Gay Marriage, legal or not?

Laura-

Come on. We ALL DO have the same rights. You have the right to marry any man that you want, I have the right to marry any woman that I want. There are no laws against "love..." no-one is stopping John from loving Steve, or Mary from loving Tina. But come on, you must understand that marriage is an entirely different matter. I'm not allowed, for example, to marry you and the other woman I love. Or my sister. Or those 333 HOT beavers I want for my wives. Or are you now going to say that I am being descriminated against, too!!! Get it?

mark-john K

no..i'm not saying you are...but you said it yourself, you are free to marry the woman you want to, and i'm free to marry the man I want to..i'm just saying that gay and lesbian couples deserve to be able to do the same....I knew a gay couple that were together for over 20 years..one of them died, and even though the surviving partner had power-of-attorney, the deceased man's family took him to court and got everything..that doesn't happen in a traditional marriage...everyone should be able to marry..and no I don't "get it" marriage should be between two people who love each other..regardles of what sex they are.

There are so many things that deserve more attention than whether loving couples have exceeded their quotas of penises or vaginas. I prefer a one to one ratio, and also rocky road ice cream. You may like something else. What's the problem?
Now let's get our legislators off their butts and get them working, dems and reps, on finding solutions for world poverty. We can end it, if we stop being so stupid about it!

Laura-
You overlooked my argument. I'm no freer to marry a man as any gay. And I can't marry those 333 beavers I told you about. And I love them all.

Hal-

The problem is that I haven't seen you in church giving to the poor. Don't blame the rest of us for the starving of the world. How old are you? It is a relevant question, since anyone over the age of 15 knows that this great country gives more in aid than anyone could ever HOPE to.

I'm sure you'll have some pithy anti-Christian comment. Why don't you send it to Laura.

Mark-John K

Well, Laura and I have talked about this issue numerous times and we can 'agree to disagree'. I believe our government SHOULD stay out of our bedrooms. I believe we have the right to do what we want, love who we want and marry who we want. But, with making any 'pithy anti-Christian' comments, I'll say that to me, for me, from me, and in my opinion only, I do not believe homosexuals should marry nor being given 'special privileges' that fly in the face of decent, hetrosexuals. But, again . . . MY OPINION ONLY . . . and I am a reasonable man. I can see BOTH sides of this issue. I have a brother in law who is gay and lives with his partner. My cousin was gay, and had his time of it as well. I know lesbian women who look at this issue and say, "Stay the hell out of our bedroooms." I know gay men who are not lining up to protest against Christians because they know they have a right to say what they want. They're not activists for gay rights, because some of the gay men and women I know think that all these issues are hurting their own cause. Some of the people I know won't 'come out' because of, as they put it, 'crap we have to put up with.'

One 'excuse' is, the Bible says God created 'Adam' and 'Eve', NOT 'Adam' and 'Steve'. I believe that people can love one another, wholeheartedly. I believe that if 'partners' want to live together, they better get use to the ridicule and the pain of lose. One thing that has to be said here is we are all LACKING in ACCEPTANCE. I accept my brother in law. I accepted my cousin. I accept those that I know who are gay. They know where I stand on this, and other, issues and they don't push it on me or try to convince me to think their way.

I'm also a minister and would NOT marry a gay couple. As I told Laura, if they want a 'civil union', which I believe should be recognized, then they should be together that way, and leave it up to the individual businesses to decide if they want, or can, cover their 'partner'. I would NOT perform a marriage in a church or elsewhere because I believe that it's a slap in Gods face. I will not disrespect 'his house' like that. I do not condone the gay lifestyle and I believe that if I were to perform a 'marriage' ceremony, I would be condoning their lifestyle. I believe it's wrong. But, AGAIN . . . MY OPINION ONLY.

Other than that, I agree . . . love is love. Who you love is who you love. NO ONE can take that away from you, no matter what.

I said, 'But, with making any 'pithy anti-Christian' comments, . . .'
I meant to say, "WITHOUT making anti-Christian comments, . . . "

Forgive me . . . stupid grammar errors. What do you expect, it's almost 3 in the morning here. LOL

I"m actually 36 years old Mark, though i'll be 37 in a couple of weeks...and you may not have seen me in your church, but i'm an ordained minister.....so you're way off base there..

and yes Wayne, you and I have discussed this in legnth, but you've always respected that I have a differing opinion, and you've never bashed me (like others...wonder who?) and I appreciate that...everyone is entitled to an opinion...I began this article with the words "I BELIEVE"not everyone should believe...

Well, now here I am on the opposite side of the table... I am in Canada where gay marriage is legal... And so, I have been legally married to my wife... We were not married in a church.... We were married in our home with our closest friends... and it couldn't have been any nicer...

