Illegals Were Not The Terrorists, So Why The Fuss?

I heard one cogent statement this morning. This is unusual, since it comes from the pandering, braindead, vapid pundits on CNN. This seems to be the ONLY issue that Bush thinks he can win on - and if the republicans have a snowballs chance in hell of not getting routed in the November electrions, they need some momentum. This is the only issue that might be possible.

And this push is nothing new - recently it is - but the exact same things were said exactly 100 years ago... same analysis, same outrage, business interests against labor unions against bigoted converatives. The immigrant group was the Italians. 40 Years before that, the exact same thing happened - over the Irish. I disagree with the bromide, those who don't study the past are condemned to repeat it -- we will repeat it, whether we want to or not.

Thanks, Will. I thought we were beyond all that, but I can see we are not.

Bush is bold, do you think he really believes what he's doing makes any sense at all?
-Pollyana

Not asking the green cards of all the immigrants I've met, I can't really guess at how many have been, or were here illegally. Seems the news only covers the issue when there's been some problem. Like rich people with un-documented housekeepers and gardeners, or produce farmers whose workers get into some kind of trouble. The majority of employers have been asking for proof of residency from applicants for well over ten years. There are some valid concerns that should be addressed, but this issue is being hyped, probably to keep the populace stirred up.

A great comment to start a conversation. I have a couple of comments.

First of all, I don't know what "the deal" is. I think (and people on the other side ignore this fact at their peril) that there are as many reasons for supporting the tightening up of the borders as there are supporters. I think it's terribly misguided to label all of those people "racists." For one thing, "Hispanic" is not a "race," it's a cultural unit, if you will, and a poorly defined one at that. Mexicans are not Hondurans are not Cubans, just as English are not Irish are not Scots.

I'm in favor of tightening the borders, for a number of reasons. One is that even though you're correct in noting that the people who blew up the Pentagon and the World Trade Center were here legally, that does not change the fact that it's ridiculously easy for people who mean us ill to cross the border (north OR south). We are not fighting a war with an army; we're fighting a "war" (which is a poor word for what's going on, but it's what we have) with small groups of individuals. Different times call for different tactics.

But beyond that, there is also the fact that legal is legal, and illegal is illegal. Really, we're getting almost psychotic on this subject. A radio personality invoked the name of Joseph Heller (my favorite author) yesterday to describe a situation in which the Senate is considering passing a law which makes it a violation of law to enter this country illegally. Huh??? A basic tenet of the civil rights movement, born out of the civil disobedience philosophies of Leo Tolstoy, Mohandas Gandhi and later, Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Catonsville 9 is that sometimes one must break an unjust law, but one must also, at the same time, honor the legal system that makes those laws. That's why Thoreau went to jail for not paying his taxes; that's why Martin Luther King, Jr. and Daniel Berrigan went to jail for their acts of civil disobedience. Perhaps they could have hired a good lawyer and escaped on a technicality, but they purposely did not do that because they understood that while a particular law might need to be changed or even resisted, the system of laws was, ultimately, their friend.

When we start saying that certain laws can be flouted, we are opening a Pandora's Box that will lead only to chaos. And I think we just emotionally relate to the unfairness of it: having been married to an immigrant (as was my sister), I know only too well the hoops through which legal immigrants must jump in order to become citizens. Furthermore, as the mother of a gay child, I am VERY touchy about the fact that I could marry a man who was an immigrant, an act which granted him citizenship, but anywhere except in Massachusetts (and I think it's still to be seen whether Mass marriages will stand up to federal immigration laws), my son can fall in love with a man, want to marry him and spend the rest of his life with him, and yet that man can be sent back to his homeland. I have known couples whose lives were torn apart, simply because they were gay and the government would not allow them to get married and apply for citizenship, as I could. So people who come here legally face all kinds of impediments, but instead of focusing on making immigration laws equitable for ALL people, too many people are saying "just flout the law and come on in."

