White supremacist gangs target cops, steal IDs and credit info

Leti, "In the past three years, its ranks have doubled to at least 400, but authorities suspect there could be hundreds of other members operating under the radar. They said heavy recruiting is taking place throughout California and Arizona, and members have been picked up by police in Nevada and Idaho.

Hell, thats not a gang.Thats more like a company picnic. Mara Salvatrucha (MS13) now thats a gang. There's one hunderd thousand gang members world wide, with nine thousand being in L.A.. Now thats a gang.

Leti, If your going to try to compare bad to bad, at least try to come up with some legitimate comparable numbers.

Bob, you've got stats on the Aryan Nation, too?

That's why I posted this. Look at the last sentence under my link. Comparable? Are you totally denying what these guys are doing?

So what? white supremacist will obviously want illegal immigration control. That doesn't support the limp wrist's "who cares" policy. If you want to say that those who want border enforcement are racist just say it. Don't hide behind a story that overstates the obvious.

Leti.: This link is to Bob Sullivans report for MSNBC.

http://redtape.msnbc.com/2006/03/hidden_cost_of_.html

I've read up a lot on crime stats and they all pretty much conclude that no particular race commits more crime than another race. It's all proportianate to the population. Thats across the board for murder, rape, assault, burglary, etc.

Here's a link regarding ID theft:

http://www.idtheftcenter.org/factsandstats_1006.pdf

This link is to a GAO report (from 2002):

http://www.consumer.gov/idtheft/pdf/gao-d02830t.pdf

There's more. I'll try to find some and post the links. I'd like to see the results from your report also. Good luck.

Good article, Leti. As you say, it points out that whites are involved in crime, it's not just "people of color." I've had discussions with prejudiced people where they say "I hate to see that family move in, now we'll have to worry about crime going up," when they are speaking of people of color. I've asked these people point blank, "So, you don't think white people are involved in crime?" I always get some kind of rationalization about the fact that they know they are also involved in it, but you don't have to worry as much.

One other thing I really like about this article is that society tends to blame crime on lower-economic-class citizens and tend to trust upper-middle-class and wealthy people. Scott Peterson wasn't a poor boy; Ken Lay, ex-CEO of Enron, wasn't a poor boy; there are many, many middle- and upper-class folks who illegally use cocaine and don't pay their taxes, both of these are crimes. These young men and their wives and girlfriends seem to be upper- and middle-class people. When are we going to realize that it isn't color, economics, or sexual preference that makes us good or bad, but our character? Will it ever happen.

One question your article and the CNN article makes me wonder about is: Why do prisoners have the kind of freedom that they can run a gang from prison?

No one said that American citizens and legal residents don't commit crimes. Of course they do. But they are not committing a crime on a minute by minute basis simply by being in the country.

Jeff H, I have never supported illegal immigration... and I don't hide behind anything. I'm quite frank. I want to strengthen our borders, too.

Re-read my article since you didn't understand the first time.

Jeff, are you still mad about the whole Christianity thing?

Eamon and Jessie, THANK YOU. I will look into those links. For now, I have GOT TO FINISH MY work! good night!

Leti, I've already told you that these guys are called woods, AB's. or polar bears.
Maybe that will help on your quest for knowledge of the racist movement.

Jessie, They not only run the gangs on the inside, but outside the prison as well. And to some extent, they run the entire prison.

Gang membership in prisons is tolerated by the managment and staff. They use it for control. If the white, black and latino gangs are constantly fighting each other, they have no less time and desire to mess with the staff. The last thing a warden want's to see is those 3 groups pull together and direct all their hate and anger at the staff.

Liz is right, crime is crime and ought to be prosecuted. What does crime committed by legal citizens have to do with crime committed by people who are not citizens? Apples and oranges.

Nanci, DO NOT equate an illegal trespasser with someone who goes out and murders a cop in cold blood. Don't you dare. Yes, that illegal trespasser is breaking the law, but it is not the same as taking a life.

Lisa, same for you.

Do you think we should give the same penalty to a person that runs a red light to that of a convicted child murderer?

Scum of scum should all be shipped out of our lovely PLANET.

Leti, Check this guy out:
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Metzger.asp
I got more for you also.

Leti, Check this out:
A kind of "Sisterhood of Hate" to procreate white supremacy has emerged. Since the mid-1980s, women have joined the racist movement in record numbers--from the White Nurses preparing for racial holy war to female skinheads producing videotapes on natural childbirth techniques. This new and dangerous increase accounts for nearly one-third of the membership of some hate groups. The increase in the number of women, coupled with a strategic thrust to reform the public image of hate groups, has expanded women's leadership.
http://www.publiceye.org/eyes/whitsup.html

Here's some more Leti,
"Though it had deep roots in Southern politics and claimed 15,000 members — more than the Ku Klux Klan has boasted for decades — the white-supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) was a mystery to most Americans until 1998. Late that year, a scandal erupted over prominent Southern politicians' ties to the brazenly racist group."
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=802, check out the numbers:
See No Evil
"Read a list of 26 U.S. elected officials whose ties with the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) have been publicized in the CCC's Citizens Informer."

Leti you beat me to the punch. I was about to post an article I wrote concerning a white supremacist gang called the Public Enemy No. 1 and how they target bored teenagers from upper-middle income families. This and other hate groups are involved in identity theft and credit card crimes. The members of these groups use acquaintances that work in the banking industry and the DMV to further and aid their crimes. It seems to me those that paint legal and illegal immigrants as the source of all crimes in America must step back and take in the entire truth.

