We've Heard About Rev. Wright--What About Rev. John Hagee?

A Right Wing Conservative I know needs to see this - he told me Madonna was The Great Whore of Babylon.

this puts a whole new light on McCain's song of "bomb, bomb, bombbomb Iran" doesn't it. I had thought he was being cute with a group that would appreciate it but after Hagee's serious opinion that bombing Iran would bring on the Rapture and therefore SHOULD be done, I see it as much more seriously threatening.

I think patriarchial, authoritative religions tend to give politicians who adheir to them a large feeling of power and entitlement. That's the scarey part of them, to me.

While I very much appreciate your research Carla your articles on religion and thinking, (mind watching) are much better fun to read. This man Rev. John Hagee is a very under-developed consciousness, really quite undeserving of your time...

DON'T GET ME STARTED ... :-(

I have watched countless hours of the Trinity Broadcasting Networks (TBN) many years ago during my attempts to better understand the Christian mindset ... the Rev. Hagee and Pastor Parsley were a great (and I'll bet still are) really big part of that programming ... I am well aware of them both and so many more ... is it any wonder that I have such a low opinion of such religions in general ... and the far right wing Evangelicalism specifically ???

Robin said it best. I can't believe McCain said he was happy to get his endorsement. Hillary can definitely use this against him. Obama can't. I hope the general elections will be about the issues. This whole thing about the MEN OF GOD is plain silly!

Doesn't anyone see why I keep saying that we need to get rid of the clergy and their vain machinations? They are the blind leading the blind. And Jesus gets lost in the whole charade.

Carla the difference is clearly black and white. Nobody is scared that Hagee or Parsley followers are going to riot in the streets; lots of folks are concerned that Wight's followers might be easily provolked into burning America's cities. As over the top as Hagee or Parsley may be considered, they have been around a long time - for those who give it no weight, its old hat. On the other hand, Wright is a slap in the collective face, not because his remarks were anymore inflamatory then those made by the others, but because America has been busy pretending for years that African Americans had been assimulated and we're no longer angry. Wright burst that ballon; shook us out of our denial and forced us to look at and talk about what we'd rather ignore.

I do think McCain's choice of "friends" & spiritual guides will become a bigger issue as we approach the general election,as will his healthn & how he spends his wife's money.

Sadly, Donald you hit the nail on the head & BTW: I'm clergy.

Hey, Donald, I am an ordained minister. But I completely understand your feelings. The truth is that we're all not like this. One can't lump all clergy into the same category, just as with any other profession (lawyers?). So very few walk the walk--me included. I try but fall short quite often.

Michelle, I appreciate your perspective.

Carla -

Wright is one situation, and Hagee/Parslee is another.

Let me ask you this : If you had an uncle that was very close to you, would you value his opinion more than a guy you just met at your son's Little League game?

This is a question of familiarity for most folks.

Has anyone else here seen the CNN interviews with Ron Paul? He puts this election craziness more in perspective. All this ballyhooing about Clinton v. Obama who
can win against big bad McCain. We forget Ron Paul is still running,
as far as his constituents are concerned. We forget there is great
dissention within the Republican party. Most Republicans no longer
like they way the country is going either.

Shuuuuuuuuuuuuh, Libramoon. Don't tell them. They will find out on November 6th. LOL. They have no idea they have a far more potent Nader. The guy won't say a word, yet is going to get a ton of votes.

Bret, from what I've heard, McCain and Hagee and Parsley go farther back in time than what you are talking about. I don't think what you have said is a fair comparison. I also think that Obama has made it VERY clear now that he doesn't want to have anything to do with Wright and that he does not agree with the controversial things that he has said. McCain, on the other hand, has not discussed Hagee or Parsley's very controversial comments. He has only said that the one comment by Hagee is "nonsense". What does that mean? McCain has said that he is HONORED to be endorsed and supported by both Hagee and Parsley. He even flew out to Hagee's church to receive his endorsement. Does that sound like someone he met at his "son's Little League game?" Nice try though...

Libramoon, I don't agree with Ron Paul's belief that we should do away with government--the IRS, Dept. of Education, Social Security; and he does not belief in universal healthcare or abortion. Doing away with the government is not the solution. Better government is the solution.

I think you overlook some MAJOR things. McCain didn't sit in Hagee's church for 20 years and claim him as his mentor. Anyone who has friends that they agree with on every issue is living in lala land. The relationship is the key. Hagee has made stupid statements against the Catholic Church, but I do recall Pope Benedict saying anyone who was not Catholic was going to hell, which to me is on the stupid side too. Wright j thinks anyone who is white is the devil and oppressive of minorities. So what you have is three people who all need to go back to the source and see what He says, really, and I think they would be surprised that God is not taking kindly to any of them on those issues.

