The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
Ilan Pappe is an Israeli historian and senior lecturer at Haifa University. He's also Academic Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva and Chair of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies. Pappe is an expert on Israel and Zionism and the Palestinians' Right of Return to their homeland, is considered "an honourable academic with integrity and conscience," and is a member of the Advisory Board of the Council for Palestinian Restitution and Repatriation (CPRR), an organization declaring that "every Palestinian has a legitimate, individual right to return to his or her original home and to absolute restitution of his or her property."
Pappe is also one of Israel's "new historians" whose scholarship and writings are based on access to material now available from British Mandate period and Israeli archives that provide the most accurate and authentic documented history of Israel before and after it became a state and which now serve to debunk the myths about the years leading up to the Jewish State's founding and those following it to this day.
Pappe has also authored, contributed to or edited nine books. His latest is the one this review covers in detail so readers will know about its powerful and shocking content, unknown to most in the West and in Israel, that hopefully will arouse them enough to get the book and learn in full detail what Pappe documented. He proves from official records how the Israeli state came into being with blood on its hands from lands forcibly seized from its Palestinian inhabitants who'd lived on it for hundreds of years previously. Since the 1940s, they were ethnically cleansed and slaughtered without mercy so their homeland would become one for Jews alone.
The shameful result is that Palestinians then and today have almost no rights including being able to live in peace and security on their own land in their own state that no longer exists. Survivors then and their offspring either live in Israel as unwanted Arab citizens with few rights or in the Occupied Palestinians Territories (OPT) where their lives are suspended in limbo in an occupied country in which they're subjected to daily institutionalized and codified racism and persecution. They have no power over their daily lives and live in a constant state of fear with good reason. They face economic strangulation; collective punishment for any reason; loss of free movement; enclosures by separation walls, electric fences and border closings; regular curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, loss of their homes by bulldozings and crops and orchards by wanton destruction and seizure; arrest without cause, and routine subjection to torture while in custody.
They're targeted for extra-judicial assassination and indiscriminate killing; taxed punitively and denied basic services essential to life and well-being including health care, education, employment and even enough food and water at the whim of Israeli authorities in a deliberate effort to destroy their will to resist and eliminate those who won't by expulsion or extermination. Palestinians have no power to end these appalling abuses and crimes against humanity or receive any redress for them in Israeli, the West or through the International Criminal Court Israel ignores when it rules against its interests.
How can they as Muslims in a racist Jewish state where Israelis oppressive them with impunity, the US goes along with huge financing and supplying of the most modern and destructive weapons of war, and the West and most Arab states are indifferent preferring to ally with Israel and the US for benefits received while writing off Palestinians as a small price worth paying. It created state of appalling human misery and desperation severely aggravated by crushing economic sanctions for the past year imposed for the first time ever on an occupied people. They're responsible for poverty and unemployment levels of 80% or more and increasing instances of starvation and unreported deaths from all causes because Israel controls everything and everyone allowed in and out of the territories. Those inside them suffer painfully as a result. Others with power to help, don't care and do nothing.
Pappe documents how it all began in 12 chapters with a short epilogue plus 18 graphic pictures needing no explanation. He calls the book his "J'Accuse against the politicians who devised the plan and the generals who carried out the ethnic cleansing" naming the guilty, the villages and urban areas destroyed, and the cruelest crimes committed against defenseless people only wanting to live in peace on their own land and were willing to do it with Jews as neighbors but not as overlords or oppressors.
This review is lengthy so readers will know in detail what Israeli authorities successfully suppressed for decades. Pappe courageously revealed it in a book begging to be read and discussed by all people of conscience and good faith. They need to take the lead building a groundswell consensus to stand up to this long-festering injustice against defenseless people fighting for their rights and existence against overwhelming odds.
http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2007/02/review-of-ethnic-cleansing-of.html
The future of Jews and Arabs depends on finding an equitable solution to their unresolved problems and issues and avoiding further escalation that threatens to engulf the whole region in raging conflict if extremists in Israel and Washington get their way and extend the Iraq war to Iran and Syria. Kuwait-based Arab Times Editor-in-chief Ahmed al-Jarallah cites what he calls a reliable source saying a military strike against Iranian oil and nuclear facilities is planned before April to be launched from warships in the Persian Gulf that grow in number and readiness.
He may be right based on former Russian Black Sea Fleet commander Admiral Eduard Baltin's judgment about US activity in the Gulf. Currently, US nuclear submarines are maintaining a vigil there and Admiral Baltin told Interfax News: "The presence of US nuclear submarines in the Persian Gulf region means that the Pentagon has not abandoned plans for surprise strikes against nuclear targets in Iran. With this aim a group of multi-purpose submarines ready to accomplish the task is located in the area." Admiral Baltin added the presence of these submarines indicates the Pentagon wants to control navigation in the Gulf and conduct strikes against Iranian targets.
One other report adds still more credibility to the current danger of a wider regional war. It comes from former US State Department Middle East intelligence analyst Wayne White who said: "I've seen some of the planning....You're not talking about a surgical strike. You're talking about a war against Iran. We're talking about clearing a path of targets" against the Iranian Air Force, Kilo submarines, anti-ship missiles and even ballistic missile capability that could target commerce and US warships in the Gulf as well as the country's nuclear infrastructure.
More pressure still is coming from Israeli officials calling Iran's nuclear program an "existential threat" and Israeli opposition leader and former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu whose rhetoric makes him sound like he's criminally insane. On January 21, he addressed a security conference in Herzliya stoking the flames of war by calling the Iranian government a "genocidal regime" and adding "Either it will stop the nuclear programme without the need for a military operation, or it could prepare for it....who will lead the charge if not us. No one will come defend the Jews if they do not defend themselves." Also at the conference, US Under-Secretary Nicholas Burns spoke hawkishly saying "There is no doubt Iran is seeking nuclear military weapons (and) the policy of the United States is that we cannot allow Iran to become a nuclear weapons state....Iran has refused to back down in its attempt to destabilize the region....We have an absolute right to defend our soldiers."
If the US and/or Israel attack Iran, all bets are off, and Palestinians already under an Israeli siege will suffer even more. It means cooler heads on both sides must denounce this kind of talk and find a way to avoid a wider war and bring the present conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine to an end. It won't be easy at a perilous time looking like conflict escalation is planned, not its resolution with the potential fallout from it too horrendous to allow for all parties in the region, but especially for those suffering under occupation.
Now there's the further threat of one Palestinian faction facing off against the other. On one side is the besieged Hamas-led government already in tatters from months of harsh sanctions and daily Israeli assaults. On the other are corrupted Fatah forces loyal to PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas acting as a quisling proxy comprador enforcer for Israeli and US imperial interests for everything he stands to gain selling out his people for crumbs handed him and his cronies. They're being armed to the teeth to do it, and George Bush announced he's helping further by transferring $86 million to Abbas while starving Hamas and most Palestinians. It's taken the lives of dozens of Palestinians in recent days. They're in the middle having no dog in this fight except their oppressive occupier they want expelled.
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Comments: 140
1. Write and Illustrate an article about the human race's tendency to commit genocidal holocausts every so often throughout its history. Humanity should be compared with the other race of beings which does the same thing: Ants.
It should be noted here that Israel and other vengeance-oriented holocaustic societies tend to retell and revivify their own victimhood while downplaying the humanity of both their perpetrators and victims.
2. Another article concerning the relationship if vengeance/holocaust societies with the planet Mars would be most valuable - told from the viewpoint of an astrological psychologist and/or social worker.
3. A brief study of the nature of rape and mass-murder in ancient and modern warmongerings around the planet would make a good text for those societies planning to continue this sort of behaviour into the future. There is at least one such study, written from the woman's point of view, currently available: MEN, WOMEN, AND RAPE ( I forget the author - Alice..... I'll have to get back on that).
AGAINST OUR WILL: MEN, WOMEN, AND RAPE - by Susan Brownmiller.
I read this book quite a few years ago. Like HIROSHIMA, it blew my doors off.
Forget the spin on "surgical strike" and "smart bomb" etc. Actually, the "thrust" of invasive force[s] - whatever the implement - is still some form of rape - whether it be of children, women, or land.
