We Have Lost our Status as a Moral Authority on Human Rights

There are always innocents involve in war - and when people raise their voices against war - there are three times as many who want to shut them up....I will never understand the justification for war as we are dealing with it now. If our borders were being invaded and the Mexican Militia came up thru CA - or the Canadian immigrants came from the north, you can bet your life they would not get far would they.........or would they?

Congress has to investigate this gross abuse of our Constitution. If these people didn't go in as terrorists , they certainly will come out as one. How the bushies get away with this is beyond me . Where was congress?. Sitting by and allowing it. Another sad in our history.

It is so sad that so many innocent people got caught up in the terrorist net established by Bush. It is worse yet, that nothing has been done after five years. And you're right. Many of them may become terrorists or at least enemies of the U.S. simply because they have been so abused.

Those people would have been much better off living under Taliban rule. The US sucks.

This is the face of war and always shall be, until the one comes to end all war and bring peace.

Life's a beach...then you get tortured. Water-boarding, sleep depravation, mental and physical duress, brainwashing...All pretty horrible. But, if you recall, NOTHING, not even a remote, ad hoc comparison (not EVEN) to what happened to Daniel Pearl. Saddam got it easy. This guy gets it easy. Try a k-bar marine knife, serrated edge in, across the throat until you his a nerve too thick to cut through - forcing you to start over from the other side, all the while, your gurgling victim is aware and alive. And then the ramifications to his family, friends, colleagues, not to mention the chill cast over the free press community in the civilized world. I have no sympathy, and tend to feel like under the right circumstances, torture is acceptable, even necessary, to achieve an objective, without moral compromise. What we regard as morally reprehensible pales by comparison next to what the rest of the third world believes is unacceptable. Scream, kick, yell, throw a tantrum - that's what happens if we do something a little (or a lot - i.e. Atom Bomb to end WWII) left of center. But, we should lay off the nation fostering this kind of behavoir and condoning things worse? No. If you want to maintain your moral superiority, stay away from judgment, war, intervention, and everything else that might get your hands a little dirty. Then, while you're sitting in your ivory tower, looking down at the small ants scurrying back and forth, toiling, revisit Hitler, Bosnia, Serbia, Somalia, Tibet, Darfour, The Massada (as far back as the Roman Era). Consider that it is the nature of the beast (ALL of them, including us), before you cast your moral superiority judgement on the country that affords your security against getting beheaded...

Jerome - how dare you inject relativism into the debate!

"torture is acceptable, even necessary, to achieve an objective, without moral compromise "

This would be more credible if it were not the common defense of the people from whom it is supposed to protect us.
Every evil monster that you use to justify torutre, used torture.

So, it comes down to "he started it" and "everybody does it".

Like capital punishment, the feelings run far ahead of the data.

Torture doesn't work (don't even bother with the ticking bomb and the terrorist in chains -it has never happened). Military intell agrees, the danger to our guys is raised far too high in proportion to any kind of useful info extracted by torture.

There was a time when the Us did not believe in torturing and teaching other nations to torture. In those days, we could still pretend to lead the free world, not bully, badger, and hector it.

OH MY GOD! VERY AGGRAVATING! I just lost a lengthy, near-perfect response for no apparent reason!!! It just makes me want to torture someone in the IT department!

;->

I think that you are missing my point. I am not using any of the aforementioned evil-doers as justification for torture. To the contrary, I am using them to demonstrate how it is the nature of the beast. I am not saying that since He did it, so can she, and they. No, my point is that throughout recorded history, since the dawn of man, I suspect, we have been doing just that - killing, raping, maiming, and *torturing* each other in a struggle to survive. In some instances, survival was defined by food, shelter, and the means to procure survival. While others, many far more recent, define survival through the use of a vehicle, money, in this case. Present day society is no less harsh, exacting, or ruthless than it was at the birth of mankind - when we clubbed each other for food, mating rights, a cave, watering hole, or some other expeditious means of survival. If you examine, very basically, the substance of this entire exercise, you will see very clearly, that torture, evil deeds (if you want to call them that), merciless and inhuman acts committed by one animal upon another - for survival's sake or otherwise - is the instinctive, base nature of the beast called human (classified under the phylum of animal, by the way). The fact of the matter is that today, we no longer measure our survival in terms of food, shelter, or the means to procure survival for one's own gene line. Rather, we can *purchase* the means by which we fulfill our genetic/biological purpose using a new-fangled thing called capitalism. AND, the closer you look, the more astonished you'll be to discover that capitalism is nothing more than a refined version of 'club-to-the-head-so-I-can-eat-and-procreate'. Instead of it being a contest of might, strength, or natural selectivity, we buy our way to immortality (or, was that immorality...same dif, right?). We purchase, by way of money, gold, diamonds, or some other limited, finite natural resource - OIL! - our survival, and strangle those who can not afford it.

