Some Actual Facts (!) About ACORN plus the Obama Connection

Isn't the term "honest politician" just an oxymoron? --Joe

interesting info .... thanks for the link ...

Interesting. Of course it doesn't give much credence to the Republican camp.

very interesting and thanks for sharing

Don't you wish that, for once, we could get the straight story from a pol?

Once again they are making mountains out of mole hills. Corruption is not new. White -collar crime is not new. Inciting crowds is not new - Palin and McCain are the epitomy of that. Lying politicians is not new. ACORN is a reputable group attempting to make change at a grass roots level. Will they have difficulty hiring reputable people at $8 an hour? Does this country have difficulty "hiring" reputable politicians at any price? Corruption also filters DOWN.

Thanks Bill. I already knew most of the info and always get upset when I hear such outrages words as they are perpetrating voter fraud. The fruad comes in when someone tries to vote who is not properly registered.

Well when a 'child' of 9 gets registered to vote as a democrat, and somehow a voter application turns up through ACORN to register to vote, it does appear that there is some attempt at voter fraud here. It may not be the case in every situation, what about the person in a Seniors home that wanted to vote for McCain, and was slotted to vote for Obama, and I'm sure there are going to be stories coming from teh other way

I will be so glad when this election is over......................
Mooch

If you combed through the nation's voter registration applications carefully, especially if they are being collected by paid contract workers, you will find examples of this kind of thing, Mari. But "Mickey Mouse" and your dog won't ever actually cast a vote, which is the point when FactCheck differentiates between actual voter fraud and faking registration forms. This kind of thing came up often in DC when I lived there, and I'm sure it happens all over the place. But it is relatively rare and since it doesn't translate into votes, it isn't going to tip an election one way or another. Voter disenfranchisement, however, does translate into lost votes, as we saw in Florida in 2000. We paid a heavy price for that one.

Bill, very interesting story!

The problem I find with all this, there is a long history with Acorn and voter fraud! Yes I said voter fraud, after the last election there were FBI investigations with four States, one was dealing with over 2000 votes that came into question of fraud dealing with Acorn. Now I haven't been able to find the outcome of these investigations and I have check into it very closely, the last time I checked the investigation was still going on and no information was being released. The sad part of all that was the four states in question were where the Democrat's picked up seats in both houses.

Acorn, Florida, Diebold,
Iraq, WMD.
There are liars and corruption on both sides.
To this point however, aside from a casual aquaintance with a "washed up domestic terrorist" no one has found a "Keating 5" or lies about WMD or Voting to authorize an illegal, immoral war in the closet of Barack Obama.
Mr. McSame cannot say that can he?
Didn't think so.

Hanging chads weren't the problem in Florida, really. The problem was that well before the election the SecState asked First Data to give her the names and social security numbers of all convicted felons, including those with similar names and numbers. When told that this would produce a slew of false positives, she told them that she would deal with that. Well, she did, and the result was that thousands were denied the right to vote. One of them, the Democratic election official for one of the districts, was told she was an ex felon. She protested and had to go to the state police and get fingerprinted and was told they would look into her case. I don't think she ever did get to vote. That was the problem. And our media never reported it: it took a BBC investigative team. A phony name on a registration form is bad, but it doesn't translate into voter fraud. Read the FactCheck story.

Phillip, check the FactCheck story: I don't think the FBI investigations resulted in any charges being filed against them. I also don't think that if you organize a nationwide registration drive with contract people that you can avoid some slackers and bad apples padding their accounts. ACORN works with the underprivileged; those basically ignored by those in power. If they vote at all, they probably vote for Democrats. That makes ACORN a natural target.

Ayers, Linda? Yes, he was a student terrorist when Obama was 8 and living in Indonesia. Yes, Ayers is unrepentent, but no longer a terrorist. He was voted "Citizen of the Year" for his good works when he, Obama, and a gaggle of prominent Republicans sat on a board together. Sorry, but that dog don't hunt, as they say in NRA country. As for McCain, no, his behavior was called an unethical abuse of his office, not a crime. But no one is saying that he still behaves that way.

People are going to believe what they believe and even facts are not going to change some people's minds, or what little mind they do have.

They can be given the truth and even then not believe it because they were given false information to begin with and that is gospel to them from that point on wards. Of course there are those who will believe anything if it is negative against the opposition in an election.

I gave up trying to convince die hard extremists of facts to negate their false convictions as they do not want facts they want no "N" as president. Yep some are racists and will never admit that they are no matter what. I have seen it my whole life living in a state where racism was open when I was a kid. If a man's color was darker then he was guilty before any facts could be ascertained. It did not matter if he wasn't even near the crime, he was guilty just because of the color of his skin.