I do feel a tremendous amount of compassion for many of the people who come here illegally. If I were in their positions, I would do the same thing. They are truly victims in a continental class war. But inviting them to pour over the border into our country is not the solution.

Instead of accusing your fellow citizens of being racist, turn the binoculars around in the other direction and ask yourself, why are people so poor in a country like Mexico, which is almost insanely rich in natural resources, from oil to beach-front property? What is Vincente Fox TRULY protecting? I'll tell you what it is: a mindboggling corrupt political and social structure which perpetuates a feudal system which permits some people to be crazy rich, while the rest of the population suffers in poverty. Allowing these people to come HERE and benefit from what we have built may benefit them, but it is disastrous to the economies and cultures of the states and territories which must absorb the influx of impoverished and illiterate people (it's easy to talk trash in Massachusetts, but it's a whole other story in Arizona and California) and does NOTHING to address the original problem. George Bush does not want to address the source of the problem, because he's in bed with the rich in Mexico -- the oil people, etc. They are all the same, interested in shoring up their own power, even at the expense of continuing, relentless poverty.

And finally, while it MAY be true that most Americans will not mow lawns for minimum wage, you've got to ask yourself about the morality of allowing a system which exploits those people coming across the border by forbidding them a living wage and the benefits that accrue to legal workers, simply because they are desperate. They are, fundamentally, a slave culture, being used rather ruthlessly by big business so we can eat cheap lettuce and hire someone to mow our lawns instead of doing it ourselves. The European nations have discovered the havoc that such callous manipulation can ultimately create. Let's not repeat their mistakes.

As for deporting illegals, I don't think it's practical, nor do I think it's particularly honorable. I would propose a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for people who are already here. If someone is arrested for breaking the law, then back they go. Other than that, if someone's working, paying taxes, etc., leave them alone.

As for the English issue -- again, I do believe it's a false charity, paternalism at its worst, to encourage a bilingual culture, because the bottom line is this: to be successful in this country, you're going to have to speak English. Bilingual education, as it presents itself now, does little more than condemn a whole population to a marginal life.

Well, I've gone on and on, but I've done it because I think it's a very important issue and too much of the rhetoric on both sides of the debate is simplistic and stereotypical and self-righteous. It's something we're going to have to truly deal with as a nation, and it's not going to happen unless we can shift the conversation away from self-righteous name-calling and toward a respectful attempt to understand one another's point of view.

Thanks Cat for drawing these comments in, all are very thoughtful and well expressed (except Pollyanas).

Interesting comments to be sure. I appreciate the well thought out and detailed explanations and arguements....
Thank you for your thoughts.

The push to seal the borders is like everything else "political " these days. It's purpose is to avoid addressing the real issue. The real issue is 8 to 12 million people already in this country who are willing to work for minimum wage or below, with little or no benefits.
Now that this bargin basement workforce has been secured, Corporate America won't need any more cheap labor for a few decades. So, Washington can fool voters into believing it is listening to them by pretending to be hard-nosed about shutting down the borders.
Voters will think Washington is listening to them, and Coroprate America will get a few decades worth of super-cheap labor. It's a win-win situation for everyone except America itself.
BTW, Who's going to get the contracts to build these walls ? And how much are the workers who build them going to be paid ?
H-m-m-m, Import your own cheap labor, when you get the amount of it you want cut off the flow of that cheap labor, secure a government contract to build a huge wall that will keep out un-needed illegals, build that wall with temporary workers who used to be illegals from the country the wall is supposed to protect us from.
This takes graft to the level of fine art.

Well wait a moment folks, for the last TEN YEARS, New Mexico, Arizona and California have been begging for help on illegal immigration.
This is not an election year for anyone living in those states.

It is purely political that Bush is now getting involved, and he is actually blessing the illegals and their employers.

