Going to Mexico

poorly reasoned sarcasm.
First, undocumented aliens pay twelve billion per year into social security without being able to collect any benefits.
second, don't we want everyone in our country to be free of communicable diseases, including our own children who lack health insurance?
third, isn't it preferable to license all drivers, thus making them responsible and informed ?
Fourth, wouldn't it be simpler to set up employment centers across the border to document workers from other countries, rather than trying to round up twelve million people and ship them out like the Nazis did?
Fifth, think of the future, when Spanish-speaking people will be the majority in the US in about thirty years, how would you like them to legislate your human rights?
In my view, your post is neither funny nor humane, and doesn't represent the wisdom that makes this country viable. This is not merely a place for some, but for all. For example, the current Attorney General's relatives were illegals, the Gov. of California was illegal, the President has relatives that were illegal. In fact, most of the english-speaking people here came in various stages of casual legality from someplace else.
On one side of my family, we emigrated here thirty thousand years ago, on the other side, we came in 1752, from Ireland. There were no papers involved in either case. What makes you so secure that you can scorn and deny others the same sanctuary extended to your family? Isn't that known as hypocrisy? As I recall, Jesus spoke about hypocrites. Read up.

I disagree w/ Martin, I think your points are well made and a little humor and levity goes a long way.

The problem is we need to decrease demand and supply will adjust accordingly. The only way to do this is to go after the employers.

Also, Martin, Schwarzenegger entered this country legaly.

I also disagree with Martin, I came here from Canada via South America. I spoke no English, but no one put up signs for me to read so I could know where I was going or buying. And also a lot of the people are paid under the table and do not pay taxes. I feel that America needs to be for America right now. Follow the news Martin.

Martin,

Your points are ridiculous. As far as illegals paying into Social Security, many of them are doing so under fraudulent means, i.e., using false identity documents. So, we pay them for committing fraud? Just as I guess we should grant amnesty to all. And as far as saying everyone that has come here ahas been "illegal" at some point-ridiculous. My great granparents came to this country during a time when our population was smaller and we welcomed many more immigrants-all who were documented upon arrival. Now, asa result of rising insurance costs, health care, and education, many studies show that, although illegal imigrants do pay some taxes, there is still in the neighborhood of a $10 bilion shortfall, which the LEGAL U.S. taxpayer must compensate. As a result, schools are closed, hospitals shut down, etc. Listen, we know that we can't be inhumane. We know we need immigrants to drive our country. But we simply can't support the amount of illegal mmigration taking place in the U.S. today. We cannot provide services to the world on our taxpayers' nickel. The point of this article, which apparently you completely missed, is that Mexico has extremely stringent immigraiton laws and protects its citizenry from the same economic competition and strain that th eU.S. citizenry faces. In Mexico, try to get a driver's license as a foreigner. Try to open a business. Try to get any type of public service. They will literally laugh in your face. Yet we not only cater to illegal immigrants, we actually allow the Mexican government to, contrary to their own immigration policies, criticize and shape our policies to benefit foreigners. Absolutely ironic. So, Martin, all I can say is do some research. Find out what's really going on before you make such brash, unfounded comments.

William, $10 billion, that's it. I've heard estimates put it closer to $30 billion. But, whatevs, I think both numbers are incredibly telling.

What I don't understand is this word Racism that keeps getting thrown hither and thither without regard for the enormous historical burdens and connotations the word carries. How the hell is it racist for the US to require ILLEGAL citizens--all ILLEGAL citizens--to be held accountable for their status here. Why would it be racist of anyone to put a decal on driver's licenses that would state when Visas expired? Why would it be racist to deport ILLEGALs? Someone, please answer. I don't get it, but everytime immigration is discussed, the people who try to reform it get called racists. Well, I guess I'm a racist--a self-hating one at that. I am a Brazillian who was brought to this country by my parents. We came legally, and I don't think that any Brazillian, Mexican, Irish, British, or other citizen should be allowed to simply bypass the very laws we were required to abide by. Is that racist? I guess so, but if it is, I'm okay with that.

"What makes you so secure that you can scorn and deny others the same sanctuary extended to your family? Isn't that known as hypocrisy?"