The individuals I highlighted in my first comment simply demonstrate how the natural instinct to snuff the competition is still alive and well in humanity. Hitler, although extraordinarily evil, served a prolific purpose. Don't get me wrong - I am Jewish, and my 98-year-young grandmother still bears a tattoo from her internment at Auschwitz (she was liberated by my grandfather...an Italian Catholic - WHO KNEW?!); I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, admire or condone Hitler or his philosophy. However, I must point out that the function he may have served could be the same function that has allowed us to make the strides which got us here today. One may say that he cleared some of the space for the rest of humanity. Although he did so in an excessively evil manner, via torture, murder, enslavement, and many, worse, fates, he nonetheless paved the road upon which we walk today. The same can be said of any of the individuals I cited above - Idi, Pol, Joe, Ho - any of them. They all serve the same function that a forest fire would. Still, you must discern more clearly the by-products of the actions committed by those individuals. Through the use of forced medical experimentation on my people, Hitler laid the foundation for genetic research. Is that information, gleaned in such an awful, inhumane manner, latently evil? Is it inherently tainted by the means used to obtain it? To me, the answer is plainly and resoundingly NO. If we were to forbid the use of such information, we would not only dishonor those who perished in it's name, but also doing a disservice to humanity - if they had to die for it, in unspeakable ways too many to count, why ought it be in vain? And, in all honesty, I think Stalin was worse.

Yet, still, there are those who would deny the occurrence of such events - hmmm, what's the name of the Iranian PM? Simple, plain proof that we do NOT learn from our mistakes, as can also be seen in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Somalia, Darfour, Tibet, China (!), Chile, Venezuela, Micronesia, and the list goes on, and on and on...

The bottom line is that, regardless of any assumptions you try to make, regardless of any Immanuel Kant could make himself, there is but one driving force for humanity - some call it survival, others call it hedonism. No matter what you label it, self-interest, hedonism, survival, it is the root of all motivations for humanity. With that understood, you might be able to see my point a little more clearly - I am not condoning torture for torture's sake in and of itself, or justifying it through citing the extreme actions committed by a hideous few; I am simply saying that it is in the nature of the beast, and you can fight it all day long, it simply won't go away - there will always be the urge (in you, me, Mr. Prez, the Hitlers, Stalins, and Pol Pots, little children, grown and aging adults, EVERYONE) to survive and procreate, with an abundance of selfish egocentricity. And if that means the ruthless, brutal, inhumane extermination of another living being, or an entire race, so be it. The strong, brutal, ruthless, inhumane will do just that, morals or not (and I say not).

Delete,
It is the leadership I am disgusted with, that obsession for "absolute power" over the well being of innocent human beings, not the Marines who are really just pawns in the system.

It amuses me the way you go on about the issues of Western decay, since they are the very things that are being yammered about by the fundamentalist theocratic Islams. Talk about aiding and abetting. In answer to your list:

The wholesale murder of babies,

I will neither condone nor condemn abortion but I will talk about the murder that is going on right now of the thousands of people who have the misfortune of not being safe in the womb any more. Like say, the 19 Marines that were killed yesterday? What about all the families who have been wasted while they huddled terrified in their homes? Oh yeah, Bush declared today to be National sanctity of Human Life Day. Only if you are still in the womb.

A society where sexual orientation is the defining quality of all people,

Sexual orientation is the "defining quality" of homophobes, not the gay people who simply want to live ordinary lives. YOU guys are the ones who are making it such a big deal.

The assault on our religious freedoms because they make Liberals uncomfortable,
Religious freedom? Let's see, would that be like Theocracy, such as you find in the
Islam culture? And what religion to you wish to impose on the secular business of
public education? Your own? I thought so.

The conversion of our education systems into Liberal political platforms,

It's about time the truth was told to kids who are indoctrinated from the get-go
to believe that all our historical figures are "HEROES" starting with the slaughter
and exploitation of natives by Christopher Columbus.

The lack of political will to defend our borders and our nation,

If you would listen to what is going on, your wonderful president doesn't WANT us
to have borders any more. He has already signed our national sovereignty away which will take effect in 2010.. I can't help but laugh at you blind patriots who are worshiping the very source thatis about to level out ALL of the North American continent and you're still clinging to the fantasy that American Middle Class is special in the eyes of the Ruling Elite, instead of simply being seen as one more dumbed down member of the controlled
masses.

Lack of political integrity and unwillingness to consider the will of the people,

WHAT????? The will of the people? Is that like in ignoring the results of the November
election?????

The destruction of morality that's the real Liberal agenda.

There you go again. You sound just like a fundamentalist theocrat.


Also, it is interesting that your idea of how we are supposed to have risen higher
as primitive man progressed is in complete opposition to Jerome's point of view regarding the fact that there is absolutely no chance of mankind evolving to a more civilized plane.
You guys could have a discussion about that. The thing that irks me is that
cultures can HIDE behind the FACADE of doing something elevated, civilized and
moral in order to sell the gullible public on what they do, but in reality
they are being just as primitive and brutal and un-evolved as those they feel so superior to.