I am concerned about the costs. If California schools were emptied of illegal immigrant children, and the born here children of illegal immigrants half of them could close. Education is expensive. As for poor U.S. citizens, we can no longer provide even basic health care so huge is the bill for taking care of illegal immigrants who also receive very poor care.
However, my primary concern is that we now have

12 million illegal immigrants, living and working outside all laws.
There are the employers, also engaged in willing lawbreaking

I can't see how it can be useful for a nation of laws to have such a significant population in outlaw status.

George you are so correct.
I am dumfounded and speechless that so many think this is just sweet little hard working folks trying for a better life.

There is annother angle this will be the final blow to the
Social Security Program.
A significant number of the illegal immigrants are self employed or employed for cash.
They are being trumpeted as the saviors of Social Security, yet are making no contribution, and certainly not paying income tax.
As for employers, They save money by paying cash and disguising the cost another expense.
They don't pay the employer portion of Social Security/Medicare
They don't pay unemployment tax
They don't pay a for wormkans comp insurance
They will not be audited

I like this discussion. From a very practical standpoint, we can either have low paid people in this country, shopping at Walmart and paying sales tax, or we can have them working in one of our factories recently moved to Mexico, because everyone here wants cheap stuff, but is unwilling to work for the kind of wages cheap stuff are made of.

Ron, I appreciate your point here. I was waiting for someone to bring up the U S factories in Mexico.
You all have such wonderful comments..
Even though I don't agree with some, you make your points intelligently and eloquently.

I still don't see the problem.

As for laws broken simply by being illegal, speeders are breaking the law, too. So is anybody who lights up on the sidewalk in front of the courthouse. Most of us pick and choose which laws to obey.

As for taxes and workers comp, social security and the like:
false social security numbers and IDs are often used so that employers can "legally" employ somebody, so quite a bit of money is going into social security, unemployment, workers comp, etc.
There are also millions of legal Americans working "under the table" who don't pay into those things, as there have been for decades.

It seems racist to me.

As far as lumping legals in with illegals, I wasn't meaning to do that. It's the e-mails I keep getting telling me we don't need to have two languages or more in the US.......Speak the language if you live in our country, There is no difference I can see between illegals and legal immigrants in these ranting e-mails. Sorry it is such an insult........ don't understand that one, either.

As far as education costing so much and the children of illegals in the schools sucking the resources for the citizens.... while it's a well voiced point, the school systems are suffering all over this country. We need more aggressive funding of all education. It is a crime to have education suffer when the money is spent otherwise for corporate bail outs, wars and lavish pay and perks for Washington elitists.
Akron Public Schools are still unable to operate without a deficit even after major teacher and staff cuts. Next year, the state will take them over. Hardly any illegals in Akron schools, just poor people.

As far as Wall★Mart paying low wages, as Ron mentioned, they are a great example of the problem with corporate America dining on the backs of the poor.
If you notice, even though factories are being built in Mexico, the population still comes here.

On bilingual education, my sister teaches in California. When they got rid of it, it was a terrible thing....Not sure I agree, coming from Quebec...But I think it is important to teach the Spanish-speaking English....Since there is less illegal immigration here from South of the Border where I am, I'm not as well versed as some, but I don't agree that we should police our borders or stop illegals....We were founded on a premise, let's keep to that.

Come to Los Angeles, San Diego or most places in the Southwest and you will see for yourself what the big deal is - no one is against immigration - but you need to appreciate the scale of illegal immigration and see its effects to 'get it'.
Ironically - illegal immigration is hurting newly arrived Mexican-Americans more than any other group because desperate workers from the south come in and take over all the unskilled labor positions and then compete for housing. They drive down wages and drive up the cost of living. This happens because when workers are illegal - they don't pay income tax or SSi ( sometimes they do) and have no health insurance. We pay incredibly high property taxes - and get zero in return - why? Health insurance for all these 'low cost laborers' is paid by taxpayers because they go to the LA county hospitals where they get free medical attention.