No sir, it's not known as hypocrisy, it's known as the INS.

"Also, Martin, Schwarzenegger entered this country legaly."

I think what Martin must have been referring to was the fact that Schwarzy came in hopped up on Steroids. So, his status as an alien may have been legal, but his mental and physical states were not. Just kidding. Actually, I'm reading Martin's statement thinking that he means that Schwarzy came here legally, which is true, but he, technically would have been an illegal imigrant--he was violating the terms of his B-1 visa. (Article on Schwarzy's Visa violations)

Josh,

Great points. And you're right-$10 billion, $30 billion, who's counting? I guess we, as taxpayers, should be counting.

I agree with your statement regarding the "racist" theme as well. What people fail to see is the big picture. We talk about illegal immigraiton and the view almost immediately focuses on the Southern Border and Mexican immigration to the U.S. However, how many people entered the U.S. from any other corner of the globe, either legally or via fraudulent documents, and eithe roverstayed their visa and remained, or simply entered via fraud and remained? I'm sure the numbers are much lower than Mexico, but they are still significant. Also, there are a number of Canadians living and working illegally in the U.S. Would deporting all illegals mean we would ignore Canadians because they are non-Latinos? I think not. Would a white U.K citizen who had entered illegally or fallen out of status not be deported because he/she is caucasian? I think not. Martin simply missed the point of the post. As do many others who do not fully understand the scope of the immigraiton issue. For example, many say, "what's the harm in letting people come her eto work and make a better life for themselves and their families?" How abotu Chinese and other Asian immigrants who pay nearly $10,000 to come to the U.S. illegally, then are extorted and put to work in sweatshops as slaves to "work off their debt". Or Ukranian and Russian women and children who are lured into coming to the U.S. to improve their lives, only to be exploited in the sex trade. Or African children who are sold in to slavery by their parents and shipped to the U.S. as "indentured servants"? I guess we would be being inhumane if we investigated these happening and tried to deny entry to illegals. I mean, come on, alien smugglers aren't out to make a buck. They're humanitarians. They want to help their clients...Right?

Hey Yank, I found this to be funny, I even read it out loud to my mother, and Husband , and they both found it to be funny.
I am not the type of person who is going to go all into detail about illegal immigration, and whats fair, and whats not and where my people came from , and all that jazz. I liked this because it was pleasantly comical, and lightly true.
Thank you for sharing this!

Hello friends who are clearly concerned and well informed about a serious issue that has plagued and will continue to plague this country for a long time I presume.

First I will say this I did chuckle lightly over the post it is funny and picks on all the muses and maybe some misunderstandings of Mexican immigration and our immigration.

Next I will point this out as a person who has traveled over the last decade to mexico several times. It would be wise to learn a little bit about Mexico the people the history and the situation before completely blasting them about their immigration laws. I think you would find yourself in a different state of mind if you were the conqured nation. Second of all I don't exactly remember who made the comment about a drivers license but you don't really need one there your US licence will do fine.

I also think that maybe those who are highly concerned about our economy and the so called strain that immigration has put on it should look into the entire issue like one commment challenged. There are several people groups immigrating to the US both legally and illegally. But those who are focused on the hispanic population do have a point they might be the ones with the least education the highest number of immigrants and in terms of language the ones we have the most trouble getting along with.

These are often fantastic people I would like to point out. Ones with amazing stories and ones with stories that are sad where someone screwed up and are now trying to make up and survive or provide for their families. Ironically it wasn't 3 hundred years ago that people started coming to America in search of freedoms oppertunities and a new life. I understand that reality that we can't let everyone in economically that doesn't work in our brains and frankly what would we do if we could speak english we would be the people being made fun of more so than the French.

I think we should learn more about these people their stories and who they are. We should be willing to extend a little hospitality and yes if that means footing a 10 billion dollar tax deficit on our coin so someone else in the world could live a little better then they did before I think that is more than appropriate. And don't be fooled the hispanic population is likely not living the life of luxary in Mexico. But what do you care really most American buy a new car of some sort every 10 years or less live in a home of at least 50,000 have some sort of education healthcare and a decent oppertunity at a chance of a so called normal life. While that isn't an absolute it is probably more often the case than not.