Of course I can hear it now "No, I'm not prejudiced!" I've heard it all over this country but then when they think they are with someone who believes as do they it comes out in their words that are not spoken in public. The wording is such as to let you know their true feelings about someone who is not like them. They don't use the "N" word but from the tone it is still the same old racist slant. It still hides behind those doors.

The same with Obama is a Muslim. Are you so afraid of someone who is of a different religion as that? I heard Colin Powell speak yesterday of a photo of a mother with her head on a grave stone of her fallen son who died in the war we are now in. The stone had the soldiers metals on it, when and where he died and on the top not a cross nor a star of David but a Star and Crescent for the soldier who died was of the Muslim faith. He was an American not some foreigner, he was fourteen when 9/11 happened and joined his countries military to fight against terrorism when he was old enough and died at 20 fighting for us.

Why can't you all think about it we are all Americans, the Jews, the Muslims, the Christians and what ever religion you believe in and worship. Why divide us with hate and words of division? Why can't we unite and find reason to back a man just like Colin Powell has stated his reasoning to be and not try to assassinate the other man's character? I see some of your wording and feel the hate some have for a man who you have not even tried to learn who he is nor given him a chance just because you believe the hate filled lies given out and half truths. The ads meant to divide us not unite us are the worst things I have seen come out of the Republicans in my life time living in this country.

I voted for who I believe to be the right man and his running mate for our country. From what I have written above you can figure out who I voted for. I voted with Colin Powell for Obama and Biden because I feel they are who this country needs at this time in our history. You can disagree with me all you want. Just don't try to divide us any further with words meant to do just that.

The rest of the world is watching us. We are supposed to be the bastion of democracy, we are supposed to be the ones who fight for humanity and the rights of humans to live free. Sure there are those who would divide us and they live among us. We do not need Bin Laden to do it to us we are doing it to ourselves. This is the most divisive election I have ever witnessed and it comes from a man who says Country First.

I'm just an old man who lives alone so what do I know?

:O\

Bill thank you for your article. I'm afraid it will not change those who believe what they believe as I have seen the same old rhetoric spouted from the same ones over and over without even thinking.

:O\

Go, James!!!!!!!!!!!!! I, for one, think you know a whole lot! Much more than many others posting here. Prejudice and discrimination are the bane of this country. And will be for a long, long time.

This is good information. It's unbiased, but the proven dishonesty and tactics have made ACORN suspect. The many always suffer for the sins of the few.

It's pretty sad when you can't get straight talk out of a guy who claims to be the straight talk express. And even after factcheck.com has debunked most of their rhetoric on several topics, they still spin and spin. Do they not understand what "knowledge will increase" means? Well, it means their own false doctrines just won't fly anymore because the internet will debunk it!

ACORN's areputation was excellent in most circles until McCain's mouth fouled it. Who does he know, what strings did he pulll to get a leak on an FBI investigation? How sleazy!

I knew what ACORN was long before this election, and I knew about Obama's truck with them, mostly as a trainer. It's a shame that a few dishonest workers have caused so much trouble for Obama, but it isn't anything like McCain/Palin wish it was.

a tempest in a teacup! ACORN is the one who has been de-frauded, not anything to do with the election really!

Great article!!!

The thing is, these McCain supporters do not really believe their own spin. They are just the spinners. It's a game to them. Nothing more. They are not even serious when they do it. They are rumor mongers. Not a good thing, just like war mongers.

Their words are fraudulent, which makes them frauds. Plain and as simple as that.

Don't bother to try to convince them of what the truth is.

They know what it is, and they don't care. They do not deal in the truth.

Of course I can hear it now "No, I'm not prejudiced!"

That statement is usually followed by "I have black friends!"

James, thanks for your contri...that was spot on (sorry to say!).No matter what people tell the pollsters, when it comes time to put their X in the box, some won't be able to vote for someone "different." That, of course, is the campaign strategy Rick Davis is following. He said early on that this election "is not about issues;" it's about the "composite view" of the candidates. And what follows from that is a vicious campaign that has relied heavily on lies and distortions and character assassination repeated ad nauseum even when debunked. Ironic, isn't it, that this was the same nasty tactic used by Bush to discredit McCain in 2000. I don't know why they do it: I guess they think it works, and if it worked against a white guy, think what it would do to Obama. Disgusting.

Regarding Acorn ... I need more than one article to form an honest opinion.

The fact remains, however, that both sides have genuine concerns with tactics used by the opposition.

Democrats are concerned that republicans will intimidate potential voters by posting law enforcement officials or challenging their validity. If the person voting truly is a U.S. citizen and truly is a registered voter who is voting only once, I fail to see why they'd be intimidated.

Republicans are concerned with non-existent registered voters. This include those posing as a dead person who still happens to be on the books as a registered voter. In 2000, the Democrat party was accused of busing people in as the polls should have been closing, falselely using the names of registered voters who never showed up.

