Everyone Else Seems to Like It

If only more people had the wisdom that only years seem to produce. Really, can any of us say we would think this way when we were teens or in our early 20's? Not myself, hence, choices of regret (a lot like Wendy's story). Experience is our guide; years on this earth are our "gray hairs" of wisdom. We wouldn't want to turn back the clock to our youth when it means we haven't matured to this level of thought. David, the woman who finds you finds something special. Do her a favor and share these thoughts with her. If she agrees and waits three months to kiss you, she's a keeper. ;0)

As a recovering manic "ho", I'm seeing your vantage point clearly now. I read this three times and need to post it as a reminder to self: don't dive in head first into relationships! As an appealing woman, its all too easy to have one night stands and become a source of desperate obsession. However, as you point out, we tend to project ourselves onto one another and the feelings seem holllow so I remain humble (somewhat). But this leads to a disregard for true passion and love, for I'm unable to recognize the difference. My best first kiss was with a stranger whom I'd known for a few days but felt a deep spiritual connection with. I later found he was a cowardly child who beat me mentally and physically. So I continue to be disillusioned by relationships and refuse to date strangers. Since all my friends are men and married, I have few oppurtunities to meet anyone so I'm "stuck in the middle with you". Sing along if you will....you will. Damn long post! sorry.

No way am I waiting three months of dating to kiss a guy. Fact is, I have had relationships end due to sexual incompatibility. If the sexual chemistry isn't there, forget it, we can just be in the friendzone forever. I'm not interested in having a romantic relationship with someone I don't want to have sex with...otherwise, we'd all marry our same sex best friends.

You seem really slow to trust people, BTW. I can meet someone and be best friends with them in an instant. Some of those people end up staying in my life for a long long time, and some don't, but the point is, you seem to be setting up arbitrary boundaries around yourself before you let people in.

Now, I don't think everyone should jump into the sack immediately, because we are all different people and have different needs in that arena. I'm just saying, if you open your heart a little more, you'll find that every person you meet is a friend.

I enjoy all of your writing, but on this piece the touch I like the most is the "jungian projections" tag.

If for no other reason than to create happy memories for your lucky lady to-be, you might want to try to enjoy that fleeting, fluttery infatuation stage. That is the bedrock upon which all future romance (note I do not say longstanding love, or friendship, but simply romance) is built.

David, until I cyber-met you, I had no idea there were any men in this world as nice as you are. All your points in this piece are good ones. People should definitely be very careful when falling in love because until you've known the person for a very long time and witnessed their reactions to many different situations and daily stresses, it's impossible to judge whether the person is suitable or not. Once you start the physical part of a relationship, you almost automatically become very attached and if the person is not worthy or capable of a relationship with the real you, a serious and long-lasting heart-break is going to be the result and we all know how devastating that is! Best wishes to you. Whoever you decide to hook up with next is one very lucky lady. I want to hear you sing opera some day...

Thanks to all for your thoughts/reactions.

Steph -- You are quite right that I am very slow to trust people. I am starstruck with a sort of envious amazement at people who are able to trust easily and who are not horribly hurt in the process. I take things very seriously, and if there's a way to unlearn that, I sure as heck haven't figured it out yet :-)

BTW, I think, based on my own experience, that it is quite possible to judge sexual compatibility without having sex, if . . . and only if . . . I know that I am having an honest conversation about sexuality with the woman to whom I am speaking. Attitudes, preferences, and levels of finesse are quite easy to gauge by the things people say, and by the way they handle themselves. I've had electrical chemical attractions to women whom I have never touched, and I didn't need to touch them to know that the sexual chemistry was there; but for me personally, it's very important to have more than that to be going on with. Conversely, it's possible for chemistry to arise from knowing and loving someone, as High Flying Spider Woman Liz Sosne would attest.

I have actually tried it both ways . . . responding to chemistry quickly, and building more slowly, and I know which way felt better to my personal physical/spiritual makeup, which is of course not how everyone would, could, or should feel about it. I found that sex with someone I didn't know well was kind of the equivalent of eating bad fast food . . . it took the edge off my appetite, but it didn't nourish me in any important way. That's kind of a bad analogy, but hey, it's still pretty early here.

I have to agree with you, intimacy is far more meaningful if you really KNOW the person, inside and out. Indiscriminate kisses when you're young is fun, but as you age and actually have a real relationship, kissing can be more intense. I know, I've been married 20 years and actually enjoy kissing him more now. Now indiscriminate sex really has no place, especially in the modern world; I have done it, wish I hadn't. Jennifer is right, you ARE one nice guy, why hasn't some lucky lady snapped you up yet?