This deal's all about forcibly entering a person, place, or culture and possessing it and forcing it to reproduce you.
When and if they ever start treating the Palestinians as equals, instead of like animals, I believe they will achieve the security and peace that they claim to seek.
This is very interesting....thanks...
The rape of Iraq. I still have difficulty processing that my country [me?] did what it did. I tend to numb myself [and isn't that how it happened?] but then I read or hear or see something that cannot be shunted aside -- Clarke's Persian Letter for example, or Condaleezza Rice's testimony to the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Fascinating historical detail. I find it ironic that there is such fierce debate around denial of the halocaust, right alongside equally fierce denial of the tragedy of Palestine.
Details or no, I believe the world "knows" just as the world "knew" about what was happening in Germany, even if the details were not known. The world sees the Sudan and other crises and denies. What Jerry K. calls INtuition is denied in the face of layer upon layer of selective and specious "fact" and gross, undeniable, inhumanity.
The world is telling us about Bush's rogue behavior and escalation in the middle east and other areas on Rice's hit list, yet we deny.
Interestingly, my mother-in-law, who passed away tragically over 15 years ago, told me this way back in the early 80's, when I began to condemn Arab terrorist tactics. I was floored at what she told me. I had no idea, and neither does the rest of America, unfortunately. It's critically important that this information be distributed to all.
"When Zionism emerged in the late 1800s, it had two goals: First, find safe haven for Jews. Second, redefine Judaism as a national movement, not just a religion. These two noble ideas became a crime against humanity because they could only be implemented by dispossessing Palestinians."
Some aren't. Some believe that the Israeli's have a right to their own homeland. After all there are 22 other arab countries, including one, Jordan, where the majority of people are Palestinians...
http://medici.gather.com/fileServer/MzA5NjIyNDc0NDAwNzg5NSBmdWxsIGltYWdlL2pwZWcgMTE3MTA1NTY0MDgxNg==
He's what we call a self hating Jew. Credible? Absolutly not. See Charles N. quote above.
I have read Pappe's books and work of several of his former students. Ilan Pappe's academic work , including his teaching at university in Israel, has made a significant contribution to our understanding of Israel's history. His dedication to his personal values have inspired his work, without compromising the integrity of his scholarship.
Most of the myths about Israel's history were created by one faction of the Zionists for political, nationalistic reasons, resembling the European fascist ideas of the 1930's
Menachim Begin was the leader of the young Zionist Fascists in Italy who supported Mussolini. To distinguish themselves from the other fascist groups in Italy , Begin's wore brown shirts, like the Hitler youth, instead of the black ones the others did. When he emigrated to Palestine he became a leader in terrorist activities against the British, as a member of one Zionist faction that later became the dominant political one in Israel. As Prime Minister, many years later, he signed the peace agreement with Egypt's Anwar Sadat, thanks in large part to the United States' active diplomacy.
The detailed diaries of Moshe Sharett, Israel's first foreign minister and then successor to " Founding Father" Ben Gurion as Prime Minister, provided a day-to-day account of the activities of this faction from the 1930's into the 1950's. Sharett worked closely with many of individuals in this group who later became Prime Ministers, including Ariel Sharon. Their policies drove the manufacture of the many myths that have become the false historical account of Israel's history that most Americans, and many Israelis, think is factual.
Pappe's research into the documents recently made available has helped to reveal the real history.
The sharp divisions among the views of different factions of Zionist Jews that pertained since before World War I have persisted until today , and are reflected in the divisions of current political opinion in Israeli society.
Winston Churchill, whose views of the Arabs as "barbarians" were not dissimilar from Ben Gurion's and his faction of Zionists, was also opposed to establishment of a homeland for the Jews in Palestine. His interests were in preserving the British Empire, of course. As late as 1944, he worked to have a homeland for Jews be created in Uganda rather than Palestine. "We should have chosen Uganda," is a joke I have heard Israelis tell today.
Seventy years ago, in 1937, Churchill, speculating on the future of a Jewish state in Palestine (which he did not undersand well) wrote presciently in an essay:
"A wealthy, crowded, progressive Jewish state lies in the plains and on the sea coast of Palestine. Around it, in the hills and the uplands, stretching far and wide into the illimitable deserts, the warlike Arabs of Syria of Transjordania, of Arabia, backed by the armed forces of Iraq, offer the ceaseless menace of war. To maintain itself the Jewish state will have to be armed to the teeth and must bring in every able-bodied man to strengthen its army. But how long will this process be allowed to continue by the great Arab populations in Iraq and Palestine? Can it be expected that the Arabs would stand by impassively and watch the building up, with Jewish world capital and resources, of a Jewish army, equipped with the most deadly weapons of war until it was strong enough not to be afraid of them? And if ever the Jewish army reached that point, who can be sure,cramped within their narrow limits, they would not plunge out into the new undeveloped lands that lay around them?"
It is worth adding that Churchill played a significant part in the disastrous British military conflict in Iraq after World War I. At the end of his life he wrote that his greatest failure (and there were several failures that others have called more serious ones ) was Iraq.
They elect Hamas a terrorist band of murderers.
Now they are killing each other as a prelude to murdering more Jews.
This whole "Palestine" thing is a rouse. Israel has been too nice to them. To prove that look at every war in the world today, and you will find muslims involved in 95% of them. And look at the numbers:
Iran v Iraq : millions died
Iraq muslims killing muslims
Darfur 400000 dead, murdered by muslims
Sudan hundreds of thousand dead, mostly muslims from north fighting tribal africans
Phillipines, muslims murdering christians
Pakistan muslims murdering Hindu Indians
Muslims in afghanistan murdering each other etc...
Muslims murdering americans on 9-11
muslim murdering RFK
muslims murderong christians and each other in lebanon
muslims murdering africans in nigeria
etc.. eetc.. stc..
The same villagers we're talking about here. One of the speakers was a S. African woman who now teaches in the US - on the West Coast, I think - who had been through the Apartheid struggles.
Imagine! The workshop was geared to give hope and renewed courage and more understanding - and more feeling of oneness with others around the world who've been through the same things they're going through now - and made it through to freedom.
The best thing about it is, the teaching of win/win communication and action. YES.
Go live in any Islamist land you want. Come back and tell us all about it, if you are still alive.
Martin - I'm with David: "Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear NO evil."
I refuse to fear evil because fearing it magnifies and multiplies it.
Instead, with Jesus, I've learned how to use specific vibrations of Love in order to transform it into something useful.
If I were a "Hitler-appeaser," Martin, I'd be sucking up to you. But you see I'm not. I'm very sorry for your KKK attitude towards your brothers and sisters in the Middle East.
Those who are used to the hell-cycle ways of being, have grown comfortable in their personal hells of hatred and judgementalism and separativism. They continually create more hell-space for themselves and those around them by mis-using the Power of the Word, just exactly as Hitler did: ranting and raving the same hatreds over and over. Hell-creating words and tones.
But the hell-cycle is drawing to a close. We have just a few more years of it, and the coming paradigmn, the Age of Peace, empowers Peacemakers rathers than hell-mongers. What a shock for those who keep scapegoating and wreaking vengeance. Whole new way of being.
Change - Earth & Humanity - changing. Wave upon wave of hearts and minds, changing.
You understand and express well how those who are consumed with self-hate blame others for their plight. The Commedia Divina of Dante describes well the states of those who have condemned themselves to suffer in darkness of mental delusion,desperation and denial.
I hate Islam because the Quran espouses racism and murder, hundreds of millions of Muslims believe that drivel literally, and tens of millions of Muslims are willing to carry out their plan for world domination and.or destruction.
But carolion, don't worry, Osama Bin laden said he is sorry and he will never do it again.
Carter must be judged by the company that he keeps and by the company that keeps him.
He has done more to damage the Jewish community in American than any public figure since Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford. He will be remembered, along with them, as enemies of the Jewish people and of truth. He will also be remembered by history as a friend of America's tyrannical enemies, having supported virtually every left-wing tyranny in the world, from North Korea to Cuba to Syria. What a legacy! An enemy of the most persecuted minority in history; a friend of tyranny; and ultimately an enemy of the nation that trusted him with its presidency. All for a pot of dirty money.