There is an old saying my grandmother use to quote "The skunk never smells his own tail" of course this is a loose translation. What she meant was that people often overlook their own shortcomings and only focus on those of the people they have a conflict with. Yes all illegal immigrants commit a crime as soon as they cross into our country without proper documentation however the majority go on become an asset to our community and never commit another crime in their life times. For anyone to suggest that the majority if not all of the crime committed in the U.S. is perpetrated by legal and illegal immigrants is much a idiotic statement as for me to say all Anglos are racist. Take for instance the majority of white-collar crime, which costs Americans billions of dollars, is committed by highly educated and privileged White U.S. citizens. The most recent school killings committed by white teenager belonging to upper-middle income families. The majority of serial killers in American again are of European decent. Again I am not saying crimes are not committed by immigrants however there are no facts to support that the percentage or type of crime is higher on one end of spectrum than on the other.. That is an intellectual fact and no twisting or skewing of statistics can change that.

Juan, I see those problems, too! Juan, post your article, too, so I can compare data.

White collar crime is the most prejudiced, discriminatory crime there is...and it's because of 'white' rich guys.

I am looking at all of those links you guys posted. I'll try to focus on stats and numbers from different organizations.

Kathleen, I just keep on truckin'. You know, I'm in college right now and I'm majoring in environmental science/wildlife conservation. Socioeconomics on all levels impact our earth, but after being on gather for a month, I've learned my passions burn towards social injustice. I'm seriously thinking of getting a double major now.

Bob, I'm proud to say that since we've 'met', I feel you and I also have an understanding. At least I hope I'm right? :)

Juan, Start with the president of the United States with white collar crime. He's the one letting all these illegal invaders in this country to begin with. Next in line is our attorney general, the world famous anchor baby Alberto Gonzales. Wait a minute Juan, now i'm a little confused on this one. Would this be a white collar crime? He's not an immigrant. He was born here. His parents were illegals. You wrote, "Take for instance the majority of white-collar crime, which costs Americans billions of dollars, is committed by highly educated and privileged White U.S. citizens." I'm glad that you finally realize that hispanic people are actually in with the white race Juan. Nobody has been saying anything against immigrants, not even one time. With the exception of some of the pro-illegal people. It's the illegal invaders that people have been supplying information on. Take the article that was just posted Eye Opening Facts by Donald H.. Lots of great information thats actually happening in my area, right now. Take a look at it when you get a chance. Oh, and by the way there's only 20 million to 30 million illegal invaders in this country right now compared to 300 million citizens that populate the U.S. Keep that in mind when you're comparing crime for crime/illegals against citizens.

Leti, please do not assign viewpoints to me that I've not stated and then blast me for your own misinterpretation. Your strawman won't stand.

My question remains. What does crime committed by legal citizens have to do with crime committed by people who are not citizens?

Lisa, answer my question first.

Liz, aye, the law...lawyers interpret to fit their client...not saying I don't believe in the law. I do!

Bob M. do you need a definition of "White collar crime" it has nothing to do with the color of the propitiator.

Bob, we've already discussed that Hispanics are considered 'white'. People like us are educated enough to know the history...but try telling that to the racists.

Check out this link to the Aryan nation...first page is BAM. HATRED. Here's an excerpt, with some words like "cabal' that Larry French uses...

"So here you have it kinsmen, kikes, a wetback and niggers (and I do mean niggers) partner up to go hunting for aged White folks whom will be said to have committed heinous crimes against non-whites 30+ years ago! Sounds like a great new plan to spend tax payers money to me! How many racially motivated "Black on White" crimes will be investigated in this witch hunt?

NONE!

Well Nazi's are just plain getting to old to hunt especially with the Zionists boy Simon "The Weasel" Wiesenthal gone. Now the jewish cabal and their non-white buddies need new bogeymen. I can hear them now, "Let's go after some very bad White people. We can send a twofold message to these old crackers and militant White's of today, that we are going to stamp out WHITE RACIAL PRIDE at all cost and teach Whitey hands off non-whites!"

Our country is being flooded by millions of U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' wetback beaner-buddies and instead of having a news conference on how he's going to stop illegal immigration he's discussing with the FBI and several Black and jewish self-interest groups of hunting down and jailing 70-80 year old White men! Do you see something wrong with this picture? If White's continue to allow themselves to be downtrodden they deserve every nail in their coffin at the enemies hand!

GET OFF YOUR KNEES AND FIGHT WHITE MAN!"

I also saw a link where the Aryan Nation tries to dispel Martin L. King's cause. There is some of the same crap I've seen other members say about MLK at this link.. http://www.aryan-nations.org/michael_king/index.htm That particular website is such a joke! Reminds me of those infomercials at night!! LOSE 50 POUNDS IN THREE DAYS!!!!!

BTW, sorry about the long post...

Leti, is this a game or do you wish to discuss this issue? I stated my question a while ago and you came back distorting it to "mean" something you erroneously assumed and never answered it. Now you want me to answer a question born out of that ridiculous exercise? I'm not here to play a game with you, Leti. Save it for someone who will go wherever you wish to lead them in the discussion.

To me, questions within this realm of thinking are moot. If illegals weren't here to begin with, they wouldn't be committing any crime in this country and there would be nothing to compare to the crimes (heinous or not) committed in this country by legal citizens.

Juan," Bob M. do you need a definition of "White collar crime" it has nothing to do with the color of the propitiator."
Exactly what I'm saying. But I could use the definition of a what propitiator is.