And as far as Jesus goes hyporcrites or not Jesus did talk about them but I do think Jesus talk a lot about treating the least of these with hospitality, love and compassion for that is Jesus in the flesh. He did talk about loving others as we would wish to be loved. I think here we could learn a lot of lessons that maybe it is our responsibility to learn Spanish or Arabic so that we may let these people feel more at home so that we can understand where they are coming from so that we can help them learn English and assimilate into our society. I found this to be how I survived my time in Mexico learning Spanish and I am now comfortable both in Mexico and with my Spanish. In Africa it is my friends there who helped me with my French and Djoula and it is now that I am comfortable with Cote d'Ivoire and more comfotable with my French than I was before going over.

I say all of that only to point out that as a country that is so associated with Jesus and Christianity we aren't very hospitable or compassionate and we need to be. And as a country that screams of being the right way the land of oppertunity the place where we feel ok with invasion for the sake of democracy we should be ok with helping others live better even if it costs us a little more. In fact with the rise of globalization and the situation that we have internationall we will surely feel it bite us in our butts if we don't. The backlash will surely kick us off our heals.

Thanks for reading my thoughts I hope they were helpful to somebody.

CY

This recent article of yours outlines your case against the 'illegal' immigrants. Now how about that keen mind of yours taking the other side of this messy story.

You might include the issues of past actions by our government and private citizen industraial, commercial, and agricultural folk who neglected to follow the law and figured out how to gain from the immigrant illegalities during the past couple of decades. High officials and business persons certainly violated the SPIRIT of earlier laws by not enforcing them justly.Are our governments liable for oersight and are our busieness persons who really acted as LURES to attract the illegalities responsible TOO, in any sense?

Not to speak of the severe pending injustices toward the (USA citizen) children of the immigrants and the thoughtless nastiness of hard-liners now who now want many of us to forgot that WE caused the absurdities that generated the illegalities, which I will not deny. Is all of this Christian Behavior? Or does that question matter? Hypocrisy?

Write up the contrary case and give us all some balanced perspective CY. You are capable of it! Think of yourself as the TWO sides of the issue and seek a JUST solution to a very messy and MORAL problem.

Dick

Richard,
U. S. Citizens are already paying, a lot.
If you want to talk about thoughtless nastiness talk about the ruling class in Mexico.

TI,

YOU ARE NOT WRONG ABOUT THAT!

However that does not change the need for a compassionate look at the 'illegal' immigrant VICTIMS who should not pay the price. Our USA government has in many ways mistreated people and veterans too, Did you happen to see the PBS TV program about the 'bonus' issues involved with WWI in the early 1930s?

A MOST SAD AND DISGRACEFUL CASE BY PRESIDENT HOOVER AND THE US HOUSES.And I have also to include the disregard for funding passed laws that would have taken care of the 'Mexico Problem' years ago if past federal administrations had paid attention to their own PASSED laws. Plenty of blame -- BY NEGLECT -- all over the place. Its time the USA awakened to its own sins in the 'illegal' immigrants situation. JUSTICE MUST BE DONE, and its not a simple case of 'keep 'm out' and 'send 'm home to Mexico.'

Dick

Ha!
This made my day...

:)

I've gotten picked on so many times on Gather for not being PC about the folks who come to the USA to start a 'better life' I have friends who came here in recent years legally...and it was hard (and took a long time) but they are here to stay (mind you they learned English).

I heard that in CA whites are a minority (what exactly is 'white' these days since we're all white mutts anyway...)

I think this is a great post CY, and rings true in many ways. As far as the seriousness of the situation - I'll just say that I agree wholeheartedly with Josh's comments.

Cena,

The USA is going to be a lure for many talented, energetic, freedom seeking persons from all over the world for a long time to come. We have knowledge, creativity and productive capacity that will serve the needs of many developing countries for many decades ahead. Thus our system may grow and prosper no matter what the future holds.