Nice to hear some sense here. Those who preach about the horrors of hatred and terrorism seem to understand it all to well. Nor, do they seem to have the remotest inkling they become what they preach.
Fresh air is good.
Didn't the religion of peace murder 1.5 million Armenian civilians ? Didn't the Ottoman Turks claim to be fighting as Muslims for Islam ? Weren't the Armenians Christians ?
Now if some rag tag Muslim turks with rifles can murder 1.5 million Armenian Christians, imagine what can be done today with nuclear weapons ?
Ya gotta love Islam, truly a religion of peace, and their defenders, not an ounce of hypocrisy among them.
That is the reality of the world today. That is the legacy of Dhimmi Carter. Carter's Jew hating, though great, pales in comparison.
Thats why the Taliban form of Islamist terrorists, as opposed to say the Hamas brand of Islamist terrorists, or the Fatah brand of Islamist terrorists, or the Hezbollah brand of Islamic terrorists, blew up statues of peaceful Buddah in Afghanistan.
And those are just the facts ma'am.
The tragedy of the Holocaust is not the subject of the article . Israel's government has long used the Holocaust as a means to justify its policies and actions in Palestine and the region - both to Jews and the world.
Ben Gurion, Israel's "Founding Father," spoke frankly of the Holocaust:
"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
Does Israel have a "right to exist"?
The Palestinians have a "moral right." The Holocaust was not "right," any more than was Israel's premeditated driving them from their homes by force and preventing their return is acceptable as "right."
Israel's demand that others recognize its "right to exist" - not it's existence as a state be recognized, which might lead to a peaceful resolution of the situation in Palestine - is unacceptable by any ethical standard. This is like demanding that the Holocaust be accepted as "morally right."
The 1948 war was planned and and provoked by Israel to gain more territory than the U.N. had allotted for the Jewish state and to expel more Palestinian Arabs.Before the May 15 invasion by Arab armies, Jewish forces had succeeded in expelling some 300,000 Palestinians from their homes,yet another 400,000 Palestinians remained in areas that the Jews wanted to take. The Ben-Gurion leadership needed a war and it was confident it would be easy to win. His group's policy in Palestine had been in practice for many years before Israel became a state. This policy has persisted in regard to other Arab lands and in regard to the Palestinians : maintain a perpetual war situation by any means, including terrorism, gain land in short wars where success is sure and expel Arabs or establish puppet rulers. Never seek peace in good faith.
Many Israelis - some who are philosophically Zionists , including those who emigrated to Palestine since the 1920's - have always opposed this policy.
Name some in the Islamic world ?
Search real hard.
We don't see Japanese terrorists murdering Americans, like the Islamists. We don't see Native Americans murdering innocent people like the Islamists do, do we ? They all have grievances, but they have moved forward, unlike the Islamists.
We donl't see Hindus murdering British do we ?
We don't see israelis murdering Germans do we ?
Nah the only bloodthirsty animals are the Islamists. if ya ain't a Muslim, you are either a Dhimmi, or you are dead. Now I wish such a society on all of the Palestinian and Carter supporters, including those on this board, thats justice.
We can call that part of the world midevil world, where people can see what it was like to live in the seventh century. Great for a short vacation.
By the way how many people were murdered by the religion of peace today ? Today alone, in the thousands including Iraq, Darfur, dozens in Lebanon, Sudan, Niger, etc...
But the hundreds of thousands murdered in Africa by Islam in the last few years no one cares about because they were only black. "White" Palestinians are much more important. Their blood bleeds far redder than just an African.
Fallaci continued posing indignant questions about the treatment of women in the new Islamic state. Why, she asked, did Khomeini compel women to "hide themselves, all bundled up," when they had proved their equal stature by helping to bring about the Islamic revolution? Khomeini replied that the women who "contributed to the revolution were, and are, women with the Islamic dress"; they weren't women like Fallaci, who "go around all uncovered, dragging behind them a tail of men." A few minutes later, Fallaci asked a more insolent question: "How do you swim in a chador?" Khomeini snapped, "Our customs are none of your business. If you do not like Islamic dress you are not obliged to wear it. Because Islamic dress is for good and proper young women." Fallaci saw an opening, and charged in. "That's very kind of you, Imam. And since you said so, I'm going to take off this stupid, medieval rag right now." She yanked off her chador.
All Pal supporters and carter supporters, I hope ya don't go out in public without your chador. Is that a form of apartheid dress ? Or don't women count, I guess they don't.
Islam is not politically right or left, its backwards
You write:
"We don't see Japanese terrorists murdering Americans, like the Islamists."
The first suicide bombings in Israel were by Japanese terrorists, not Muslims, or have you forgot that fact?
This terrorist means had been used extensively by secular resistance movements outside the Middle East for many years before Islamic groups began to use it, a few decades ago.
Who did the first hijacking of a commercial airliner? It was Israel, wasn't it?
You conclude your comment: "Blaming Israel for being attacked by their Arab neighbors. Blaming the victim ...."
Stating the facts is not "blaming." Your version of history certainly requires revision . The Pappe' book reviewed here should assist you in doing so.
Why do Islamic socieities oppress women so bad Clark ?
Here is another question for the Pal supporters and the Dhimmi Carter supporters:
Why do Muslims murder so many Islamic people. What do Muslims have against islamic people ?
Millions of Muslims from Iran murdered millions of Islamic people from iraq during the iran Iraq war.
Hundreds of thousand of Muslims from Darfur murdered hundreds of thousand of Islamic people from Darfur.
In the past year tens of thousands of Muslims from Iraq have murdered tens of thousand of Islamic people from Iraq.
Why did Iraqi Muslims murder 500 Palestinian Islamic people recently ?
Why did Muslim hamas murder so many Islamic fatah members in the past month ?
What do Muslims have against Islamic people ?
Oh, and if millions of Muslims have been murdered by Islamic people and vice versa since the State of Zionist Apartheid was "reborn", isn't murder the more extreme form of Apartheid ? (ie Apartheid from the living)
SO MUSLIMS ARE COMMITING THE MOST EXTREME FORM OF APARTHEID AGAINST ISLAMIC PEOPLE . BUT DHIMMI WITS CARTER MISSED THAT POINT BECAUSE THE WHORE WAS NOT PAID FOR THAT.
Terrorism , when practised by Israel, by Muslims, by Americans or any others often is a means to implement a calculated political strategy ,having nothing to do with "revenge" or any religious belief. It may manipulates individuals to carry out its strategy. Revenge, religion, patriotism etc may be secondary factors.
What has the treatment of women to do with historian Ilan Pappe's book? I have said nothing about Islamic laws or religion, except to note that suicide bombing was introduced to the Middle East by a secular , Japanese terrorist group and later adopted by some Muslim groups.
Israel has defended it use of terrorism by expressing distortions of Judaism's religious doctrines .So have some Islamic groups done so..
Your voluminous talk of Islam makes it clear you have very limited knowledge about it and lack the experience of living in a variety of Islamic societies.
Your writing exhibits the symptoms of mental obsession, which, whatever causes it, is rooted in yourself. Your perceptions of the world reflect your inner condition more than they do reality.
By the way, Islamic history is replete with examples of women in leadership roles. In modern times, women have held positions of prime ministers, vice-presidents, cabinet ministers , seats in national parliaments and local legislatures in Islamic societies. Not all Islamic nations are democracies, yet the majority of the world's Muslims inhabit Islamic nations which are .
Thank you for the information you provide here. It's obvious that we "feminists" don't have what it takes to engage in a pop quiz It never ceases to amaze me how people can simultanously use "nazi-like" "anti-everything" rhetoric to hurl charges against feminists, jew-haters, terrorists, fundamentalists [just pick a label] and then cry "victim." Feminists, in particular, are stupid -- and that's why there are no women world leaders [they hope, they hope, they hope].
Charlie Rose is doing one of his particularly disdainful interviews with Iranian Ambassador Javad Zarif [who will be leaving Zarif says, sometime in the Spring].
Mr. Zarif makes an interesting point about the "manufactured evidence" of mortars, etc., noting that the "dates" on them are in the month-day format whereas everywhere else in the world it is "day-month-year." In any event, he flatly denies, in answer to Rose's direct question, that Iran has any interest in civil war in Iraq or in getting the U.S. bogged down in Iraq [Lindsey Graham's favorite refrain]. Zarif pointed out that we have done quite a good job of that ourselves.