Oh, so very many reasons . . . most of which have to do with my impossibly high standards and the impossibly high wall around my emotional body. Steph *does*have several valid and astute observations about how I conduct myself with people.

In reference to Steph's post, I think there's one thing that needs to be clarified. Men and women are very different creatures. Women tend to warm up very quickly to one another and the opposite sex. Our nature is to be more touchy, feely.

Also, many men aren't as thoughtful about these things as you, David. Albeit, you are not on an island. But it's a small island (I suspect) with a lot of very nice men who think similarly to yourself. I'm glad to know your thoughts on this topic today. It's been refreshing. Being "slow to trust people" can be a protective barrier, but ..hey, we aren't kids anymore and lifetime experiences shape how we see people, trust, distrust.... You are an awfully nice man with deep thoughts, David.

What did I just say? Good grief. I meant to say that you are NOT on an island alone... but it's a small one. lol I'm dizzy today.

David, I am much like you. I hate 'typical' dating and would much rather fall in love with a friend than fall in love with someone that I later realize doesn't make as good a friend as he did a 'date'. I wrote something about this a year or so ago - gonna look for it and see if it fits in a comment section.

I couldn't agree more!!!

"BTW, I think, based on my own experience, that it is quite possible to judge sexual compatibility without having sex..." Oh heavens no. I don't mean to put more pressure on you, but it's really more up to the guy than the gal to be good in bed, and no amount of talking it up will determine what happens when you hit the sheets.

I have a male friend I love DEARLY. We have a lot in common, we've been friends for years, and we used to date many years back. (We actually met at a BAR, go figure.)

I love him, but...he is bad in bed. Just bad.

I even find him attractive. But I can't stand the way he makes love.

He still wants to have sex with me. I don't have the heart to tell him...look...I care a lot about you, but I just can't stand having sex with you.

Maybe he's more compatible with other women...it might be a taste thing.

But I am just not one of those women who will grin and bear bad sex for a lifetime...

I can enjoy my friend in other ways, without being in a romantic (and sexual) relationship with him.

"Once you start the physical part of a relationship, you almost automatically become very attached and if the person is not worthy or capable of a relationship with the real you, a serious and long-lasting heart-break is going to be the result and we all know how devastating that is!"

Oh, that's how it works for some people but not everyone. I've been having a meaningless sexual relationship with the same guy for six months now. He's sweet, cute, fun, I adore him...I'm not in love with him. He's not in love with me. We don't have enough in common (and there's an age difference) for a serious relationship. I'll probably end it myself when I meet the next guy I want to take seriously. We'll part on good terms and heck, maybe even hook up again later if neither of us has anything better going on.

And thank goodness for him...he has been a blessing! And don't even tell me that our kisses aren't amazingly passionate. I can assure you, they are...they are...

:-)

Well, it's possible for *me* to gauge it without having sex :-) And I agree with you, good sex is pretty much up to the guy to provide. I mean, a lot of guys can have a good experience with a wet washcloth, so there you have it . . . on a strictly physical-thrill level, it's more important for the woman to have a good partner.

But I'm spoiled . . . every woman I've ever broken up with has called me up later to ask if we could just have sex, and forget about the relationship. *winking, but also serious*

Whoa - I have to take exception to the statement that "good sex is up to the guy to provide." First of all - who needs that kind of pressure? And secondly, so much of a woman's pleasure (or at least mine) is derived from sources beyond just her partner's physical contribution. I could be with the best lover in the world, but if I'm not in the right frame of mind, then the sex will not be good. Good sex is subjective and therefore, by definition, in the eye of the beholder. As it were.

Renie -- I was being a little ironic, but from just a flatline standpoint . . . I actually do think that there are more men out there who are uneducated about women's sexuality and sexual responses than women who are uneducated about men, partly because men are less complicated on a strictly physical level. Of course there is lots lots lots lots more to good sex than just technique . . . and perhaps it might be suggested that part of a woman's responsibility is to help accustom her lover to her particular quirks and preferences; a man may be a very good lover, but used to someone else who responded differently.

It's been my personal belief that it's my job to be educated, to be sensitive, to listen, to pay attention, and to abandon my own agenda as much as possible for the sake of the experience at large. I know a number of men to whom I have voiced this opinion who look at me like I'm nuts. So I can see Steph's point, though I agree with you entirely that there's far more to sex -- or should be -- than the merely physical.