Not being a Christian - I have to say that ALL of the pastors and ministers you talked about make the Christian religion look rather poor. I'm not sure if these guys represent the mainstream, but I'm sure that they are as nutty as they come.

And, Delores, you are totally correct about the Pope. He has made some rather crazy statements himself. They defy logic.

I think that many ministers out there are not in touch with reality.

Rev Wright has given expression to some hard truths that few Americans (unless you happen to be a black American) can face or want to face. Stupid, or insane, he is not. A megalomanic, most likely. But Hagee's mind is so twisted, his apocalyptic vision so scary, to think a presidential candidate would not want to distance himself from that gives you some indication of McCain's beliefs, which seem to be just more of what we've had for the past 7 + years, and how well has THAT turned out?

Jim, yes I know that Hillary said if Iran attacked Israel she would annihilate Iran. Nice talk. This is the reason that I don't believe she will ever bring our troops home from the Middle East, whatever she says.

But if the Super delegates give the nomination to Hillary, who the heck are those of us who want peace supposed to vote for? I think I will write in Dennis Kucinich, who was my candidate in the first place. We should all write in whoever we think is the best candidate.

Oh wait, that might cause a lack of majority for anyone and throw it to Bush's Supreme Court lackies. Wow, it's already too late, isn't it? Some choices we all have.

Carla -

In an attempt to clarify yet further, allow me to ask you another more direct pair of questions :

1) How long has Obama sat in the pews of Jeremiah Wright's church?
2) Has McCain EVER sat in the pews of Hagee's or Parsley's church as a parishioner?

Brett,
Thats a good point but even goes further. Neither Hagee or Parsley worked for McCain's campaing that I know off. They did not have a close personal relationship with McCain. JW married the Obama's, he babtised his children...

There is a huge difference between financial supporter and spiritual leader.

Another thing...the issue with JW would have blown over by now. I for one liked how Obama handled the situation but the fact that it is still going is JW fault and no one else.

McCain did not sit in Hagee's church assumes that he passively received the endorsement. If he did that defense would fly. But he did not. He sought out the endorsement. Obama was asked by Clinton to Reject Louis Farakhan after his endorsement that he did not seek, prompting the famous "I denounce and reject"

McCain sought the endorsement of this guy after he made the "whore" remarks. That's a problem.

Bret, where do you draw the line?
I don't sit in your church but I want your endorsement (McCain)?

I sat in your church but I don't want your endorsement (Obama)?

What is your criteria that allows you to deem one case acceptable and the other not?

Alan,

McCain should have denounced Hagee but if you require all candidates to denounce all supporters that do screwy things then you would be spending your entire campaign denouncing people.

Obama still has not denounced Tony Resco and the list of fellons supporting clinton is just too large to list

Victor, McCain flew across the country to sit in the front pew of Hagee's church to receive his endorsement like it was a blessing from the pope. He said how "proud" and "honored" he was to receive the endorsement of such a great man. Come on! He is not just a "supporter" of McCain.

And Cynthia, I totally agree with you. His apocalyptic views are scarey and twisted.

And Obama's "like a father to me" Wright gave Farrakhan a "man of the year award". And Obama's party at the home of "william Ayers", the terrorist, doesn't say much for the character of the would be president.

I think Carla answered this Victor. The guy is a political figure. Just imagine Obama taking a day off from the campaign trail to go visit Louis Farakhan to accept an endorsement.

Come on people, this is a double standard.

Don B., for the record he said like "family to me."

Carla, i am not arguing that it wasn't a mistake for McCain to be "proud" of the endorsement. All I am saying that there is a difference in trusting JW enough for him to serve on your staff and getting an endorsement...even IF you fly across country. McCain should have done his homework better but this like the JW is a non story and only good for blogs. The question is how the candidates respond to this and that's what they are being judged for.

But I do find it strange that you as a minister judge someone heart. Thought they teach that the first week in seminary. Who are we to judge his heart? Are we not supposed to look for actions and how this fits with the rest of his life?

Hagee's a total red herring. First of all, differences with the Catholic church is what brought about the Protestant movement, and it is a difference that has been accepted by both beliefs, to "agree to disagree." Some, like Hagee, still speak out about those differences. Anyway, if McCain reached out to him, it was because he is an influential player in the politics of his locality. No one believes that McCain ever heard of Hagee before this endorsement, do they?

To be honest, I don't know. This is all educated speculation. Fun post, Carla! Thanks!

