Be On the Watch For "Freedom's Watch"

Oh my. Words Words Words - they really whip us all around with them, don't they?

You got the music in you, Great share.

Let the lights and dazzle begin . . . ! Meantime . . . Faux News has pretty much duplicated their call to war with Iraq in a new call to war with Iran! All the NeoCONs can now get the next call to arms . . . and the advertising blitz can begin . . . Good thing big business knows the Madison Ave. advertising methods to capture the public with well thought out soundbites, huh? Every idiot out there will be beguiled by the bright, shiney new ads!

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It is SICK SICK SICK and I am going PUKE.
But what is even worse is that so many people are falling for it. People on this very site spout the same kind of regurgitated toxic mush that is presented. Sometimes I just feel like it's all hopeless.

It is no more propaganda than all the groups putting out pieces on how we should surrender. They are well within their rights.

I have to disagree with you, Mo. First of all, the relevant term here is "withdrawal," not surrender. The very use of the term surrender is indicative of propaganda. And any campaign that equates 9/11 with Iraq is, by its very nature, deceptive and manipulative, since the 9/11 terrorists had nothing to do with Iraq.

Elizabeth:
It figures. Weren't you expecting something like this? The public will probably fall for it, too -- that will be the unfortunate result.

I'm confused here. Surrender means agreeing that your opponent in a war has won. The two parties sign documents defining the terms of the surrender. Who are we going to sign the surrender document with? What sort of terms are they asking for?

If I were the head of the Terrorist government, in addition to money and other material considerations, I'd want exclusive rights to the Illegal Alien Army so I could have an ample supply of slave labor.

Hey Mod . . . We can't surrender . . . we declared victory long ago! Remember? Didn't the Kommandeer in Chief strut across an Aircraft Carrier's deck with his stuffed cod piece and declare victory? Didn't we acheive our mission and make sure there were no WMD in Iraq? Didn't we "get" Saddam? Didn't we get them to elect a goverment? Didn't we get them to make a Constitution? Didn't we get them to be democratic and free? We won. Didn't we?

Want to know how to lose? Don't support our troops. Just leave them over their to be targets and / or policemen. While we do this . . . here at home the neo-cons can continue to dismantle our Constitution. Good thinking. Surrender? Too late pal . . . we won!

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

This sort of shit makes me sick. I'm likely to kick the TV screen in or throw the radio out the window.

There website has a link to contact them. create a fictious email on aol or some other free service and flood their mailbox with junk emails. This similar to what some of the anti Vietnam war groups did to pro war groups. They would call the 800 numbers of these organizatons and hang up as soon as someone answered. Each completed call cost the owner of the number,which meant they had less to spend on their causes and the people making the calls didn't have to spend their own money.

Ooooh Steve . . . you would have been great working for Rove (with my apologies for noticing) - I like the way you think!

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

Elizabeth sorry I just saw your comment back to me. The fact is terrorists ARE in Iraq now. So there is a connection and if we do "withdraw" they will be left with a new Afghanistan.

Sorry you dont like people who have a different view than you, i though we lived in America where we have free speech, but I guess ideas are too much for your little brain to handle

You are just plain ignorant. I am not submissive because I have views of my own and not just accepting your pure hate. You are a crack-job who cannot even write an cohesive sentence.

put the tin foil hat back on inbred

The stupid slave would be you. You dont want to see anything but your hate

The only weakling is you, mental midget. Just because you cant see that our withdrawl from Iraq would cause big problems in combating terrorism is not my fault. You just want to throw insults because you cannot have a discussion of issues because you cant think. You my friend are just throwing the hate your little crazy friends have taught you to do so you wont be bothered with facts

"Just because you cant see that our withdrawl from Iraq would cause big problems..."

Semantics Mod . . . . you did mean our surrender and not withdrawal, right?

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

that works too, didnt know I would offend someone for having an opinion.

Not for having an opinion (though I should mention . . . yeah you did!). Surrender is a propaganda term as you well know. And the fact is . . . you know the term should be withdrawal . . . but feel politcally motivated to restate it unfairly. When do YOU think . . . if ever . . . the boys can come home?

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

First of all, ' The Decider ' had no buisness invading Iraq.

Second of all, if our troops were immediately withdrawn from Iraq, it could cause a humanatarian nightmare of Biblical porportions. It very well could make the Killing Fields of Cambodia and the Nazi extermination of the Jews look like a walk trough a rose garden.

Thank you ' Mr. Decider ' for creating a mess that there seems to be no solution for.

Another reason I avoid mainstream tv...lol
Boy I love tivo, I fast forward through all that junk

I'd like to hear your answer to Doyle's question, Mo.