"No, I believe it would be easy to awaken someone." Well, good luck with that. I've tried with a few guys who could have used improvement (nicely) trying to tell them what would make it better for me, but they weren't interested or didn't get it.

I also find that some guys...well...literally fit me better. It's not about having the biggest you-know-what...just that some guys seem to fit better and because of their particular hardware design, the sex is better.

Beyond that, I doubt there is anyway to fix a bad kisser. If the guy has a slobbery, slimy kiss and darts his tongue back and forth too quickly like a lizard...I honestly think there is no helping him.

Melinda -- I wasn't intending to suggest, in any sense, that what is right for me is right for everyone . . . although I will say that two and a half years is a very short period in the life of a relationship, as you yourself have acknowledged. You may be one of the lucky ones for whom chemistry was a reliable indicator of compatibility.

To me, from my viewpoint and with my beliefs about what sexual intimacy is and should be, simple chemistry is the most delusional force on earth; I see people continually mistake it for love, and I see it making people very very very stupid. (I'm not suggesting that you are one of these people -- I mean just in general.)

I view sexual intimacy as an essential energy exchange. Therefore I am very careful about whom I give that to, and, more importantly, from whom I receive it. There are plenty of people to whom I feel a simple chemical attraction -- or even a powerful one -- whose souls I would not care to have enter my realm of being.

Sigh. I'm starting to think I'm more than a little weird. Not that this is news, exactly.

Steph -- you crack me up (I'm laughing with you, not at you). It is very sad that there are men who view kissing as invasion rather than luxurious exploration.

I must jump in here... I used to think of sex as purely recreational and had a "fuck buddy" every now and then. Now that I've experienced true love I just can';t fathom it. But then again, I haven't been out on the scene for a while and know what I'm capable of. I have an insatiable appetite and it scares me....utter lack of discipline and when it comes to chemistry, I go with my instict and act upon it which has led me into serious trouble cause I let my head/heart get in the way. Ah, fuck it!

IMHO the best love making is a mutually active endeavor. As David stated, "We were both fully present for it"
Congratulations on picking a fascinating topic as well as a great topic for a debate.
You are also revealing a lot about yourself and encouraging others to do so as well.
I view your philosophy to be romantically old fashioned. I think you might even lure a few available women into your life with your most recent comment on this page!

Jan, that's the last thing he wants as he has his heart caged in barbed wire!

.............but I love him anyway

Here here, Amanda. I have only had true sexual chemistry with one person in my life, and that relationship brought with it some of my highest highs and lowest lows. And oh, trouble...delicious trouble...

I meant the comment about ex-girlfriends not wanting to be ex-lovers.

Nothing like a little well-placed advertising, eh? ;-)

"I view sexual intimacy as an essential energy exchange. Therefore I am very careful about whom I give that to, and, more importantly, from whom I receive it. There are plenty of people to whom I feel a simple chemical attraction -- or even a powerful one -- whose souls I would not care to have enter my realm of being."

You're not weird for saying that. I'm much weirder than you, I can assure you. Hehehe.

Can you believe that spirit directed me to go out with my current "meaningless" sexual relationship? That's the truth of it. A little voice in my head told me to finish up my workout ahead of time, and when I did that, I bumped into my lover on the stairs at the gym and we introduced ourselves to each other for the first time.

Just because something isn't true love does't mean it is lacking in spirit or not meant to be. I know this man was supposed to enter my life for whatever the purpose.

One reason to put off sex is that some men feel sex, once accomplished is permanent. As if to say you did it once, so you can't say no again. A friend of mine recently got a booty call from a former lover who had come back to her town for a visit and was so persistent she had to change her phone number! His attitude was, hey, we did it before, what's the big deal? Yeecccchhhhh.

A very very enlightening discussion.

I'm just waiting for the first moron to show up and make an immature remark.

Yeah, I've been waiting for that, too. You will notice that you are the first man to comment, other than myself. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Huh. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it. Ah, who cares. I love being one of the only guys in the middle of a discussion about sex. Of course, I have nothing to offer, having been in a monogamous relationship for over 15 years...

Eric...I'm listening!

Oooooh I'm totally with you on this. :)

I used to do the casual sex thing, and it was, (considering hindsight is 20/20) unsatisfying emotionally. And what you have in the end is basically nothing.

3 months till the first kiss might seem like forever, but then again, it might probably be worth the wait.

Yikes, this is juicy stuff. Thank you kindly, Mr. Rochester, for the dedication and the link...and for the opportunity to spend some time thinking about sex. Glad it took me a while to get here so I could read all these great comments.