In answer to Rose's question of the significance of the "axis of evil" comments vis a vis negotiations slowing down, Zarif said that Iran was helpful in Afghanistan and the U.S. reciprocated by coming up with the "axis of evil." He also denied that Iran has been unwilling to come to the table. We know Dr. Rice's take on this, "if there were any light there I would have seen it."
They had quite a confab on the definition of terrorist, and other labels, and the realities of the middle east and the deaths in Lebanon and Israel [btw, just found out that the cluster bombs that Israel dropped on Lebanon were made in Calfifornia -- knew they were made here -- didn't realize Ca]. Zarif mentioned use of the "shiia crescent" as a scare tactic and inaccurate [a la Peter Galbraith?]. Rose was either deliberately spinning, or is woefully ignorant, when he said flatly to Zarif that the Iraqi government is Shia. Zarif corrected him, name by name, and Rose let it go by so guess he [Rose] was just playing word games; i.e., not unlike here, just throw the words out, true or not; he always reminds me of Paula Zahn in his techniques.
Zarif said that the U.S. needs to take the minimum step, first of all, of making the commitment that it does not intend to stay permanently in Iraq, rather than conveying exactly the opposite message [with the surge]. Occupation has it's own dynamic and momentum, he says. [But, but, but, Rose said, the president has said occupation is not a good thing and congress is debating. . .] Zarif says saying is not doing. Zarif said "a dialogue is useful if the parties want to find solutions," and that Iran has presented proposals, but the U.S. has prevented proposals from even coming to the table. He said Rice says we are willing to talk, though she knows full well that there are preconditions that preclude any proposal coming forward [to the Quartet table]. Zariq says he doesn't see any interest in Washington in even looking for solutions -- perhaps that's why he has to leave. He also says genocide is bad and both sides need to say it. So, right back to the great Palestine-Israel divide.
But, on the cheery side, there is Jon Stewart's [and Lawrence Wilkerson's] assessment of Douglas Feith, and his special talents.
But be honest here, you justify the bombing of a restaurant by a suicide bomber for many reasons.
You miss the whole point of Pappe's article on purpose. The point of his article is: Could Israel do better vis a vis the Palestinians. he says "yes", I say Israel is not tough enough. So people disagree.
On the other hand, if the Islamic society oppresses women, which is one obvious example of many of the racist and evil practices of that society, where are the protests? Israel is fighting against an enemy that openly admits it seeks its destruction. What is the excuse for Islamic societies oppresing women as just one small example. Are women the enemy of Islam ?
So if so called feminists are marching for such an oppresive society, and they do not protest such obvious wrongs of that oppresive society, that is Jew hating, and/or stupidity being used as a dupe.
Its like the white cop that only enforces traffic laws against black people. You and your ilk only "enforce" moral laws against Jews and Israel. And the cop looking only to nail black people usually fabricates the evidence.
Talking about fabricating evidence, I am waiting for that Israeli hijacking you mentioned. Or can you only cut and paste propoganda articles. Or are you smoking the same stuff carolion is?
Name me one Arab democracy, just one. And Lebanon is not because by law certain positions go to certain religions. That is not democracy. There are no others.
Name me one Islamic democracy, besides maybe Turkey and Bangledesh ? The overwheliming majority are not democracies and that does not bother you.
You cannot answer the questions for obvious reasons.
Here in America, a woman, condi rice, is Secretary of State, and in Israel Tzipi Livni, that fool by the way, is foreign minister. Both positions of power.
Nancy Pelosi is speaker of the House. Clinton is running for president.
To paraphrase you, it never ceases to amaze me how some feminists can rant and rave about Israel using all sorts of names such as "discrimination", "racist", murderer, and then claim victim.
It's ok to be a hypocrite Missy, just dig deep for a little intellectual hypocrisy, instead of being an "amen" cheerleader for jewhating.
0) The Zionist movement was started by Hertzl in 1898 I think to try to find a homeland for the Jews. Until Israel was founded money was used to buy land which was sold to the Zionists in the Middle East. Some non-trivial fraction of what is now Israel was bought fair and square from the Arabs in the area.
1) Pre WWII Arab Muslims repressed Jews and Christians to varying degrees in the whole of Middle East with some minor exceptions. Muslims still do the same thing, their belief you can see on the web any day is that the non-believers will be killed someday.
2) Previous to, and during WWII Europe murdered 6 million Jews along with anyone else they thought they would be richer or happier without.
3) Before and during WWII the Arabs sided with Hitler and the Nazis. Jews were kept from emmigration to the Holy Land by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who also was involved in pograms against the Jews in the Jerusalem area.
4) Jews having lost millions of people through immoral actions of supposedly religious people and having a critical mass of people in Israel declared nationhood.
5) Since Israel was meant to be a Jewish homeland in contrast to the whole rest of the Middle East ... ie. Morrocco to Afghanistan and beyond Palestinians were bound to have problems ... 300 thousand left or their own accord, or were told to leave by their leaders or were forced to leave out of fear.
6) The Arab countries refused to accept their brothers and stuck them as refugess, and forced them to be a proxy army living in poverty and misery, much like the many ignorant muslims who are inhabiting the Middle East Arab countries now, living in a low-tech religious dominated totalitarian society that demands absolute obedience from them or they have as little support as the Jews and Christians in these countries.
7) The Palestinians who moved were due compensation at the time. Since that time the Palestinians and the Arabs determined to destroy Israel have caused so much damage and terror throughout the world it could be argued they are due nothing.
8) Nevertheless they have been given chance after chance to develop their own state, and because of the onablity to understand how to create a civilized country the remain even more determined to destroy Israel and they cannot even live with each other.
9) They constantly snipe, bomb, murder and threaten Israel and their media and schools teach them to hate Israel and the US and to dedicate their lives to our destruction.
10) These people are so screwed over by their own people they cannot get along with Arabs anymore either, except to accept money and guns to continue the fight against Israel. When in Jordan the Palestinians tried to kill the king of Jordan and take over the country. When in Lebanon they turned that once beautiful country into a battlefield .... as they did with the Olympics, and other terrorist targets all over the world now for 50+ years.
There are all kinds of minor incidents that you can point at to confuse people, there always are, nothing in this world is black and white or easy to determine, but the large broad brush strokes of history show that the Palestinians will never build a country and a government, and that if they do it will be in constant war with Israel.
The only solution I can see to all of this is to prosecute the war on terror until we have forced the Middle Eastern governments to be secular and their media and schools to stop being factories for suicide bomber indoctrination. There is no way the world can live with a culture of death and terror like Totalitarian Islam.
Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury in Bangladesh who is on trial for his
life for just printing in his newpaper that the Islamic countries should
seek peace in the Middle East and talk with Israel. He stated he
believed that Israel has a right to exist and that peace could be
negotiated.
ON TRIAL FOR HIS LIFE .... do you understand?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah_Choudhury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_conversion_controversy
Oh but the merciful Muslims may allow him to live .... he just must leave the country and accept being labelled insane.
The world does allow apartheid in Israel and Palestine. Here is how:
Since over 100 times more Africans have been murdered by Islamists than Palestinians killed during the terror wars during the same time period and since the African murders get less than ten percent of the media coverage compared to "Pallestine" we can conclude that:
An African life has one thousandth the value of a Pallestinian life. So Carter is right, there are two types of Apartheid going on in the Middle East.
1. There is a media Apartheid, where the media creates a great wall snaking through all the human suffering stories, cutting off the Africans;
2. There is a "right to life" apartheid where one thousand Africans combined have less of a right to life as one Pallestinian.
But because the Africans are truly innocent, and the pallestinians are not, the right to life of a pallestinian is even greater than 1000 to one compared to some "low life" African.
Mr Carter, tear down your Apartheid wall.
HEY CLARKE ARE YOU DUCKING THE QUESTIONS ??? TELL US ABOUT THE ISRAELI HIJACKING OR WERE YOU DUPING SOME OF US AGAIN WITH YOUR JEW HATING RACIST DRIVEL
The palestinians have always used Israel's connection to the Holocaust and their perceived victimhood as a means to justifytheir own hatred and self-pity, murders and other sickening actions against Jews and others in the region - as well as to themselves.