Maybe I'm more sympathetic to the Republicans' concerns because I'm a republican.

Bottom line is that voting fraudulently and suppressing legitimate votes are both wrong and both bring the legitimacy of any election into question.

ty for sharing this non issue

To turn bogus voter registration forms into voter fraud, Dan, requires a well-organized conspiracy so that bodies posing as those fraudulent registered voters (assuming the phoney names aren't caught earlier) can actually turn up and vote. There isn't any evidence of such a thing. Voter fraud is actually harder to pull off than voter disenfranchisement, which can be accomplished in a number of ways that have plausible deniability (see my note on the Florida problem, above). It can even be accomplished by ensuring that older and fewer voting machines are sent off to heavily populated poorer (presumably Democrat-heavy) election districts, forcing people to stand for hours waiting to vote. We've seen that in Florida and Ohio, and probably elsewhere as well. Real voter fraud is not the principle problem. It happens, but it is hard to make it pay off. Disenfranchisement can and has done the job.

Bill, you could be right, but you're not. One person voting illegally is fraud. Polls remain open until the last person votes. In the 2000 election, the mess in Florida took attention away from the Missouri election, where thousands of "last minute" voters bused in. Can anybody prove that these were fraudulent? Not any easier than proving that intimidation or planned confusion was going on in Florida.

Don't be so naive. If an employee or contractor commits a crime in the name of company -- even ACORN -- then the company is liable.

Yes, of course, the polls will stay open; the hope, IF this kind of chicanery is in play, is that people will get discouraged or won't for other reasons be able to spend hours waiting to vote...and will just go back to work or wherever. And again, yes, ACORN must, and does, take responsibility for the actions of its contract workers. The point was that it had no part in initiating or condoning this kind of bad behavior. I do disagree, though, that just because voters were bussed in to their election districts to vote at the last minute it indicates probable voter fraud. We will go to Pennsylvania to help drive voters to the polls up to the last minute (or at least, that's our plan). But they aren't shady characters just because they need help getting to the polls. I'm not saying there is no voter fraud; I'm saying that it takes a widespread, concerted effort to make it pay off. Chicago, my home town, managed to do that a few decades ago, but it isn't easy.

Bill, Acorn is the only way the dems have gained any power in Washington to date by stealing the elections and the FBI like now have been investigating Acorn for years and the outcome of the elections they have stolen have never been overturned yet!

If you really think that someone (Acorn) is paying people to turn in the same names over and over again with no understanding of what they were getting, I have a great land deal just for you!

Philip, Dan and anyone else who has bought into the ACORN narrative put out by the McCain campaign, check out this post:

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977485106&nav=Namespace

by Cheri Cabot. It will give you more facts about what is going on. It's the mountain this ACORN molehill is designed to hide.

Bill ... just answer two questions.

1. Is alleged voter suppression less or more fraudulent than alleged voting under false identity?

2. What was the distribution of bogus ACORN registrations. In other words, how many registered Democrat; how many Republican; how many Green; how many Libertarian, etc.?

Both are fraudulent, and both undermine the democratic process. But actual voter fraud is not widespread, whereas there is mounting evidence that voter suppression has been gaining ground. Look for some real problems with this election, as we experienced in the last two.

ACORN works with the disadvantaged for the most part. I would expect that the vast majority of registrations are Democrat. But do remember, if a worker puts down the starting lineup of the Cowboys, or Disney characters or just bogus names, the chances are pretty good that they will never go through the registration process. And they certainly won't be around to cast votes. So while it's wrong, its impact is negligible when compared to election officials and other state officials throwing out valid registrations and erecting barriers to voters. There's no comparison, it seems to me.

Do check out that link. It's an eye-opener.

How can you say that actual voter fraud is not widespread, Bill. Have your or anybody validated everybody that shows up to vote or votes by absentee?

Names of Disney Characters and some celebrities are easy to filter out and dispose of, but the fact that they're in there brings into question the potentially thousands of fake registrations with names like "Paul Klein", and "Patricia Ross".

The difference between your position and mine is that you refuse to admit that voting under false identify is as much a problem as suppression -- you know -- the kind of suppression that excluded thousands of absentee ballots by soldiers from the 2000 election in Florida -- probably enough to make the "hanging chads" a non-issue.

Wherever there's someone with an agenda, there's someone else with an agenda.


ACORN ought to be shut down - - there are thousands of fradulent voter registrations with ACORN all over it. Today JUST for fun I went to vote early. Then I went to another site to vote early. I'm a real registered voter, not a fake one. I could have voted twice if I wanted to.

People scream and decry a NATIONAL ID with their retina scan or finger print and picture on it - but that's what any kind of security has come down to now. It's time for a national ID that serves as our voter ID and each voter presenting an ID should have to put their THUMB DOWN and verify their print before they vote. Call me an extreme, but that's the ONLY way it can be done right.