We are -- even now -- showing strains for needed productive workers and so, perhaps, we need to review carefully not the issue we are currently fastened to, but LONG-RANGE IMMIGRATION and EMIGRATION too. We need to turn our attention to GROWING THE WORLD's ECONOMIC BASE for the LONG-TERM future. To help create Economic and Social Development -- without FEAR, for ALL!!

The potential skilled workers in our society --like our adventurous children and grandchildren -- might consider reverse flows to places that need them. Opportunities must abound in many places in the world, other than the USA. and might provide a fine life for WORLD CITIZENS without portfolio, with great opportunities overseas that we can't even imagine in our present troubled times. Think of WORLD economic growth and development. Think of everyplace in our WORLD as beneficiaries of the work of our USA's fantastic growth in the past -- DUE TO IMMIGRATION, from many, many places in our world. The Mayflower PILGRIMS didn't ask the indigenous Indians if they could enter and venture into 'THEIR' America. In some sense all of us present citizens are , ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

When I was a much younger person I had some ties to persons who designed the world famous USA Peace Corps that was made viable by Jack Kennedy. Maybe we in the USA should start by NOT being afraid of (very unlikey) long-term job loss to citizens and start to focus on the TWO-DIRECTIONAL flow problem. (1) Invites in -- LEGALLY without citizenship pending (the worker program suggested by the present administration) , and (2) developing emigration opportunities for our own young and young at heart. I'm really quite PO'd at the narrowness and fears being generated by this present unfortunate issue. Where is our LEGISLATIVE creativity. The 'leaders' of our great system should learn how to quell fears and generate enthusiasm for compassionate understanding and GROWTH (rather than DESTRUCTION) in this world of ours. The WORLD will become what we, collectively, think it CAN become.

Immigrants , PEOPLE MOVING IN AND OUT, made our country great. I don't think that that has changed. There is plenty of developing and developed BRAIN-MIND-HEART and MUSCLE power in places other than the USA. Let's become wiser and think LONG-RUN and prosperity with tranquility.

If we can't find it. LETS MAKE IT!

Dick

Richard,
You are not going to justify to me an increase in the population of the U.S.A.'s poor, based on feel good, feel guilt, comments. I am finding it revolting for you to imply that I am racist, narrow minded, xenophobic.

I also want to know what is so fantastic about population growth. Do I have to tell you that we are depleting the great Ogallala aquifer? Colorado river water is all used. California now prefers watering housing to watering agriculture. (better tax base) U.S.A. Cities now have huge slums, as dangerous as any during the last massive immigration of the early 1900's. It took WWII and 50 years to clean up the mess.

You are saying that the U.S.A. can continue to accept millions of immigrants and not have serious degradation of quality of life. I think you are wrong. I am watching California's largest agriculture valley fill up with houses, freeways are not being repaired or built, libraries are closing, public schools are failing, and public health services are now nearly non existent. I have for the last 15 years watched housing for low wage workers deteriorate to levels similar to any third world nation.

You are telling me that because hundreds of other nations refuse to allow their own people even the most basic rights, provide even simple education and health services, that the citizens of the U.S.A. must allow huge numbers of immigrants. We know that billions of dollars of economic aid to these countries have only been used to enrich the rich.

I think we are going to have an awful time assimilating the current population of immigrants. The illegal immigrant children and the born here children of illegal immigrants are not getting an education. They are now the fastest growing prison inmate population. They are entering the job market at the lowest possible jobs, must compete with illegal immigrants and not upwardly mobile.

The U.S.A. already has an immigration policy, which includes accepting refugees. I will add that something like 75 percent of the refugee immigrants are already on welfare and public support. They are not assimilating. When they do enter the workforce they must compete with illegal immigrants for the lowest wages.

PS, I have never heard of many immigrants returning home. What is done instead is the new citizen petitions for the elder members of their families, then when the elder person has been here the required number of years to become citizens, they do, they are then
put on the social security rolls, the one for indigent adults, and Medicaid. This is done in spite of the fact that the petitioner has promised to be financially responsible for the elder family member, and even though many because of their age do not learn English, they are allowed to become citizens. There were big noises about this, ten years ago, but I doubt if it has stopped.