Why didn't we get married in a church?? Well, first off... there aren't many choices in this area for churches... Secondly, we aren't religious (as in going to church every sunday religious)... We teach our children about god and Jesus... and pray with our kids... I read bible stories to the baby... But the idea behind our being married is that God loves us and accepts us for who we are... He always will...

As far as gays being married... I feel that it is essential... That it is important for them to have the same securities as hetero couples... whether it be within a church, a home, a field, wherever the couple sees fit...

On the other hand, I don't think it is anyone's right to force a priest or other clergyperson to perform the ceremony... I think it is important for both parties to be in agreement...

Should gay marriage be legal?? ABSOLUTELY!!

On another side of it... If you have beliefs that it isn't god's way... then stay out of it... and let him deal with the rest of everything in his way... ~L

btw- Laura- great article!! lots of thoughts and opinions behind this!!

thanks Laura!! great name btw LOL...thank you for sharing your story....I"m so glad you were able to marry your partner...and You're right, not all clergy will perform the ceremonies....If it is ever legal in the US I DEFINITELY will!! I also think marrying at home is REALLY romantic..

I wanted to thank everyone for their comments...even the ones who didn't agree with my opinion on it..it's ok to not agree..as long as we all realize that we are all entitled to our own opinons....

I agree Laura. We should all have the right to make choices for the person we choose to be with for life without having to jump the legal paperwork issues. Gays/Lesbians should have the right to make equal choices for their children without having to also go through the same hoops. I don't have to for my children or my partner why should anyone else?

well said Karen!! thank you for saying it!!

Mark-John, if that's your name and not a list of three Gospels- You haven't been to my church, it seems, or you would have seen me. Perhaps you missed the point about judging others in your study.

I'm 56, by the way, and as far as the budget is concerned, who is the child here? We spend 100 times more money trying to kill those people who envy us than we do in trying to relieve the poverty which causes this. I call that gross selfishness and misplaced priorities. We have the means today to end world hunger.

I'm one of those Christians who pays more attention to what Jesus said than I do to those so-called Christians who parse the Bible seeking justification for hate and intolerance. We Christians should relieve suffering, not inflict it.

There's no reason to villify everyone around you. There can be no solution when everything is a confrontation.

Thanks for the support Laura!

I agree Laura. It's typical of "good christians" to try and force their beliefs on others.... claiming that homosexuality goes against god. It seems to me that a god would not care if someone is gay, but whether they are decent people or not.

you're welcome scott!!

Shannon, you are so right!! I grew up in a very conservative church...I still consider myself a christian, but i'm a christian who believes that God loves all of us, and wants all of us to be happy...I believe he wants us all to find love....

people should be free to love who they want...and far as the "loving animals" goes, give me a break..it's not at all the same and you all know it..that's just a lame attempt at trying to prove you're right..and it proves nothing..animals can't say they want to marry you, so it's not the same thing...and yes, it a man wants more than one wife, he should be able to, even though it's impossible to have a true intimate relationship that way...

Interesting discussion. Thanks for starting this, Laura C.

My opinion on 'animals' and denying marriage because of religious doctrine and all . . . .
Here it is . . .

For one, trying to prove you're right by using lame 'excuses' like we should be able to marry animals is absolutely LUDICROUS! So, I won't justify your view with a response.
For another, polygomy is AGAINST the law. It shouldn't be done, in any manner. Period. Besides, you're right, Laura C., ' . . . it's impossible to have a true intimate relationship that way...'
And . . . furthermore . . . in my opinion . . . I believe that when two people love one another there is a 'line that shouldn't be crossed'. So, someone said that we should be able to marry 'those close to us', or closer. I have no idea why someone would say that, but, that's also LUDICROUS. I love my cousins, and my nieces, and a lot of people. Would I marry them? No. Because it's a love that is truly from my heart, but the actions I take to show them my love for them requires me NOT to cross that line. If, in general, you think that we need to 'cross that line', then, in my unprofessional medical opinion, you need serious help.

For anyone to deny someone else the happiness of true marriage is wrong. To me, in my opinion, marriage should be between a man and a woman. On the other hand, if you want to live with your 'partner', go for it. Also, some states say you can register as 'domestic partners'. If that's the case, then you can file that and with with your girlfriend/boyfriend/significan other. I believe businesses should decide for themselve whether they want to issue insurance for the 'partners'.

Two very important things:
ONE: Government should stay out of our bedrooms and churches.
TWO: Let God judge the godless and immoral and let man judge man.

Through it all, and fortunately for some, there will be a 'middle ground' that we will all be on at some point. When that will be, I have no idea. But, until then, let's just be at peace knowing that we all care for one another and about how we all feel and that we all have opinions that we either agree or disagree with.