I could go on and on - but it is not racism that motivates me or the many Latinos that are fed up with the huge waves of immigrants flooding the border. I have worked my entire adult life in East LA which is about 85% Latino. That neighborhood has provided me with a job, and allowed me to teach their children. I owe them. I owe them the truth - and the truth is - the school system - the network of social services - can not sustain the amount of illegal immigration we currently have.

"As for laws broken simply by being illegal, speeders are breaking the law, too. So is anybody who lights up on the sidewalk in front of the courthouse. Most of us pick and choose which laws to obey."

By this argument, if we are to allow illegal immigrants in because "everybody breaks the law," then we should just stop arresting speeders, drunk drivers, child abusers, thieves, etc., because, well, everybody picks and chooses what laws to break -- they just made different choices. That's PRECISELY the problem with giving certain lawbreakers a pass. How do you then justify enforcing any laws? Change the law if you want, but let's not Brave New World it here by trying to make "illegal" mean "legal, in this situation."

Wendy, you make a good counter point to my illegal acts statement. I should have clarified that I don't think ALL laws should be treated in such a manner, only certain ones, like what I mentioned. But you make and EXCELLENT point.

Nathan, I agree with you. I do believe the answer is not stricter acts on immigration or illegals, but with our funding of the health care and school systems as a nation. Our states are overburdened yet there is plenty of money to be spent on a giant wall or other wars and congressional pay hikes and sweet deals with Haliburton.

Cat, I agree with you that much of the immigration debate seems racist.

I think the U.S. certainly has the right to control its borders and know who comes in. Every other country in the world does that to some degree and I don't think current U.S. immigration policies are too far out of line with what other countries do. However, when this issue is discussed, the focus is almost always on Mexicans. That's the part that's racist.

Why are we so worried about Mexicans and not others? If the discussion was how, in general, to control immigration without focusing on one group, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with some of the ideas that have been raised.

As far as the proposals to build fences along the borders go, with Bush spying on us and putting some people in jail without due process and all the other violations of our civil liberties this administration has perpetrated, quite frankly I'm afraid those fences will someday prove to be at least as much designed to keep us IN.

Several of the 9/11 terrorists got fake ID from illegal Mexican residents in a 7-11 parking lot, where illegals congregate for day-labor pick-up. Sounds like it does tie in with terrorists, to any objective observer. They got into the country legally, and overstayed their visas.

I wonder what the breakdown is, of people who came here legally and overstayed, vs. "over the wall" entry. Right, there is no wall, but you know what I mean...but I digress.

By the way, what part of the debate is "racist?" I didn't hear that in the fence proposal, or the language debate, except from Harry Reid, who was roundly ridiculed for his extreme characterization of the legislation. I'm sure you don't want to be associated with him.

Have a great day, and good luck reading all those comments! I wanted to respond to some of them, instead of your post!

Christophre, please feel free to comment to any and all of these comments, as that is what dialogue is!
I did not know about the fake IDs, but I know they are available from many sources. Didn't know these were from illegals. So I think you are saying certain illegals helped the terrorists?
The part of what is racist is the e-mails I keep getting. They always involve bi-lingual education and people angry because the shop signs are in two languages, or that people are flying their country of origin's flag. And the wall is being proposed on the border of MEXICO only.
Thanks for your comments, and lending another aspect to this debate.
Peace,
Cat

All I can say after reading all this is that I agree with some of it from everyone of you. All this was very well said and intelligently thought out , so congrats to you all and I am in agreement. But what about refugees. I know of 400 that have UN ID's and can relocate in any country they choose and they all had their screening last summer and paid to leave and now are just waiting living in poor conditions with hardly enough to eat fightimg to keep from getting malaria and other things if they don't get them out . Right now they are all healthy and need to go but when ask when, they tell them due process, and I myself know due process doesn't take a year and these are going to other countries legally through the right channels. So why are they making them wait while illigals are allowed to flow in as you say.these people are willing to work hard and pay like anyone else, but they are not being given the chance yet. They would even fight for the country they go to just to have some thing better to live for. I know this because I get news from one of them there,and have known about this for three years and tried to get some one to help them. It is not thier fault they went through a war they never wanted or ask for. These people just wanted to live in peace. I am talking about the rebel war in Monrovia and was just over not too long ago. Seems so unfair that people who want to come legally have to suffer so much,while other illegals are made to have it easy. that's my thoughts on that.