They never cease to regard themselves as the true victims and they'd rather sit there taking handouts, being the world's largest recipients of such handouts, instead of getting up on their feet and take REAL action and start making a LIVING instead of preaching death to their children and the killing of everyone that don't agree with their culture of death.
I don't think I agree with much that you say, if anything, but that doesn't mean I wish to kill you. However, where I live, my neighbour will gladly kill me for being what I am and not for what I do or say - and he or she firmly believes that this is God's will. How doesn that make me feel? Well, it doesn't make me want to run away if that's what you think. I am more certain than ever that this is where I belong and that this is where I will remain.
This is the strangest "ethnic cleansing" I have ever hear of. From being 700 000 refugees, there are now millions of them. I am confused. Isn't an "ethnic cleansing" supposed to have the opposite effect?
What happened to the 800 000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries, that left around that same time? Why are they not encamped in refugee camps, living in poverty and misery receiving handouts and the world's pity? What happened to the Jews' belongings, their homes, their money? Do you think they were allowed to take it with them when they left the Arab countries? And where do you think they went? Yes, that's right, nearly 600 000 of them ended up in Israel.
Does Israel have a "right to exist"? you ask. This is such a strange question - as if a nation should have to ask for the right to be alive and live in their own country. From what other people do we ask this? There are still nations in the world suffering - the Kurds for instance. They have their own culture, their own lands, their own language. But they don't have their own country. What do the Palestinians have? And what have they been offered? And how many times? And how many times have they said no?
Who live in the houses the Jews used to live in, in Iraq, in Iran, in Yemen etc? Why don't the Jews kill Moslems for their right to return to their former homes?
What makes you believe it was the Jews who drove the Arabs away in 1948? At that time everyone living in the British Mandate of Palestine were called "Palestinians" and many of them arrived there with their families as the Jews arrived in order to make a living as the Jews provided work - for everybody.
"Palestine" was the name the Romans once gave the occupied territory - in order to erase all traces of the Jews. But that doesn't mean that the country was empty after the Jews were exiled - or empty of Jews. They didn't just show up there after the war, like colonialist conquerors. What makes people think that they did? Who said so? And why?
Why are the Islamic propagandists so intent on denying the Jews their history and their homeland? Why do they say there was never a temple in Jerusalem, never mind two of them? Why do they claim Jews have no connections to the country, in spite of numerous evidence to the contrary? What is it that they are so afraid of?
In 1948 the Palestinians were born as a people, not before, and they have - of course - a right to their own country. The problem is that they just don't want to share it. With anybody. Especially not the Jews.
The Palestinians know that their "return" means the end of Israel - and that's why they are driving this issue just as they are driving the issue of never ever accepting Israel as a fact, or recognizing Israel as a state - as if they had their own.
That's the only thing that is needed - for the Palestinians to recognize Israel and admit that they have a right to live and exist. Then the talk can begin. But how can you talk to a terrorist government that preaches the destruction of your state, your home, your life? And you call the Israelis what?
"The 1948 war was planned and and provoked by Israel to gain more territory than the U.N. had allotted for the Jewish state and to expel more Palestinian Arabs."
Of course - blame the Jews. That's what you do best. Not a word of course about the Arab leaders encouraging the Palestinian Arabs to get out in order for them to wipe out the Jews and then return triumphantly - that was the plan. Oh no, the Jews WANTED to be attacked by 5 or 6 Arab countries' armies - it's every Jew's dream to be slaughtered by invading enemies!
I am a Zionist - and as opposed to many, I know what that word actually means: It means the right to self determination and the right to live in peace in your own country. The Palestinians could do well to try that for a change. The peace bit I mean. It seems to be hard for them as they do nothing but encourage violence and hatred.
If you are told there is no hope, eventually you lose it. If you are told you might as well die, you eventually come to believe that. If you are told that Paradise is better than your present miserable existence, then there will never be a shortage of suicide murderers lining up. If you are told Jews are pigs and monkeys and don't have the right to live, that you are superior to them, then it's not difficult for you to kill them. Not at all.
Just like the children were indoctrinated in Nazi Germany, so are the children being indoctrinated in the schools in the Moslem world today. They will grow up to believe that a Jew is inferior and you'd do best to kill him - in fact, you will be doing the world a favour! These children are the heirs of Hitler and his ilk, the brainwashed human cannon fodder of today - and how does it feel to know that you could have stopped it, if you had just given it some thought? This is not about who is right and who is wrong - this is about loving life - or taking it.
Ilan Pappé is a sad and self hating human being with no credibility in any academic circles. I think one should listen to everybody, but only fools take his words to heart - and there are plenty of them, I'm afraid. I am not afraid of an open debate, but I am afraid of people who listen to people who don't know what they are talking about and who's only aim seem to be to sow seeds of hatred and death instead of making the most of what little we have got and make a go of it - together.
"Your voluminous talk of Islam makes it clear you have very limited knowledge about it and lack the experience of living in a variety of Islamic societies.
Your writing exhibits the symptoms of mental obsession, which, whatever causes it, is rooted in yourself. Your perceptions of the world reflect your inner condition more than they do reality."
I do not live in Islamic societies because I do not want to live as a Dhimmi, and I do not want to live in the seventh century. But most of all as a Jew, i do not want to be murdered by having my head cut off like daniel Pearl or Berg for being a Jew in an islamic society.
You are afraid to answr my questions, you just cut and paste nonsense. Your postings shows a very common mental obsession: Jew hating.
And you are a naive hypocrite to boot.
I am still waiting for the Israeli hijacking claim you made, but you do not have the guts or character to back it up. You defend a backward way of life. Move up to the 21 century.
It is more and more clear to more and more people that the only permanent way to disabuse radical Islamist terrorists of their insanity is militaristically, otherwise the world terror that has been with us since the Munich olympics up until today will be with us escalating and neverending until it is permanently stomped out and replace with something positive.
It's kind of hard to do that when you know that Israel can come in any time they want and demolish your home, business, farm and crops for no reason at all with no compensation.
"This is the strangest "ethnic cleansing" I have ever hear of. From being 700 000 refugees, there are now millions of them. I am confused. Isn't an "ethnic cleansing" supposed to have the opposite effect?"
Perhaps you should look in the dictionary. "Ethnic cleansing" is the systematic removal of any specific group from a region. It may, or may not, include murder or 'incidental' deaths of mass proportions. Pushing another people out of a region, a specific people, is ethnic cleansing.
"What happened to the 800 000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries, that left around that same time? "
Again, that's called ethnic cleansing.
"In 1948 the Palestinians were born as a people, not before"
That's such BS. Palestine had been a part of Islamic nations for 1300 years, usually as a province or district.
" Name women of political power in Islamic society and you cannot. "
Tansu Ciller, Megawati Sukarnoputri, Benazir Bhutto, Khaleda Zia, and Sheikh Hasina Wazed have all been Prime Minister or Presidents of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 5th largest Muslim nations in the world.
"Explain why Saudi Arabia..."
Because it is a trouble, backward, male-oriented society that has very little aspects of the Islamic life built into it. To claim that the Saudis, who live in billion dollar mansions while their people are unemployed and poverty-stricken (which are very un-Islamic), are the leaders of an Islamic nation is just plain silly and ignorant.
" Are saudis breaking Islamic law by doing this ? isn't this gender apartheid."
Of course both are true statements.
"I am still waiting for the Israeli hijacking claim you made, but you do not have the guts or character to back it up."
Nope, first was was in Peru in '31 before Israel "existed".
You cannot find one reference to any Arab calling themselves palestinian prior to 67, I dare you.
It was not until 67 that Palestinians were conveniently invented because israel conquered that land.
And again I say name one Islamic woman of real political power today, and you cannot. Out of 1.5 billion Muslims.
It is convenient for you to say Saudi Arabia violates islamic law. Then where are the billions of Muslims protesting that ? Show me a Fatwa declaring the royal House of Saud violating Islamic law.