Another thing....please stop making me out to be a traitor just because I think that the leadership of this wonderful country is doing damage to it. To be complicit while observing the destruction of your country is treasonous.

Also, we're talking here about HUMAN RIGHTS, not sexual preference, not religious preference and not lifestyle. That's how you misled moralists always go after the small stuff and miss the real issues that are threatening our reputation.

The 19 volunteer Marines! Not brainwashed pawns, that is the theocrats we are fighting. I would rather you just say thank you on go on your way.

I know the Marines volunteered and I have complete respect and appreciation for what they feel is helping their country. I think they are being abused by the administration, but I still think they are wonderful. And yes, they are fighting against theocrats, or that seems like what you are saying. But when you go on about how we are supposed to let people's personal spiritual beliefs dominate our own secular activities, that too is an example of theocracy.

"Gay pride parade", not normal everyday American parade! I didn't name their parade, they did! I am not going out to a heterosexual pride parade; I am just going to a parade.

I realize the Gay Pride parade is ostentatious and doesn't give their cause a good name. They probably feel a need to make some kind of a social statement in order to offset the persecution they have always suffered at the hands of society. I am talking more about the simple Joes and Janes who just want to be a happy, secure, productive couple. I have no idea why that would bother you so much. If it does, I'm sorry but it is not something that the rest of the world would judge us about nearly as much as they judge us for our foreign policies.

You have no opinion of homicide? You have no opinion of genocide? These aren't much different than abortion (with some medical and moral acceptations that I can justify). Just birth control right?

Who said I have no opinion on homicide? I simply did not participate in the abortion issue. I went
straight ahead and wondered why is was okay to grind another, (25, this time) human beings
into a Murder Machine for the sake of saving face for an egotistical mad man.

Freedom of religion, not FROM, no one is trying to force religion on you OLGA, but you are definitely trying to "protect" yourself from ANY contact with it.

Protect myself from religion? My Dear, I am deeply spiritual. I would hope so, in this pathetic physical life
that we have to witness. I know my spirit is infinitely more than this cess pool. Perhaps its is because of
my spirituality that I protest the daily murder of so many innocent people for economic gain. And you
will notice, I am not expecting you to drop any of your secular activities and harken down to participate with me
in any kind of communication rituals to the God of my choice. Would you want me to say that
YOU were trying to protect yourself from MY religion??? These things go both ways and
that is the whole point I am trying to make all along.

Stolen election and other liberal myths just don't hold water. Ironic that Liberals cried, "disfranchise" of the black community but tried to block the count of historically Conservative military absentee ballots.

I said NOTHING about a stolen election. I said that the honest and official results of THIS
latest election, 3/4 of the population, are being totally ignored by the gentlman(?) who is
supposed to be hired to do the will of the people. Isn't that what Democracy is all about??
Isn't that what we keep getting crammed down our throats every time Bush makes one of
his pompous little speeches to snow us all?

As I stated, lack of political will to defend this country, both sides Olga, and that is in opposition to the will of the people.

The will of the people was already established in November. We ARE defending the country by
not wanting our dear leader to bankrupt us and cause more hatred, more retaliation, more
vengeance, more disruption, more of a threat to our security than he already has. (Bless his
heart.)

Fortunately Liberals seem to be loosing their ground in the education systems, turns out parents are disgusted by the force feeding of Gay awareness, anti-god agendas against their will. In higher education the stupidity of activist professors has caused a backlash against them and a resurgence of Conservative activities on campuses.

I'm sure the struggle will go back and forth between the two forces ad nauseum.

We used to be the moral high ground, but people like you, who will turn on their own service men in favor of the barbarians who kill us, profess indifference to the slaughter of babies, but condemn service men for defending life her and abroad, perpetuate political lies and half truths at the cost of brave soldiers. You are the problem.

We were a moral high ground because we had a constitution that we respected and
we were an example of humane treatment of both our own people, foreigners and even our
prisoners. (I thought.) And STOP saying I am turnin against servicemen. If anything, I am trying to protect them.

Your Liberal heroes intentionally offer no solutions to the Middle East problem because they fear loosing their power if their plan fails, that is gutless and costs real lives.

I have a solution. Let's get our butts out of there so that we will stop stirring up so much hatred and chaos and they can get on with the business of figuring out their own country. That's what Maliki is begging us to do. But of course, we can't let go of that oil deal.
You are talking about real lives being cost??? Are you reading the paper lately???

Wait a minute. Isn't that Abu Garab?

Good comment on human rights.

This is a story that needs to be kept alive. If evil is part of the nature of man, then it is a part we must overcome.

Let's hold ourselves to higher standards than those of our enemy. Otherwise, we are them.

