessed of great wisdom, which others cannot attain, and so resist . . . and the individual that believes they are possessed of great wisdom, which others cannot attain, and so resist . . . cause God is directing their thoughts?
Are these, in a "functional" sense, really any different? If God intended people to have such insight into "universal knowledge", then why would a completely ego-maniacal person behave identically (from a functional perspective), as the most devout servant of God? Would that not make distinguishing between them utterly impossible, if that egomaniac happens to think their wisdom is coming directly from God?
Does it not seem reasonable to you, that God would wish one sort of person, who was exactly what He did not want people to be, would appear to folks to be somewhat differently motivated, than those He highly approved of? Once the notion that one is directly receiving wisdom from God, became acceptable to pronounce and act upon . . . what on earth would stop every spoiled child and self centered adolescent, from assuming their urges and ideas were coming from a great God-source within them? How could we tell our children to mind even simple rules of good relationship, if they were raised in a society where most everyone claimed to have a direct link to universal knowledge? Would we say to them; "Except you. you don't have the link" . . . ? On what grounds would we make that determination?
The former talks the talk but does not walk the walk ... but only the real walkers know enough truth to recognise the real differences ... the fools just fool each other and believe what they want about everything else as they pat each other on the back for mutual ignorant support of their false pride ...
The effects are readily visible all over for those in the know. The others only claim to know, but they do not.
IMnsHO.
We must not become confused between God and the gods ... IMnsHO.
"God has no special desires or wishes for humans."
Well, perhaps your God does not, but my God loves us very much, and wants the very best for us. The very best, doesn't happen to be endless pleasant sensations, by a long shot. To live truly meaningful lives (of immense duration), it is necessary that we learn of a great many things, and understand FOR OURSELVES, the value of orderliness on a thousand levels of action and interaction.
Just basking in bliss forever, ain't my idea of heaven . . . is it yours?
I call God the very highest imaginable concept that involves unconditional love and absolute truth ... where everything in creation that is in any way less than that, no matter how close otherwise is less, and at best a "god" related to THE God.
In that (my) understanding, Jesus the Christ would be a god,. but NOT God. By the same token then, Satan would also be a god, albeit maybe NOT as "nice" of one as people like ti think compared to Jesus, but never the less, a brother.
Placed into a hierarchical relationship then would be the (Father) God as THE ONE (1) ... under which in the various descending "realms" would be gods as say x and y and mankind as z ... as follows:
1/x/y/z ... I might at this time say that the polytheists of history more than likely considered that those they related to were mere god(s) ... I doubt that any of them (or few of them) considered there to be ONLY ONE GOD, let alone a God ... unless they saw their g as G ... like John seems to.
IMnsHO.
You're a polytheist. You call yourself a god. End of story.
Ian - right! Nice glimpse into the past. I teach theology to Catholics, but got the job because of my scholarship on the early centuries. I believe that few people really grasp the impact the long duration of time and pressure has on things like rocks and religion - how a thing can change to utterly from what it started as. The book on the morphing of Christianity would be many volumes indeed.
Whoever said the view of Jesus we have is basically the one left by the Reformation I would agree with only to the point that now, I think, we're finally getting a better picture, better reception, so to speak. We've spent so many generations emulating Romans and Empire because we were trying as a society to become them that we forgot they were the original enemy of all free people.
Jerry - I'm struggling with how you percieve my perception of the Comforter. I don't mean to sounded jaded when I say this. I think it's our job to be comforters to one another. When I ingest the body of Christ, metaphorically or symbolically or spiritually, I see it as my call to take it to the world. I too am disgruntled, to put it mildly, that the politial intests of my church try to wedge themselves between me and the world, or me and God, as though it weren't in my nature to extend compassion, good will and good works without their stamp of orthodoxy -- or as some Protestant faiths use what seems to me to be a set list of code words that "prove" they're the ones that will get to heaven. "I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I am born again," etc.
I most definitely believe that Jesus meant precisely what he said. What I resent is how all religions I have ever come in contact with try to elevate the dogma of their beloved founders and "tradition" to the same level of importance; as though Orthodoxy equals the words of Jesus. That, in my opinion is arrogant men trying to turn the worhip of Jesus into a club with a secret handshake. Those who don't dress right, or cut their hair right are immediately suspect. The worst I can think of are the Puritans who founded America and much of the American psyche. They pushed hard the principle that wealth equals the approval of God and therefore any means of accululating wealth must also be of God. That has once again reared its ugly head in some of the meg-churches where driving a Bentley equals God's love. Ick!
I believe it is human nature to rationalize our faults. Even guilt is self-indulgent. It's our way of saying to ourselves that we are better people than our actions, our actual behavior to one another indicates. We are what we do.