Enjoy Life.

I haven't seen you in church giving to the poor

Did I miss something here? Is it now a requirement that you first get a church's approval before helping someone...? I'm an ahtiest and I'll pit my helpfulosity against your whole church any ol' day. Get off your high horse. If your god does exist, I think you are one of the 'christians' who is going to be very shocked come judgement day...

Great article, Laura. I'm with ya.. an even bigger crime is this though.. not only are gay couples NOt allowed to adopt in some states, but run the risk of losing their natural born children should their sexuality become known to the local authorities... Unreal, that.

Just to throw in my 2 cents...

I believe gay marriage should be legalized. Actually, I think the current definition for "marriage" should just remove references to gender --- instead of making a "new" law to allow gays to marry.

Furthermore, I also believe that polygamy should be legal -- IF THE CURRENT SPOUSE(S) CONSENT. Granted, I'd never go for it myself -- but it carries the same weight as the gay marriage issue. It's a simple matter of what people choose to do with their personal lives -- and many polyamorous relationships survive quite well.

Regardless of what people say about the "sanctity of marriage," the real tradition is economic. We don't have dowries or bride prices today but they were around for a looong time. The idea was to consolidate stuff--"keep it in the family."

The economic components today are things like inheritance, sharing medical insurance, social security...

A significant number of heterosexual couples are childless by choice so the reproduction argument has a few little flaws.

Seems to me the controversy is over whether or not people get to legislate their prejudices. We're facing real threats like terrorism, potential economic collapse, racial and ethnic conflict, nuclear weapons.....Controlling who can marry whom just doesn't seem very important.

The good thing about the gay marriage issue for a lot of people--mostly the ones who are against it--is that it's something simple where you can express your opinion neatly and completely in a bumper sticker length phrase. It's a lot easier than trying to deal with the problems mentioned above.

Excellent points Nippy Katz.

thank you for the replies everyone!! i'm actually pretty happy to see that the majority of you agree that gay marriage should be legal..and those of you who don't, it's ok..it's your opinion...I just those who don't agree would have better arguments about it...I may not agree with wayne's views, but I appreciate the fact that he states his differing view without being insulting, rude, judgemental, or using lame arguments...

Excellent points Nippy Katz

No doubt. I think Nippy hit the nail on its proverbial head.

Jack: If someone is crayz enough to want more then one spouse and the other spouse agrees go for it as far as I care. Animals do not need to be discussed that is crossing all boarders here of anything in the norm.
Nippy wonderful points you made. Some of the most thought out ones I have read on this topic.
Lori: As an ex of a gay man and him being the father of 3 of my children I would not want him to lose his rights to being a parent because of who he is. There are a ton of people who should not have parents because they are poor abusive parents. The thought of someone losing their kids because they are homosexual makes me down right ill, I know far to many wonderful parents of all sexual orentations. In fact sexual orientation should have nothing to do with having/raising/adopting a child!

Lori: As an ex of a gay man and him being the father of 3 of my children I would not want him to lose his rights to being a parent because of who he is. There are a ton of people who should not have parents because they are poor abusive parents. The thought of someone losing their kids because they are homosexual makes me down right ill, I know far to many wonderful parents of all sexual orentations. In fact sexual orientation should have nothing to do with having/raising/adopting a child!

Agreed. I know of a couple in Oklahoma who have been facing this crap there... it just boggles my mind the backwoods thinking that still goes on today.

I've seen many try to claim that granting Gays the right to get married sends us down a slippery slope of having to approve of multiple partner marriages...this is simply not true. We could easily pass a law that recognizes the marriage of any two consenting adults regardless of their sexual orientation or biological equipment. There is no reason whatsoever not to allow gay marriages, and it is criminal that the radical religious right wing of the Republican Party continues to insist on second class human rights for Gay couples.

I don't know that gay marriages should be legalized, but at the same time, I don't thing the government needs to micromanage our lives. My opinions on homosexuality and how right or wrong it is are mine; I don't necessarily agree it is a natural/genetic thing, but I am not going to force my opinion down everyone else's throat. The are people and still deserve some rights for their loving union, but I do not think it should be called a marriage necessarily, and I really do shudder to think about them adopting a child; the union could not natrually produce progeny, so it should not be allowed to "unnaturally" procure one.

But, there is a larger picture here, too.. as others have discussed the possibilities of polygamous unions and whether they should be allowed.. and also, as I brought up the adoption issue.. there is a lot of grey in the black and white of this world.. and the main point is we all need to pay attention to that bigger picture.