The "fuss" comes from our country being invaded (economically) by Mexico and
the copycat countries. For 30 years now, their citizens have been coming here illegally disrespecting our laws, and us. This influx is like a medieval type war.
Back then, tribes raided other tribes' towns and looted it for everything they could get, and brought the loot back to their town. Today, the illegal "immigrants"
take jobs and send huge portions (often 90%) of their wages back to their home country. According to the GAO, this results in $40 Billion/year taken out of our economy and re-inserted into theirs (mostly Mexico). Another $62 Billion is extracted from out treasuries (mostly state and local), going into illegal aliens'
pockets in human services (emergency room reimbusements, food stamps for anchor babies, college tuitions etc.) That,s $102 Billion/year we lose, they gain
right there and we haven't even started talking about the lucrative (for them)
drug trade of Mexico. All this money is Mexico's #2 source of income (2nd only to
their oil exports).
So who gains and who loses ? It's the biggest international burglary in
world history. Talk about plunder, pillaging ? $102 Billion/year. Attila & his Huns
would be envious. Make no mistake the invader countries aren't any innocent
bystanders. They are actively involved. Vicente Fox speaks out in favor of Mexico's
poor migrating here every chance he gets. So does the Irish President (forgot his name but there's 50-100,000 Irish illegalaliens here - see legalizetheirish.org).
Try this on for size. If your neighbors who have wealth (as Mexico does), sent
their 6 kids to your door barefoot on a cold day, hoping you'll take them to the store
and buy them shoes would you do that ? Of course the kids should have shoes
BUT its your neighbors' job to provide for them, not you.
The illegal immigration situation is even worse. Not only are we paying Mexico's poverty bill (while they laugh at us), but their citizens are swiping our jobs,
reducing our wages, reducing our tax bases (and therefore our govt. services),
overcrowding our schools, hospitals, prisons, jails, recreational facilities, govt. offices, roads & highways, adding pollution to our environment, bringing in various
diseases unmonitored, eroding our language and other cultural aspects, adding to
the overuse of scarce, finite natural resources (ex. oil, and this causes gas prices to go up with the added demand), and huge increases in crime.
I highly suggest a good month of watching Lou Dobbs on CNN (America's premier spokesmen of the 2006 New Left), while old Socialists and Democrats, Greens, etc. have evolved into today's New Right as they support Corporate Mexico, the worst elements of Corporate America (the domestic outsourcers) & George W. Bush.

Mary,
thank you for adding your observations first hand into this debate. I am in agreement with you these folks should be not denied coming somewhere.
I don't think it is the illegals' fault, but I understand your frustration in this. There is not symmetry in the allowing of immigrants, and these are truly in need.

Robert, thank for your comments. You make good points.
I will say that corporations who have moved to mexico, or corporations based in the US but with manufacturing overseas have taken more of our money out of the country than illegals. Also, the societal ills of which you speak, while legitimate, are symtoms of a failed system. We need health care for everybody, and our environmental issues...... the oil for example) are needing desperately to be re done. We must stop relying on depletable resources and go to renewables.
The crime is another way the disenfranchised deal with lack of power and money. It sucks. But the illegals are not the culprits here, it is the system, I submit to you.
Not trying to take blame away from criminals, please don't let me do that. Anyone who deals in harming others needs to be stopped. I state here it is the criminalistic harming of our population by our current government which needs to stop.