I don't know who's a whore? There are so many from which to chose.

I'm really sick of this subject and wish we could move on to the real issues. All this stuff is past, over, and not pertinant to our real problems. Let's talk about the day after tomorrow instead.

Jeff I agree with you their all a little off kilter.
Not all are like that, but I think that there is no place for church in the state. I think that yes a presons moriles need t be quistion when they are running to be in the preasidental office. From what Carla has writen I can say that this Revrends endossment was a bad idea in the long run if MaCain doesn't aggree with him. And its his campainI not voting for him so let him fuddle-up his campain if he wants to it's just ammunition for the demacradic canidate anyway.

It is an issue to me, one of judgment and honesty. Do I approve of either of these preachers? No, but I dislike how first Obama calls this man his "spiritual mentor", then infers that he is an old fool from a previous generation and finally he throws him under bus. Obama bothers me because he hides from the truth. Why not say upfront I was at the church, I like the man, but sometimes he gets a little to off the subject for me. NO, he says he spent 20 years in the church and never knew Wright was like this? Yet he then lets little remarks slide like calling his grandmother "a typical white person" and saying rural hardworking American are "clinging to religion and guns." He sounds a lot like Rev. Wright to me. Obama is a liar as far as I can tell and his Rev. Wright is right! He will say and do anything to get elected. At least MCain stands up a like man and publicly acknowledges his friendship with Hagee. He did not say he agrees with him on every subject and he did not say he accepts his philosophy, and he does not hide from his past. I also agree with the comment about people rioting in the streets. I am dismayed at the great uniter when his Black followers say there will be riots in the streets if he doesn't win. Sounds like a threat to white people. Are women threatening to riot in the streets if Senator Clinton doesn't win? Can we say that the DNC's decision to not count Florida nad Michigan made it an unfair primary season?

Great discussion, folks.

And Victor, thank you for the reminder. I do not judge people, but only comment on their behavior and the words that they speak. (By their fruits they shall be known.) No one is inherently bad. People make poor choices. Those who make poor decisions and have the power to affect the most people's lives, should be addressed. Those who stand by and say nothing, as in Nazi Germany, are those that I have the least respect for. That does not mean that I do not see them as a brother or sister in spirit. We all have to be responsible for our choices.

Rev. Wright has done some very good things for the black community and his church. He has made some comments which are devisive and inflammatory. I understand his anger but he is not helping to heal the wounds of the past, but merely stirring the pot of hatred.

Hagee and Parsley, on the other hand, have not experienced the racial prejudice that Wright has. And yet, they are also divisive and inflamatory in their tirades against Catholics, gays, feminists, abortionists, Jews, and the A.C.L.U. lawyers. In other words, their hatred is more widespread. What is it based on? Not the Bible that's for sure. Not the teachings of Jesus.

As far as riots in the streets...I think there will be riots in the streets if a Democrat doesn't win. Why? Because every poll that has been done shows that more people prefer a Democrat as president (regardless of who it is) than a Republican. I know a lot of people that feel the election was stolen back in 2000 by the Republicans. If it happens again, I think people will respond.

This man is evil incarnate.

Yep, and he should have been put out of Trinity Church years ago.

Bret, where do you draw the line?

Wright before "God Damn America", but Wright after "the CIA created AIDS to kill off the black population". Yep, Wright about there.

I don't sit in your church but I want your endorsement (McCain)?

It's an endorsement, Alan. Its not like Hagee married McCain and his wife, baptized their daughters, or invented the title to one of his books............sheeeeshh.

I sat in your church but I don't want your endorsement (Obama)?

I think you meant to say "I sat in your church for 20 years and yet I never once heard you say those horrible words that I saw on Fox News".......lol. Wright's endorsement of Obama was never in question................although now it is.

What is your criteria that allows you to deem one case acceptable and the other not?

When the recipient of the endorsement hears objectionable things, and does nothing to stop them, for 20 years. The true hypocrisy, however, is when you hear what Wright says, then proclaim yourself a "Uniter", knowing full well that with those words ringing in your ears, you know without a doubt that you can't unite the country in any meaningful way.

But I guess that's just the way Left Wing politics go these days..............

So Bret, can you say that you've been happy with the right-wing Bush administration and what they've done to our country in the last eight years?