Defend Islam all you like, but under that hood, is a very evil repressive chauvanist society that wants the world to become Islamic, dead or alive.
> It's kind of hard to do that when you know that Israel
> can come in any time they want and demolish your home,
> business, farm and crops for
>>>>>>> no reason at all
> with no compensation.
Israel demolishes homes for no reason at all? I do not think I need to ask you any more about your beliefs Nick P.
I would ask you in the spirit of objectivity to consider if you really believe that statement and what would be the reason to shoot Israelis or fire rockets into Israeli cities ... that is purely in reaction to Israel's totally unprovoked actions I presume? You see no problem with thinking that?
If it is indeed just a cycle of violence, why is it chronically broken by the Palestinians side each time there is some sort of truce of attempt to negotiate? Why will Hamas not recognize the existence of Israel ... are they just now insanely mad forever at Israel for all their unprovoked attacks?
What do you think about the right of Israel to exist Nick P?
Yeah, I've always found the best way to get to know someone is by insulting them even after they've been kind to you. You really are a people-person, aren't you?
"Find one historical reference to those Arabs calling themselves Palestinian before 67."
During the Islamic Caliphate (Khilafa) under Ummayad and Abassaid rule in early Islam, the Caliphs divided the lands under their rule into different provinces and then into districts. The province of Syria (Al-Sham) was divided into five districts, one of which was "Jund Filistin" (the district of Palestine).
After the Crusaders were pushed out, districting was put into place again under al-Mumalik in the 13th century. Syria (al-Sham) was broken into nine emirates, several of which were the "Kingdoms" of Ghaza, Karak, and Safad.
Later in the 14th century, Syria was divided again into districts (five). One of which was Palestine with its capitol at where? Jerusalem.
Following the Ottoman's conquest of the region, Palestine came out of the official diction of the nation, but still existed in the spoken language. It came out as the province because Ottoman Empire called their provinces by the capital of the province and since there is not Palestine City, there couldn't be a Palestine district under Ottoman rule.
So maybe you're right. Maybe there wasn't any mention of Palestine prior to '67. I guess I was wrong...
"And again I say name one Islamic woman of real political power today, and you cannot. Out of 1.5 billion Muslims. "
I just named FIVE Prime Ministers and Presidents!
"Show me a Fatwa declaring the royal House of Saud violating Islamic law. "
Saudi Arabia receives $500 million dollars a day from oil and gas sales. Do you really think they don't have one of the largest, if not the largest, influence upon fatwas even outside their country? If someone goes against them, they have the ability to attack and ravage that person's life and reputation.
All it takes is a rudimentary knowledge of Islam to know that they are indulging in excess (which is prohibited) in all of the material wealth around them and that the injustice they show their people is completely against Islam.
Again, women of political power today, like condi rice, tzipi livni, h. clinton, or pelosi. The ones you mentioned are history and btw NON ARAB, who have never had women in true political power. You cannot answer either question which is typical of an arab Islamic terror apologist, smoke and mirrors.
Name one Islamic woman with true Islamic political power today ?
To get the Israelis to pull out of the Palestinian territories, destroy the settlements, etc.
" that is purely in reaction to Israel's totally unprovoked actions I presume? You see no problem with thinking that?"
I never said all of the demolitions are completely unprovoked.
" Why will Hamas not recognize the existence of Israel"
I don't know. Stubbornness I guess. I had thought they'd at least accept a 'basic' Israeli state, maybe like the '48 borders or something. I didn't think they were this stupid and stubborn.
"What do you think about the right of Israel to exist Nick P?"
Jews certainly should have a nation of their own, or at least largely of their own. The history of Jews and others hasn't been a great one, so continuing down that path is pretty insane.
But existence in that land is nearly completely different subject. The Palestinians never should have had to pay for the genocides committed by the Germans, Polish, Italians, French, etc. But arguing that is about as pointless as whether to have gone into Iraq. It's a done deal, no turning back now.
> one, so continuing down that path is pretty insane.
That is a curious comment? What does it mean?
To reply to your last paragraph, lots of things shouldn't
happen, from someone being mugged to big things like
war and prejudice, but they do. To use the small question
of whether "Palestinians" ( and you understand why I use
the quote relative to Martin's comments ) should pay for
Europe's attocities ... you see the attrocities have also been
Arab attrocities, and they have been historicially directed
towards Jews, Christians and anyone else for whatever
reason. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sided with the Nazis
prior to the outbreak of WWII before there even was an
Israel, while the worldwide Zionist movement was buying
land in the area for Jews to settle in.
As to arguing about it, I think it is not a done deal as you
say, or a deal that is not aiming to be UNdone by the
Palestinians or Hamas would be willing to recognize Israel's
right of existence, or at least talk about it, no?
I think looked at in the broad picture after all this time one
conclusion only is possible, any other viewpoint always leads
in the same destablizing direction.
I'm simply talking about the thousands of years of persecution (pograms, genocides, ethnic cleansings, etc). Not that great of a history.
"you see the attrocities have also been Arab attrocities"
True, but they were absolutely nothing compared to the Holocaust. Al-Husayni played a very small role in the Holocaust. It would have been much more appropriate to carve out a portion of Europe or another place for the Jews to establish a land.
" I think it is not a done deal as you say"
200 nukes with last-strike capability. Israel won't be going anywhere.
>> the Holocaust.
You are absolutely in error there ... the Arab actions towards
the Jews were an extension of - and are a continuation of the
Holocaust.
Search for Hezbollah and Hamas and and it will not take but
about 2 clicks to find photos of either giving the Nazi Salute
and using Nazi symbolism. What do you think that means?
Search history for ties to Nazism, they are there ... look up the
Handzar division of the SS.
The fact that you did not know this or seek to trivialize it
means either you have not looked very hard ... as I say one
or two clicks ... or you are being deliberately deceitful.
Again, the Zionist movement to find a homeland for the Jews
begun in 1898 purchased something like 30% of the area
that was to be Israel from willing Arabs.
Israel's defensive strike capacity while a deterrent against
conventional warfare is not deterrent against a radical Islamic
bomb ... which is why Iran is forcing the issue with its intention
to build nuclear weapons. Israel has never been a threat to
Iran ... however Iran funds Hamas and Hezbollah.
the Jews were an extension of - and are a continuation of the
Holocaust."
How many Jews have died at the hands of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc? A few thousand, maybe? How many at the hands of Germans, Italians, Russians, French, Danish, Polish, etc? Several million. There is still no comparison.
True, but very very recent history. All within the past 10 years and the last one just left office half a year ago. And I gave you non-Arabs because you didn't ask for Arab women only. Perhaps you should learn the difference between Arab and Muslim/Islamic.
"You only refer to the area being called palestine at various points in History."
No, I show proof that it's been called Palestine for at least 500 years, not at various points in history.
Prior to WWI, in the build up of the Jewish presence in Palestine, a Jaffa Journal called Filisteen (Palestine) urged for Palestinians to engage in the purchasing of government land for the establishment of "a patriotic Palestinian society". Not an Arab society. A society dominated by Palestinians. (From "The Palestinian-Arab National Movement" pg. 8-9)
A famous Palestinian Mufti, al-Ramli, in the late 1500's mentions the term Palestine quite often in his writings, fatwas, etc. The notable thing about this is that this occurs when there is no "Palestine" exactly (under Ottoman rule). It wasn't just a name of a province he was living in, in which case he would call it "bilad a-sham"(Greater Syria). Instead, he identifies his homeland as Palestine, recognizing himself as a Palestinian.
The term Palestine and thus Palestinians has existed long before '67. Not just as ink on maps around the world or on the TV, but in the hearts and minds of Palestinians for at least 500 years.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/4ecbf3578b6149c50525657100507fab!OpenDocument&Click=
If you read it carefully it was only the jews that wanted an independent palestinian state.
And throughout, it refers to the "arabs of palestine", never "palestinians" because there was no such thing. The arabs of palestine considered themselves as arabs, in fact name me the leader of the palestinian arabs in 1948. You cannot, because there was none.
If there were "palestinians" then why did the palestinian government not object when Jordan occupied the west bank from 1948 to 1967 ?
Its all a lie and I will find you the quote from Ralph Bunche where he says that the Arabs of Palestine did not want to be distinct from the transjordan arabs. Ralph Bunche was the UN mediator, an African American from Detroit Mich.