Your comments sound so humanitarian, they are not. They are designed to make any citizen of the U.S.A. seem selfish. You seem perfectly comfortable telling my children that they must not have what I worked for them to have. You say we must instead give it to someone else. I now read you as a perfect spokesperson for the capitalists. Your purpose and direction is to ruin all that is good in this nation. Or perhaps Vicente Fox has put you on his payroll. The argument that the U.S.A. must forever bail out the citizens of corrupt nations is without merit from any viewpoint.

I have to say as far as satire and sarcasm go this is great. I thought the parade through our town was funny as well, with the migrant workers carrying signs saying " we are not crimminals" if not crimminal why referred to as illegals?
Also, I know of many migrant workers that have their families 'checks' go under one ss number so in the 'off-season' one person can collect the unemployment meanwhile the others go on welfare as needy but I assume that is perfectly 'legal' as well.....mmmm. Great writing and I know it is a touchy subject but we are allowed freedom of speech

Cena,

Please believe me, I had and have no basic intent other than to discuss this issue in 'calm and collected' terms. My grandparents were immigrants and I knew them well. They were loving and kind people who came to this country in the late 1800s to find and live a better life. They came into the USA legally and DID make that kind of life for my parents, my uncles and aunts and thus for me and my brothers and now our families. I thank God that they were the kind of persons that they were: loving. hard working, compassionate and helpful to others, and intelligent. I have to presume that the present 'legal and illegal' immigrants are no different from my grandparents in most ways, although times are certainly different.

I hope I am a worthy spokesman for 'morality' and justice' while realizing that 'errors' have been made by the immigrants, our state and local governments, and especially our Presidents and Legislators WHO (I do believe) try to find the equitable solutions. I deeply believe in a JUST and WISE and PROFITABLE (legally) capitalist system. I do believe that PROPER salvation is most likely to occur IF we find ways for ALL PERSONS to have the spiritual and MATERIAL means to do so -- WORLDWIDE and NOW, forever! Our technical knowledge can enable the creation of a new and different WORLD that is likely to become better and better IF we learn to weave ethical principles into our aspirations in ways that moot our fears. Governments should be trying to build environments that in the future may be called both SACRED (built on admirable VALUES) and SECULAR.

I think that if things are so bad in California as you suggest, it is incumbent upon YOUR State government to be 'doing its work' to solve the problems with our Federal Government -- with wise and just intentions. I know next to nothing about the state and local issues that you note. I hope and pray that they are NOT causing the grief that you note in your writings.

With friendship and a developing understanding, I am grateful for your illuminating comments. However, I still think that the immigrants -- to me -- seem to be victims as well as technical violators of the LAWS, but perhaps NOT against a spirtual code that is universally embraceable.

Dick

Richard,
You know it is a fact that California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas have been begging for help for decades.

As a humorous device it is very funny. It reaches - it wouldn't be amusing if it didn't reach. I do think it makes a few points. I would be guarded against nay-saying Martin's points too quickly. We do have some serious problems within our own culture and infrastructure, especially when it comes to dealing with people of color. This is a frustrating and drawn-out problem. Interesting post.

Yes, that is true Cat, and the current Senat bill actually not only wants to legalize the 12 million illegals, but allow immigration of 20 million more legally. I think that we are going to be paying the social costs for decades.
You live in California, like I do and you know most of us don't care where anyone came from, but some do.
I think the worst ramifaction is the social status of a huge underpaid workforce. This will create resentment, no matter what the skin color, and is what I fear. The disrespect for work and the workers.

PS Yankee, your list is amusing and comic relief to all the discussions we are having on gather about this issue. And look what you begat!

I agree with one thing Michael said waaay up there: it's going after the employers that is key. We can't accomplish anything any other way and it really makes too much sense.

Great post, C.Y! Keep 'em howling!

hmmm, yeah- well...it is a LITTLE more complicated than you understand it to be. Try and get out of your hometown once in a while and eat at restaurants that are NOT named "McDonald's" or "Applebees"
Yeah...you need a little more life expierence. Maybe you and the wife-n-kids should move out of your parent's basement.

Thanks for reaching out.