Another thing I don't get is if a lot of 'white' people here in America are so hell bent in BEING AMERICAN and they give some Hispanics hell for NOT ASSIMILATING, why do 'white' supremacists keep talking about Nazis, Germany, and Hitler? Why don't THOSE IDIOTS ASSIMILATE to OUR American way of life? Oh, it's because they have paler skin, European descent, and speak English..

Check out this link http://www.aryan-nations.org/reichsfolk/

Lisa, I'm not playing a game. If you don't want to discuss, thanks for stopping by, though. There's the door.

Lisa D and her cohorts remind me a small child who will put his or her hands over their ears and start chanting " I can't hear You I can't hear you" simply to avoid seeing or hearing the truth.

Bob M. commented Mar 5, 2007 "Juan, Start with the president of the United States with white collar crime. He's the one letting all these illegal invaders in this country to begin with. Next in line is our attorney general, the world famous anchor baby Alberto Gonzales."

Bob M remind me when either the President or the Attorney General were arrested and convicted of these White-collar crimes you mentioned. Is this some fact I missed? When and where did these factual crimes occur?

Juan, I'm still checking out this Aryan Nation website...dude, I can't stop laughing. These people actually buy into this crap...here's another excerpt.

"The goal of the establishment of a White Aryan homeland on the North American continent has not and shall not change. We believe that the Aryan folk deserve the right to a sovereign existence and racial self-determination within a territorial area characterized by our own laws, culture and customs. This is in line with the 'Blood and Soil' concept of Third Reich-era National Socialists and follows the logic that for a people to survive (as a distinct racial and cultural group) they must have their own land so that their own ways can be furthered amongst their own folk - to the exclusion of alternate ways of life within that specific geographic territory. "

Read between the lines and it says, "Whites only". They also claim nature 'intended' separations, and if you procreate with a 'non-white' then you're not acting Aryan and you embarrass them. There's a whole bunch of stuff about acting honourably and humbly, but then they post a picture of Adolf Hitler on their website. OMG.

Most of these home grown racist who follow the Hitler philosophy would be some of the first ones Hitler would shove into the ovens as he would consider them unworthy of the Master Race.

What is the truth I refuse to see? Please enlighten me how crimes committed by legal citizens of the United States have anything to do with crimes committed by citizens of Mexico or any other foreign country.

It has no bearing on the issue of illegal immigration. Again, if they weren't here to begin with, as the majority of the citizenry of this country would prefer, there would be no crime committed by them in this country. Your argument disappears with the application of some critical thinking.

You bring it up as though it's relevant and it's equal. It's not. Your "Well, THEY DID IT TOO!" argument is foolish and desperate.

White supremacists are part of the citizenry of this country. That ugly black mark on society is ours to deal with through our judicial system and by other societal rejection means. Unfortunately, it is part of society to have to take the good with the bad. We do not, however, have to "take the good with the bad" of another country's citizenry and that is what you are asking us to do. And you can't further your stance on the whole thing by trying to compare crime committed by either group because one group is ours to deal with and the other is not.

Another thing I don't get is if a lot of 'white' people here in America are so hell bent in BEING AMERICAN and they give some Hispanics hell for NOT ASSIMILATING, why do 'white' supremacists keep talking about Nazis, Germany, and Hitler? Why don't THOSE IDIOTS ASSIMILATE to OUR American way of life? Oh, it's because they have paler skin, European descent, and speak English..

Leti, you constantly bring up that most of the illegals are decent and good people. Yet, that whole thought process goes right out the window when you want to lump all white people into an awful group such as this in order to further your argument. Why is that? Why would you want to use "white supremacists" in your argument when you know quite well that they represent such a small portion of the population of all white people and that the majority of white people are kind and decent people? Isn't this the very thing you fight against? If you have such a problem with this being done towards hispanics, why are you doing it yourself in the other direction?

Hmm, I also see that according to Wikipedia, "Some in the Aryan Nations openly debated a plan to forcibly take five northwestern states - Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Washington and Wyoming - from the United States government in order to establish an Aryan homeland."

WHAT DOES THAT REMIND YOU OF? HISPANIC EXTREMISTS! Does anyone yell at these white supremacists to assimilate or get out?

Lisa, I am saying that some people will equate an illegal immigrant to a murderer even if that illegal is only breaking trespassing laws (or IRS). Even our laws have specific punishments to fit the crime. I've been to a lot of other websites, and there are extremists that claim that illegals are guilty of all the crime, all the scandal... illegals are to blame for the 'falling of our civilization'. I don't buy it.

I've seen the racial slurs against Hispanics...namely from Larry French, but have I seen 'white' people stand up against him?! No. Have you said anything to him about his disrespect for the Mexican culture? Has anyone said anything to him about his hatred because his son was beat up by some kid whose parents were probably illegals? Now he's crazy because of it. No, NOT ONE OF YOU HAVE SAID ANYTHING TO HIM.

SO...I'm tallying up stats and percentages.

Bob said there are approximately 20-30 million illegals compared to 300 million citizens. I haven't looked into those numbers yet, but it's a start. Out of those 20-30 million, I don't know how many are extremists? Do you know how many white supremacists there are? I want to find out, too.

Lisa, you wrote, "Why would you want to use "white supremacists" in your argument when you know quite well that they represent such a small portion of the population of all white people and that the majority of white people are kind and decent people?"