The torture that you speak of "in Iraq" is not of the big bad Islam Iraquians, you know that don't you? The Abu Garab torture is done by the hands of your heroes. HA!!! Gotcha on that one.

Iraq is ALREADY in a civil war. That's why we should get out of there because we are just stirring up conflict between them that much more. We end up taking sides, we end up doing glorified ethnic cleansing even though we are simply trying to rout out "insurgents" (read..people who don't like their city taken away from them) and Shiite militias, who are hooked up with Sadr's army and many are trained by US soldiers as "security officers" first and then defect. Can't you see how we are making things horrendously messier than they already are? Haven't you read the blogs of marines who are over there? They all say the same thing, that more bodies isn't the answer because all of them are on "reaction mode" every second anyway from the crossfire going on. More bodies just means more targets. Why can't Bush just respect Maliki"s wishes if he is now the Prime Minister?

I'm not for Hillory either, and I deplore the way secrets are let out. I agree with you there. I have a map (from the internet of course) with all the war head storage places in the US and I live right next to one so at least I will go quick and that's just fine with me, because the big boys are hell bent in making it happen anyway.

Wait a minute. Back up a second. In your answer to Diane, you said something I agree with.

Hello everyone...I bow before you my master MISTERX so whats going on now MISTERX??? Hmmm whats going on here...someone with the name delete my profile huh..wow thats strange...play nicely kids

wasnt Iraq old mesopotamia??? where the annunaki landed??? Hmmm dont start onb me mate I got a fully loaded water pistol here

Oh dear. I have to think for a minute.

Okay. I realize how threathening the radical muslims are. And no, I don't want them NEAR my life. I don't even think most muslims do. And yes I do see the trouble they are causing in France, England and Australia to name a few. Now what is it I'm trying to say??

It's so complicated. Imagine if from the time you were a baby all you heard about was how your family, past and present and all your friends and their friends and your whole race and your country and suffered at the hands of a brutal imperialist invader?? Say this invader was very powerful, weapons-wise at least, and they could just drop bombs on you any time you disagreed with them and didn't let them take over on you and keep pushing you into deeper and deeper poverty and deprivation? And all your friends and family had to fight back with was your own fierce passion not to be owned, in the case of men, emasculated, ripped off, terrorized, and you would rather sacrifice your life than submit to this overwhelming force. Now think of the generation after generation that has not only been indoctrinated this way, but had tons of actual horrific experiences in suffering from this oppressive force in their own life and they are passing that too on to their children. Okay, sooner or later you get a band of millitants who aren't gonna take it any more. We already had plenty of those, including the Palestinians who have also been terribly abused by a stronger power. They were a real threat, but they were still being contained. Yes, I know 911 was hardly an example of containing their wrath, but I have ideas about 911 too which I won't go into right now.
Barbaric people, to me, are no different than dogs tethered on a chain who feel threatened, powerless and enraged at the same time so they go ballistic because they have nothing left to lose. That's what millitants are. They're horrible. The only reason we don't have to act that insanely brutal with our bodies is because we have our bombs. The devastation is still the same. We just get to stay cleaner and do more horrific damage.

This is getting all mixed up. I mean, that when we invaded Iraq, we made a lot of Arab people mad at us. Even the ones who liked us at first are mad at us now. I mean, what about the 400,000 Baath soldiers we took jobs away from? What were they supposed to do with all that raw, angry male energy, unemployed, that was wrapped up in being a soldier at one time? Of COURSE they are going to fight back.
You would too. If we had never needed oil we would not be over there schlupping around in their territory to begin with, insulting their national pride and making enemies and terrorists out of them. Now they have even a whole new generation with one obsession in the world and that is to annihilate us. If we keep pushing and pushing and trying to achieve world domination..(and please don't tell me that this is not the aim of our neocons and their New World Order) then maybe we would see a little bit of tension loosened up. You see what I mean? We are just on a collision course with doom. So yes. If we are going to keep invading and murdering and raping and humiliating and nuking them then yes, the whole damn WORLD can have my yard and that includes the US warmongers too. I'll end up in a Halliburton concentration camp soon anyway for my "dissent". I don't want to play any more. I'm outta here. And that's why I'm glad I live in such a strategic location for an instant exit. I have a nicer place to go to.

Delete - when you post I don't have to say a damn word. You've handled this all on your own. Enjoyed your posts.

Olga - can I have your property since you seem willing to give it all up?

Jerome and Delete , you have summed this up pretty good and I for one , agree, with what you post.