Yes, I totally agree with you Cat, about the system in general being to blame.
I was complaining about it back in the 60's when it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. In fact, I lost my job in January 2005 to international outsourcing, when my company's manufacturing building shut down and reopened in Mexico.
Although I feel bad for anyone trying to escape poverty, including illegal aliens,
I have to be real about certain things. Having spoken to a few dozen ot them in
Spanish when they held a rally in Tampa a few months ago, it was clear they have
a lot less sympathy for us, and the problems I mentioned, than we have for them.
Frankly, I found them to be oblivious to our problems entirely. When I informed
them, 90% didn't give a hoot one bit. I don't know if your assesment that more of our money is being lost to international outsourcing than domestic outsourcing, is
correct or not but intl OS is decreasing while domestic OS (AKA illegal immigration) is
increasing. Its hard to define the IAs as not culprits when they are about the same as poor people entering your home, taking your stuff, and bringing it back to their home. Either it's burglary in my book. Sure our govt harms us but domestic OS is
the latest and meanest way they're doing it.

Robert, I'm glad for your bringing to my attention your first hand observations. I am going to do some searching about our jobs going to Mexico and other moneys spent and come back after I'm more informed.

Cat....thanks for 'straightening the lines' between illegal immigration and terrorists...somehow these two avenues got blurred together with the current administration. Before 'our jobs going to Mexico' it was 'our jobs going to Thailand, China and Korea.' That's the fault of open trade and commerce. Big companies will go where ever they can to save a few bucks because Americans want good products at a cheap cost. Most people forget who really made up this country, established it and made it grow in to what it is today.....men and women from other countries....some legal some not. As I've said before, my great-great grandparents came here on a small boat way before the time of Ellis Island. They had no papers.....only the clothes on their backs and a BIG dream. They worked hard, struggled, starved and some died but the family survived. They built this country and the many like them. Now, we're closing our doors on living, breathing human beings because of a piece of paper? We need to keep our eyes on the prize......which is NOT getting this country in anymore unnecessary wars and stop aggravating the rest of the world by trying to shove our way of democracy and beliefs down their throats! I wonder what makes us think that "our way" is so damn superior? Instead of worrying about what's happening half way around the world, we need to take care of the people here.....all of us.....illegal or not. The world laughs at us for going where we don't belong when we have sooooo much here in this country that desperately needs our attention.

Lori, Thank you so very much for your informed and valued opinion. Honey, it is exactly this which makes me cringe when I get another of those racist e-mails. We ALL are here. Let's take care of US.

I submit, Robert, that it is th outsourcing of US jobs to foreign countries and the hiding of profits in offshore banks which is robbing the United States of TRILLIONS of dollars, and not the illegals nor the legals who funnel money home. It's not robbery when a person works for thier pay. Period.
And when somebody's kids don't have shoes, your damn well right I shoe them. It is the attitude of us versus them which is the problem. It's a blindfold by the current administration to conceal their own immorality, their own failed policies, and their robbing us blind by awarding contracts to their cronies. Period.
click here or here and here and here