Although the United States was originally founded on basic christian principles and the freedom to worship in a christian environment without interference from the government, and this foundation has set the tone for most of our laws, there are still other belief systems which are now coming out and fighting for their rights..

but I digress... back to you regularly scheduled stuff ;)

Perhaps the sanest way to resolve this debate is to remove the word "marriage" entirely. After all, that seems to be the main objection. Marriage is defined in many different ways depending on which dictionary you consult, but usually it involves something about the union between a man and a woman. That is all good and fine when talking in a religious context, but aren't we supposed to be a country that seperates church and state? So give a legal possibility for any two consenting adults to enter into a union that allows them the same legal rights that all "married" couples are entitled to in the eyes of the law. And, quite honestly, not only gay couples would benefit from this. There are a number of elderly people I know who are not in a sexual relationship, but share a household and have done so for many years. What if they could formalize that as some kind of domestic union that entitles them to insurance, tax breaks, inheritance rights, etc. The law would recognize all couples who entered into these unions, yet it would be up to the churches to choose whether or not to sanctify the relationship. That way, the churches that cry out "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" would not be forced to act in a way that felt inappropriate to them, but the multitude of churches (or synagogues or whatever venue a person chooses to worship in) would have the ability to validate and celebrate a committed and loving relationship.

Gay Marriage-Yes

Poly Marriage- Yes

Close Kin Marriage-Yes, with stipulations to protect genetically damaged children

Animal Marriages-No

What do the first three have in common that the fourth does not? CONSENT and ADULT.

You can toss me out of your church for any reason you like. It's your church, run it your way. But this governement purports to be OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people. So what, the first three examples aren't about people? How is that?

If you need to call it civil union to make yourselves feel better, then by all means, do it. But do it. Gay partners have suffered discrimination far too long.

and I really do shudder to think about them adopting a child; the union could not natrually produce progeny, so it should not be allowed to "unnaturally" procure one.

I just cannot believe you just said that shit.

I agree Lori!! so many children now don't have the life and love they need to thrive...if someone is willing to give that to them they should be able to, regardless of what gender they love.

Well... I thought this was a thread to share opinions, without getting called names or being cussed at..

Since I was wrong about that... Frack you too.

it is Hugh...

I think we all should let cooler heads prevail, and continue discussing this in an adult manner....let's not call each other names ok? we are all entitled to our own opinions..we're not always going to agree, and that's ok..we just should try to agree to disagree on this..

Unfortunately, Laura.. agreeing to disagree is not possible on this subject. Doing so involves real consequences in real people's lives. This is not a theoretical discussion, it is about a major issue in the US right now.

People need to stand up and spout off. Strongly.

I can agree with that..i'm just hoping we don't have to insult one another in the process...I want us all to feel comfortable sharing our thoughts and opinions here.

Weel webwriter narrowed it all down for me... The top three for sure as long as it's consenting adults... (and I worry about the kids in Polygamous cults that are encouraged to be married and in sexual relationships by 14)...

Someone asked a question abive... i can't find the block but "What is are the benefits of a legally recognized marriage as opposed to just living together or having your own ceremony?" You named one... insurance... But there are many more... Inheritance... If my wife dies, not only is our mortgage paid in full- but the house comes to me... instead of being sold by her estate to pay bills... trivial to some but important to us... Last Name uniformity- our family has the same last name... I don't really know how to title it... but if something happens and Cecile gets sick, I can be at her bedside... I don't need to worry about losing everything... Then don't forget the tax breaks and other money benefits involved... (medical insurance, ss, etc.)

I am so happy to have the right to be married... I am so grateful to be in a country that accepts me and my family... My beliefs... I hope America starts to treat it's citizens like people too... ~L

Excatly, Laura G.

I hope and pray that one day they'll be able to marry here in the US, and since i'm legally able to, i'd be HAPPY to perform the ceremonies!!

she doesn't have to tell you anything TJ...she was giving her opinion. She'll allowed to do that.

Laura, I do think Gays should have the right to marry..either in church or in a civil union. I think life is so short, and we should all be able to have love in our lives in whatever way we choose.

and also, I can't believe the turn that this thread took. It's to bad that the majority of you took a topic that started off with great promise and used it to bash people who didn't agree with you! I don't agree with them either but come on, they are allowed to voice an opinion!

thanks for this posting.
i am one of the 16,000 same sex couples who will remain legally married in the great state of California.we are american citizens who demand full equality for all americans not just the strait ones.

you're so right M.C! I agree with this post as deeply and strongly as I did when I first posted it. The fact that Prop 8 passed in CA breaks my heart. You do deserve equality, and I hope you one day have it. Your marriage is JUST as real as any man-woman one! You 100% deserve the same rights as everyone else to marry! I keep hoping they put it on the ballot here in MI.