Don,
I doubt that you will have much use for my property OR yours if Bush keeps playing World Dictator. Do you really think that all the Ruling Elite are aiming for is "peaceful democracy" in Iraq? What good is containment to them? They need to CONQUER. You should read the PNAC documents. This whole thing for "New World Order" has been in the planning stages for decades. The neocons will find any way they can either to create a crisis or to encourage one in order to give themselves an excuse to attack.
They have no conception of the horror of war, they have never been hit by it directly. They simply lick their chops over being in control of one, and seizing absolute power. Remember, Russia has nuclear capabilities too. They will have to get sucked into this world war that Bush is pushing for, too. That is what I mean about opting out of this scenario if I end up having no choice over it anyway. I simply said that I'm glad I live near the most concentrated warhead facility of the entire nation so that I get wiped out quick. And this consequence would be NOT from the actions of a bunch of barbaric millitants but from the actions of my own country.

Olga,

You must be exhausted trying to genuinely enter into a debate with those who operate on such an "us" and "them" level. "You're either with us or agin us."

//Those people would have been much better off living under Taliban rule. The US sucks.//

Don, I recognize your theme song. Didn't you used to wear a flag?

So, it comes down to "he started it" and "everybody does it".


Yes Peter,

That's it; you've got it exactly right; you're learning. In the looney world of Bush and the crazies who support him and support unending war, it's ALWAYS the other guys fault. If it weren't for the Palestinians foot dragging their way along the roadmap to peace, there would be peace in the middle east. If the Iraqi's weren't so primitive they wouldn't have these sectarian differences, and we would never have had to go to take care of their oil for them. Silly.

I know, Missy. Thank you for your support. I don't know why I am trying to sway public opinion, the public apparently doesn't have any say over the whole situation anyway. But these people just don't hear me when I say that it is iin the INTEREST of our country to stop messing with people. I'm not talking about the tweaked out millitants. I'm not even talking about Ahmenijedad who is actually disparaged by the wiser council of Iran for being a mouthy hothead. I'm saying that there are quality, intelligent leaders of the Arab world who are willing to talk but still don't trust the US not to attack them anyway, and who can blame them? They are really TRYING to be patient with us. Syria is offering to help us right now and all we do is write them off as "arms suppliers" so that we will have an excuse to conquer them too. Oh well, you already know all that and thank God someone out there does.

Jerome F. You say: //I think that you are missing my point. I am not using any of the aforementioned evil-doers as justification for torture. To the contrary, I am using them to demonstrate how it is the nature of the beast. I am not saying that since He did it, so can she, and they. No, my point is that throughout recorded history, since the dawn of man, I suspect, we have been doing just that - killing, raping, maiming, and *torturing* each other in a struggle to survive. . .OH MY GOD! VERY AGGRAVATING! I just lost a lengthy, near-perfect response for no apparent reason!!! It just makes me want to torture someone in the IT department!//

Ah, you say it is the nature of the beast; are you also saying that some beasts are more perfect than others? Or, should we all just succumb to our beastly natures and the more deserving or the fittest will survive? If any of the latter is truely your perspective on human nature, then I don't think I want you in my corner or on my team. Not to worry, I will take care of myself; no sacrifices necessary. Somehow, from what I've read of Daniel Pearl I don't think he would agree with your views either.

Delete, you say: // As a former Marine who served in Guantanamo Bay, you comments deeply and irreparably offend me. "A throng of corrupt, greedy Neanderthal thugs?"

I and We are doing a difficult job of defending YOU, who give aid and comfort to our enemies. //


Delete: The good news and the bad news.

The good news seems to be that you are a "former" marine. I'm sure today's marines [post Rumsfeld anyway, or at least let us be hopeful for the future] are more enlightened and; if not, then it confirms the worst fears of many of us.

The bad news, is that perhaps you are still in the military and really are as bitter and disgruntled as you sound about the chore of having to defend people like us -- people with whom you are obviously at great odds.

The other bad news is that you think that people who disagree with you are traitorous or unamerican. I think people who feel as you do are "dangerous" to the best interest's of truly patriotic Americans and everyone else in the world. In order to deal with the bad guys, we need guys who have good heads on their shoulders. Fortunately for us, I believe that the vast majority of our armed forces are enlightened, educated and do not have the dark view of humanity that you and Jerome [and Bush and Cheney and others] seem to share. The huge irony is that you and at least some of those you were in control of at GITMO, share a similar world view in terms of how to control dark impulses and the dark side of human nature.

To elaborate on your mention of "the best interests of America", I was just now reading about our deployment of military gear in the Gulf.

[All this military gear is deployed in order to blockade two Iranian oil ports on the [Persian] Gulf and to start bombing Iran, possibly with nuclear weapons, as soon as Bush can invent a pretext to launch a war against Iran.]

[....economically, the U.S. blockade of Iranian ports would automatically stop the flow of oil from Iran, one of the world's major petroleum exporting nations, and will precipitate an international oil crisis. This in turn is likely to provoke a worldwide stock market crash and initiate an international economic recession. —But Bush doesn't care. —Saving face has no price in his mind. Besides, he enjoys playing war with America's large stocks of military gear, like kids like to play cowboy.]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/210107Tonkin.htm


Does that sound like we don't care about the preservation of our country?

"If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest."

