On the First Chapter Contest...

Lori,

I couldn't agree with you more on your article, and yes I did submit. I said this before, but I am very disappointed with the way some of these so called astute colleague's are showing their true colors. Why not give constructive criticism which would be more helpful, instead of the ugly statements and low scoring. If it's not your cup of tea, then dammit don't continue to read or score it. Because just maybe....maybe....you don't know what the hell you're talking about!

If it's not your cup of tea, then dammit don't continue to read or score it. Because just maybe....maybe....you don't know what the hell you're talking about!

Exactly! anyone who leaves a comment basically stating well I hate sci-fi so this sucks is an ignorant twit. I hope the final judges, those affiliated with Borders, will see through some of the sniping.

Lynn.. I am reading as many as I have time to get to, which unfortunately is not as many as I would like to get too... not enough hours in the day. But I have to say that there is some really great talent out there.

My other hope is that several writers get picked up even if they do not win the contest. There is some seriously good stuff being put up here.

Geoffry... email the contest admin. I found out he is leveling the playing field. He will check exactly who rated your article and what they rated it... and then look what what else they rated and how much. Some jerks have already been tossed off the competition for downrating other submissions...

You KNOW there's sabotage going on when NONE of the submissions get above a six! Gather really needs to institute a "name with rating" system.

I know, right? It is insanity.

I too am reading the submissions and do not have one of my own in the contest. I also have seen some really great first chapters that I do hope are picked up for publishing when this entire thing is over. There have been several entries that are not in my favored genre that I am really glad I read because they are fantastic stories. I would purchase many of these books and I am really enjoy reading them as I have time. While I hate seeing truely negative comments where they are not warranted, I believe that the rating of the submissions is being carefully inspected and dealt with behind the scenes.

It's the same problem we see everywhere else on Gather. The majority of people here rate according to how much they like or don't like the author. When one person's Good Morning article and someone else's thoughtless game make the "highest rated" list while some of the best writing on the site is hit with ones, and total crap makes the Editors Pick spot on the main page, it is obvious that neither this community or its owners know or care about writing. So what made them think this same community could be trusted to do anything different with a contest? Suddenly, everyone would become honest?

I so agree with you, Lori. It's why I never submit anything of value anymore. I'm giving this a 10 because I like you.

Thanks Lori for taking a stand. I've recently pulled just about everything from the site and am posting it elsewhere. There has been a great deal of excellent content posted by talented "gatherites", but this probably isn't the forum for quality work,--unless someone who knows something about writing is actually reading content. Some reassurance from administrators might be helpful, but thus far, the contest is a farce. One redeeming characteristic remains: I have received constructive criticism from writers who I have come to respect based upon the quality of their work.

I have a first chapter from my novella that will be posted here in a day or so. I have been careful not to judge any of the chapters I have read over the past few weeks because of the ethical/moral dilemma of passing judgement on another writer's work that has been entered in the competition.

It is truly sad to think that so many other would-be writers don't share that most basic consideration. I think it's called common decency.

I thought I had until March to join in on the contest fun.

An ugly comment will only show how chickensh*t and stupid the person commenting is, but when you get a mob mentality that results in several of these type comments, well; it can't be good for the site as a whole.

Further, I believe it would be totally uconscionable to call yourself a writer if you are stooping to using these tactics.

That's my .02¢

I have an entry as well (Wolf's Meal).

I do feel it's unethical to vote. However, I have commented on submissions where they truly moved me--all in the spirit of friendly give and take. I stick to praise, and in some cases, what I feel are constructive suggestions. At one point, I found a "dark horse" in the pack. I thought it was wonderful and said so. It subsequently rose above me in the ratings. But I'm fine with that. I'm glad to see good writing rise to the top.

Yay! I had wondered where to go about these seemingly fraudulent votes. I've been keeping track of my votes to see what people think and determined (because I'm a Math Genius in addition to being a writer -- hoity toity!) that those people who have left comments all voted with a 7 or 8, and those who have not left anything have saddled me with ones, which has really served as a kick in the teeth. Jacob Garbe posted an article about a week ago regarding Gather administrators tossing some votes that didn't seem to jive with others, but unless they will be doing so AFTER a story has finished its run, I just don't see that happening yet. I know it's my responsibility to go to an administrator and complain, but my latent (and probably misplaced) belief that Humanity Will Do What's Right stops me. That and I don't want to feel like the tattletale who boo hoos to the teacher. Hopefully those who are running the contest are paying close attention to the complaints as well.