From looking for intimacy through sex (in my 20's) to beginning to wake up a bit as to the difference (my 30's) to having a few body buddies in between holding out for the "right" guy (my 40's)...it's been quite a journey. Because I feel like I have essentially done a 180.

I would have to say that now, my approach in dating a potential partner would for the most part agree with David's outlook. In the past I was willing to risk a strictly physical fling with a black curly-haired Greek God or two. Sometimes it was a thrill, and sometimes it sucked. And it never satisfied me in any lasting way on more than a sensory level. I value myself more now. Like David, I care about what energy I invite in to mingle with mine.

I am divided on the "try it before you buy it" chemistry issue. Having been a massage therapist for 19 years, I am exceptionally picky about touch. Either ya got it or ya don't. I would like to believe that I could take a man who I got along famously with and train him to be my perfect lover (willingness assumed), but the basic sensuality of touch has to be there to start with.

I am quicker to trust and openly share, but waiting for the physical is so...delicious. And it only happens once. Think about that...if you spend the rest of your life with that person, you will only go through that juicy anticipation once.

The best first kiss I ever had was actually from a body buddy. I propositioned him for a sexual relationship after a couple of very casual dates. He was quite appealing to me physically, but had nothing to offer me as a potential life partner. So I described my boundaries clearly and they fit well with his (most men, unlike David, have a hard time refusing the offer of an exclusively sexual relationship). So the first night we met to...recreate, he walked in and kissed me. This is going to sound weird, but it was like kissing myself, our touch was so similar. Woo Hoo!

Thank you, Wendy . . . I agree completely that the pleasure of anticipation is underrated. And as you say, there's only one first time . . . so make it good! :-)

I fail to see how anyone could argue with that David, where were you when I met all the jokers that I did.

oh man, I'm staying well away from this one, except to say I like the way you think, David. Now post a real picture of yourself, so all these ladies can have something concrete for their fantasies!

I thought reading this article and the comments would give me some insight into making better choices in my relationships. But I am just more confused.

I haven't quite figured out dating in today's world. Nowadays, a relationship is almost 180 degrees from what I grew up believing it would be. Sometimes I just want to give up entirely and embrace the 'growing old alone' scenario.

Steph B- You're examples are very disheartening.

Wendy S body buddies Never heard that one. I like it.

I like that particular euphemism, too.

Personally, I have entirely resigned myself to growing old alone because I am a totally neurotic weirdo. It's just better that I not inflict myself upon the unsuspecting female population. It's very easy to have high prinicples when one doesn't intend to ever come within a hundred miles of a woman ever again as long as one lives.

*longingly* Are there really people who are OK with that? Because I just so totally cannot even abide the idea of someone sharing my space. Oh, you give me hope, you airborne spidery wonder-creature.

I so agree with Liz. All the rules are off, that is what makes relationships so much more difficult now as compared to times past. Rather than following a rigidly proscribed set of relationship rules that at least leave us all in the same boat; knowing what to expect...we have to make up our own rules. I know one couple who are married and live in separate houses. I know two couples who live in separate bedrooms. And in all these cases (I am personally familiar with), it is not because the relationship is falling apart or celibate or exceptionally dysfunctional...it's what works for them.

I may be married and an ex-ex ho-bag, (5 yrs of monogamy and 1 yr of marriage), but I think that if I met you my pants would just magically fall off.

However, I notice something...it is the therapist in me:

You like to eat slowly and you like to take intimacy slowly.

What is that all about Mr. R???

Are you interested only in perfection?

Wendy and Liz -- I agree completely that relationships shouldn't go by rules. The tough part is finding someone else who wants to not go by the same rules. I think part of the issue is my age . . . most women who are near my age are still pretty caught up in what's "normal", or in "nesting" and so when I come out with something startling such as "You know, I really don't like to sleep in the same bed with anyone -- it's nothing personal; I just prefer to sleep alone," they don't know what to do with it. I'll probably be happy in about another fifteen years.

Eliza --

1) Thanks!

2) I don't think I'm looking for perfection . . . I think it's more that I don't like to rush through good things. I tend to think that if something is good, it's worth lingering over. Which is not to say that I haven't had a meal on the run or five-minute sex now and again, but in both cases, I didn't much care for it. I don't know how to say this without sounding really pathetic . . . but the good things in my life have often been short-lived, and so it is important to me to make lasting memories. It's hard to have a lasting memory of something fleeting.

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