Lisa, if you would have asked me back in high school, I would have said only a MINUTE amount of 'white' people were kind and not racist. Yet, I'm educated, so I know better, and I've met my beloved husband. That's the same thing I'm trying to show you about Hispanics across the board, even illegals. Yes, they are here ILLEGALLY, but that does not mean that they are all of these crazed, puppy-raping, drug-dealing people that others make them out to be.

NOW do you understand how I feel when illegals and some of their crimes gets lumped in with Hispanic heritage? You felt the same way about lumping in whites with white supremacists.

So, Lisa, why do YOU think that these white supremacists aren't being told to assimilate or go back to Germany?

Lisa D. commented Mar 5, 2007 " Leti, you constantly bring up that most of the illegals are decent and good people. Yet, that whole thought process goes right out the window when you want to lump all white people into an awful group such as this in order to further your argument. Why is that? Why would you want to use "white supremacists" in your argument when you know quite well that they represent such a small portion of the population of all white people and that the majority of white people are kind and decent people? Isn't this the very thing you fight against? If you have such a problem with this being done towards hispanics, why are you doing it yourself in the other direction?"

Here you ask us not include all anti-immigration advocates with the low lives of supremacists groups and yet a majority of individuals and groups use the argument of crime against immigrants both legal and illegal.

Lisa and Juan, I gotta go..I'll continue this later...

I know better than to group all Anglos as racist. However when a person does not vent or express his or her opposition to such groups as the KKK than I have a nagging belief in the back of my head that person agrees with their racist views. When someone intentionally makes statements to blame all Hispanics with crimes committed by a minority of illegal immigrants I than have no option but to step up and voice by discontent. When I see any person being inflicted with violence simply because of being an illegal or simply because of the perception of being illegal than if have an ethical duty to voice my concern. That does not make me any less of an American or it does not mean I condone illegal immigration and if you can not tell the difference that only reinforces my opinion of how the race issue will always be the underling factor behind a number of individuals views when it comes to immigration.

"SO...I'm tallying up stats and percentages.

Bob said there are approximately 20-30 million illegals compared to 300 million citizens. I haven't looked into those numbers yet, but it's a start. Out of those 20-30 million, I don't know how many are extremists? Do you know how many white supremacists there are? I want to find out, too."

What does the number of illegals in this country have to do with the total number of citizens? What are you going to garner from that figure? To me, it doesn't matter how many "extremists" there are in the population of illegals. None of them belong here unless they do so in a legal fashion through the immigration processes in place. Comparing the numbers of "worse" illegals to the whole of illegals might be an exercise you wish to complete but it simply doesn't matter.

I don't know how you would even get an accurate number of illegals in this country. Do they line up to be counted? Doubtful. And then how do you count who is extremist and who isn't? And what does it all amount to in statistics? They are citizens of another country.

If there are 30 million illegals here and only 10% of them are extremists, does that make it okay for the remainder of illegals to be here? If another 10% of them are committing additional crimes once they are here (beyond the crime of entering the country) does that make the lesser total okay to be here? I'm not understanding what these "statistics" do for you.

Lisa, I am saying that some people will equate an illegal immigrant to a murderer even if that illegal is only breaking trespassing laws (or IRS). Even our laws have specific punishments to fit the crime. I've been to a lot of other websites, and there are extremists that claim that illegals are guilty of all the crime, all the scandal... illegals are to blame for the 'falling of our civilization'. I don't buy it.

Then why not concentrate your energies on those who are not extreme? Those are the folks in the majority. Let the extremists do as they will.

That's the same thing I'm trying to show you about Hispanics across the board, even illegals. Yes, they are here ILLEGALLY, but that does not mean that they are all of these crazed, puppy-raping, drug-dealing people that others make them out to be.

Leti, do you even read what I write? As soon as you can show me where I have said "all" about anything having to do with illegals (except that they are here illegally-period) you can then set out to "show" me something about it. I don't even talk about people who are here legally when it comes to this discussion and I've called out others making unfair assumptions about them. Save your "educating" for someone else, please. I'm doing fine without it and the only purpose it's serving is to aggravate you over your own misguided assumptions.

Ignorance is bliss !

"Here you ask us not include all anti-immigration advocates with the low lives of supremacists groups and yet a majority of individuals and groups use the argument of crime against immigrants both legal and illegal."

Well, I'd say that talking about importing the criminals of another country is a relevant aspect of this discussion. Comparing this country's criminals to them is a red herring.

Talking about the crime illegals commit by entering this country is pertinent to the discussion. Using a social security number of someone other than yours is a crime. A lot of illegals do this so it's also part of the discussion. Tax evasion is against the law, making it an integral part of the debate. Talking about the crime committed by illegals IS part of the conversation about illegals and has nothing to do with crimes committed in this country by the citizens of this country.

Lisa, They found out the race cards not working for them. Now their really stretching, looking for something. I guess since the skinhead racists are white that means all white people are of the same philosophy that the skinheads/kkk/aryan bros. and who else Juan.

Juan the president lets the crime of illegal border jumping happen 3,000 times a day. The attorney General put two innocent border patrolmen in jail falsely.You don't have to be convicted to show that somebody is having criminal activity going on, or, do you think it's not a crime to jump our borders without credentials?

Lisa D why are you not outrage at the White supremacist gang called the Public Enemy #1 and other hate groups which are involved in identity theft and credit card crimes? The members of these groups use acquaintances that work in the banking industry and the DMV to further and aid their crimes. Just recently members of Public Enemy were involved in high-speed chase in which hundred of runs of ammunition were fired against the police. These groups use their illegal monetary gains to purchase illegal drugs such as methamphetamines to sell and further their agenda. If it is all about people breaking the law than you should have an equal distain for such groups as these as you do for Pancho the dish-washer.