Cat,
Your statement that outsourcing US jobs to foreign countries is robbing us is
right. But your other statement that illegals funneling money home is not robbery
is wrong. The illegal aliens citizens (OF MEXICO AND OTHER COUNTRIES) are taking
our jobs and they are being taken by Mexico and those other countries (quite a few
of which are White European ex. Ireland, Bosnia, Russia, Poland) by virtue of the fact that it is THEIR citizens who are 1. getting those jobs 2. getting the American
economy money from them and 3. having that money go to their home countries
and staying there. Just as if your neighbor entered your home, took money off your table, and brought back to their home. Theft, plain and simple. What we
really need to do as far as the US and THEM is concerned, is get it exactly right who
all we're talking about. Open borders advocates not only distort this issue by covering it with race card talk which is a dodge (thank you Louis, Nathan and Christoper), but they also usually confine the major players to be illegal aliens
(as good guys - they basically are) and the Bush administration as bad guys (they
certainly are). BUT neither of those are the main players here. First, the true bad
guys: 1. Corporate Mexico (and the copycat countries) and their government,
2. the Domestic Outsourcers (the employers hiring illegal aliens and ABANDONING
US, the US working class and 3. the Bush administration (running dogs, if you will,
of the Domestic Outsourcers). Secondly, the good guys and robbery victims are
US, the American people & workers. WE are being robbed by MEXICO, HONDURAS,
EL SALVADOR, IRELAND, RUSSIA and all the rest of them. You know why those 28
countries in the OAS condemned us for the Mexican border fence ? Because they
are also the robbers, just like Mexico, who are sending their cheap labor troops here too, to rip off our economy and local treasuries. Border Fence ? It's no different than the locks on our doors which we use to RESTRICT who may enter our
homes, and keep out the burglars. Wouldn't it be nice if there were no burglars.
But there are and that's why we have door locks and that's why we need a border
fence to defend ourselves from the largest international burglary ($150 Billion/yr)
in world history. Actually, Vicente (big mouth) Fox is right. We shouldn't be building
that fence. Mexico should be building it, at their expense (yes they can afford it),
just like our neighbor should build a fence (not us), at his expense, if his kids are
entering our yard, causing a variety of disturbances (re: my Oct. 11 post), damaging
our yard and its trees/bushes, and not everybody wants to cover for an irresponsible neighbor whether it's tolerating yard damage, buying shoes or otherwise letting them rob us by scamming us into covering their costs.

Robert,
Thanks for your informed and well thought out opinion.
I do not think it is robbery when they are paid for work. If somebody comes in and steals from me, that is one thing. If somebody is paid for work, it is not robbery. And the United States is keeping these countries poor by our policies and puppet governments.
Keep thinking and keep posting.

What's happening here is you are focused on the people who are here working.
I'm focused on the ones who are sending them and profiting by the situation. That
is Corporate Mexico/Mexican Government (actually theres quite a few countries, but
I use the biggest violator for simplicity purpose). About $150 Billion/yr total is leaving us and going to the "burglar" countries who, at this point , we could say are
colonizing us. This is Mexico's # 1 source of income - bigger than their oil and silver
exports combined. The illegal aliens are just their pawns. It is the ultra-rich ruling
class in Mexico that is engineering this gigantic burglary (and their government).
So, it is the United States who is keeping these countries much RICHER than they ordinarily would be ($45 B/yr remittances, $62 B/yr human services, $50 B/yr
drug trade). Frankly, this is much more than an international burglary- it is a new
21st century style "war". One where the "troops" are cheap labor replacements for our workers and the process removes our wealth. You know, even in WWII,
the Japanese did not occupy our land with 12 - 20 million of their citizens and remove $150 Billion/year of our wealth (out of our economy and re-inserted into theirs) and all in violation of our PROTECTIVE immigration laws. Hard to define it as
anything but flat-out deliberate theft. Let's not forget the domestic outsourcers whose profits are soaring from all this cheap labor. In a way we're being ripped off by them too with the blessing of the Bush administration. The illegal alien workers
and non working alien welfare recipents are only the most visible. The invisible ones behind the scenes, back in Mexico, are the real culprits.
Yes, there are some policies in NAFTA which hurt Mexicans, but NAFTA also
removes jobs from us and relocates them in Mexico, much to the benefit of Mexican
people there. My job at Essilor of America in St. Petersburg, (and 850 other jobs
there) was one of those outsourced jobs lost from us, gained by them.
Feeling sorry for Mexico is old left propaganda, which used to be right ,but is totally wrong in today's (21st CENTURY) world. Some of those people are so ingrained in their past ideas that they can't comprehend how things have shifted.
We could say past United States presidents were perpetrators of U.S. imperialism in Vietnam, Nicaraugua and maybe now in Iraq. But with domestic
outsourcing, WE are the victims of Mexican imperialsim and from the copycats too.
Those old left "intellectuals" have become the New Right by supporting Bush,
the employers of illegal aliens (Corporate America), and Corporate Mexico. Sorry
about how long my posts are, but Bob Dylan didn't become famous by writing short
songs.