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) 3rd American President

"I fully understand that they [the Congress] could try to stop me from doing it. But I've made my decision. And we're going forward."

President George W. Bush, (in an interview broadcast on CBS 60 Minutes, Jan. 14, 2007)

Mister X,

You couldn't be more wrong. Bush and Co. are making it up as they go along, and making it up in secret. However, Senator Biden made in very plain during Condaleezza's testimony before the Sen Foreign Relations Committee that the previous authorization "explicitly" prohibits the president from moving on Iran, or across the border into Iran. I didn't know that President Bush is liberal -- whatever that means. Mister X, I don't think you know what you're talking about -- are YOU making it up as you go along?

What Congress is planning to do now is pass a bill that would make them complicit
in nuclear war crimes if they did not stop him which would make them just as responsible for the nefarious results as if they themselves had intitiated it. It is comparable to them facing their own Nurenburg trial if they allow it. Nuclear countries cannot attack non-nuclear countries and it is obvious the nuclear weaponry is on the table for our leaders for back-up if they are going to undertake something so immensely consequential:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20070120&articleId=4525

AND WHAT IDIOT WOULD NOT THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE NEFARIOUS RESULTS?

I think we have a little bit of right to protest something that would affect our own personal lives so irreparabley and harmfully and I will spit in the eye, (on the screen) of the next person who says it makes us "un-American."

I completely agree with Delete. In fact, to go on reading this banter is useless. If this country is so morally repugnant, and it is due to the inability of the nation to define themselves, instead depending on our repugnant leadership (who defines society by their sexual orientation?!), move out. Go to Somalia or Afghanistan. We won't miss you, and there is not one iota of doubt that you'll last all of 15 minutes, if not less. Just remember, a skull and crossbones indicates a mine field, so watch your step (we don't have any of those laying around in America, right?) Repugnant...HA!

Jerome,

Perhaps you should move out; your rigid 19th century thinking is deleterious to the health of our democracy. You're the one who has a problems with everyone's morality and sexuality. Move to the middle east where they practice Sharia and really really persecute gays. And you're right, your rigid thinking, or lack of, is useless and a waste of everyone else's valuable and constructive time.

As for skull and crossbones and minefields, terrorists have plans to come here and have had and our being over there just hastens it and will make it worse. So, we all may have to watch our step, you included, thanks to the neocon screwups.

Mister X

I can read the constitution [I'll bet you keep it under your pillow because you like your "facts" don't you?], but the balance for the inherent power of a war authorization given to the commander in chief is "the power of the purse" [how ironic]. And then there are other legalities and irregularities that can be taken into consideration.

Missy W.:

1/23/2002:Journalist Daniel Pearl kidnapped (and murdered 9 days later) in Pakistan

I don't think he CAN agree (or disagree, for that matter) with my views. The omniscient geniuses you have so much faith in to govern themselves CUT OFF HIS HEAD ON TELEVISION. Does that mean anything to you? You ought to print some of your garbage and mail it to his widow and fatherless-children. Do you have even an inkling of what they would do to YOU for having the mouth that you do?! You would be STONED TO DEATH IN PUBLIC, per fundamentalist Islamic law. That's right. STONED TO DEATH. That DOESN'T happen here last I checked. Why? Because we ARE better than that! As much as that may surprise you, it's true! As far as I am concerned, it would be a more-than-intelligent move to drop 3,000,000 flyers over the entire region saying: "Drop your weapons, surrender to the US forces closest to you, and cede control of your nation(s) within 96 hours - or be nuked." And, it needs to be in Arabic, so they can read it. Then, give'em 96 hours. If they don't do EXACTLY as we say, F***'EM - nuke the entire area. It brought a VERY quick end to the biggest war in history, and it would have the same effect here. We haven't even heard a SQUEAK from the Japanese after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Why? They're STILL glowing in the dark!

You cast your light of illumination on us by remarking:

"terrorists have plans to come here and have had and our being over there just hastens it and will make it worse."

Did it ever occur to you that things AREN'T that way now because of what we are doing CURRENTLY in Iraq?! Did you ever consider that 9/11 happened ONLY ONCE?! Or that we DON'T have suicide bombers marching into Starbucks and screaming "ALLAH AKBAR" nanoseconds before they hit the detonator and explode themselves along with everyone else unfortunate enough to want a cup of coffee?! (if only you could be one of those poor bystanders...)

Moreover, you REALLY ought to pay closer attention. I quoted something somewhere else in gather, posted here, for your enrichment and convenience: a brief but prolific quote from Voltaire...