Bob again when were the President and Attorney General convicted of the crimes you stated? So the President personally allows and aids the influx of illegal immigration. Perhaps he drove his S.U.V to Mexico and smuggled a group of illegals under the hood? As for the two border Patrol agents you mention, this two agents lied under oath and tampered with evidence. Whether you agree with shooting being justified or not you can overlook this fact.

Bob let me reiterate the statement I have time after time made "I know better than to group all Anglos as racist. However when a person does not vent or express his or her opposition to such groups as the KKK than I have a nagging belief in the back of my head that person agrees with their racist views. When someone intentionally makes statements to blame all Hispanics with crimes committed by a minority of illegal immigrants I than have no option but to step up and voice by discontent. When I see any person being inflicted with violence simply because of being an illegal or simply because of the perception of being illegal than if have an ethical duty to voice my concern. That does not make me any less of an American or it does not mean I condone illegal immigration and if you can not tell the difference that only reinforces my opinion of how the race issue will always be the underling factor behind a number of individuals views when it comes to immigration."

The law that is in place that has been inacted by congress and the courts of the land take care of all (supposed to take care of all) the criminals in this society. Did you forget what the police/sheriffs/highway patrol/and all the other duly sworn officers of the law do?
I don't think you guys have studied enough to produce any kind of tangible credibility to your argument of (what is you argument about anyway? By the way, it would be alot more believable if you put some numbers with your facts.

So Juan, " These groups use their illegal monetary gains to purchase illegal drugs such as methamphetamines to sell and further their agenda. If it is all about people breaking the law than you should have an equal distain for such groups as these as you do for Pancho the dish-washer. "
Tell me where all of these drugs you're talking about come from. Could it be the porous border that our president doesn't want tp protect?

Juan, "I know better than to group all Anglos as racist. However when a person does not vent or express his or her opposition to such groups as the KKK than I have a nagging belief in the back of my head that person agrees with their racist views. When someone intentionally makes statements to blame all Hispanics with crimes committed by a minority of illegal immigrants I than have no option but to step up and voice by discontent. When I see any person being inflicted with violence simply because of being an illegal or simply because of the perception of being illegal than if have an ethical duty to voice my concern."
Did you ever stop think that the reason people don't stick up for these assholes is because they don't feel the need to stick up for people that commit crimes. Just because sombody is of the same ethnicity, doesn't mean that their your little brothers and that you have to protect them from being wanted to go back to their own countries. This is as plain as day, but for some reason you can't "see"it.

So the majority of illicit drugs are smuggled in through Mexico. What does this have to do with my question "These groups use their illegal monetary gains to purchase illegal drugs such as methamphetamines to sell and further their agenda? If it is all about people breaking the law than you should have an equal distain for such groups as these as you do for Pancho the dish-washer." BY THE WAY METHAMPHETAMINES ARE MANUFACTURED IN THE STATES IN DRUG CHEM LABS .
Again "As for the two border Patrol agents you mention, this two agents lied under oath and tampered with evidence. Whether you agree with shooting being justified or not you can not overlook this fact."

Bob M. commented Mar 5, 2007 " Did you ever stop think that the reason people don't stick up for these assholes is because they don't feel the need to stick up for people that commit crimes. "
If this is true than why do you and your counterparts keep standing up for the two Border Agents who broke the law by lying under oath and tampering with evidence?

Juan, "BY THE WAY METHAMPHETAMINES ARE MANUFACTURED IN THE STATES IN DRUG CHEM LABS." While thats true, a lot of methaphetamines are manufactured in the states. The vast majority is manufactured in Mexico.

I just explained about drug dealing, skinhead shining, brokedick,AB's once. Do I need to keep reassuring you of this.



I guess you don't keep up with the Ramos and Campean border patrolmen, otherwise you would know what a sham the attorney generals office was caught doing.

Lisa D why are you not outrage at the White supremacist gang called the Public Enemy #1 and other hate groups which are involved in identity theft and credit card crimes? The members of these groups use acquaintances that work in the banking industry and the DMV to further and aid their crimes. Just recently members of Public Enemy were involved in high-speed chase in which hundred of runs of ammunition were fired against the police. These groups use their illegal monetary gains to purchase illegal drugs such as methamphetamines to sell and further their agenda. If it is all about people breaking the law than you should have an equal distain for such groups as these as you do for Pancho the dish-washer.

I do have outrage for this. But none that will give you dispensation you are looking for.

How do you know whether my disdain is equal or not? Please don't make assumptions about my feelings on the matter. The fact is, that as a citizen of this country, the hate groups are part of it and we need to deal with them accordingly. I do not, however, have to deal with the dark side of another country's citizenry. How many times do I have to type the same thing? I've said it like 3 times now. These people are not our responsibility- the good or the bad. Comparing the bad people here with the bad people who are illegal doesn't change that, no matter how hard you try or how many times YOU type it.

Look I personally belief the drug dealers got everything they deserved and I just wished they had been caught in the U.S., prosecuted and sentenced, however that does not change the facts of the case. Bob are you denying the stipulated facts of the two agents lying under oath and tampering with evidence by removing, bullet casings and other evidence from the scene where the shooting occurred? Please answer this question and for Pete's sake do not quote any conspiracy mombo jumbo. Just the facts.

Oh, jeez, I just got back...too many points to name.