*hope!*

In fairness, one could probably write a complaint about the numerous entries (and there are quite a few) that are simply miserable, but are followed by glowing complements of praise. For example, one voter is running around giving people 10s just because they entered the contest, using the same comment everywhere.

Wrt the ratings math, I noted a couple stories whose vote count went down over the span of 5 days. One entry's rating went up (with fewer votes) and the other entry's rating went down (with fewer votes). In the latter case, the math showed that the entries that had been removed were all 10s. So while you can make a strong case that there are many "1" votes that should be disqualified, due to "friends of a submitter voting against the competition w/o reading the material", you could also make the opposite case that there are many "10" votes that should be disqualified, due to "friends of a submitter voting for the submitter w/o reading the material". The administrator appears to be chucking 10s along with 1s, probably based on voting patterns.

Wrt my "mean" comment that many of the entries are miserable, I'm referring to lack of story, lack of attention to grammar or writing mechanics, and lack of any attempt to grab the reader's attention quickly. Professional first readers take home armfuls of manuscripts, with no hope of getting through them all. You've got maybe 5 pages to give them a reason not to toss your baby aside.

For each submitter, what they're submitting is (hopefully) the best they can do at this point. If they're receiving less than favorable comments, perhaps they can take away from those comments the ones that will help them get better, and ignore the 'mean' ones. This applies not only to the ones gravitating toward the bottom of the pile, but also to the ones rising to the top.

Regardless of the possible voting irregularities, and assuming lots of votes, the best entries will rise to the top, because the majority of the community will be voting fairly.

I agree, Lori. There's no need for pettiness.

My first chapter was published yesterday and soundly trashed by the first reader to visit the webpage . He had nothing constructive to say whatsoever. It was an uncompromising malicious rant that ran and on and on and on and .... Quite unsettling! Also, my first chapter appears to have disapeared into cyberspace oblivion after less that 24 hours. Evaporated into thin air. I had a sum total of 2 comments and six votes. My novella runs 41,000 words and, like many of you out there, I slaved over it - a literary labor of love - for months on end.

By the way, I clicked on the picture (i.e. hyperlink) of the vitriolic commentator and ended up at another gather.com web page that featured other first chapter reviews by the same angry fellow where he trashed everyone with unstinting thoroughness. The sheer quantity of bile and hatefulness in his remarks was appalling.

I can't imagine participating in much of anything else on this website after such an atrocious experience.

great comments!

Barry...

Yeah, there are a few of those out there. Luckily, they really are outnumbered. I have my own issues with Gather, but over-all there are many reasons to stay.

Since I do so adore trashing idiots, please do gimme a link...

I hope so. It was good.

I find the rating system on Gather ridiculous. It is a popularity contest, and is ineffective. Until administration makes people accountable for rating articles (name with rating), this system will continue.

Agreed

STRAIGHT UP RIGHT ON!

Barry
One of the vitriolic commentators has, apparently, been removed from the process. After complaints about the sheer meaness and cruelty of his remarks (these complaints were emailed directly to the administrator, who asked for links) his comments vanished from many of the stories he'd trashed.

So you may feel at ease: You're description of the guy who trashed your chapter is, I'm sure without doubt, this same guy, and he's been jettisoned from the contest for his hateful behavior.

It sure is nice when someone offers constructive, helpful criticism without personal slant or hurtful words. I can't see how slashing a story helps the author improve their writing skills.

I guess I am naive, but I was thinking that Gather HAS some kind of record as to what rating each person gave on (say) chapter X, as when you pull that chapter back up (after voting for it, if you want to check to see if there are any more good comments and if the rating is better, and so forth), you will see the stars light up and your rating is still there. So this is being stored either in a cookie on YOUR computer or in a file on THEIR computer. In other words--they know that I voted 10 on so-and-so and 8 on such-and-such. This is how they could "check up" on voting problems. **BUT** that would be so time-consuming, detail-oriented, and just plain AWFUL for the staff who would have to do it . . . that I doubt it's going to happen. I suppose software could do it, but then you have the danger of bugs and side effects, and no human double-check.