I have always thought a national ID would be a good idea. We have a kind of ersatz id now, but it obviously isn't adequate.

Dan, as I have said, I consider both a problem, whether Democrats or Republicans do it. The problems with absentee ballots from the military is a perfect example of voter disenfranchisement. I consider it a worse "sin" because voter suppression is carried out by state officials abusing their power to undermine the process. And I don't think that only Republicans are guilty of it. The point is that these practices should be condemnd; however, the ACORN scandal has been enormously distorted because it is always part and parcel of GOP political campaigns, starting in 2000. Have you visited Cheri's post on this problem? You should, although it is depressing.

Bill,

The facts are that in the last election Acorn turned in one to two thousand votes in question in four states and the FBI investigation is not yet closed on any of them to date! I would say that leaves more questions about the Acorn group than not. Now with all that said the group Acorn is also in direct violation of the terms of their own charter as being so called non-partisan when it comes to receiving public funds to operate!

Bill Speaking of UNDERMINING the process: My husband a military pilot and the ADO of his base - requested his absentee ballot a month ago in Iraq. IT STILL isn't in, his and a couple of hundred of his pals. Meanwhile, the dems say voter fraud isn't a problem and the absentee ballots are corrupt and the ONLY REAL PROBLEM is that the REPUBLICANS are complaining and making an ISSUE out of it? We should ALL be making an ISSUE OUT OF IT.

Anna,


Here, here!

The problem with the Left they want to count all the vote until there may be some opposing votes! With all the FL junk the big media forgot to tell us about how the military vote was thrown out, I think out of fear Bush may have had enough votes that they wouldn't be ably to contest the election!

Actually, Philip, you are being confused by campaign ads. ACORN has never been charged with voter fraud (except in said ads). As FactCheck points out, the issue is fraudulent voter registration forms turned in by contract workers trying to squeeze extra money from that organization. That doesn't turn into actual votes absent someone showing up and trying to vote using one of those names (assuming the fake ones aren't flagged and removed beforehand). That takes a conspiracy, and no one in authority -- like the FBI -- has ever accused ACORN or anyone else of that despite the political pressure Bush brought to bear on the Justice Department to produce something. It doesn't make these things acceptable, but it is a far cry from the nonsense being spewed out by the Rovians on McCain's campaign staff.

Anna, who is supposed to be sending your husband and his colleagues absentee ballots? What states are they voting in?

The media did indeed cover the challenges to the absentee ballots brought by Democrats in that incredibly corrupt election in Florida. Our media, as I've said, failed completely to uncover and report on the massive disenfranchisement campaign carried out by state officials -- it took the BBC to cover it. We've got mini versions of that strategy being carried out here and there in this election as well. Check it out.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977485106&nav=Namespace

This conversation is exactly what the McCain campaign is hoping will happen: distort the truth (never mind that it will be caught out) and have people focus on the lesser issue rather than the issues that matter the most. Fortunately, the many fact checking organizations plus the bloggers on the internet have put paid to that strategy. As McCain himself once remarked after Bush's nasty smear campaign against him in North Carolina in 2000 -- ironically by the same people he's hired to smear Obama -- "there's a special place in hell for these people." So there's something I have to agree with him on.

Read the FactCheck article and check its sources, which are listed.

thanks for sharing

As I first suggested two years ago, Barack Obama will become the 44th President of the United States and I am ecstatic. It's time, it's my time, it's our time. Not to delve too deep philosophically here, but heed my words: "I cannot carry the world on my shoulders, but on my shoulders, it is my world that must carry me."


Ricky’s Teaser Tees & Things - Inspirations


For the naysayers and those still stuck on the stump, I guarantee that in time, in due time, you will understand what's best for humans, individually and collectively.

And no, it's not Socialism that bequeaths such a wealth of progress; it is humanism, in which I am a proponent - a mainstay from the "High Renaissance."

See Ficino (Marsilio Ficino)

Another thought of mine: "There are many tragedies in this world but the greatest tragedy is the one that is born from ignorance."

Why does everyone seem to think that ACORN only helps Democrats to register. How does anyone helping someone register actually know who that person will ultimately vote for. It is very important to vote and no one should assume that ACORN has only helped register voters who will vote Democratic. The entire point is to get people out there to exercise their personal right to vote their own conscience.

Kumbayah, My Lord, Kumbayah ...

Hello Bill Lawrence,

I just wanted to say I am finally going through what is now under 6,400 pieces of gather new mail that is in my inbox on here. So with that in mind I have finally come to a piece of mail that was addressed to me in regards this article submission you have created to share with the gather community. Thank you for taking the time and sharing your piece with us here at gather. :o)