My purpose in writing this article, originally, was to summarize some of what Biblical archeology has uncovered. The fourth-century and Rome's adoption of Christianity, in my opinion, obliterated anything Jesus or Paul, or certainly Peter intended. I think the biggest issue modern Christianity will face in the next fifty years is what to do with what we now know. Could an organization as huge and politicial as the Catholic Church think critically about its history and role in those changes? What if we find that Paul got a little over zealous and added quite a few details he borrowed from the pagen lore of the Gentiles he was preacher to about Jesus, to get them to relate? What if they weren't true?
I think there are two great reasons for Christianity as we know it, (an a thousand small ones). The first is its adoption by Rome. The second is the brilliance, beauty and truth of the words of Jesus. They are the Yin and Yang of Christianity. One may be driven by power and money. But the other is driven by our internal desire to connect with God, by whatever name we call him... or her. That's another good example. The church fathers hated women so much they declared the Holy Spirit a man, well, male. Does that alter the Wisdom and intervention of the Holy Spirit? I think not. But it does say a lot about the men who did it.
God and gods. Hmm. That reminds me of St. Anthony in the desert. He wrote that he was approached by a centaur who spoke to him and asked him, essentially, "What's going on? What is all this?" Whereupon Anthony tells him that he and all his ilk are done, over. The centaur walks away never to be seen again except in the myths of the previous age.
I jokingly still refer to gods. I believe the early Church tried to replace them with saints. People had personal gods until Christianity told them they were done - like St. Anthony. To me they are words that symbolize our lack of understanding of what happens on the other side of this veil. Are we more powerful? Should we even think in terms of power? Ever? We assume they have answers that we don't have, can't have on this side, and so we much call them something different. More words. Guides, gods, ghosts.
I call mine Kevin.
Peace,
Curt
I have in the past been deep mystically into the "new-age" channeling of countless historic "names" of personalities, including Jesus, Mary, and so many "others" with monikers such as ... oh, I won't go into it, there are so many ... and what they had to "say" (and that surely "influenced" to some degree by the veracity and personal thoughts of the channeler) to those that read or listened to the message, was powerfully resonating indeed to me and others ... but I always reminded myself, that for me personally, there was no higher truth that mattered more than that of my own god, my higher Self that was direct in line with and in touch with the One and ONLY God of ALL ... the God of the UNIverse that I considered myself now a part of ... which for all I really know in fact may "just" be a "cosmos" ... but whatever it is, it is in my mind a definite transcendence to the "world" view held by most people here.
And whatever may prove to be outside (or inside on micro realms, both macro and micro are in fact unseparated in truth) of "our" universe ... other universes (as the Urantia Book says that there are) that may also be related to ours on some differing level, there may even be a GOD of God ... which means then that there would be a GOD/God(s)/god(s) ... who am I to say for sure ?
But what I do say, is that for all practical purposes, we should deal with our own universe before we deal with others ... and I am most certainly dealing within that in place of the limited world centric view held by religions who claim to speak for more than they are qualified to do so ... I have personal experiences which to me may well transcend the "duly authorized" citations of handed down authority by others also "duly authorized" in the very same book learned way ... ad infinitum.
Thus, I do maintain that we keep it basic as in the KISS principle ... but not "so" basic that we confuse God and god(s) when that is what is taking place ... in error.
If one assumes that the Bible, particularly the New Testament, is "more or less" accurate and a true history of what was said, then one must also not arbitrarily decide what is valid and what is not valid without substantial proof. So that to speculate that because this newly discovered tone slab indicates a similar postulated prediction of a coming Messiah who will rise from the dead in three days means that this has been adopted by early Christians to polish up the story for their Jewish audience is also very intellectually disingenuous. The writing on the stone slab is, for instance, barely readable and subject (particularly on this subject) to "guess work" in trying to read it. It is again a case of pure speculation, however reasonable that may seem to those who prefer to think of it that way. But this is an "across-the-board" fault with this kind of speculation.
But if you give any credence to the story of Jesus, as most Christians do (actually, all of them by definition) then I maintain that one cannot pick and choose what to think about Jesus's message by massive interpretations based on what one wants to believe in accordance with one's developing views of reality as discovered in time. Either Jesus said what He said, or didn't. To put into His words your own meaning is the greatest sin one can commit. At least from a religious point of view. Which does not include those places which quite obviously were meant to be "interpreted" by Jesus's own intents and way of expressing Himself.
My point, Jerry, with respect to your comment above, is that while I agree with you that one can get guidance directly from God through spiritual investigation on one's own, one cannot rely on that "inspiration" any more than one can rely on any other human activity. We can be fooled by what we see even... such as with mirages. Nothing in our experience in life is precisely as we see it. We can only approach it. That is why, I maintain, that the Godhead has specifically designed a process of divine revelation (such as occurred with Jesus or Muhammad) that is what we call religion. So that both of these aspects (both what you suggest and the specific process of divine revelation) is necessary. One cannot rely -- I maintain -- on one's own unaided efforts even though one also needs this personal effort to solidify the "divine process" within one's own mind and soul. This is the very purpose of meditation and the practice of worship in whatever form one chooses to accept and/or adopt.