I think that we can redeploy troops after we secure the county and bring the groups of Terrorists under control. The surge is working and adding stability. The very people who were fighting us are now fighting the terrorists. I didnt think we should go to Iraq in the first place, but now we are there there is no doubt the Terrorists are there. We must work to defeat them. War is not pretty and is hard. Unfortunatly America has lost a lot of its backbone. In todays society we would have pulled George Washington for losing too many battles and submitted to the British Crown. Surrender may or may not be a propaganda term in this discussion, but we are giving in to the terroritsts there no matter how you term it. A group on the pro side of war should be able to use the term surrender if the other side can say all the things they say about the President.

I have a bigger question for Doyle and Elizabeth. Why is this so wrong when Moveon.org does the same thing for the other side.

I am so glad you brought this up, Elizabeth. Thank you. I just typed a comment about their pro war ads on another thread.

I don't follow moveon.org that closely...I just visited their website and there are about a half dozen stories on there. So you will have to point me toward the specifics of what you consider to be propaganda.

So that we are sure we are working from the same definition, by propaganda I mean "the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist." Source: Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O'Donnell, Propaganda And Persuasion, 4th edition, 2006. I would contrast this with more objective writing which simply presents facts and allows the reader to draw his or her own conclusions.

all political messaging is propoganda by that definition. So I think everyone is using propoganda. I will find some examples for you on moveon.org they throw TV ads up in my area all the time.

I think Doyle gave a perfect example of what changes a message to propaganda in this (thanks, Doyle): "Not for having an opinion (though I should mention . . . yeah you did!). Surrender is a propaganda term as you well know. And the fact is . . . you know the term should be withdrawal . . . but feel politcally motivated to restate it unfairly. When do YOU think . . . if ever . . . the boys can come home?"

How can we surrender when we are the attackers? Don't you just give up or come to your senses in that case?

And didn't Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney all say something about this taking "a couple of weeks or months"?

I agree that there is a difference. The essential differences are: propaganda includes loaded and emotional messages, plays on fears, and includes only selective facts. It also is usually produced in a mass volume.

From Wikipedia, the most common propaganda techniques:

1.1 Repetition
1.2 Accentuating one side of the argument
1.3 Taking names
1.4 Fear or emotional appeal
1.5 Demonization of the enemy
1.6 Vilification of slackers

Sept. 15 March on Washington

Declaration of Peace (same event)

Sandy in any conflict either side can surrender. I personally believe that the term is appropriate because terrorists are there and if we leave we let them win that fits under the term surrender to me. If that bothers you sorry. I will use withdrawl now. But I have watched the videos by this group and they are very good. They take the views of real people who do not want us to give up the fight. Including soldiers who have lost limbs. Sandy you spew propaganda against bush all the time, is that ok. If it is why is this can of advertising not.

Sandy the link you provided contained propagada also. It used the term "prolong" in reference to the war when it should be continue.

Mo, tell me you're not that stupid...

Prolong is just as bad as surrender. I hope that you can see the two are equally effective. Prolong is used to give the impression that we are going to continue something that has no chance. Prolong is to continue, what surrender is to withdraw.

That is true, both are propaganda, and that is fine because they are political messaging

"I think that we can redeploy troops after we secure the county and bring the groups of Terrorists under control. "

Nice to know. In other words . . . later. Always later. In fact . . . we should occupy the country forever if this is a task we are not capable of completing, right? Terrorism cannot be defeated with an army. As long as one fanatic lives who is willing to die for a cause . . . it will continue. Can I assume you have arrived at a minimum suicide bomber or IED explosion level that you find acceptable?

You're being vague and only if people agree with you that this is even winnable, there is no end to the death and destruction from your 'plan'.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

I cant put victory on a schedule we did not ask George Washington to tell us exactly when he would win the war we wouldnt even be here

For MDP, a few questions:

Why is it hurting the troops to call the "surge" an "escalation?"

Why is it disloyal to call the occupation of Iraq "war without end?"

Why does it aid the insurgents to say we are in the middle of their civil war?

How do we know when we have "won?"

So then I was accurate in my statement. If we cannot, in fact, end terrorism in Iraq, which is the task you are suggesting need be accomplished prior to our withdrawal then we will need to remain there forever? I assume Civil War or continued violence between Sunnis and Shias would be akin to terrorism for you?

You see . . . you are confusing the semantics and that's exactly what is being done more and more to defend the BA and this illegal occupation and to "prolong" our involvement there.. This is not a "War" it is an occupation. There is a significant difference. We are occupying what even the GOP is calling a soveriegn nation and we are not at war with them. The term insurgency connotes a struggle against an established government which is why the BA has taken to calling the enemy "insurgents" . . . it validates their assertion that there is, indeed a valid government. Accuracy, however, should be the goal. Few people believe that the current government, devoid of Sunni participation, actually represents Iraq. the term really should have been left at resistance which connotes resistance from invaders and occupiers. Frankly, with the internecine violence is indicative of Civil War . . . mixed with resistance . . . a "perfect storm" of violence . . .

Support the troops by doing something more than buying a yellow magnetic ribbon (made in China) to slap on your SUVs! Bring them home . . . it's truly the only way to show them the support they have earned.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~