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." - Voltaire

Learn it. The way you respond to so many of the comments on this article (mine and so many others), I wonder if you listen to anyone at all! Or, even accept anyone who is not homogeneous (that means 'the same as') to your brand of fascism. Let me introduce you to a little Latin I learned in my undergraduate program (in USF - as in San Francisco; my masters is from NYU - O MY GOD! I MIGHT BE MISCONSTRUED AS A LIBERAL!!):

Ad Hominem - it is a fallacy that literally means "man attack", but usefully translates to the Fallacy of Attacking the Man, which YOU are so unskillfully attempting to engage. It is not a valid point, (i.e. fallacious; non-sequitor (that means doesn't follow); layman's term: off base, unrelated to the subject at hand) and your feeble attempt to trivialize my opinion (and others as well) is simply that - FALLACIOUS. Try using some real logic, STOP making assumptions, drop your preconceptions and prejudices, and listen more than you cackle (it *is* why you have TWO ears and one mouth, after all). [I was going to add 'SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE YOU F-ING IDIOT' to that last list of 'Things For Missy W. To Do', but I practice what I preach, so as much as I may disagree with your whacked out, spacey, right-wing, unrealistic, poorly formulated, unceremonious, bleeding-heart, idiotic, foolish, nebulous, AND MOST OF ALL, fallacious opinion, I would die defending YOUR right to express it, which I am fairly certain you would NEVER do, being a gutless, uninformed, seemingly uneducated, ignorant plebian - see, I can ad hominem, too, I simply choose not to - but that comes with god-given intelligence and plenty of ivy-league education, a couple of things you can not possibly have. BTW, I don't believe in any God you could possibly conceive of - in your tiny, itsy-bitsy, single-celled, amoebic excuse for a brain - I use the term for lack of something better...]

NEWSFLASH: Some of my best friends are gay. 19th Century rigidity? Try pragmatism and realism. I just observe and report. What planet are you watching this discussion from, and is there a technician to adjust your reception? If you can't intelligently respond with something more than your [poorly] preconceived notions of the world at large, ad hominem attacks, and weak assumptions, take your name-calling, insult-slinging, uneducated blather elsewhere - I said I'd die defending your right to freedom of expression, I DIDN'T say I'd put up with it. And, don't forget, wherever you go, anyone who isn't thinking like you ought to be executed. Just like your Taliban friends believed when they executed Daniel Pearl. You should be summarily executed the way he was...

Remember, like the parachute, the mind only works when OPEN - and you're dropping like a rock.

Why are you so eager to get blown up or wasted by fallout? I call that true devotion to a dictator and it reminds me of Jim Jones and Guyana in the 70's.
Yes, it is a horrible thing what they did to Daniel Pearl, it's a horrible thing that we do when we drop bombs on people all the time too. But what has either got to do with keeping this earth around a little bit longer so we can figure some things out?


"Despite Pentagon statements which describe tactical nuclear weapons as "safe for the surrounding civilian population",
the use of nukes in a conventional war theater would trigger a nuclear holocaust.The resulting radioactive contamination, which threatens future generations, would by no means be limited to the Middle East."

So, you think if it *has* to come to that, then we should use conventional weapons? Back to our old bag of tricks - mine fields that pollute the environment just as badly? Napalm? Agent Orange? Or, how about Kool Aide (Jim Jones style)? The way I see it, nukes are the most humane way of putting this entire "Crisis", as it is so often called by so many "Media Outlets" (e.g. CNN - Communist News Network, MSNBC - More Stupidity, Nonsense, & BullShit, or Al-Jazeera - [english translation: "Taliban Propaganda Network"], more...), finally to rest.

SOMETHING needs to happen, and they've been left to the task, unsuccessfully I might add, since before recorded history. My previous points made above are only independently strengthened by both the extraordinary duration (from our chronologically provincial perspective) of this conflict, and also strengthened by leaving you only one way to respond - your choices are down to Door #1: answer "yes" to my query at the beginning of this response. By doing so, you become the very thing you lambaste.

I know what the first thing that is probably already going off in your head reads like: "It's never that black-and-white, yes-or-no! Life is NOT binary! And, it doesn't HAVE to come to violence! There is an alternative..." But, you are wrong. Simply put, mathematics is the language of the Universe. Everything can be expressed mathematically, not matter what it's content or subject. We have discovered several laws that prove this Truth - Pythagorean Theorem, Laws of Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, Division, E=MC2, The Economic Law of Diminishing Returns, Supply & Demand, Ecological Sustainability, and many, many more. Sure, there's a lot left to *discover* (nothing, NOTHING has ever been 'invented', only discovered, but that's another thread), especially in terms of HOW we talk to the Universe, but it speaks to US mathematically all the time. And, it's comment is always positive or negative. The degree to which is mostly conjecture, but it nonetheless IS binary. Furthermore, that goes for the microcosom AND the macrocosm.

Although this is a wide-spanning response to your remark, it *does* have a certain conclusion. Everything ties together when you realize that not only am *I* the a-hole, but so are YOU! And him, and her, and them, and EVERYONE! We are all that a-hole at some time in life - someone ELSE'S a-hole. And, eventually, once you inflict enough bad karma upon yourself, which can be quantified mathematically, someone becomes YOUR a-hole, and you get the distinct pleasure of KISSING IT! Right on the brown-eye! Tongue and everything! A BIG WET KISS!