Carla -

Rejoice! Mr. Bush is only a part-time Conservative, and therefore his mistakes are usually when he does something non-Conservative..............which gives Libs ammunition to hate him :

1) tax cuts - good
2) Immigration policy - bad
3) Recovery from Clinton Dot Com bust - good
4) banned partial birth abortions - good
5) Invading Iraq - good
6) Not finding WMDs - bad
7) Finding Saddam - good
8) Not finding bin-Laden - bad
9) The Surge - good
10) Afghanistan poppy production - bad

Those are just my top ten, but overall I give Mr. Bush a lot of credit. Most of these things were pretty difficult.

1. You mean THOSE tax cuts that have put our entire economy on the brink of collapse, those tax cuts that have driven the dollar into the toilet because we are carrying a deficit that is so huge or great grand children will still be looking at ways to pay it off????

2. You mean an immigration policy that recognized the reality of how our labor policy ACTUALLY functions in this country, an immigration policy that was one of the few rational ideas bush ever had???

3. REALLY BRET?? Recovery??? from The "Clinton Dot Com bust??? You have got to be kidding. Alzheimers has set in on you brother bret.

4. Abortions bret??? When was the last time you were ever at risk of bearing a horribly deformed child whose birth might kill you?? If you are really a woman, disguised as "bret" then maybe you have a right to an opinion on this one.

5. Yeah Right bret, ask the families of the 4,080 troops who died or the families of the many innocent thousands of Iraqi's whose culture we destroyed to "save" them... ask them bret how good they feel about Iraq.

6. A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie, but since that is all this administration does well it's no surprise.

7. Ask those Iraqi's who are alive today what they would prefer if that could turn the clock back. You're not condemend to live in the hell hole we have turned Iraq into. Iraqi's are now WISHING that Saddam was back and we were gone.

8. DUH....

9. Yeah that surge that has been led to more deaths, more rocket attacks in Iraq, especially in the "Green Zone" in recent weeks than before, that great surge that will now require us to have troops there FOREVER...what a marvelous success that was.

10. What would you grow in a drought ridden, barren country if you had a family, no job, and the only possibility of staying alive was to cooperate with the local drug lord since we great American invaders have not been able to secure the country to grow wheat (That's what they used to grow a lot of)??? Tell me bret boy, try walking in another mans shoes and tell me what it feels like....

Cynthia -

"You mean THOSE tax cuts that have put our entire economy on the brink of collapse"

No, I mean the tax cuts that have returned money to the people who actually PAY the taxes in this country.............The Rich.

"You mean an immigration policy that recognized the reality of how our labor policy ACTUALLY functions in this country, an immigration policy that was one of the few rational ideas bush ever had?"

No, I mean the Amnesty policy that was soundly defeated by a bipartisan majority.

"REALLY BRET?? Recovery??? from The "Clinton Dot Com bust??? You have got to be kidding. Alzheimers has set in on you brother bret."

Yep, really. You need to go check the facts, Cynthia. The Dow was in the 7000 range after the Dot Com Bust. Today its at 13,000.

"Yeah Right bret, ask the families of the 4,080 troops who died or the families of the many innocent thousands of Iraqi's whose culture we destroyed to "save" them... ask them bret how good they feel about Iraq."

I volunteer at a VA hospital here in Chicago and I ask them all the time. Soldiers just don't seem to say what you're saying, Cynthia. They generally feel positive about the mission - even today.
If the Iraqi government wants us gone, we'll pack up and leave..............but we both know that isn't the case now, don't we?

"A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie, but since that is all this administration does well it's no surprise."

So then if that's true, then why would our legislators not have voted down Public Law #107-243? I mean, they had like 6 months to argue about it in Congress, and dissect the data. Are you saying ALL of them were tricked? LOL, come on Cynthia. Put down the Kool-Aid and think about that for a second...........

"Iraqi's are now WISHING that Saddam was back and we were gone."

I think not. With Baghdad returning to some form of normality, most of the residents there are willing to put up with our presence there in exchange for the relative peace they've acquired. Our troops in Baghdad are bored now.............and that's a good sign!

"Yeah that surge that has been led to more deaths, more rocket attacks in Iraq, especially in the "Green Zone" in recent weeks than before, that great surge that will now require us to have troops there FOREVER...what a marvelous success that was."

Although sensationalized in the media, that is not the norm these days. ALL the indicators point to a more normalized situation there, with a lot less violence than say, in 2006. The violence is way down.
Once again, a good thing!

"What would you grow in a drought ridden, barren country if you had a family, no job, and the only possibility of staying alive was to cooperate with the local drug lord"

Personally, knowing that my "crop" was fueling drug addicts all over the world, I'd move. I'd do anything NOT to be a drug dealer. And the farmers growing this stuff know exactly what they're growing.

Oooops, sorry, I missed one.