Lisa, you know, I'm really trying to understand what you're saying...so let's try to name a few points in order and then you answer? Then you do the same and I'll answer back. That way we can find SOME common ground because I feel like we're going in circles in article after article.

1. Do you think illegal immigration is a crime (this is redundant, but just bear with me, 'kay)?

2. Do you think illegal immigration causes ID theft, government ripoffs, and job displacement?

3. Do you think illegal immigrants are of all nationalities and cultures?

4. Do you think Americans of Hispanic heritage are lumped with illegal immigrants for breaking laws?

5. Do you think the topic of Mexican illegal immigrants creates a hornet's nest when people of 'white' color do the same crimes (I am currently devising a report about these stats so bear with me on that, too)?

6. Do you think some of the anger against illegals is racism?

7. Do you think other people on Gather are racist?

8. Do you agree with white supremacy? Do you agree with Hispanic supremacy?

9. If not, why don't you speak out against the likes of Larry French?

10. Do you think illegal immigration is the same class of crime as murder?

11. Do you believe in amnesty?

12. Do you feel empathy (and this does not mean you agree with them)?

13. Did you read any of the links that I posted regarding white supremacists (tell the truth, please)?

Anyone else is welcomed to comment. I'm just trying to figure out why we're all disagreeing when we all want the same thing: stop illegal immigration The only thing I can figure out is that some people do not think it is racially motivated, while others do.

For me to see this as a neutral topic, I have to see where the other person is coming from without any prejudices towards illegals, even if they're breaking the law. By prejudices, I mean anger, violence, disrespect, and 'lumping' all illegals in one bad category.

The whole point of writing this short article was to show that ALL 'RACES' cause crime, namely some of the ones that are blamed to just illegals. As I said, I don't have numbers or stats, but I want to write it by the end of this month (maybe during my Spring Break).

I know that some of you also don't have a racist bone in your body, but PLEASE understand that for some us that have experienced things, it is not so easy to believe the neutrality of the topics when it's ladened with hostility and anger. I'm just speaking for myself.

Lisa, I have read all of this and out of all this conflict, I think YOU are the only one that makes sense.


America has profited from our South of the Border population, whether we want to accept that fact or not. It goes back to the old saying, "a bad apple spoils the bushel". The fact remains that the crimes committed by the illegals and blacks gain publicity while the crimes committed by other nationalities fade into the background. The illegal immigration issue is not a new one, it goes back hundreds of years.


No one complained when the fruit pickers, field workers and other "low paid" jobs were filled by illegals. The big commotion started when the illegals began to take on jobs formerly held by American laborers. Construction, factories and other enterprises found they could hire these "illegals" for a fraction of the wages paid to legal citizens. Why do we point the finger at the Bush Administration? The finger pointing should be directed at all the past Administrations who did nothing to try and halt the influx of people wanting to improve their life.


All the hate that this country seems to be turning towards is tearing us apart. I don't understand the purpose of this article unless it is to promote more controversy. That seems to be the goal and from the comments I have seen, I believe it is accomplishing just that.

Juan, Copy and paste this:
http://bearcreekledger.com/2007/02/12/guard-the-borders-dirty-johnny-sutton/

June the main point of Leti's article is fortify the fact that there are other ethnicities that commit crime in the U.S. Leti uses the White supremacist groups as an example of individuals of so called European and Anglo decent that contribute to a large part of the crimes attributed to immigrants, both illegal and legal as well as Hispanic Americans. It is unjustified when individuals and groups use the immigration issues to mask their racist views and beliefs in order to further their warped and skewed beliefs about immigrants.

Uuuh, Juan...

Mexican Meth Floods U.S.
Shutdown Of U.S. Labs Fails To Stop Spread Of Deadly Drug

"...Drug enforcement agents report the number of meth labs in the U.S. has plummeted."

"This deadly drug is now a growth industry for Mexico's deadly drug cartels. They're replacing small U.S. kitchen labs with Mexican super labs. The cartels are smuggling ephedrine from China, India and Europe and cooking up huge quantities of cheap meth — including an especially potent variety, Mexican Ice. Then the cartels smuggle it north to U.S. users."

"By some estimates, as much at 80 percent of the meth on U.S. streets comes from Mexico. Agents see more of it at the border. Meth seizures are up 106 percent in a year at the border crossing near San Diego."

"Mexican authorities have busted 18 meth labs in the city of Tijuana this year alone. One lab was located next door to a day care center."

Full Story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/19/eveningnews/main1636846.shtml

H.G. I will check this out

Juan, thank you for clarifying the article. Is this supposed to expose these organizations? I have never heard of the CCC before. Perhaps an article that pinpoints these various organizations would be more appropriate than one that seems to be all about illegal immigrants. However, that is only my opinion.


I believe that those crossing the border illegally are committing a crime. However, I can understand that the motivation to feed and care for one's family is worth the risk.


Bank of America has a program that gives illegals a chance to borrow money. Is this right or wrong?


Although I detest ANY racist organization, whether it be the NAACP, ACLU, KKK, Aryan Nation or any other other group that promotes hate, and commits crimes to perpetuate their activities, there does not seem to be an answer to the situation.

June it is these hate groups and their recent recruitment drives of moderate middle class Americans by stirring up their fears of illegal immigrants is at the core of the heated debate over immigrants, both legal and illegal. Hate groups are in the upswing due primarily people finding like minded individuals over the topic of illegal immigration. That is why it hard to separate the topic White Supremacist groups and their agenda from that of immigration.