[NOTE: Most of us (I can speak only for myself) haven't a clue on how to arrive at this number; only a select few have reached that nexus - the greatest thinkers in history, whomever YOU think contributed to significant furtherance of humanity - Confucious, Prince George W. Bush, Abraham Lincoln, Ghandi, Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Jesus Christ, Mother Theresa, Moses, Pontius Pilot, Charles Keating, your dad, my mom, , etc. - and whomever they are, they have so far been unable to produce or reproduce the formula that they discovered. Apparently it is extremely rarified and fleeting.]

Ultimately, you have to know that taking a balanced, or even leaning on a considerate, approach to life will produce the fewest encounters with the a-hole and the most encounters with Mathematical Truth, when the Universe speaks to you, personally. Those Truths are good, and bad. The Truth is that we have to kill to survive. The Truth is we have to procreate (aka, make love) to survive. Those two Truths (which CAN, incidentally, be quantified mathematically, through a variety of techniques ranging from demographics, to the sciences of socio-economics to biology) mutually exclude any utopian ideas of global peace, or international peace, so far, at least. Accept the fact that it is in the nature of the beast, embrace it, and flourish.

[You have just inspired me to think far deeper into this, and write a consequential dissertation on this line of thinking - thanks!]

In a way then, we are programmed for obsolescence, just like the earth is because it can't sustain us forever, and neither can our physcial bodies. That's okay. That just backs up my metaphysical take on the universe. This isn't my real home anyway and it's not where I came from or where I'm going. I want to to go back to an environment that is at least as compassionate as I am, and that's what I plan to do. We volunteered as spirits to come to this "school of negativity" and take on the burden of condensed ions, thick, clammy flesh, limitations of time and space, incertitude, irreversable physcial consequences of our actions. We have done a noble thing really, because it has something to do with elevating our composite spiritual soup.
So yes, I turned 60 yesterday, the whole "doomsday clock" originated in 1947, the year I was born. That makes sense. I've had a good life. My son and I know eachother on the other in the spirit world anyway and have forever. Let's nuke. Get it over with. I'm ready to move on to a more enlightened level and I am glad I live 20 miles from the largest warhead storage in the states because I hate being physically uncomfortable as much as I hate being bossed around. I'm too good to be human. See you on the other side.......

I'm not sure, but I think Delete is a screen name for Dick Cheney. Or G. Gordon Liddy. What the --? All of a sudden this guy turns a political conversation into an abortion/gay rights argument? Well, isn't that what the extreme right always does? This guy needs to publish his own stuff, not hijack yours. Hmm. Maybe he's actually Karl Rove.

ROCK ON Delete! I agree 150%. I am, BY NO STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, a saint. Not even a great person. In fact, some have said, including several courts of law, my ex-wife, and others, that I am EVIL and should be put away! Well, I am not. I'm just an independent thinker.

I'm way late to this but I have to chirp here. First off torture; our definition of torture now apparently seems to include things (when I was a freshman) that are tamer than freshman rush at a popular fraternity.....Someone pointed out that torture is generally considered a very ineffective method of intelligence gathering as usually it leads the subject to say whatever it is the torturer wants to hear.....Ummmm just wondering but does anyone else besides me think that maybe, just maybe the CIA/FBI/Armed Forces maybe got that memo too??? Playing loud music and not letting someone sleep for extended stretches of time is NOT torture. It used to be called dorm life in college, but at worst it is annoying and discomfiting.......Sorry maybe we should fluff their pillows and put a mint on them when we turn the covers down for them.......Their in a military prison not the friggin Hyatt!!! Of course we absolutely should take at face value what a prisoner says, about just being on his way back from the inlaws to open shop, when he was grabbed for no good reason.......Our prisons are absolutely filled with innocent men.... Stop by one and see how many will admit what they did......

Jerome I admire your non-partisan, hard core analysis and largely concur. Generally speaking an insistence on seeing EVERYTHING in shades of gray is a hallmark of the left. While I disagree more than once in awhile with the right as well, at least they are, from time to time wiling to take a position. If you notice not one of the Democratic candidates proposes any viable plan for Iraq other than "Bush screwed it up!!, Let's pick up our tanks and go home!" There is absolutely no mention of the consequences of doing so. The Iraqi government just last week said they are not ready to handle their internal security yet and need us to stay.

As far as Olga's assessment of our impending blockade of Iran's oil ports.....I can only shake my head, as she elaborated on the consequences to the world economy and then proceeded to attempt to explain why our government somehow sees worldwide economic devastation as a boon......Trying to decipher her X-Files inspired comments makes my head hurt..... Jerome great comments and well explained....(I think) I might need to go back and reread my quantum mechanics for dummies book......