On a deeper more philisophical level, the Palestinians must be a fraud, since that name was imposed by the Romans, and no people have ever taken on a name someone else gave them. The Arabs of Palestine took on their own name, the name they gave themselves, the nation that they really are, Arabs!
That's because there wasn't a Palestinian government. How could they talk about something that didn't exist?
"If there were "palestinians" then why did the palestinian government not object when Jordan occupied the west bank from 1948 to 1967 ?"
Because they knew that Jordan was going to help them reclaim their lost lands.
"The arabs of palestine considered themselves as arabs,"
Of course, that's because they are Arabs and Palestinians. I never said they weren't Arabs. Just because you're Arab, doesn't mean you aren't Palestinian. The people of the region of Palestine have resided there for hundreds of years and have come to love their land and are willing to fight reclaim it.
"the Palestinians must be a fraud, since that name was imposed by the Romans"
Palestine is a word from Philistine, an ancient non-Semitic ethnic group in the region (right around the Ghaza Strip), which is still the name of the region to this day (in Arabic and I imagine Hebrew, Aramaic, etc). The term did not originate with the Romans, but with the ancient people that lived there before. Can you at least get something right?
"Its all a lie and I will find you the quote from Ralph Bunche where he says that the Arabs of Palestine did not want to be distinct from the transjordan arabs."
Probably that at time, but that doesn't apply for the entire history of the Palestinians. You can't take a single moment of history and blindly apply it to the entire history of a people.
Instead, I've taken accounts throughout history of Palestinians identifying themselves as such. Palestinian poetry is filled with love for their land, their Palestine. To say that it didn't exist is pure nonsense when there is hundreds of years of history behind Palestine.
A nice, radical twist you seem to put on everything. Police don't seem to think religion was a motive, so what are your reasons for jumping to conclusions without hardly any evidence?
Perhaps, if you'll let me guess, he'd gone a bit crazy after witnessing a massacre of 8,000 of his people when he was a child. Witnessing stuff like that can cause severe trauma, especially in children, which can cause explosive outbursts and mental disorders.
But no, he's Muslim, so it must be religion. Please. Think for a change.
You are the jew hater and you also hate [fill in the label] and you like to make war.
I asked some questions to expose the lies on this thread and so far all I can see is smoke and mirrors.
I asked anyone to name women of real political power today in the arab world and in the Islamic world. Like what we have in America and israel. No answer. The point was, that in Islam women are treated like second class citizens, for example the Apartheid dress they have to wear that covers them from head to toe. This was to expose the hypocrisy of lunatics like Rachel Corey, essentially screaming to be treated like women were in the seventh century in the most repressive parts of the world.
I asked for the reference of the Israelis hijacking a plane, as Clarke M asserted, -- no answer.
I asked for a reference of other societies with grudges besides the murderous Islamists murdering civilians by commiting terrorist acts. Clarke mentioned the Japanese red army at Lod airport. That is not an example of japanese murdering american civilians because of hiroshima or nagasaki. Or the Hindus murdering British civilians because of their past occupation. Or the vietnamese murdering american civilians because of the vietnam war. Or the American Indians murdering American citizens today because of their plight. That makes the Islamists rather unique today both qualitatively and quantitatively. But no answer.
Or Jewish people murdering Germans because of the Holocaust. No answer.
I asked why there is so little talk of the mass murder in Rwanda, darfur, Sudan, Ethiopia, the iran Iraq war where millions of muslims were murdered by Islamic people: No answer.
And hundreds of thousand of Africans have been murdered and are still being murdered by Islamic people in some cases, and by Muslims in other cases, -- no answer.
And I threw out a challenge to find the term 'palestinian' used by any Arab prior to 1967, no answer. The fact that their was a 'palestine' is not in dispute. My great great aunt, a Jew, lived in Palestine in 1901, did that make her a Palestinian ?
If there were Palestinians prior to 1967, what was their currency ? Who were their leaders ? What was their flag ? WHAT DID THE PALESTINIANS CONTRIBUTE TO THE WORLD PRIOR TO 1967 ????? No answer because there was no such thing as a Palestinian, they are fungible generic Arabs. There is nothing wrong with that.
And I found an original UN document proving it was only the jews that wanted an independent Arab Palestinian state. No answer.
Now some more questions. Does the Quran state that non muslims are inferior ? Does the Quran state that the eastern worshippers, Budhists, Hinduists etc.. must be converted or murdered ? Does the Quran state that Christian or jewish non believers must be converted or made second class citizens called Dhimmis ?
Are there millions of Muslims that believe the above ? Are there millions of Muslims willing to enforce the above ?
Do millions of Muslims go on murderous rampages when the free press insults their prophet muhammed who was a murderer and a child molestor, but do not say a word when the most vile jew hating filth is published in the Islamic world ?
Do Muslims demand respect for their religion, but desecrate other peoples religious shrines such as churches, synogauges, Budhist staues in Afghanistan ?
Are Muslims involved in 95% of the Global wars today ?
If the answer to the above is yes, then I would say that Islam does not make for very nice world citizens.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/4ecbf3578b6149c50525657100507fab!OpenDocument&Click=
"9. On 18 September the Progress Report of the Mediator was submitted to the General Assembly. In evaluating the situation of the proposed Arab State, the Mediator stated:
"As regards the parts of Palestine under Arab control, no central authority exists and no independent Arab State has been organized or attempted. This situation may be explained in part by Arab unwillingness to undertake any step which would suggest even tacit acceptance of partition, and by their insistence on a unitary State in Palestine. The Partition Plan presumed that effective organs of state government could be more or less immediately set up in the Arab part of Palestine. This does not seem possible today in view of the lack of organized authority springing from Arab Palestine itself, and the administrative disintegration following the termination of the Mandate. There now exists in Palestine a form of partition, though an Arab State for which the Partition Plan provided has not materialized and there is no economic union. The problem of the future of the Arab part of Palestine and its economic viability is therefore thrust into the foreground."
"
To see the original, look here :
http://domino.un.org/pdfs/AAC25W19.pdf
By the way , the "mediator" the report refers to is , I believe, Ralph Bunche, an African American, from Detroit Michigan, winner of the Nobel Prize in 1950, a man of great integrity, not exactly biased in favor of the Jews, who I believe the Jew hating filth Finkelstein worked for.
I feel sorry for non Muslim black people and women , who the Islamists have used as dupes for a phony cause, cynically being used for a different agenda: The islamic war against the West.
And by the way, unlike carter, Bunche had real academic credentials, a real PHD from Harvard, not a make believe phony correspondence course in "nuclear terminology" from Union college that cannot even be verified, which dhimmi carter pimped as a "nuclear engineer".
Ya see Britain inherited Palestine from the Turks. Britian let a few Jews in, some Jews already lived in Palestine, then Britian said to the UN, Palestine is your problem. The Un said we will divide it up. The Arabs said no way, Jews will not be allowed to have a state no matter who owns the land because we hate the idea of filthy Jews being our neghbors as a state or even as Dhimmis.
So who wanted the ethnic purity, jews or Muslim Arabs ?
Read the original instead of all the hype if ya have the guts:
http://domino.un.org/pdfs/AAC25W19.pdf
It paints an ugly picture of the ethnic cleansing Arabs. Now who espoused "ethnic purity" besides the Arabs in 1900's to the present ?? Why our own Dhimmi Carter on April 3, 1976 , his famous "ethnic purity" remark.
See what you think.
It's already received a drive-by 1 - LOL - some non-courageous hit-person, bless its heart!
But truly, I'd appreciate hearing your take on it.
You sure about that? The location and names of both "Philistia" and "Filisteen" are practically identical. It's pretty much statistically impossible for that to happen coincidentally. Everywhere I've looked, they all say that the term "Palestine" originated from the Greek invaders thousands of years ago. Would you care to explain how that coincidence just happened to occur, if you don't mind? Thanks
"True, the Palestinians are desperate and grasp at straws to find historical evidence that they were there first "
Yeah, pretty pathetic. Just to clear up any confusion, I wasn't making that connection. The current Palestinians are far distinct from any previous people that inhabited that region.