I adore Dylan!

I appreciate your comments. Still, I know the e-mails sent to me are downright racist and blame the Mexican illegals for all our country's economic ills.
It just doesn't pan out that way.

I do understand that the illegals here take jobs.... and ...... often are basically slave laborers. I do understand the troubles are perpetuated by the profiteers of these souls. Before we enact legislation (or a big fence for that matter)... we must change the laws by which the profiteers are able to continue their exploitation.

Yes, change the laws.... wait a minute. We already have darn good laws.
Designed to protect the American people. We have laws forbidding American employers from hiring illegal workers. So why are these profiteers enjoying record
profits by using cheap, foreign labor (both inside & outside the country) ? Because
our illustrious "leaders" (primarily the Bush administration and the Democrats) are
allowing them to do it, and , of course, we take the fall. Since the Democrats now
control both houses of Congress and generally agree with Bush about his guest worker ideas, things are beginning to look bad for the American worker ( I should say worse - they're already bad).
So what can we do ? We can bitch out our Senators and Congressmen for being
hypocrites who rant about our jobs leaving the country but support having our jobs
leave the country, while still inside the country but they've left the country by going to nationals of other countries who are here. Also, regarding the terrorist question, it is increasingly being shown that terrorist-connected people from middle east countries are entering across the unfenced Mexican border, some have been
caught and imprisoned or deported. It's very disturbing that we 're getting Rep.
Bennie Thompson (D-MS) to head the House Homeland Security Committee - his
remarks show another hypocisy. He rants about port security and checking incoming shipping containers (a good idea no doubt), but he wants to "revisit' the Mexican border fence legislation (supported by 54% of Americans). Well, I guess the terrorists just shift their dirty bomb deliveries from the ports to the mexican border right ? Ho Hum. Being a terrorist is getting easier every day thanks to guys like Bend-A-Law Bennie.

Fear. Paranoia, even.

Yep, divide the people and maybe they won't notice you're living off their flesh.

Your strongest point is in your title, and i see few comments addressing it.

Yes, we need to strengthen our country's security. The Bush League is not doing it, *and neither are the Minutemen*. Illegal immigrants are not a terrorist threat. Giant container trucks coming over the border uninspected ARE. The big storm over starving people smuggling their bodies over the border to make a few bucks and save their families takes attention away from the real dangers created by people with a lot of money who are making a lot of profit over shipping uninspected cargo of all kinds, including drugs and weapons, over our borders uninspected.

The immigrants are a diversion. Anyone who cares about our country's security, stop being diverted!

Nor are immigrants the reason you can't find a job or your school can't afford books for everyone. There is a growing wealth gap in this country, the income of 80% of us is going *down* while the income of the top 20% accelerates up, the middle class that is the backbone of the country is vanishing like buffalo, and none of this is caused by illegal immigrants.

The tactic of "divide and conquer" has been working ever since one ape got the other two to fight over a banana so that he could run away with all the rest. It is most likely that the people who are making the most profit out of today's economy are the people who are influencing it the most. That is not illegal immigrants, or people on welfare, or pregnant teenagers, or homeless panhandlers. If you want to find the people holding the strings, look up.

There's where the real danger is coming from.

Many of the 9-11 terrorists had expired visas.

I do so appreciate your comments.

It is clearer to me than ever that the immigration issue is merely a screen to detract us from the truly sinister world banking industry which is part of this current government in the US

2 entirely different issues unless you can explain what you mean.