I also don't know how in the world the staff can read even the first few paragraphs of each entry and make a comparison in order to pick the five that they pick on merit alone, because (again) it is SO time-consuming. At literary agencies, they have first readers who will give a submission maybe a page, maybe a page and a half, and then will pronounce a verdict. (Stuff it into the SASE with standard rejection, set aside for reading later on the train home, give it a personalized rejection, etc.) This may be what they're talking about doing, but man, that is going to be a chore. Why didn't they set an upper limit for the number of entries?

I can't agree with Rand that the voting is actually all that fair. For one thing, people will say in my comments that my stuff is professionally written and yadda yadda, and perhaps they'll then say they hate the genre, and then they'll say they rated it high (a 10 or a 9 or 8). And then my rating stays at 6, just like the chapters out there that have really cutting comments. The "worst" thing they've said is that my chapter is really long (I combined the first three chapters of the actual manuscript to make one long chapter, thinking that I'd do better to have more text out there, but that may not have been wise--I still have the original chapter divisions in my original manuscript, though) . . .and they don't like seeing that many cultural references (chick lit does this a lot, and I could rethink that, I suppose.) So . . . really, I wonder how I got down to a 6. There must have been lots of people who didn't comment and who rated it low. And I would have liked to see what their objections were. I've benefited from the comments I've gotten so far.

Here's a link to my entry, LITTLE RITUALS, BTW, if I've been sufficiently cryptic that you want to read these fabled comments. http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976893843

Yeah... one of my gripes has been the combining of chapters. It is just too hard on my eyes to read that much at the computer and stay focused. I read quite a lot, but I have to have the book in my hand and be relaxed on the coush or in bed to do it.

For reading online, it just really cannot be 3 chapters worth or ya lose me right quick.

I love it when I can move other writers to hatred. It is a sign I am on the right track. I hope the writers who are being attacked see it that way also.

More like they were afraid of the stiff competition. There are some excellent submissions to that contest that were getting raked over the coals for no good reason.

Exactly. I hope those good writers wear the attacks as a badge of honor. They must be very talented if they can make other writers worried, afraid or jealous.

Gotcha... and agree.

Lori, thanks for standing up to be counted. I had an entry that folks sort of liked but apparently I have more to learn about writing. Some were kind...others were heartless. My pride suffered greatly, but I'm taking the criticism and deciding for myself if I have to meet the "literary schematic" (sp) or if I can be my own person. I ain't got no schoolin but I'm a darn good story teller. Or so I've been told...has everybody been lying to me!!!?!?!?

Thanks,
Bren

Brenda.. I have said it once, I will say it a hunnert mer times...

The only rule to writing is to entertain the audience and keep them hooked. Everything else is just people trying to make themselves feel important.

Is your story still live? Send me a link and I'll read it from a buyer's perspective, not an editors. I am honest though...

Hello Lori,
Thanks for starting this thread. I've enjoyed it very much, along with the sentiments expressed by the others, and here's why...

It's proof-positive that there are writers and readers out there who are genuinely interested in helping their fellow writers achieve their full potential. (Sorry for the cliche, but it seemed appropriate here.)

Reviewers seem to fall into two general camps:
(1) Those who offer encouragement, critiques and suggestions in a way that would encourage the writer to keep writing, and:
(2) Those whose comments might encourage the writer to give up the craft completely.

I'm firmly in the first camp, and I've been saddened to see truly offensive remarks disguised as "brutal honesty." Honesty is good, but it doesn't have to be brutal.

As far as my story (Illegal Fortunes), I've gotten some excellent suggestions, delivered with kindness and professionalism. Those are the kinds of comments I take seriously. As for the others, well, I'm just not sure what to think... One reviewer called my story "only slightly bearable." Of course, after seeing what he said about other stories, I realize I fared better than most. I believe he called another writer's story "an abortion."

If you want to see these two camps battle it out, you might want to check out this thread:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976903623

I'll go check that out right now, Sherrie. Thanks.