Juan , this next link is very interesting, it's about congress thinking about filling charges against the prosecution of Campean and Ramos. Copy and paste:
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54142

Juan, "That is why it hard to separate the topic White Supremacist groups and their agenda from that of immigration."

It's not hard to distinguish the two different crimes for us. It's impossible for you and the other pro-illegal people, you're the ones that can't distinguish the difference between the illegal invasion of people stealing their way into this country and white supremists. There is somewhere between 20 to 30 million illegal invaders in this country and maybe 5 or 6 thousand people that belong to white racist organizations. And you can't "see" the difference between the two.
Come on Juan, find something else. This equation of yours is just making you look bad. I know your smarter than that.
How about explaining to me why the poor little kids in Hispanic countries grow up with out any fathers to take care of them. Don't you think they deserve a better chance at growing up then their fathers give them, all the name of "Doing jobs that Americans don't want"?
I know myself that rich or poor, I'd rather grow up being around my father.

Leti...

"...PLEASE understand that for some us that have experienced things, it is not so easy to believe the neutrality of the topics when it's ladened with hostility and anger."

What's more important...worrying about who is a racist or protecting our country? You are not going to change anything with comparing white supremacy to our illegal immigration problem, as one has nothing to do with the other. Even IF everyone on gather was racist, (which they ARE NOT!), does that change the facts about illegal immigration? Would that make everything concerning illegal immigration, that is negatively impacting this country acceptable?

Bob...

Good point! I grew up without my father, and that's why I made sure I was always around for my two sons. Two of the finest individuals you'd ever want to meet!

Bob M. commented Mar 5, 2007 " It's not hard to distinguish the two different crimes for us. It's impossible for you and the other pro-illegal people, you're the ones that can't distinguish the difference between the illegal invasion of people stealing their way into this country and white supremists. "

To begin with, what statement or statements have I made that indicates that I approve, condone or incite illegal immigrants into crossing our borders? Again I will repeat my contention for all those who have a hard time of comprehending the written language. Even thou I speak out against the violence committed against illegal immigrants and those perceived as illegal it does not make pro-illegal, just as those opposed against immigration are not automatically racist. However my belief is that the current resurrection of hate groups is closely linked with current highly debated topic of immigration.

Here we go again.

I'll click out numbers and I'll post that article here.

HG, please answer YES or NO to this question: do you think white supremacists are using illegal immigration as a recruiting tool? Please, just yes or no.

Bob, who around here is pro-illegal?! Why do you keep saying that?

Leti...

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=13855

By the way, this is very off topic, but what the hell is going on with realty?! We're shopping for a new house, and it's crazy. In the last four years, real estate value has double. My friends paid $200,000 for their house, and now it's worth $400,000!!! IN four years!

People will commute 1 hour ONE WAY just to afford that new house where I live.

Are you guys seeing the same problem around your places?

Leti...

One can only assume they are. Still doesn't change the facts about illegal immigration.

Leti, Have you ever been around a real honest to goodness racist? Or where the people that you call racists just hecklers?

Juan, You have to be dizzy with all that spinning that you've been doing.

Leti...

I answered your question but you seem to have skipped over mine.

Juan, when a person tells you something (or writes it) and at the end he says "HOWEVER or BUT", that means forget everything I just told you, this is what I really think.

H.G., I almost forgot to ask you how the dinner went. Did you have a hangover this morning? (Too much fun causes that). And thanks for the comment about being around for you two sons. I'm sure thats why they grew up to be a couple of the finest individuals around.

Is everybody honestly contending or stating that the current resurfacing and resurrection of hate and white supremacist groups are in no way linked to the current anti-immigration mêlée that is swiping the country.

HG, no it doesn't solve the ECONOMIC problem BUT it does ADDRESS the COMMUNICATION ISSUE. Do you understand that? HOw can we solve anything if we can't communicate or if we're suspicious of each other? For one, you're not going to get the extremists to listen to each other because of the race issues.

Two, when I come on here and I can objectively look at your opinion and you can objectively state yours, that's great. Throw in a little bit of disrespectful garbage aka Larry French, and it's all down the drain.

1. Do you think illegal immigration is a crime (this is redundant, but just bear with me, 'kay)?

Yes for the 400th time.

2. Do you think illegal immigration causes ID theft, government ripoffs, and job displacement?

Not in toto but, yes- for the illegals who are committing these crimes.

3. Do you think illegal immigrants are of all nationalities and cultures?

Yes

4. Do you think Americans of Hispanic heritage are lumped with illegal immigrants for breaking laws?

Not by me. Perhaps by a few shortsighted people they are but certainly not in the amounts you view it.

5. Do you think the topic of Mexican illegal immigrants creates a hornet's nest when people of 'white' color do the same crimes (I am currently devising a report about these stats so bear with me on that, too)?

I think the topic of Mexican illegals creates a hornet's nest. And that is where it ends. "When people of 'white' color do the same crime and they are citizens of this country they are OUR PROBLEM. They are the blight of the U.S. and we have to deal with them. When illegals who are in this country commit these crimes they weren't our problem to begin with- they are citizens of another country. They only exacerbate the original crime by committing bigger ones with each step.

Again, what are you going to do with this report? What will it tell you?

6. Do you think some of the anger against illegals is racism?

Yes, but certainly not the amount you and others attribute to it. I would say an amount coming from a very small number of people.

7. Do you think other people on Gather are racist?

I've certainly seen some racist comments but again, not in the large numbers you seem to see.