And that is the very reason that I reject religions in favour of my generic spirituality ... and as for "all of the rest" of what you said ... I still value highest my own spiritual intuition for the final word in anything and everything ... after all, God and Spirit are subjective in relation to mankind, so though I read and consider most everything in my search for ultimate truth (which is God), still the final decision is my own subjective determination ... for those who do NOT value their relationship with God-Spirit internally, then they may be forced into religions if they make that their priority ... their decision and to each their own.
Yet I do believe that when we have organized institutions that are promoting their "brand" of religion, and "supposedly" being the folks the most concerned with truth and the love of God, when they evidently are not that, which is now obvious to almost everyone, even their apologists who choose to selfishly ignore or spin and twist the message also for their own sick ego gratification ... it seems to me that we could do no worse than if everyone was just told that the truth of and the Spirit of God resided right within each of them ... at least that way they would have to deal with it at some level ... and even if they ignored the message it would be no worse for them than what they are now doing, either ignoring or supporting the lesser message of untruth.
The major problem with our world is that everyone has been conditioned to rely on someone else rather than take self responsibly ... the parents will take care of it, the teachers at school, the church, the government, the "messiah", or just time itself.
Everyone needs to come to know without a doubt that God does exist and that Spiritual Karma does keep track and balances the books on the personal and social levels.
Once they realize the truth of that, they will become a willing and honest practitioner ... meanwhile and forever, I commend any religion such as your own that has the greatest overall goals in mind, we should all help each other ... but it still all begins and ends with the individual ... IMnsHO.
"It's vanity, and I'm guilty of it, to attempt to describe or ascribe the nature and mind of God based on books written by men, no matter how devoted and sincere they are - even and perhaps especially the Bible . . . "
And if I were to say it is vanity to attempt to describe or ascribe the nature and mind of God based on thoughts and images which come to one's own mind, for the precise reason you stated;
"because it is so full and so varied in thought, intent and era [error, or err, perhaps?]. God is as God is. We are merely its curious creation, new to the path of knowledge."
. . . then, your words make much sense, and I agree. However, by definition, any God worthy of the title, can generate, and preserve, whatever words they choose to. If the thing you worship cannot actually cause something like a Book to exist, then how on earth could they generate, and preserve, an entire world? (excuse the pun ; ). You see, by deferring the matter, away from something like the Bible, one does not then encounter a "personal" reality wherein there is anything much more consistent, but rather, much less. I am a mature human being, and while some may still pretend that the world within is solid and sustained . . . I KNOW better. I can look at it at any moment and see clearly that there is nothing in there even remotely solid or steady.
If one introduces a fantasy mind, not subject to the sort of waivery, vague, drifting quality, which I can observe as the actuality of my mind anytime. . . then sure, such an imaginary mind can do just about anything one declares it can do. But here on earth, ain't no such animal. We must choose from among that which is actually available, if we wish to apprehend our real circumstance. It is eminently logical that God would cause something far more sustained and precise to exist, than what we get from our own imaginations or sensing, if He wished to provide some reasonable guidance in comprehending His intent and nature.
"
If our ego is somewhat normal in that it is not fear based, it can relate to imagination "intuitively" and value it for the spontaneous good that yours shows, then trust the results and use those memories to build upon with ever more trust that you will do good and experience good back accordingly. That is healthy.
On the "other hand" is the go concept of self that is ashamed, guilty, unloving and untrusting, that will have no, or little, self confidence and not trust itself much at all ... probably not trusting others much either ... often blaming, fearing and maybe even hating ... either crawling into a shell for protection or lashing out at others, destructive to self and others ... very unhealthy.
Health can be spontaneous acting, while illness will be guarded in acting. IMnsHO.
When one has a feeling of Spiritual Participation with a universe containing an unconditionally loving God and believes that as the highest truth, then if they always seek truth in what they relate to, there is never a need nor concern to be fearful, only to remain balanced in using your God granted gift of intelligence ... in doing so, at the very worst, the chance of error in judgement is no greater than 50/50 ... but the odds are really so much more in your favour than that really ... God helps those who help themselves. IMnsHO.
Jerry, I think I understand better what you meant. I was thrown at first by your use of gods, as it seemed unlike you and I knew that you said you were panentheistic in your views.
My view is that there is a Christ or divine nature within each of us. Some call it Spirit or our Higher Self. I see that nature as a force or energy that is our very essence and not a being. It is that which is within us that doesn't change or die and which is an element of our soul. I do not see myself as god so much as I see myself as an individualized expression of God in the world. I also see us as cells in the one body that is God or the Universe. That is my perspective on this topic.