"And I threw out a challenge to find the term 'Palestinian' used by any Arab prior to 1967, no answer"
I gave you two examples, one dating back several hundred years. But I guess if it doesn't fit your little tiny view of things, then you just ignore it. Apparently, you can't take being wrong.
"I asked anyone to name women of real political power today in the arab world and in the Islamic world. "
There have been many women in power. Pakistan and Iran (at least) have many women in their respective Parliaments (Pakistan even requires a minimum). Pakistan alone has 91 women in Parliament out of 342 seats. That's a higher percentage of women in representation than in America. And you say they are not involved in politics?
I can't think of any Arab women involved in politics, except in Lebanon (which has 6 women in Parliament).
"I asked for the reference of the Israelis hijacking a plane, as Clarke M asserted, -- no answer."
I gave you an answer a few days ago (Clarke's comment was false).
"what was their currency ? Who were their leaders ? What was their flag ?"
Akc(h)e, Kurush
Suleiman, Salah Al-Deen. The list goes on.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i143/Abdulrahmanhilmi/islam-flag.jpg
Are you suggesting that the hijacking of a commercial civilian airliner flying in international airspace , carried out as an officially authorized, premeditated order by a state, in this case , Israel, was (and is) not a serious transgression of international law and an act of state terrorism?
I suggest you review the official views that other nations expressed concerning act.
I will give you the link: www.memri.org, then do a search for women or follow the link.
As for Palestinians, you mean you found two references from how many hundreds of years ? In what language ? How do you know it was translated correctly. Read the original UN docs I cited . They make it clear there were no Palestinians, just generic Arabs, that only wanted to be considered Arabs, and had absolutely no unique culture compared to other Arabs.
Professor Said was Egyptian by the way, so was Arafat I believe but I might be wrong about Arafat.
No, I found more. But since I suspected you'd just drop the case once proven wrong, I didn't feel like wasting my time posting more.
"How do you know it was translated correctly."
They were done by Israeli professors and historians (Gerber and Porath). But you're right, maybe they aren't trustworthy.
"They make it clear there were no Palestinians, just generic Arabs, that only wanted to be considered Arabs, and had absolutely no unique culture compared to other Arabs."
No Palestinians at that time in power. That does not translate to all Palestinians throughout history. I just love how you jump to conclusions like that.
Arafat was born in Cairo, but was of Palestinian heritage. This has to do with what, though?
"I will give you the link: www.memri.org, then do a search for women or follow the link. "
It gives hundreds of matches that have nothing to do with Pakistan or their Parliament. Can you be a bit more specific?
You really don't think they get anything done? So then you think it was the men that passed the law that got rid of the Hudood Ordinances pertaining to rape? In a very traditional, male-oriented society, you think men did that? I think it's much more likely that the substantial group of women in power got that passed through despite rapid protest from most of the traditionalists in that nation. But believe what you want.
Clarke, I searched for that supposed hijacking. I could find none. You say it was the first one ever, so I searched that specifically and that occurred in '31, more than a decade before Israel was even born. You wanna give us some specifics such as location of take-off, hijacking, landing, year, group, airliner, etc?
You wrote:
"Ilan Pappé is a sad and self hating human being with no credibility in any academic circles. I think one should listen to everybody, but only fools take his words to heart - and there are plenty of them, I'm afraid. I am not afraid of an open debate, but I am afraid of people who listen to people who don't know what they are talking about and who's only aim seem to be to sow seeds of hatred and death instead of making the most of what little we have got and make a go of it - together. "
Surely you have have not studied Ilan Pappe's books in a critical, objective way. He has contributed to our knowledge of the distortions of Israel's history. Through fabricating myths denying the existence of the Palestinian people, Zionism, early on, sought to create a justification for their removal, not only from their land but from history. Historical records were falsified – a procedure begun during the last quarter of the 19th century , but continuing to this day through such pseudo-historical writings as Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial.
_______________________________________
nick p.,
The airplane hijacking was mentioned in discussing Islamic and Israeli terrorist acts in the Middle East. I wrote:
"The first suicide bombings in Israel were by Japanese terrorists, not Muslims....
This terrorist means had been used extensively by secular resistance movements outside the Middle East for many years before Islamic groups began to use it, a few decades ago. Who did the first hijacking of a commercial airliner? It was Israel ..."
The hijacking in question is discussed in many papers and books. U S State Department records are always a good resource for researching international incidents. Moshe Sharret's Diaries give an interesting account of the hijacking. He was Foreign Minister (later Prime Minister) of Israel at the time and had to deal with the crisis personally. The date of the hijacking was December 12, 1952.
Sharett's account is briefly referenced in this socio-political study :
http://bintjbeil.com/E/terror_gambill.html#26
THE BALANCE OF TERROR
by GARY C. GAMBILL
War By Other Means In The Contemporary Middle East
(Journal of Palestine Studies, Volume 28, No. 1, Automn 1998, Issue 109)
This article analyzes how both state and nonstate actors in the Middle East have used terrorism as a policy instrument to attain specific political objectives. The author presents a formula for measuring the utility of terrorism with respect to several important variables. The seventeen-day clash between Israel and Hizballah in April 1996 is accorded special attention because of the almost exclusive reliance on terrorism by both sides.
David K. Shipler's study , Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land (New York: Penguin Books, 1986) is a good resource . David Shipler has documented the development of terrorism within Middle Eastern societies. He writes:
"Terrorism between Arabs and Jews, in both directions, has had a corrosive effect on the attitudes of average people toward each other, on their capacity to reject violence morally, on the low threshold of outrage that any decent society must maintain to be shocked by its own behavior and to prevent itself from degenerating into brutality. As terrorism becomes normal, it becomes acceptable. It grows into routine. " (p. 85 )
And it still wasn't the first hijacking ('31) or the first commercial hijacking ('48).
Charles: the victim controls the drama. Not in any silly superficial way - no "new age / sewage" here, Dear.
An individual soul goes through many incarnations of trials, tests, and empowerments until, through the alchemy of experience plus Divine Love, it matures into full Godescence.
A group soul does likewise.
Just as individual souls each have their paths, their karmic colors, their choices,
so do group souls.
A group soul like Judaism or Islam or Christianity or Germany or United States or Israel or India may have many members which are participants in parallel groups. A Jew persecuted by Nazis in one incarnation may choose to be a Zionist illegal settler persecuting Palestinians in its next incarnation. Or it might choose to be one of the Palestinians being persecuted by Zionists AND being helped by Israeli Doves and Christian Peacemakers.
There are lots of choices, lots of paths.
In terms of creating a Hitler Sheol, it takes many, many generations of fear-scapegoatings to create that scene. It takes a strong belief in hell, and a strong refusal to see and explore and transform one's inner hell (the essence of the Inner Jihad is just that: confronting and transforming one's inner hell, in order to avoid creating a hell outside oneself).......
It takes a lot of fear and projecting of one's inner hatreds to create a Hitler.
Yet humanity does this all the time. There are plenty of Hitlers and plenty of Jews - you might say the Palestinians and the Darfurians are our current "Jews."
You see, they are all GOOD.
They are also all acting-out group-soul dramas.
Their pain is OUR pain; their suffering is FOR ALL OF US, so we can choose to perform the Inner Jihad on our personal souls and on our group souls-------
That is the essence of Peace.
Refusing to justify any projection/scapegoating, refusing to sit on thrones of self-righteousness throwing stones at scapegoats -
but, instead, putting on our work clothes and getting into our own personal soul sewers - getting into our own group shadows - finding our dirt and working with it, instead of dumping it onto scapegoats.
You may feel free to misinterpret what I've said as "victim-blaming." You may feel free to scapegoat me rather than work with your "stuff" -
But you know, I'm a Jew at the group soul level.
Go ahead.
We're in shul.
>> How many Jews have died at the hands of Hamas,
>> Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc? A few thousand, maybe?
>> How many at the hands of Germans, Italians, Russians,
>> French, Danish, Polish, etc? Several million. There is
>> still no comparison.
Nick P for you to ask the question shows that you do not
even have a clue about human rights in this world ... what
kind of logic measures human rights by how many murders
are committed? You are seriously missing a large part of
your humanity.