8. Do you agree with white supremacy? Do you agree with Hispanic supremacy?

If you are asking me this, you haven't read a word I've written.

9. If not, why don't you speak out against the likes of Larry French?

Well, if this is, as written, a connecting question to #8, I don't see Larry French as a white supremacist.

I don't agree with the way that Larry French presents his views. It's just not the way I would go about it. But, you and several others are already jumping on him at every turn so I think there is enough voice against it already. My energy isn't needed and I'd rather spend it on something else.

Surely, you wouldn't want your silence in a matter to be judged as condoning, would you? I'm sure I could accomodate you if that is the case.

10. Do you think illegal immigration is the same class of crime as murder?

Another foolish question. No, I don't and I've never seen anyone else who does either.

Leti, it is YOU who attach that assumption in your own mind and then attribute it to others. They aren't saying it -YOU ARE. You assume a lot of things that people never said or thought and then you don't back down. And then, when they become upset with you about THAT, you again think they are angry about something different.

11. Do you believe in amnesty?

Not in the case of illegals in this country.

12. Do you feel empathy (and this does not mean you agree with them)?

I think I've answered this one about 10 times previously. I have a problem with duplicating my efforts, if you don't mind.

13. Did you read any of the links that I posted regarding white supremacists (tell the truth, please)?

Thank for for assuming that I might not be truthful. THAT is what irks people, Leti. Either you are going to GET that or you are going to continue to piss people off. No, I didn't read the links. There was no need to. I know a lot about white supremacy and as I've stated before it is not germane to this discussion. See #5

For me to see this as a neutral topic, I have to see where the other person is coming from without any prejudices towards illegals, even if they're breaking the law. By prejudices, I mean anger, violence, disrespect, and 'lumping' all illegals in one bad category.

This is a neutral subject for you? LMAO! You don't see where the other person is coming from without prejudices towards illegals! Instead you don't read what people write and instead decide on your own how they think or feel and even how they'll act. Walk your talk.

The whole point of writing this short article was to show that ALL 'RACES' cause crime, namely some of the ones that are blamed to just illegals. As I said, I don't have numbers or stats, but I want to write it by the end of this month (maybe during my Spring Break).

You are writing a report based on a logical fallacy?

I know that some of you also don't have a racist bone in your body, but PLEASE understand that for some us that have experienced things, it is not so easy to believe the neutrality of the topics when it's ladened with hostility and anger. I'm just speaking for myself.

Well, I'd say it's then up to YOU to get over it! What you are doing is walking around prejudging the thoughts and words of others based on your own past negative experiences with a certain group of people and then asking those you are doing it to, to "please understand" when you've offended them with it by assuming they either have or will behave in the same manner.

Isn't that the same thing you don't want coming in your direction? It's YOUR past, Leti and maybe you need to deal with it first before you come into these discussions with that baggage and dump it on others who don't deserve it.

Empathize with someone else using your own statement there, Leti. Some people have "experienced things" that were not too pleasant that had to do with blacks or hispanics or jews, etc. Instead of looking at it and saying those were just bad people, it's caused a shift in their thinking about those groups of people and now whenever they engage with blacks or hispanics or jews, etc., they project all of that onto those people whether those blacks etc, who are before them are doing anything like that or not. THAT is exactly what you are doing! When someone else does it, you scream "RACIST!" When you do it, you say- "please understand"

You want others to stop doing it, I'd suggest you get a mirror and stop doing it yourself. Or at least stop asking us to "understand." I don't and it's not my issue to deal with- it's yours.

Okay, Lisa, I've tried THREE TIMES to communicate with you. THREE TIMES. Nevermind. You're too full of yourself. And I don't prejudge.

And yes, silence is terrible. It means that you let it happen.

9. If not, why don't you speak out against the likes of Larry French?
Lisa D. commented Mar 5, 2007 "Well, if this is, as written, a connecting question to #8, I don't see Larry French as a white supremacist."
Lisa if you don't see Larry(Himmler) French as racist, than what is your definition of Racism?

Oh, yeah, that's right, I go around talking shit about Irish or Germans because I had a run in with one...I go around talking hate and threatening that my people are going to rise up to war because my son got beat up by a kid of Irish descent...and now, Lisa, when I go to war, if you or your family gets hurts, too bad. You can blame the kid of Irish descent you started it. --- Yep, same crap Larry is saying about Americans with Hispanic heritage and you're okay with that.

Juan, this is unbelievable.

Juan, "Is everybody honestly contending or stating that the current resurfacing and resurrection of hate and white supremacist groups are in no way linked to the current anti-immigration mêlée that is swiping the country."
What did you do, just wake-up out of a long sleep? The've had these same racist organizations for centuries. Some journalist thought there might be a "big" story to write about, due to all the illegals in the country. Guess what? The only added criminals in the prisions are*******the invaders. The percentage of AB's are about the same as the've always been. Nice try Juan, keep looking though! I'm sure, sooner or later you might find some kind of racist connection

That's true, Bob..the racist organization was called the U.S. government until 1965.

And like someone said, who's going to fess up to being a racist? Oh, no...not Mr. John smith! He's Christian!

I'll try to get numbers from .gov sites... I'll also work on a thesis...

Bob...

The dinner ws great, but since I don't drink - no hangover!

Lisa you just proved our point. Here you are moderately agreeing and siding with an individual who has time after time stated his obvious racist rhetoric and has made obvious statements that condone violence against all peoples of non European persuasion. I am pretty sure Larry is ecstatic over the fact that he has recruited another soldier into his army of darkness.