Abortions.
They're evil. Period.
Mr. Bush took one more giant step to the rescinding of Roe vs. Wade.

Don't worry, now its not a question of "if", its a question of "when".

Proof? Look at the composition of the Supreme Court.

Michelle...really.... "Carla the difference is clearly black and white. Nobody is scared that Hagee or Parsley followers are going to riot in the streets; lots of folks are concerned that Wight's followers might be easily provolked into burning America's cities."

If Wright has been preaching the same ole crap for all these years and and failed to provoke a riot in the streets and a burning of America's cities...how easily could it be to provoke his congregation to the point of violence? Your bigotry out weights your sensibility.

The common denominator in this conflict of finger pointing vs rational discussion is religion....the bastardization of religion. Those who preach hate and bigotry are usually on the receiving end of the same.

I'm with Ruth MacGill....our time could be better spent with constructive rather than destructive discourse. Those who dwell on the atrocities of the past are frequently afraid to face the challenges of the future.

While these candidate's associations...both actual and perceived are an important factor on which to consider the future performance of those candidates....it is important to not get lost in the inflammatory rhetoric.

Wow. These postings really illuminate the divisive views on the current controversy! The biggest difference I can see between Wright and the other "spiritual" leaders you've discussed is HISTORY. Aside from Wright's insinuations about our government and AIDS, his liberation theology is based soundly on a well-documented history of black oppression. On what do the far right religious zealots base their anti-gay, female-oppressing theologies? These are the people who frighten me. Why are we so afraid to face up to the truth of what has been done to people of color all over the world in the name of power and politics -- and, yes, sometimes in the name of God?

Let's see...Wright preaches a hatred that was born in riots that burned our cities, and tore our nation apart. Hagee criticizes Catholics as anti-Semetic, and called Katrina an act of God. Who is more closely associated with "violence in the streets," Michael?

As the riots of the '60's were a backlash against actual White oppression, they were understandable, but still deserved condemnation. Threats of violence at the convention, because a Black candidate loses the nomination? I'd say the Black community has come a long way, but needs to stop using the old "protest" model. Leave that to Rev. Al Sharpton, and keep it out of presidential politics. Notice that Rev. Al wasn't leading any protests when he ran for president. His whole campaign was the protest.

This is why Wright has become such a distraction, as opposed to Hagee. There is a history of radicalism behind his words, which finds echoes in many Black politicians' lips. Obama has never used that kind of rhetoric, to his credit. He is dealing with the question of how long he knew about these views, and why did he tolerate them, and excuse them, in his Philadelphia speech.

McCain should have to answer the same questions about Hagee, and explain why he sought Hagee's endorsement. If he has done this in some venue already, he needs to do it in a larger one. I guarantee O'Reilly will ask him about Hagee on his upcoming Factor interview. Let's see how that goes.

I do not believe that O'Reilly will address this with McCain. He is biased on the side of Republicans. Why would he want to call attention to this embarrassment?

On the other hand, I heard a statistic yesterday that 50% of both Republicans and Democrats feel that Wright is a non-issue at this time. People are moving on, as they should, and focusing on the real issues.

Dear Carla,

Thank you for posting this and for backing up your statements with links. It would make it difficult for "the other side" to dismiss your article as a mere opinion piece. I re-read your profile. We have so much in common! I am so delighted to meet you and have you in my network of gather friends.

In Love,
Maya

Thanks, Maya. The feeling is mutual.

Carla, I hope you watched McCain on O'Reilly. He did indeed ask McCain about Hagee. O'Reilly is not biased for the Republicans, but he didn't press too hard, just as he didn't press Hillary to hard on every issue. I think it's called "fair and balanced."

Christopher, I'm glad he asked him. Did he ask about Parsley? I don't care for O'Reilly. He doesn't allow people to talk, constantly interrupts. I think he likes hearing himself talk more than anything.

Carla -

O'Reilly had a fantastic segment where he grilled McCain about "all religious zealotry", and mentioned Hagee and Parsley by name. McCain's answer was one of the best I've ever heard. O'Reilly asked the question, then let McCain speak. He even spent a little time talking about the falseness of the Wright controversy. McCain scored HUGE points.

If only Obama had done the same. But he didn't.

O'Reilly actually let someone speak? What a concept for him! But he always lets the Republicans speak. As long as he knows they will parrot his beliefs back to him and not contradict him. And who did McCain score points with?

Get used to it, Bret, Obama will be elected by a landslide (unless the Republicans steal the election again in their corrupt fashion). The king of conservatives said that--Rupert Murdoch--the owner of Fox. That must have been difficult for O'Reilly to swallow.